Why do MMOs have horrible AI

Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

Hack N slash or shoot em up games usually have you going up against droves of enemies which pretty much balances out for the level of their stupidity and they all try to rush bumfuck you on site no aggro range there. Why you think Left 4 Dead or God of War (fighting a bunch of giants the size of himalayan mountains..0o) are so popular.

 

Not like MMO mobs that run up to you once you've inconveniently entered their space and ask you for a spot of tea and a game of magic the gathered in which they always have the shitty deck.

MMO usually have you spending what feels like an hour killing one retarded dancing pink goblin, just so you can spend another hour sitting down to rest or drink up...and do it all over again for the 140,594,453,435,483,473th time...0o

And if you're lucky some MMOs or specifically classes will allow you to take on two retarded dancing pink goblins at a time and not just one....>>

 

Eben

Originally posted by Jackio81


and why is it no one seems to notice.
This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.
How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.
Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.
Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.
Some times you accidently pull more than one you have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion, and there have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  taken them all out by using auto attack.
So why is it......?
 

Um...because MMOs aren't hard?  Unless you equate time-consuming with difficult, that is. 

Kaisen_Dexx

You'll probably get a ton of theories on this. Some will be technical, some psychological, and others so far outside the box its probably up their ass. My favorite theory is that in recent years MMOs have tried to reach the broadest audience possible. And the more people you try to appeal to, the lower you have to go for that  common denominator.

Quizzical

Because they aren't creative enough to get past the tank/healer/damage dealer paradigm of an aggro system that demands that mobs behave idiotically. 

Tisiphone

I think there is a long list of cool, innovative features implemented in single player games (both PC and console) that have not moved to full-blown MMORPGs yet. I mean, compare 'Batman: Arkham Asylum' to any top-of-the-line AAA list MMO! I think that some of this is technical and monetary constraints, and some is trying to make the game simpler to appeal to wider audiences.

I strongly agree with the AI issue being one of them. Here are some others I can think of that would make the experience much more immersive:

- As you say, light and shadow as an effect to stealth and aggro. This has been used in SP games since like, the Thief series.
- Full-blown night and day. Sure, a few MMOs have added day and night systems and weather effects, but they don't impact NPC AI at all. In fact, compared to games like Oblivion, they don't affect much at all. Good luck stumbling around in the medieval dark.
- Climbing, acrobatics, and the associated animations. I mean, you can't do stuff in MMORPGs that Lara could do in the original Tomb Raider (what decade am I in, again???).

lethys

MMO's need easier mobs in order to make the grind less frustrating.  Plus the games have mechanics so that they function in a particular and controlled way.

Jackio81

Originally posted by lethys


MMO's need easier mobs in order to make the grind less frustrating.  Plus the games have mechanics so that they function in a particular and controlled way.

 

Yeah but this also makes the grind boring....I don't know how many times I've been lying in bed farming in an MMO in one hand while watching a movie and scratching my......in the other....XP

lethys

Originally posted by Tisiphone


I think there is a long list of cool, innovative features implemented in single player games (both PC and console) that have not moved to full-blown MMORPGs yet. I mean, compare 'Batman: Arkham Asylum' to any top-of-the-line AAA list MMO! I think that some of this is technical and monetary constraints, and some is trying to make the game simpler to appeal to wider audiences.
I strongly agree with the AI issue being one of them. Here are some others I can think of that would make the experience much more immersive:
- As you say, light and shadow as an effect to stealth and aggro. This has been used in SP games since like, the Thief series.

- Full-blown night and day. Sure, a few MMOs have added day and night systems and weather effects, but they don't impact NPC AI at all. In fact, compared to games like Oblivion, they don't affect much at all. Good luck stumbling around in the medieval dark.

- Climbing, acrobatics, and the associated animations. I mean, you can't do stuff in MMORPGs that Lara could do in the original Tomb Raider (what decade am I in, again???).

These are all single-player games with different mechanics, engines, etc.  None of these games support multiplayer, and a game needs to be designed in order to put these concepts in the game in a useful way.  Some of the ideas can be put in but you expect way too much.  I don't think you understand the amount of money, code, time, effort, manpower, etc. required into making an MMO.

 

Plus, a computer couldn't process a game as big as WoW with Arkham Asylum level graphics, tons of different movement options, day and night that affects how mobs move, etc.

