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Help me get into Bethesda RPGs
I'm a huge RPG fan and recently got a modern PC for the first time in years. Playing through Mass Effect and absolutely loving it. However, the other big two RPGs I've been aching to try - Oblivion and Fallout 3 - have left me less impressed. I can see that there's a lot to these games, and I know a lot of people absolutely love them and consider them to be two of the best games not only of current RPGs but of all genres and of all time. I *want* to like them but I can't seem to get into either of them enough for them to work their magic and hook me. In both games I've done little more than roll a couple alts, wander around aimlessly for a few minutes after the new character intro bit and then gone back to Mass Effect or some other game genre. I've come closer to falling in love with Fallout, but a few things bug me too much to get over. Maybe I'm looking at things the wrong way, maybe I need to give these titles more time and attention to get a payoff, or maybe Bethesda titles are simply not the games for me. I'd appreciate feedback based on my list of gripes/concerns/dislikes below.
To give some idea of what I *do* like, I love BioWare games (KOTOR, Mass Effect), I love oldschool SNES-era turn based RPGs like Chrono Trigger or FF3, and I tend to enjoy MMOs until the endgame, where advancement slows to a crawl and everyone has to play one of a handful of mathematically optimal builds to have any chance of success. I am very 'character-focused': what I enjoy most about RPGs is customising and enhancing my character to make him/her more unique and more powerful. Storyline, setting, game mechanics, etc. are all viewed through the filter of how they affect the process of playing the game to enhance my character. I like re-running zones, "grinding" mobs and the like, so long as it comes with rewards. If Fable were properly finished to live up to its gameplay promise, it'd probably be my ideal game: a dynamic sandbox to develop an epic hero. That's not to say I don't appreciate well-designed plot and scripted story events (I love Mass Effect, for example, which is pretty heavily plot-driven), but I like non-linear options to just run about and kill stuff, or start smaller side questlines, etc. For these reasons, I was hoping/expecting to fall in love with Bethesda's two big current-ish titles, but so far no such luck.
Without further ado, the things that frustrate me about Fallout 3, Oblivion and/or both:
-The combat engines. VATS is sweet. Targeting outside of VATS in Fallout is fine, although the apparent utter lack of non-weapons-based combat options (spells, special abilities, etc.) is disappointing to me - does the combat ever feel like more than a neutered FPS? Oblivion combat I heard such great things about, but frankly I find it awful. Swordfights consist of holding RMB till the enemy swings, clicking LMB real quick, then back to RMB for a couple more seconds? FPS-ish controls for melee combat have always seemed lacking to me, and as far as I can tell there's no way to parry, vary your sword thrusts or do anything else that would make having first-person control cool or useful. It feels like WoW auto-attack with an annoying arbitrary twitch-based routine thrown in for timing blows... At least magic is an option, but are all spells targeted with just crosshairs? It's hard to hit anything that isn't stationary, running straight toward you or very close. Magic seems like a slower version of shooting a bow. Am I missing some core aspect of Oblivion combat? Does it get a lot more interesting later on? Or do I just not like Oblivion for what it is?
-The "open-ended" game world. Don't get me wrong. I love the idea that I can completely ignore the main quest line and just go out and explore. The problem is, most of my blind 'exploring' in both games has consisted of TONS of empty space, one or two extremely easy battles with weak, lootless enemies and maybe a ruined building or two. Aside from doing all my "exploring" based on following routes I read out of an online guide, I don't see how to take advantage of this open-ness at all. Despite not really caring about either plot line yet, I feel myself gravitating toward the core plot missions anyway simply because I can't find anything else worth doing.
-The deluge of useless junk items filling the world! WHY does every cup, plate, etc. need to be an item I can pick up and take, with almost no cash value and apparently no use or interactive value in the game? Aside from being ways to grind with the annoyingly simplistic karma-type systems (stealing cups is a better way to be a 'bad guy' than committing murder? really?), what purpose do all these crap items have? It seems like they are supposed to add some level of authenticity or immersion, but unless SOMEONE in the game world interacts with them in some way, they have the opposite effect on me.
