It's alot of words you've written but it's still simply based on guessiing - filled with a healthy dose of over-exaggerations One question: If all server merges mean shrinkage, does that mean the MMO marketplace for pretty much all MMO companies (excluding WoW and whoever makes EvE) is shrinking? Afterall, SOE isn't alone when it comes to merging servers and as I've pointed out numerous times now, this is more the norm then the abnorm for the industry.
Sure some games merge servers, but you do realize that the market is growing right? More players and more game companies are in the market.
Just because SOE is closing servers, doesn't mean the market is shrinking. It just means soe is losing its share of the market to other companies.
You can play word games all you like, but the reality is that the mmo market has exploded over the last several years. Both in number of games and number of players. The converse has happened to SOE. As the market grew, their customer base has shrunk and server mergers are the result of that situation.
Stop trying to rationalize soe by comparing it to other failing products in some wierd attempt to make it look normal.
You obviously didn't read what I posted. I'm not suggesting that the MMO market is shrinking. It was a rhetorical question based on the post I quoted that claimed that because SOE is merging servers that their market is shrinking. I'm not going to bother explaining it out word for word if you didn't understand it but maybe you should have another read at the meaning behind what I was posting
Personally, I think SOE just has a habbit of over guessing how many servers they need at launch and put too many up. That doesn't have to mean they're shrinking, it just means that they didn't grow to the levels they thought they would in that game. Of course, as I said, since netiher you nor I have any kind of numbers this numbers debate is rather pointless. Neither of us have any kind of insider knowledge to make such claims and both sides have bias' that are going to lead them to their own opinions - not facts.
Yes rhetorical, got it. However hiding behind a rhetorical questions doesn't mean a false statement isn't worth discussing. This is where I could return the "you didn't get it so I'm not going to explain it to you".
Like the facts you keep claiming don't exist, yet you seem fine making your own guesses. Even when the facts show you are wrong.
Let me show you:
Raph Koster is one of several developers who have openly stated a typical mmo server supports around 10k players and has 20% of its subscriber base online during peek hours. This was during his time with swg and again after he left.
SOE stated swg had over 300k subscribers after release. Somewhere around Dec 03 if I recall.
300k players for 25 servers = very dense populations on all the servers.
So yes there are numbers to support the fact that soe had enough servers to support the demand for the game. Another FACT is that soe had to add servers post release to handle the demand for the game. Adding servers means there was not enough servers. I played on one of those added servers and the population was huge.
I agree that soe keeps to many servers after they merge them. Just like they did in most of their games.
You trying to rewrite 6 years of history by saying that there were to many servers for the playerbase of the game is just plain delusional? You really want to say that the problem took 6 years to solve and it is not a result of loss of players?
Where are your facts? You want to point fingers at everyone else, why don't you post up anything to support your theories. So far all you seem to do is ignore everything and post ideas that have no merit or supporting data.
It's alot of words you've written but it's still simply based on guessiing - filled with a healthy dose of over-exaggerations One question: If all server merges mean shrinkage, does that mean the MMO marketplace for pretty much all MMO companies (excluding WoW and whoever makes EvE) is shrinking? Afterall, SOE isn't alone when it comes to merging servers and as I've pointed out numerous times now, this is more the norm then the abnorm for the industry.
Sure some games merge servers, but you do realize that the market is growing right? More players and more game companies are in the market.
Just because SOE is closing servers, doesn't mean the market is shrinking. It just means soe is losing its share of the market to other companies.
You can play word games all you like, but the reality is that the mmo market has exploded over the last several years. Both in number of games and number of players. The converse has happened to SOE. As the market grew, their customer base has shrunk and server mergers are the result of that situation.
Stop trying to rationalize soe by comparing it to other failing products in some wierd attempt to make it look normal.
You obviously didn't read what I posted. I'm not suggesting that the MMO market is shrinking. It was a rhetorical question based on the post I quoted that claimed that because SOE is merging servers that their market is shrinking. I'm not going to bother explaining it out word for word if you didn't understand it but maybe you should have another read at the meaning behind what I was posting
Personally, I think SOE just has a habbit of over guessing how many servers they need at launch and put too many up. That doesn't have to mean they're shrinking, it just means that they didn't grow to the levels they thought they would in that game. Of course, as I said, since netiher you nor I have any kind of numbers this numbers debate is rather pointless. Neither of us have any kind of insider knowledge to make such claims and both sides have bias' that are going to lead them to their own opinions - not facts.
Yes rhetorical, got it. However hiding behind a rhetorical questions doesn't mean a false statement isn't worth discussing. This is where I could return the "you didn't get it so I'm not going to explain it to you".
Like the facts you keep claiming don't exist, yet you seem fine making your own guesses. Even when the facts show you are wrong.