Tisiphone

---

Originally posted by lethys
Originally posted by Tisiphone I think there is a long list of cool, innovative features implemented in single player games (both PC and console) that have not moved to full-blown MMORPGs yet. I mean, compare 'Batman: Arkham Asylum' to any top-of-the-line AAA list MMO! I think that some of this is technical and monetary constraints, and some is trying to make the game simpler to appeal to wider audiences.
I strongly agree with the AI issue being one of them. Here are some others I can think of that would make the experience much more immersive:
- As you say, light and shadow as an effect to stealth and aggro. This has been used in SP games since like, the Thief series.
- Full-blown night and day. Sure, a few MMOs have added day and night systems and weather effects, but they don't impact NPC AI at all. In fact, compared to games like Oblivion, they don't affect much at all. Good luck stumbling around in the medieval dark.
- Climbing, acrobatics, and the associated animations. I mean, you can't do stuff in MMORPGs that Lara could do in the original Tomb Raider (what decade am I in, again???).

These are all single-player games with different mechanics, engines, etc.  None of these games support multiplayer, and a game needs to be designed in order to put these concepts in the game in a useful way.  Some of the ideas can be put in but you expect way too much.  I don't think you understand the amount of money, code, time, effort, manpower, etc. required into making an MMO.
 
Plus, a computer couldn't process a game as big as WoW with Arkham Asylum level graphics, tons of different movement options, day and night that affects how mobs move, etc.

---

I know, that's why I mention technical and monetary constraints. Its sort of a "wish list" of sorts. Those features have all existed in the Single Player realm for over a decade, so we should be getting there eventually. Well, not the Arkham Asylum level. But I do hope we get -there- in my lifetime. ^^

Your answer covers the AI question quite succinctly, though.

Czargio

 Imagine the loading times of single player games. Now think of how small those levels are compared to the size an open world mmo. And remember that this needs to be running concurrently with thousands of players. 

Sure, better AIs and effects are out there, but for each npc to have AI other than stand here and give quest, or, wander around and whack players when they come close would be far too taxing on a server. 

Habnor

This question is easy...

Its a pen & paper turn based game created in a real time atmosphere.

You attack, the mob attacks, dice are rolled based on your weapon, and armor is what is deducted until one or other dies.

What do you want each type of mob to get massive random attack abilities or something?



Not sure what is dumb about it.. What are they suppose to do, jumping jacks?

 

nickelpat

I agree, MMORPG AI sucks although I put this to the fact that they do have to send many packets back and forth from one server for thousands of people, at the same time, I do think it could be done.

One example I can put forth is an MMORPG called Planet Calypso. The AI isn't terribly advanced, but it's a step in the right direction. In PC, when you attack a creatures, say it's a larger herbivore and it's roaming with a herd, the entire herd will come to attack you, at the same time, if you attack something like a worm, even if there are others nearby it usually comes at you alone, being they don't think as a collective group, like the aforementioned herd. Along with this, there are really no boundaries where the creature will stop. You can run forever trailing it, it only stops if it gets tired, I have noticed it tends to slow down before just stopping and running back. Or, if you have a creature that can't swim, like the herbivore I mentioned, you can drown it in the river. Granted you get no EXP or loot for this. 

Axehilt

This thread is yet more argument for instanced gameplay (where the casuals can be attracted by easy AI in the game world, and the experts can get their challenging AI.)

Either that or a system which makes the exact same enemies harder (like a slider that reduces your health/damage to make things harder, and gives you improved rewards as a result.)

My big gripe with MMORPG enemies is more ability and mob design.  I feel like players should get rock/paper/scissors abilities and mobs should advertise that they're using their rock/paper/scissors abilities which you can counter.   The simplest example of course being "I see the mob casting a spell so I interrupt it."

Honestly that's a big WOW strongpoint: reacting to opponents (and even to your own procs) means something.   I've played so many other MMORPGs where the gameplay is all about a rote rotation with no reactive abilities at all.

As for the AI itself, that's partially a result of open world gameplay forcing a lot of constraints of blandness onto how mobs work.  They basically abstracted aggro radius into a marginally fun game of its own, and the way radius works meshes well with the average player's ability to interact with 3D environments (because with realistic sight distances on NPCs, players would stumble into deadly ambushes all the time.)

Wraithone

Originally posted by Jackio81


and why is it no one seems to notice.
This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.
How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.
Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.
Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.
Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.
So why is it......?
 