-Progression. Or lack thereof. I *like* the grind. I want to level up, become more powerful, get better loot and fight harder baddies. That feeling of making my hero just a little bit better with each passing mission or adventure is what hooks me to RPGs normally. I love Fallout's Feats system, although the default content has too many boring +skills/+stats feats. Oblivion's advancement system seems hilariously broken and poorly planned out. You have to micromanage which skills you use to get the maximum stat bonus each level? No feats or other interesting advancement decisions? You want to mostly rely on MINORS and avoid using majors except to level? It seems like actually trying to play Oblivion with any semblance of flavor, immersion, etc. is a sure way to gimp your character thanks to the convoluted advancement scheme. As for weapons and items.... I hear/assume/hope Oblivion has a more traditional scale of increasingly awesome magic gear to find later, but you start finding rocket launchers, flamethrowers and assault rifles in Fallout very early and then there's little to save up for or hope to find aside from ammo and parts for repairs. The post-apocalyptic survival-y setting where gear is about just getting by rather than building up to godly proportions sounded cool at first but quickly got old. It's not hard to keep working armor and weapons on my back; the only hard to amass thing is ammo. It seems like 99% of the fun of gearing up is removed!
Maybe Bethesda RPGs are just not my cup of tea, but I feel like I must be missing some aspects of both games for each to be so popular among gamers I normally share tastes with yet so lackluster to me. Fallout is fun to run around in because of the setting and ambiance, but I have little desire to actually play or advance in the game proper. Oblivion has found no excuse to even be launched again in days.
On a quasi-related tangent, if any of my descriptions scream of some other relatively modern title I haven't tried yet, I'm all ears.
Comments
You seem to be reading into the mechanics a bit too much.
When you play a Rpg like Mass Effect or Fable you just play. You start the game up and you follow the story and explore while your character gets better.
Oblivion and Fallout 3 are the same way. If you want more direction in Oblivion join a couple guilds, the arena and jump into the main storyline, Knights of the Nine and Shivering Isles content.
Like I said your reading into the mechanics a bit much, I don't give a shit about maximizing my attributes when I play Oblivion. I started the game up decided I wanted to play A Archer put on Light armor, used a Bow and 1 handed sword for melee and your classic Illusion and other thiefy magics.
I roam around looking for dungeons to plumder while working for the thieves and Darkbrother hood guilds and Do my once a week arena grand champion challenge.
I have over 500 hours in oblivion and I have yet to finish the main quest lol.
Fallout is the same, you walk around, do quests and once you feel bored stick to the main storyline. Don't put too much thought into the skill system level it naturally.
In these types of games your living in a world not just following a storyline.
As for the combat question Oblivion gets better later on. You train more spells, Marksmen get a cool zoom in sniper function and melee get to knock down enemies.
For Fallout its all the Vats system. use the weapon you like and skill up in it and watch heads explode.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I had similar thoughts when playing Oblivion.
Combat is flat out boring. Melee makes me sleep, archery doesn't really feel "authentic" (lacking a better word), and magic is bad as well , they all could use more diversity. I would suggest directional swings, momentum, and way, way more spells (even though you can create your own, I never felt overwhelmed by the options in any school of magic).
Even though it's nice to have an open world and all that, it was just way too much predictable. I'm not sure how to counter that, maybe random events? Exploring and cleaning dungeons is still fun, though.
The inventory system could have used a bit more of work, it's a mess when you have plenty of items. Also, more hotkeys would be welcome when you're a magic based character, for example.
Animations aren't very bright. When I first jumped after changing to third-person perspective, I acknowledged it would be wise to stick with the 1st person view for the rest of the game.
A number of quests are linear, going against the whole freedom aspect of the game.
I also enjoyed BioWare's games way more than Bethesda's (NWN was very good), but it got nothing to do with being linear/open ended really. I had a lot of fun with Mount & Blade, which feels way more sandbox than the Elder Scrolls series.
In short, I always thought Oblivion could have been way better than it actually was for me.
So OP, don't worry about not liking a game, don't let others dictate what's good or bad for you. I had my share of fun with Oblivion, but wouldn't consider it a top notch game myself.
^ Agreed. OP if you don't like the games play Bioware games.
I happen to love Bioware games just as much as Bethesda games and I'm still a big Square Enix fan.
I can't wait for Final Fantasy XIII.
I do think it's coo that we have a good amount of variety in sp rpg genre. From FF to Elderscrolls to Mass Effect to Borderlands its so different.
So many good games to play.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I had kind of the same feeling about oblivion for awhile, played it just a little and put it down for a year or more.
A friend of mine started playing it pretty big and got me to try it again. Basically you have to just put a good 10-15 hours into it ( IMO) to get a good feel for the game and the direction you wanna head. If after 10 or so hours played your not into either game then you probably just wont like em. But IMO give em a go and play a good bit past the tutorial and I think you may find a game you enjoy alot, I know I have enjoyed both of them very much and still play them regularly.