Let me show you:
Raph Koster is one of several developers who have openly stated a typical mmo server supports around 10k players and has 20% of its subscriber base online during peek hours. This was during his time with swg and again after he left.
SOE stated swg had over 300k subscribers after release. Somewhere around Dec 03 if I recall.
300k players for 25 servers = very dense populations on all the servers.
So yes there are numbers to support the fact that soe had enough servers to support the demand for the game. Another FACT is that soe had to add servers post release to handle the demand for the game. Adding servers means there was not enough servers. I played on one of those added servers and the population was huge.
I agree that soe keeps to many servers after they merge them. Just like they did in most of their games.
You trying to rewrite 6 years of history by saying that there were to many servers for the playerbase of the game is just plain delusional? You really want to say that the problem took 6 years to solve and it is not a result of loss of players?
Where are your facts? You want to point fingers at everyone else, why don't you post up anything to support your theories. So far all you seem to do is ignore everything and post ideas that have no merit or supporting data.
How about it?
I haven't posted guesses, I've posted my personal opinion. As I'm sure you're aware, an opinion isn't right nor wrong. I don't try and claim them as fact and I don't go around preaching numbers. I also haven't said your opinions are wrong, my posts have simply point out to you and those that treat them as fact they are infact guesses/opinions and not something that can be taken as fact. Unless you can show some hard, reliable evidence that what you say is 100% true then that is all it will ever be. I don't see how you're going to do this without SOE actually releasing that information.
The fact that you're asking me to present my "facts" shows that you're not understanding what I'm saying or simply ignoring it. I'm not excluding myself when I say that no one here is qualified to comment on the state of the company. All of us here have our own bias' that will interfere with the accuracy of the guesses we make. Basically, it's a pointless discussion.
I don't think it is pointless and I don't think playing games with words make it such.
Just because you want to play games with words and definitions doesn't make the relvent facts of the issue go away. You can "opinionize" factual events and then claim it cannot be proven wrong. You can't have an opinion that the world is flat for example, when it has been proven not to be the case. Taking the word opinion onto your claims doesn't mean it cannot be proven false, especially when there is evidence that does just that.
You have an opinion. I asked for you to present ANYTHING to support your theories. Facts, quotes, press releases. ANYTHING.
Right now people are posting relative facts as well as educated guesses based on the information at hand.
You offer nothing to refute those claims except word smithing, deflecting attention to other mmos and an opinion with nothing to support it. You are very slippey Obriak, but not that slippery.
I don't think it is pointless and I don't think playing games with words make it such. Just because you want to play games with words and definitions doesn't make the relvent facts of the issue go away. You can "opinionize" factual events and then claim it cannot be proven wrong. You can't have an opinion that the world is flat for example, when it has been proven not to be the case. Taking the word opinion onto your claims doesn't mean it cannot be proven false, especially when there is evidence that does just that.
You have an opinion. I asked for you to present ANYTHING to support your theories. Facts, quotes, press releases. ANYTHING.
Right now people are posting relative facts as well as educated guesses based on the information at hand.
You offer nothing to refute those claims except word smithing, deflecting attention to other mmos and an opinion with nothing to support it. You are very slippey Obriak, but not that slippery.
The world is flat vs round was a pretty poor example. It's a well proven fact from 100% known evidence that the world is round. Compared to this whole SOE thing, which there are no facts and only guesses made mostly by people here. Once SOE releases the information then you can compare this whole thing to the round vs flat argument Until then, yes, this remains opinion and not fact.
I don't think it is pointless and I don't think playing games with words make it such. Just because you want to play games with words and definitions doesn't make the relvent facts of the issue go away. You can "opinionize" factual events and then claim it cannot be proven wrong. You can't have an opinion that the world is flat for example, when it has been proven not to be the case. Taking the word opinion onto your claims doesn't mean it cannot be proven false, especially when there is evidence that does just that.
You have an opinion. I asked for you to present ANYTHING to support your theories. Facts, quotes, press releases. ANYTHING.
Right now people are posting relative facts as well as educated guesses based on the information at hand.
You offer nothing to refute those claims except word smithing, deflecting attention to other mmos and an opinion with nothing to support it. You are very slippey Obriak, but not that slippery.
The world is flat vs round was a pretty poor example. It's a well proven fact from 100% known evidence that the world is round. Compared to this whole SOE thing, which there are no facts and only guesses made mostly by people here. Once SOE releases the information then you can compare this whole thing to the round vs flat argument Until then, yes, this remains opinion and not fact.
Originally posted by Obraik The world is flat vs round was a pretty poor example. It's a well proven fact from 100% known evidence that the world is round. Compared to this whole SOE thing, which there are no facts and only guesses made mostly by people here. Once SOE releases the information then you can compare this whole thing to the round vs flat argument Until then, yes, this remains opinion and not fact.