 

Because general AI is one of the most difficult applications known to exist. In fact, its so difficult that no one has to this point managed to create one. There are hints at future applications to come in various sub fields, but at this time the best they can do is make the usual scripted/tiered system. But give the subject some thought. Do most people really *want* to deal with a computer opponent that adapts/learns faster than they do? That NEVER makes the same mistake twice, and is capable of thinking one to three steps ahead of them?  Some may say they are excited by the challenge. But that can get old FAST, when dealing with an intelligence on that order.  Once they do exist, the real trick will be to keep them from winning ALL the time.

laokoko

Because many gamers don't even want it.

It's not fun when critters run around like crazy for no apparent reason, call for reinforcement and pull an entire camp.  Darkfall is a good example.  It have good AI.  Some people like it, but I'm sure alot don't.

kdkirmse

The AIs in single player games are rarely very good either. A very common complaint is that the computer has to cheat to be competative. These AIs poor as they are take a significant amount of processing power. Combine the processing requirement with having to deal with a round trip delay of 100-500ms and writing such an AI becomes exceedingly difficult to support in a game.

One of the harder things for game developer to create is an AI which makes believable errors. An NPC that is all seeing and never makes a mistake is unlikely to be fun to play against.

 

 

midmagic

Because if they actually put AI, not the complex kiddie scripts FPS use, players would not stand a chance against the NPCs. The entire tank/heal/dps relationship would need some serious altertions to even make the AI worth implementing, primarily tanking mechanics and adding significant defensive abilities to everyone.

Jackio81

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Jackio81


and why is it no one seems to notice.
This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.
How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.
Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.
Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.
Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.
So why is it......?
 

 

Because general AI is one of the most difficult applications known to exist. In fact, its so difficult that no one has to this point managed to create one. There are hints at future applications to come in various sub fields, but at this time the best they can do is make the usual scripted/tiered system. But give the subject some thought. Do most people really *want* to deal with a computer opponent that adapts/learns faster than they do? That NEVER makes the same mistake twice, and is capable of thinking one to three steps ahead of them?  Some may say they are excited by the challenge. But that can get old FAST, when dealing with an intelligence on that order.  Once they do exist, the real trick will be to keep them from winning ALL the time.

Ummm, yes they do....I've already stated in my first original post that it's understandable that MMOs can't handle a better AI. But when it comes to the question of whether or not players want it is pretty obvious, as long as it isn't insanely hard that is.

Outside of MMOs, AI is the number one question asked about all games, and it's what's most in demand, it can make or break a single player game no matter how good the rest of the features are....my astonishment has been how no one ever brings it up when talking about MMOs.

Anyways after reading a couple of your posts, it's sounding like a couple of you are afraid of an MMO with a better AI to begin with....0o

Loke666

Originally posted by Quizzical


Because they aren't creative enough to get past the tank/healer/damage dealer paradigm of an aggro system that demands that mobs behave idiotically. 

 

Some people don't use that system, like Arenanet.

The OP is right anyways, the mobs are retarded. They should act more like people do in PvP instead.

It is time to get rid of the aggro system and boost the Ai up. No other games have this stupid AI, we still have the same dumb mobs we killed in Meridian and EQ over 10 years ago while the FPS mobs are a lot smarter.

Lazy devs is the real reason.

Loke666

Originally posted by midmagic


Because if they actually put AI, not the complex kiddie scripts FPS use, players would not stand a chance against the NPCs. The entire tank/heal/dps relationship would need some serious altertions to even make the AI worth implementing, primarily tanking mechanics and adding significant defensive abilities to everyone.

Uhm, only if players suck.

But yes, tanking is stupid. Ever seen anyone do that in PvP? Or in a real battle?

Bodyblocking works fine however and it shouldn't be easy to just pass an armored knight to get to the cloth user but the regular MMO system sucks.

Try playing Guildwars, there the mobs are trying to kill the easiest target they have any aggro whatsoever on.

Kaisen_Dexx

Originally posted by Loke666


Uhm, only if players suck.
But yes, tanking is stupid. Ever seen anyone do that in PvP? Or in a real battle?
Bodyblocking works fine however and it shouldn't be easy to just pass an armored knight to get to the cloth user but the regular MMO system sucks.
Try playing Guildwars, there the mobs are trying to kill the easiest target they have any aggro whatsoever on.