I agree with the comments made by metalhead980
also, about Obvlivium, the combat gets slighty more fun after a while
i hated fallout 3 it was a pretty terrible game
just use that stupid vats system and you beat the game
lol no complexity
oh and did i mention it's just oblivion skinned?
I could never get into FO3 as well, I find the game...boring..
But I do love Oblivion.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
@OP
IMHO you're better off with games Diablo like games (Sacred, Titan Quest, etc). They're open ended enough for you to do your quest as you please, but linear enough so you would have direction. There are no useless junk too.
I love the FO3, Oblivion, and even Morrowind, but sad to say, out of the box, they dont shine too much. Now as to make Bethesda RPGs more worth your while, I suggest you look into mods for the game. These range from changing the mechanics of combat, to making useless items have more uses. Some games completely change the whole game into something else.
I had so many friggin' mods loaded on Oblivion lol. Bethesda should pick up a ton of them and make them into an official pack for the game. If you do, I highly highly recommend the Arrow Forge mod, the Bone Grinder mod, the improved hotkeys mod (gives you hotkey rows using Ctrl and Alt), the one or the other of the "levelless" mods (where your stats just change and you don't "level" per se - much more fun that way) and one of the "big" mods like Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul.
Oh, and there's the Unofficial Obliviion Patch too, that's a must-have - over 1600 bugs fixed lol.
Go and get yourself "The Wicher Enhanced Edition" you wont be sorry. It is as good as ,if not better than the above mentioned games.
www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-full-the-witcher/27143
"The Witche 2 Assassins Of Kings" is on it's way..
www.youtube.com/watch
Then their is BioWare Dragon Age Origins..BioWare have made some good RPG,me personally,i think they are a bit overhyped but they are good.
The reason why you don't like these games is you have different expectations on what a RPG is than what the developers do. You like RPG's where character advancement is the main focus of the game. You like to level up, and geat progressively better gear and items. That sort of playstyle realling is catered to by hack n slash RPG's, like Diablo. I bet you liked WoW, because that game focused to your playstyle in an extreme way.
Bethesda's RPG's are centered around choice. They build a game world, populate it, add in a main story, some side stories, and let you decide what to do. Almost complete freedom is what these games are more about. It sounds like you're more interested in linear games, even though you like the sound of sandbox games. You probably like the structured environment of a linear RPG, like gaining levels to know you're getting better, and like progressively better gear, because it shows that you are better.
There's a lot to Bethesda's games that you only find through exploration. Sure, you can use a guide to shortcut the exploring and get right to the good stuff, but then you're missing the whole point of Bethesda's games. With that said, I've played and beat every one of Bioware's games and prefer theirs over Bethesda's. I've never actually beat a Bethesda game, but I do like the way they design their games. Biowares games are more linear, offer a good character progression system, has turn-based combat, and allows player choice in dialogue. Bethesda's games are more open, offer a sandbox character progression system, has twitch-based first person view combat, and allows player choice in when and how to approach the content in the game and the world that content is in.
I'd say Bethesda games are not your cup of tea. As for MMO's, I would deduce from this that you loved WoW and like games like WoW, where leveling up and gearing out your toon is the main purpose of the game, rather than games like pre-cu SWG, UO, and Darkfall, where the game is more about doing your own thing.
so there i went suggesting mods, but not which ones specifically. theres a lot actually, so im gonna shortcut and just link you to this informative list. theres also STALKER which has the sandbox feel, but the quests are more linear and no junk items. theres no grind however as you dont have stats. and the poster is in luck coz Borderlands is already out, its got most of what he's looking for. its like Diablo turned into an FPS, with a world that feels like Fallout.
Loved Morrowind.
Couldn't get into Oblivion (same old, seemed too easy)
Enjoyed and completed Fallout 3, pretty good game but not spectacular.
A problem I find in Bethesda games (new ones anyway) is that whilst they are fun and full of adventure they can become quite easy quickly, you soon find yourself unstoppable.
I didn't actually read that massive wall of text. But if I can make a suggestion, if you are unsatisfied with this crop of Bethesda games why don't you try an older one, perhaps.. Daggerfall
. If you can complete this game I will be genuinely impressed.
O_o o_O
In games like Fallout 3 and Oblivion, I always feel good perfecting my character to have all the best level ups possible... I probably wouldn't have played the games as much as I did if I just felt like beating the game and cared little if my armor was at 100 for instance.