You keep claiming the problem isn't population decline and there are no facts, despite the mountain of evidence that shows it is the result of loss of subscribers. You really do sound like the person saying the world is flat. You thumb your nose at all of the available evidence and pretend that everything here is just an opinion. It really is a good example.
We may not know the exact numbers, but that doesn't mean the truth is not being spoken. No one needs to show you exact numbers to accurately describe the effects and causes. I have shown you clear facts from events and the games developers that do show your "to many servers" opinion is in fact wrong. As expected you ignored that and shifted directions again.
Lets see what SOE has to say on the matter.
For example: the game developers themselves have been working for the last year to create tools to help players with "population issues" and "condense populations".
SOE has also said population levels dropped with the NGE and they hoped to get the game back up to pre-nge levels within six months. That is a direct reference to population drop.
When the company that runs the game says things like this, then yes it is a fact that population levels are down. I'm sorry, but the only way your viewpoint looks even remotely valid is if you flat out ignore the events that have transpired. Perhaps if you took your blinders off and actually read what has been happening you might see this.
When John Smedley openly talks about sunsetting the game, then yes it is heading in that direction.
I suppose you are going to say those are just opinions of the people who own the game right?
If swg isn't on decline then where are the paid expansions? There certainly was enough players prior to the nge to justify a steady flow of expansions, so where are they?
Where is the dev team going? SWG once had around 100 developers working on it. Where did they go? Why does soe keep removing devs from the team to work on other projects?
Other than you trying to sound like a warhammer fan with your "there were just to many servers, people aren't leaving" denial, what support do you have to oppose what anyone has shown or reinforce what you think is the true issue?
Originally posted by Obraik The world is flat vs round was a pretty poor example. It's a well proven fact from 100% known evidence that the world is round. Compared to this whole SOE thing, which there are no facts and only guesses made mostly by people here. Once SOE releases the information then you can compare this whole thing to the round vs flat argument Until then, yes, this remains opinion and not fact.
You keep claiming the problem isn't population decline and there are no facts, despite the mountain of evidence that shows it is the result of loss of subscribers. You really do sound like the person saying the world is flat. You thumb your nose at all of the available evidence and pretend that everything here is just an opinion. It really is a good example.
We may not know the exact numbers, but that doesn't mean the truth is not being spoken. No one needs to show you exact numbers to accurately describe the effects and causes. I have shown you clear facts from events and the games developers that do show your "to many servers" opinion is in fact wrong. As expected you ignored that and shifted directions again.
Lets see what SOE has to say on the matter.
For example: the game developers themselves have been working for the last year to create tools to help players with "population issues" and "condense populations".
SOE has also said population levels dropped with the NGE and they hoped to get the game back up to pre-nge levels within six months. That is a direct reference to population drop.
When the company that runs the game says things like this, then yes it is a fact that population levels are down. I'm sorry, but the only way your viewpoint looks even remotely valid is if you flat out ignore the events that have transpired. Perhaps if you took your blinders off and actually read what has been happening you might see this.
When John Smedley openly talks about sunsetting the game, then yes it is heading in that direction.
I suppose you are going to say those are just opinions of the people who own the game right?
If swg isn't on decline then where are the paid expansions? There certainly was enough players prior to the nge to justify a steady flow of expansions, so where are they?
Where is the dev team going? SWG once had around 100 developers working on it. Where did they go? Why does soe keep removing devs from the team to work on other projects?
Other than you trying to sound like a warhammer fan with your "there were just to many servers, people aren't leaving" denial, what support do you have to oppose what anyone has shown or reinforce what you think is the true issue?
So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
Originally posted by Obraik So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Originally posted by Obraik A guess is still a guess no matter how educated you think it might be. GCW and Player City charts are a glimpse but they can't be quoted as an accurate measure of the population as a whole when they're based on the activities of one playstyle in the game. The majority of my guild aren't featured on the GCW ranks because they choose not to PvP, for example.
Uh huh. Again dude, have at it, pretend it's all great! I know the truth.
Reality will hit you sooner or later, but until then, have fun and spend as much as you can to support the Devs. I wish they'd get their **edit** together...hopefully you can fund them long enough that even they eventually get it right.
PS...this is a great time to add additional accounts! Insta CL50 if you can get your "buddy" (*wink wink*) to join.
Originally posted by Obraik A guess is still a guess no matter how educated you think it might be. GCW and Player City charts are a glimpse but they can't be quoted as an accurate measure of the population as a whole when they're based on the activities of one playstyle in the game. The majority of my guild aren't featured on the GCW ranks because they choose not to PvP, for example.
Uh huh. Again dude, have at it, pretend it's all great! I know the truth.
Reality will hit you sooner or later, but until then, have fun and spend as much as you can to support the Devs. I wish they'd get their **edit** together...hopefully you can fund them long enough that even they eventually get it right.