I dislike tanking too. And I hate in combat healing as well. I think its cruel. Poor guy is in the dragon's maw being chewed up, and right before he can finally be released from the pain some jackass brings him back to full consciousness just in time for the jaw to close again and again and again. Healers are assholes.

midmagic

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by midmagic


Because if they actually put AI, not the complex kiddie scripts FPS use, players would not stand a chance against the NPCs. The entire tank/heal/dps relationship would need some serious altertions to even make the AI worth implementing, primarily tanking mechanics and adding significant defensive abilities to everyone.

Uhm, only if players suck.

But yes, tanking is stupid. Ever seen anyone do that in PvP? Or in a real battle?

Bodyblocking works fine however and it shouldn't be easy to just pass an armored knight to get to the cloth user but the regular MMO system sucks.

Try playing Guildwars, there the mobs are trying to kill the easiest target they have any aggro whatsoever on.

AI, meaning the npcs would be on par to better than a human in playing capabilities not some lame script that most every game uses. AI, implies a learning algorithm. It would learn combos and what to do when those combos fail just like a player. It would learn them much faster (afterall it has a great deal more experience) and be capable of executing them without fail. A server side AI would also have the distinct advantage of no latency. It acts first. It knows exactly where the server says everything is. It has perfect timers for all cooldowns. It could do fun things like autostick to the enemies backside. No, a good AI would be quite difficult for a human to defeat.

Limitations on its abilities would have to be imposed for a human to win, the numbers would have to be quite stacked in favor of the player, or the game complexity would have to go through the roof which means that only a tiny number of humans could beat the AI. Most people have a hard enough time in games with good scripts.

Wraithone

Originally posted by Jackio81

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Jackio81


and why is it no one seems to notice.
This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.
How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.
Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.
Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.
Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.
So why is it......?
 

 

Because general AI is one of the most difficult applications known to exist. In fact, its so difficult that no one has to this point managed to create one. There are hints at future applications to come in various sub fields, but at this time the best they can do is make the usual scripted/tiered system. But give the subject some thought. Do most people really *want* to deal with a computer opponent that adapts/learns faster than they do? That NEVER makes the same mistake twice, and is capable of thinking one to three steps ahead of them?  Some may say they are excited by the challenge. But that can get old FAST, when dealing with an intelligence on that order.  Once they do exist, the real trick will be to keep them from winning ALL the time.

Ummm, yes they do....I've already stated in my first original post that it's understandable that MMOs can't handle a better AI. But when it comes to the question of whether or not players want it is pretty obvious, as long as it isn't insanely hard that is.

Outside of MMOs, AI is the number one question asked about all games, and it's what's most in demand, it can make or break a single player game no matter how good the rest of the features are....my astonishment has been how no one ever brings it up when talking about MMOs.

Anyways after reading a couple of your posts, it's sounding like a couple of you are afraid of an MMO with a better AI to begin with....0o

 

Damn straight I am!...  Afraid isn't quite the word... HORRIFIED is more like it. Why should I pay money to get kicked around by a general AI that learns/adapts faster than I can, has a perfect memory and understanding of strategy and tactics that is beyond even the best human genius?  I suspect you're not understanding what I mean by general AI.  In fact, we are all fortunate that its not been developed yet.

Death1942

tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

Design:  they are stuck in the basic tank and spank style of gameplay and so the AI must be made to suit this...that means little in the way of innovation or changes and it becomes easy to predict the AI

Money: costs quite a bit to get a decent AI programmer and they have to spend time touching up the AI for the game...time = money and if the current release state of games is any indication of how patient the investors/publishers are, i'd say they have 0 time to devote to extra AI stuff

those are the top ones i can think of, i am sure there are many more

Delanor

Originally posted by Death1942


tech:  They need to appeal to a wide range of computers and many simply dont have the processing power to run complex AI...hell some struggle just to load up the game in the first place

 

The Chronicles of Spellborn has an interesting AI for its humanoid mobs that does not require a top end computer at all. So I do not believe that processing power is issue here.

MIchael-333

Could MMOs be playable with realistic AI?

If MOBs were made to attack any hostile in sight, I'm picturing in any given area, a zerg of MOBs running around just wtfpwning any single player who passes by until someone much stronger shows up and kills them all, at which point there will be no MOBs in sight. Then the MOBs will gradually start spawning again, either being killed one at a time by people waiting eagerly for them to spawn or (if no players are in sight) amassing into another zerg. I just can't see how true 'kill on sight' AI could work.