Yawn, I come looking for info and get another tired thread.
No game of this type will ever be released 'finished', just liked no one will ever be born an adult.
This debate has been done to death. Please, either accept the nature of the product you are buying or go and do something else with your spare time.
And no, I'm not making an excuse for crap devs but I personally do not see this situation changing and have learned to live with it. Why these whiny, glass-half-empty gamers keep dragging this up I have no idea.
Some people make a point, but it's all been said and done so why are you still typing? Others are just spoilt kids who must find it hard to reconcile an imperfect world when they've been raised in a decadent western fantasy land where they are given everything they want. I mean, kids moaning that the graphics are poor, etc. You could feed a family in a third world country for a year with the money your part-time parents paid for that pile of circuits you just 'play' on and you moan that you're not getting this, that and the other. Tell someone who gives a sh*t.
Often it's so not the games that are the problem.
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner. If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period. I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems. The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way. No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have. With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do. An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this: Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are: 1. Contingency 2. Contingency 3. Contingency
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this.
You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question:
Why does the process have to be so flawed?
I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes:
1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns.
2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project.
3. Have contingency in place.
Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch?
I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that.
Your post makes no sense in the way that you are trying to present it. For one, the procedures are the same, as you say, /BUT/ the money to implement those procedures are not, resulting in disparate results between the two, which is my point. You are arguing that products that are sold to businesses should have the same quality as products sold to consumers, which we know isn't true in any realm of business. It cannot be because a business' requirements are different than a consumer's. Now, the argument about how this has to change then goes into the realm of how much would you pay for the privilege? Would you pay the $10000 a month that Bank of America pays to have a service contract with IBM over it's online banking platform that IBM is also developing? Or perhaps you'd pay the $15000 a month Etna pays Extream software for it's document management software tool, including support.
I say your argument is invalid because you get one or the other, not both. If you want better quality, then you will simply have to pay more. And in this environment where people pay $15/month with a little annoyance, how are you going to sell $100/month for none?
As to your other arguments, point 1 just shows you're an idiot. Businesses are not going to share /their/ trade secrets so that the consumer can have a better product. They won't work that way.
Point two will raise costs, which will then be transferred to the consumer. Also is the question of whether it is really needed. So far, experience shows us that 'no', it is not needed. You can rant and rave about how it might need to change, but in the foreseeable future, it's not.
And what contingency would you suggest? Again, it comes down to money. How much extra are you going to pay to have an uninterrupted gaming session? Businesses do what they do because consumers are fickle. You could have the best product in the world, but a consumer will still get bored with it, especially when there is no actual tangible product.
As far as lost sales and such, I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now and is probably pretty comfortable with the numbers. You're not selling anything here, and honestly, I don't think many people are buying.
Okay, so let me understand you because apparently you are God and I am an "idiot" as you put it. Here is what you're trying to sell me:
You cannot improve the production of a product through the review of your procedure, streamlining, thinking outside of the broken box, or make any improvements to product launch which would result in higher profits, more stable revenue, and an improvement in company brand....... without over-charging the f**k out of your customers.
I disagree. Over-charging for the product is NOT the ONLY way to make a product better. Innovation, process improvement, streamlining, and procedural advancement has made MANY MANY MANY PRODUCTS
1. Better
2. Cheaper to produce
3. More profitable
4. Cheaper for the consumer
...in every f**king market in this world. I know... I'm the idiot.... only money can make something better, not like... how you produce it.
You say that you cannot purchase or share valuable data between companies because that's just impossible, never going to happen and never has. Amazing, because I took part in EXACTLY this kind of transaction between the USPS/FedEx and HP/Microsoft. Information is money man, and it's for sale dude! Being a small biz owner, I know for a fact that I can purchase sales leads from other companies through brokers. I'd say Business 101 but it's more of a common sense thing. Apparently, common sense is NOT common in SOME of us. (not gonna say who!)
You say that hiring a project management group or a specialist in MMO launching will raise costs directly the consumer? Costs can be justified through profit and costs can be mitigated in many many ways. Let's not forget, selling something for...
$15/month($8/month profit) to only 100,000 people is not nearly as good as selling
$15/month ($7/month profit) to 1,000,000 even if the 2nd choice nets you $7 compared to $9 per month, per sub.
Here you say "I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now". Aside from the word "doubt" (which is prevalent in almost everything you say) the key word in that lousy statement is "now".
Your "it's all doomed and nothing can change it" attitude would never hold up in any real business environment and it's not holding up in here. Your posts should come with a "Debbie Downer" sound sample play button in each and every one of them.
No game of this type will ever be released 'finished This debate has been done to death. I personally do not see this situation changing it's all been said and done so why are you still typing? Tell someone who gives a sh*t. Often it's so not the games that are the problem.