PS...this is a great time to add additional accounts! Insta CL50 if you can get your "buddy" (*wink wink*) to join.
Originally posted by Obraik A guess is still a guess no matter how educated you think it might be. GCW and Player City charts are a glimpse but they can't be quoted as an accurate measure of the population as a whole when they're based on the activities of one playstyle in the game. The majority of my guild aren't featured on the GCW ranks because they choose not to PvP, for example.
Uh huh. Again dude, have at it, pretend it's all great! I know the truth.
Reality will hit you sooner or later, but until then, have fun and spend as much as you can to support the Devs. I wish they'd get their **edit** together...hopefully you can fund them long enough that even they eventually get it right.
PS...this is a great time to add additional accounts! Insta CL50 if you can get your "buddy" (*wink wink*) to join.
<Mod Edit>
But in the end, it hits them the hardest.
I don't think so in the end a new name and a new game to post about....
The so called "leader in the MMO industry" are starting to shut down games, servers, dev staff cutbacks, etc. My bets is Pirates of the Burning Sea is next on the list within a couple years- if not SWG.
As far as I know only 3 servers has a health amount of players; starsider, flurry and bloodfin and almost 40% of the population are on starsider alone according to a recent player city status chart.
The so called "leader in the MMO industry" are starting to shut down games, servers, dev staff cutbacks, etc. My bets is Pirates of the Burning Sea is next on the list within a couple years- if not SWG.
As far as I know only 3 servers has a health amount of players; starsider, flurry and bloodfin and almost 40% of the population are on starsider alone according to a recent player city status chart.
Last i heard from ppl still over there Bria and Chilly have about the same as Flurry,Nubfin edged out Bria for the #2 spot as alotta ppl tranffered to Starsider rom Bria and SS has about 2x the ppl as the the others top 5.Of course these are hard facts as we may never know them but it's an eductated guess by ppl on all these servers mentioned.
All of SOE's games have had server merges at some point and all but one are stil running. Of course, I guess this translates to SOE is shutting down?
Matrix Online?
Looks like you missed the "all but one" part in the post you quoted
Tbh I wasnt' sure if Matrix was the game you were referring to. I wasn't sure if it was closed yet, or if that was pending. Hence the question mark -_^.
However you or others want to spin this. Layoffs, server closures and a game closure do not bode well for SOE in my opinion. I also heard that some lead folks at the Agency bailed out. Do you want to try to spin all of these factors in some kind of positve way? If so, lemme get a coke lol, it should be an interesting read.
Originally posted by Obraik So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
Originally posted by Obraik Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
I see you still avoid any of the information already posted in this thread and have fallen back once again to "nothing can be proven as long as I call it an opinion and ignore it".
The world isn't flat obraik and sticking fingers in your ears will not change that.
Originally posted by Obraik So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers. There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
There's also observable reality, Obraik.
SWG has been in decline population-wise for years, due in part because of the misrepresentations, poor communication, poor implementation, and outright lies made by the developers, producers, and representatives at SOE.
Oh sure, you can claim otherwise and say I have no factual basis for what I just claimed, but trying to twist the observable reality of what did happen with doubt, or plausibility isn't necessarily valid.
SWG has been in decline due, at least in part, to the lies, distortions and bad implementation of the people operating SWG. And that's a fact.
The linear design is proof swg is decline. Thats what they do.
Since we're talking about NCSoft in an SWG thread I thought this was ok.
FACT: SWG is closing half of it's servers
FACT: From the early 1980s, when NZ was home to over 70 million sheep, the population has declined to around 39 million in 2008. This means the oft-quoted statistic, that NZ has 20 sheep for each human, is wrong! Nowadays it's only about 9 to 1. This decline hasn't stopped NZ from cornering 50% of all international trade in sheepmeat.
The linear design is proof swg is decline. Thats what they do.
Since we're talking about NCSoft in an SWG thread I thought this was ok.
FACT: SWG is closing half of it's servers
FACT: From the early 1980s, when NZ was home to over 70 million sheep, the population has declined to around 39 million in 2008. This means the oft-quoted statistic, that NZ has 20 sheep for each human, is wrong! Nowadays it's only about 9 to 1. This decline hasn't stopped NZ from cornering 50% of all international trade in sheepmeat.
Exactly.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Originally posted by Obraik So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
Lol, sometimes I think you must be a politician. People have talked about SOE as a whole and SWG specifically at different times in the thread.
I've always been of a mind that you'll post in defense of SOE (or SWG) no matter what. Any evidence that suggests real problems (with either) tends to be ignored. People have talked about devs leaving, servers closing etc. in SWG, and all you have to say is that none of this matters because people don't have an exact subscription count.
Is an exact count the only available evidence of a reduced population? Lol of course not. Servers get shut down because they are under-populated. It's that simple. Did you miss the summit where Smed promised server merges because people were complaining about low populations on so many of them?
In case you've overlooked this for some reason, a low population is an undesirable situation for an MMO. Tbh, I don't expect you to acknowledge any of this. I simply don't think a simple recognition of such things is in your game plan. What I'm really doing is calling you on your apparent denial. You can do with that whatever you like.
Originally posted by Obraik So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
Lol, sometimes I think you must be a politician. People have talked about SOE as a whole and SWG specifically at different times in the thread.
I've always been of a mind that you'll post in defense of SOE (or SWG) no matter what. Any evidence that suggests real problems (with either) tends to be ignored. People have talked about devs leaving, servers closing etc. in SWG, and all you have to say is that none of this matters because people don't have an exact subscription count.
Is an exact count the only available evidence of a reduced population? Lol of course not. Servers get shut down because they are under-populated. It's that simple. Did you miss the summit where Smed promised server merges because people were complaining about low populations on so many of them?
In case you've overlooked this for some reason, a low population is an undesirable situation for an MMO. Tbh, I don't expect you to acknowledge any of this. I simply don't think a simple recognition of such things is in your game plan. What I'm really doing is calling you on your apparent denial. You can do with that whatever you like.
Denial of what? I haven't talked about SWG specifically in any of my posts in this thread, my discussion has been in response to those making claims about SOE and as such, my replies have been on that topic. I haven't denied that this is proof that SWG's subscriptions have fallen over the years. I welcome you to show me otherwise.
Comments
Sure some games merge servers, but you do realize that the market is growing right? More players and more game companies are in the market.
Just because SOE is closing servers, doesn't mean the market is shrinking. It just means soe is losing its share of the market to other companies.
You can play word games all you like, but the reality is that the mmo market has exploded over the last several years. Both in number of games and number of players. The converse has happened to SOE. As the market grew, their customer base has shrunk and server mergers are the result of that situation.
Stop trying to rationalize soe by comparing it to other failing products in some wierd attempt to make it look normal.
You obviously didn't read what I posted. I'm not suggesting that the MMO market is shrinking. It was a rhetorical question based on the post I quoted that claimed that because SOE is merging servers that their market is shrinking. I'm not going to bother explaining it out word for word if you didn't understand it but maybe you should have another read at the meaning behind what I was posting
Personally, I think SOE just has a habbit of over guessing how many servers they need at launch and put too many up. That doesn't have to mean they're shrinking, it just means that they didn't grow to the levels they thought they would in that game. Of course, as I said, since netiher you nor I have any kind of numbers this numbers debate is rather pointless. Neither of us have any kind of insider knowledge to make such claims and both sides have bias' that are going to lead them to their own opinions - not facts.
Yes rhetorical, got it. However hiding behind a rhetorical questions doesn't mean a false statement isn't worth discussing. This is where I could return the "you didn't get it so I'm not going to explain it to you".
Like the facts you keep claiming don't exist, yet you seem fine making your own guesses. Even when the facts show you are wrong.
Let me show you:
So yes there are numbers to support the fact that soe had enough servers to support the demand for the game. Another FACT is that soe had to add servers post release to handle the demand for the game. Adding servers means there was not enough servers. I played on one of those added servers and the population was huge.
I agree that soe keeps to many servers after they merge them. Just like they did in most of their games.
You trying to rewrite 6 years of history by saying that there were to many servers for the playerbase of the game is just plain delusional? You really want to say that the problem took 6 years to solve and it is not a result of loss of players?
Where are your facts? You want to point fingers at everyone else, why don't you post up anything to support your theories. So far all you seem to do is ignore everything and post ideas that have no merit or supporting data.
How about it?
Sure some games merge servers, but you do realize that the market is growing right? More players and more game companies are in the market.
Just because SOE is closing servers, doesn't mean the market is shrinking. It just means soe is losing its share of the market to other companies.
You can play word games all you like, but the reality is that the mmo market has exploded over the last several years. Both in number of games and number of players. The converse has happened to SOE. As the market grew, their customer base has shrunk and server mergers are the result of that situation.
Stop trying to rationalize soe by comparing it to other failing products in some wierd attempt to make it look normal.
You obviously didn't read what I posted. I'm not suggesting that the MMO market is shrinking. It was a rhetorical question based on the post I quoted that claimed that because SOE is merging servers that their market is shrinking. I'm not going to bother explaining it out word for word if you didn't understand it but maybe you should have another read at the meaning behind what I was posting
Personally, I think SOE just has a habbit of over guessing how many servers they need at launch and put too many up. That doesn't have to mean they're shrinking, it just means that they didn't grow to the levels they thought they would in that game. Of course, as I said, since netiher you nor I have any kind of numbers this numbers debate is rather pointless. Neither of us have any kind of insider knowledge to make such claims and both sides have bias' that are going to lead them to their own opinions - not facts.