Comments
Yawn, I come looking for info and get another tired thread.
No game of this type will ever be released 'finished', just liked no one will ever be born an adult.
This debate has been done to death. Please, either accept the nature of the product you are buying or go and do something else with your spare time.
And no, I'm not making an excuse for crap devs but I personally do not see this situation changing and have learned to live with it. Why these whiny, glass-half-empty gamers keep dragging this up I have no idea.
Some people make a point, but it's all been said and done so why are you still typing? Others are just spoilt kids who must find it hard to reconcile an imperfect world when they've been raised in a decadent western fantasy land where they are given everything they want. I mean, kids moaning that the graphics are poor, etc. You could feed a family in a third world country for a year with the money your part-time parents paid for that pile of circuits you just 'play' on and you moan that you're not getting this, that and the other. Tell someone who gives a sh*t.
Often it's so not the games that are the problem.
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this.
You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question:
Why does the process have to be so flawed?
I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes:
1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns.
2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project.
3. Have contingency in place.
Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch?
I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that.
Your post makes no sense in the way that you are trying to present it. For one, the procedures are the same, as you say, /BUT/ the money to implement those procedures are not, resulting in disparate results between the two, which is my point. You are arguing that products that are sold to businesses should have the same quality as products sold to consumers, which we know isn't true in any realm of business. It cannot be because a business' requirements are different than a consumer's. Now, the argument about how this has to change then goes into the realm of how much would you pay for the privilege? Would you pay the $10000 a month that Bank of America pays to have a service contract with IBM over it's online banking platform that IBM is also developing? Or perhaps you'd pay the $15000 a month Etna pays Extream software for it's document management software tool, including support.
I say your argument is invalid because you get one or the other, not both. If you want better quality, then you will simply have to pay more. And in this environment where people pay $15/month with a little annoyance, how are you going to sell $100/month for none?
As to your other arguments, point 1 just shows you're an idiot. Businesses are not going to share /their/ trade secrets so that the consumer can have a better product. They won't work that way.
Point two will raise costs, which will then be transferred to the consumer. Also is the question of whether it is really needed. So far, experience shows us that 'no', it is not needed. You can rant and rave about how it might need to change, but in the foreseeable future, it's not.
And what contingency would you suggest? Again, it comes down to money. How much extra are you going to pay to have an uninterrupted gaming session? Businesses do what they do because consumers are fickle. You could have the best product in the world, but a consumer will still get bored with it, especially when there is no actual tangible product.
As far as lost sales and such, I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now and is probably pretty comfortable with the numbers. You're not selling anything here, and honestly, I don't think many people are buying.
Okay, so let me understand you because apparently you are God and I am an "idiot" as you put it. Here is what you're trying to sell me:
You cannot improve the production of a product through the review of your procedure, streamlining, thinking outside of the broken box, or make any improvements to product launch which would result in higher profits, more stable revenue, and an improvement in company brand....... without over-charging the f**k out of your customers.
I disagree. Over-charging for the product is NOT the ONLY way to make a product better. Innovation, process improvement, streamlining, and procedural advancement has made MANY MANY MANY PRODUCTS
1. Better
2. Cheaper to produce
3. More profitable
4. Cheaper for the consumer
...in every f**king market in this world. I know... I'm the idiot.... only money can make something better, not like... how you produce it.
You say that you cannot purchase or share valuable data between companies because that's just impossible, never going to happen and never has. Amazing, because I took part in EXACTLY this kind of transaction between the USPS/FedEx and HP/Microsoft. Information is money man, and it's for sale dude! Being a small biz owner, I know for a fact that I can purchase sales leads from other companies through brokers. I'd say Business 101 but it's more of a common sense thing. Apparently, common sense is NOT common in SOME of us.
(not gonna say who!)
You say that hiring a project management group or a specialist in MMO launching will raise costs directly the consumer? Costs can be justified through profit and costs can be mitigated in many many ways. Let's not forget, selling something for...
$15/month($8/month profit) to only 100,000 people is not nearly as good as selling
$15/month ($7/month profit) to 1,000,000 even if the 2nd choice nets you $7 compared to $9 per month, per sub.
Here you say "I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now". Aside from the word "doubt" (which is prevalent in almost everything you say) the key word in that lousy statement is "now".
Your "it's all doomed and nothing can change it" attitude would never hold up in any real business environment and it's not holding up in here. Your posts should come with a "Debbie Downer" sound sample play button in each and every one of them.
(Click Link Below)
Above quote summarized in a single sound bite. (LISTEN TO IT HEAR)
I'll let the others view your broken logic and make their own conclusions. You simply don't understand what I'm saying and that is fine.