Yes rhetorical, got it. However hiding behind a rhetorical questions doesn't mean a false statement isn't worth discussing. This is where I could return the "you didn't get it so I'm not going to explain it to you".
Like the facts you keep claiming don't exist, yet you seem fine making your own guesses. Even when the facts show you are wrong.
Let me show you:
So yes there are numbers to support the fact that soe had enough servers to support the demand for the game. Another FACT is that soe had to add servers post release to handle the demand for the game. Adding servers means there was not enough servers. I played on one of those added servers and the population was huge.
I agree that soe keeps to many servers after they merge them. Just like they did in most of their games.
You trying to rewrite 6 years of history by saying that there were to many servers for the playerbase of the game is just plain delusional? You really want to say that the problem took 6 years to solve and it is not a result of loss of players?
Where are your facts? You want to point fingers at everyone else, why don't you post up anything to support your theories. So far all you seem to do is ignore everything and post ideas that have no merit or supporting data.
How about it?
I haven't posted guesses, I've posted my personal opinion. As I'm sure you're aware, an opinion isn't right nor wrong. I don't try and claim them as fact and I don't go around preaching numbers. I also haven't said your opinions are wrong, my posts have simply point out to you and those that treat them as fact they are infact guesses/opinions and not something that can be taken as fact. Unless you can show some hard, reliable evidence that what you say is 100% true then that is all it will ever be. I don't see how you're going to do this without SOE actually releasing that information.
The fact that you're asking me to present my "facts" shows that you're not understanding what I'm saying or simply ignoring it. I'm not excluding myself when I say that no one here is qualified to comment on the state of the company. All of us here have our own bias' that will interfere with the accuracy of the guesses we make. Basically, it's a pointless discussion.
I don't think it is pointless and I don't think playing games with words make it such.
Just because you want to play games with words and definitions doesn't make the relvent facts of the issue go away. You can "opinionize" factual events and then claim it cannot be proven wrong. You can't have an opinion that the world is flat for example, when it has been proven not to be the case. Taking the word opinion onto your claims doesn't mean it cannot be proven false, especially when there is evidence that does just that.
You have an opinion. I asked for you to present ANYTHING to support your theories. Facts, quotes, press releases. ANYTHING.
Right now people are posting relative facts as well as educated guesses based on the information at hand.
You offer nothing to refute those claims except word smithing, deflecting attention to other mmos and an opinion with nothing to support it. You are very slippey Obriak, but not that slippery.
The world is flat vs round was a pretty poor example. It's a well proven fact from 100% known evidence that the world is round. Compared to this whole SOE thing, which there are no facts and only guesses made mostly by people here. Once SOE releases the information then you can compare this whole thing to the round vs flat argument
Until then, yes, this remains opinion and not fact.
The world is flat vs round was a pretty poor example. It's a well proven fact from 100% known evidence that the world is round. Compared to this whole SOE thing, which there are no facts and only guesses made mostly by people here. Once SOE releases the information then you can compare this whole thing to the round vs flat argument
Until then, yes, this remains opinion and not fact.
I think even then you would defend $OE.
You keep claiming the problem isn't population decline and there are no facts, despite the mountain of evidence that shows it is the result of loss of subscribers. You really do sound like the person saying the world is flat. You thumb your nose at all of the available evidence and pretend that everything here is just an opinion. It really is a good example.
We may not know the exact numbers, but that doesn't mean the truth is not being spoken. No one needs to show you exact numbers to accurately describe the effects and causes. I have shown you clear facts from events and the games developers that do show your "to many servers" opinion is in fact wrong. As expected you ignored that and shifted directions again.
Lets see what SOE has to say on the matter.
For example: the game developers themselves have been working for the last year to create tools to help players with "population issues" and "condense populations".
SOE has also said population levels dropped with the NGE and they hoped to get the game back up to pre-nge levels within six months. That is a direct reference to population drop.
When the company that runs the game says things like this, then yes it is a fact that population levels are down. I'm sorry, but the only way your viewpoint looks even remotely valid is if you flat out ignore the events that have transpired. Perhaps if you took your blinders off and actually read what has been happening you might see this.
When John Smedley openly talks about sunsetting the game, then yes it is heading in that direction.
I suppose you are going to say those are just opinions of the people who own the game right?
If swg isn't on decline then where are the paid expansions? There certainly was enough players prior to the nge to justify a steady flow of expansions, so where are they?
Where is the dev team going? SWG once had around 100 developers working on it. Where did they go? Why does soe keep removing devs from the team to work on other projects?
Other than you trying to sound like a warhammer fan with your "there were just to many servers, people aren't leaving" denial, what support do you have to oppose what anyone has shown or reinforce what you think is the true issue?
You keep claiming the problem isn't population decline and there are no facts, despite the mountain of evidence that shows it is the result of loss of subscribers. You really do sound like the person saying the world is flat. You thumb your nose at all of the available evidence and pretend that everything here is just an opinion. It really is a good example.
We may not know the exact numbers, but that doesn't mean the truth is not being spoken. No one needs to show you exact numbers to accurately describe the effects and causes. I have shown you clear facts from events and the games developers that do show your "to many servers" opinion is in fact wrong. As expected you ignored that and shifted directions again.
Lets see what SOE has to say on the matter.
For example: the game developers themselves have been working for the last year to create tools to help players with "population issues" and "condense populations".
SOE has also said population levels dropped with the NGE and they hoped to get the game back up to pre-nge levels within six months. That is a direct reference to population drop.
When the company that runs the game says things like this, then yes it is a fact that population levels are down. I'm sorry, but the only way your viewpoint looks even remotely valid is if you flat out ignore the events that have transpired. Perhaps if you took your blinders off and actually read what has been happening you might see this.
When John Smedley openly talks about sunsetting the game, then yes it is heading in that direction.
I suppose you are going to say those are just opinions of the people who own the game right?
If swg isn't on decline then where are the paid expansions? There certainly was enough players prior to the nge to justify a steady flow of expansions, so where are they?
Where is the dev team going? SWG once had around 100 developers working on it. Where did they go? Why does soe keep removing devs from the team to work on other projects?
Other than you trying to sound like a warhammer fan with your "there were just to many servers, people aren't leaving" denial, what support do you have to oppose what anyone has shown or reinforce what you think is the true issue?
So now we're suddenly switching from talking about SOE as a whole to SWG? As you should have read, my posts have been in relation to the argument that has meen mentioned in this thread that SOE is shrinking. If you read through this thread, I haven't commented at all on SWG and whether it's shrinking or growing.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Uh huh. Again dude, have at it, pretend it's all great! I know the truth.
Reality will hit you sooner or later, but until then, have fun and spend as much as you can to support the Devs. I wish they'd get their **edit** together...hopefully you can fund them long enough that even they eventually get it right.
PS...this is a great time to add additional accounts! Insta CL50 if you can get your "buddy" (*wink wink*) to join.
Uh huh. Again dude, have at it, pretend it's all great! I know the truth.
Reality will hit you sooner or later, but until then, have fun and spend as much as you can to support the Devs. I wish they'd get their **edit** together...hopefully you can fund them long enough that even they eventually get it right.
PS...this is a great time to add additional accounts! Insta CL50 if you can get your "buddy" (*wink wink*) to join.
<Mod Edit>
But in the end, it hits them the hardest.
Farewell, beloved Intrepid.
This move is well overdue. You have just witnessed the beginning of the end of Galaxies.
Uh huh. Again dude, have at it, pretend it's all great! I know the truth.
Reality will hit you sooner or later, but until then, have fun and spend as much as you can to support the Devs. I wish they'd get their **edit** together...hopefully you can fund them long enough that even they eventually get it right.
PS...this is a great time to add additional accounts! Insta CL50 if you can get your "buddy" (*wink wink*) to join.
<Mod Edit>
But in the end, it hits them the hardest.
I don't think so in the end a new name and a new game to post about....
The so called "leader in the MMO industry" are starting to shut down games, servers, dev staff cutbacks, etc. My bets is Pirates of the Burning Sea is next on the list within a couple years- if not SWG.
As far as I know only 3 servers has a health amount of players; starsider, flurry and bloodfin and almost 40% of the population are on starsider alone according to a recent player city status chart.
Last i heard from ppl still over there Bria and Chilly have about the same as Flurry,Nubfin edged out Bria for the #2 spot as alotta ppl tranffered to Starsider rom Bria and SS has about 2x the ppl as the the others top 5.Of course these are hard facts as we may never know them but it's an eductated guess by ppl on all these servers mentioned.
Honestley they only need 5 servers at this point.
Matrix Online?
Looks like you missed the "all but one" part in the post you quoted
Tbh I wasnt' sure if Matrix was the game you were referring to. I wasn't sure if it was closed yet, or if that was pending. Hence the question mark -_^.
However you or others want to spin this. Layoffs, server closures and a game closure do not bode well for SOE in my opinion. I also heard that some lead folks at the Agency bailed out. Do you want to try to spin all of these factors in some kind of positve way? If so, lemme get a coke lol, it should be an interesting read.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
I see you still avoid any of the information already posted in this thread and have fallen back once again to "nothing can be proven as long as I call it an opinion and ignore it".
The world isn't flat obraik and sticking fingers in your ears will not change that.
There's also observable reality, Obraik.
SWG has been in decline population-wise for years, due in part because of the misrepresentations, poor communication, poor implementation, and outright lies made by the developers, producers, and representatives at SOE.
Oh sure, you can claim otherwise and say I have no factual basis for what I just claimed, but trying to twist the observable reality of what did happen with doubt, or plausibility isn't necessarily valid.
SWG has been in decline due, at least in part, to the lies, distortions and bad implementation of the people operating SWG. And that's a fact.
The linear design is proof swg is decline. Thats what they do.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Since we're talking about NCSoft in an SWG thread I thought this was ok.
FACT: SWG is closing half of it's servers
FACT: From the early 1980s, when NZ was home to over 70 million sheep, the population has declined to around 39 million in 2008. This means the oft-quoted statistic, that NZ has 20 sheep for each human, is wrong! Nowadays it's only about 9 to 1. This decline hasn't stopped NZ from cornering 50% of all international trade in sheepmeat.
Since we're talking about NCSoft in an SWG thread I thought this was ok.
FACT: SWG is closing half of it's servers
FACT: From the early 1980s, when NZ was home to over 70 million sheep, the population has declined to around 39 million in 2008. This means the oft-quoted statistic, that NZ has 20 sheep for each human, is wrong! Nowadays it's only about 9 to 1. This decline hasn't stopped NZ from cornering 50% of all international trade in sheepmeat.
Exactly.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
Lol, sometimes I think you must be a politician. People have talked about SOE as a whole and SWG specifically at different times in the thread.
I've always been of a mind that you'll post in defense of SOE (or SWG) no matter what. Any evidence that suggests real problems (with either) tends to be ignored. People have talked about devs leaving, servers closing etc. in SWG, and all you have to say is that none of this matters because people don't have an exact subscription count.
Is an exact count the only available evidence of a reduced population? Lol of course not. Servers get shut down because they are under-populated. It's that simple. Did you miss the summit where Smed promised server merges because people were complaining about low populations on so many of them?
In case you've overlooked this for some reason, a low population is an undesirable situation for an MMO. Tbh, I don't expect you to acknowledge any of this. I simply don't think a simple recognition of such things is in your game plan. What I'm really doing is calling you on your apparent denial. You can do with that whatever you like.
I didn't realize WE were talking about SOE. Saying WE in your statement really surprises me, because you have not really spent much time actually talking about the issue. You have spent a great deal of time trying to turn this discussion into a debate over NCSoft. How facts are actually opinions and nothing can be proven in this thread. How soe releases games with to many servers.
There are plenty of factual points brought up in this thread that do indeed show soe mmos are declining. I would be more than happy to discuss any of the information that has been posted here if you would like. Please go right ahead and pick some. Explain why it is not a fact and instead an opinion. At least try to address the points brought up instead of word smithing more derailment.
SWG is part of SOE and SWG is shrinking, just like all of their mmos. We can talk about the company as a whole or each of their games individually if you like. The results are going to be the same regardless, because their entire mmo base is shrinking. SWG is just one example of the companies overall performace. Showing that SWG is declining is also showing that SOE is declining. Why nitpick one example that supports the topic?
Let me know if you want to actually discuss the issues ok? I would love to see the rationale you use to formulate your theories and think it would make great discussion if you ever chose to join in.
Considering the words in the recent posts have been "SOE" and not "SWG", how could you not realise that the discussion has been about SOE as a whole?
I'd love to hear the "facts" that validate the majority of the claims here and I'd like to see your irrefutable evidence that shows how these facts are true. Hint: If I can argue a different point of view for the evidence you post then it's not irrefutable.
Lol, sometimes I think you must be a politician. People have talked about SOE as a whole and SWG specifically at different times in the thread.
I've always been of a mind that you'll post in defense of SOE (or SWG) no matter what. Any evidence that suggests real problems (with either) tends to be ignored. People have talked about devs leaving, servers closing etc. in SWG, and all you have to say is that none of this matters because people don't have an exact subscription count.
Is an exact count the only available evidence of a reduced population? Lol of course not. Servers get shut down because they are under-populated. It's that simple. Did you miss the summit where Smed promised server merges because people were complaining about low populations on so many of them?
In case you've overlooked this for some reason, a low population is an undesirable situation for an MMO. Tbh, I don't expect you to acknowledge any of this. I simply don't think a simple recognition of such things is in your game plan. What I'm really doing is calling you on your apparent denial. You can do with that whatever you like.
Denial of what? I haven't talked about SWG specifically in any of my posts in this thread, my discussion has been in response to those making claims about SOE and as such, my replies have been on that topic. I haven't denied that this is proof that SWG's subscriptions have fallen over the years. I welcome you to show me otherwise.
Welcome back Obraik. You've been a rare sight the last few months. Staying out of trouble?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Must have gone for a refill on the Kool-aid....