Same old shit as in a simple game designed for mass appeal will be more popular than a more complex game even if the complex game is better.
Look at a watered down game like WoW, its fucking pathetic compared to the feature set of a game like Eve. Yet due to setting adn "Learning Cliff" Wow has 6+ million in NA/Euro while Eve has 300-350k on its one server.
Same old shit as in a simple game designed for mass appeal will be more popular than a more complex game even if the complex game is better.
Look at a watered down game like WoW, its fucking pathetic compared to the feature set of a game like Eve. Yet due to setting adn "Learning Cliff" Wow has 6+ million in NA/Euro while Eve has 300-350k on its one server.
Heh, so you're making comparisons to games like Eve? I think ToR may stay true to the last three words of MMORPG. It may not offer a massive amount of complexity, and I don't think it will have a "wide" appeal. I think the number of subs could be high, but not amazing high. To me Depth can equal Complexity. They both do the same thing in the end. Complexity will sort out the imbeciles with no attention span. A Deep Story will do the same. If anything this shoud be a game you should be pushing for. It's trying something new and exciting for themepark players. It's giving them a world that feels alive. Sandbox games do the same, but the players define it. Where ToRs living feel will come from characters changed by your actions through out the game. Compared to games like WoW or even Aion this game is in it's own catagory.
Watered down can mean many things, if you are saying accessibility, what's wrong with that? You have to understand, not everybody is the same. I can understand the joys of complexity. But some people just wanna jump in and start having fun. I can respect both sides. I don't mean this to be insulting, but I think you're being a bit narrow minded. You watched the videos and seen "class based heroic basic UI combat" right? Yet you have no clue about the way story operates, how/if space will be done, and exactly how complex it may be. In the end this is a bad comparison. Both will have appeal. Both will do something new for the genre, and neither is the same old shit.
Same old shit as in a simple game designed for mass appeal will be more popular than a more complex game even if the complex game is better.
Look at a watered down game like WoW, its fucking pathetic compared to the feature set of a game like Eve. Yet due to setting adn "Learning Cliff" Wow has 6+ million in NA/Euro while Eve has 300-350k on its one server.
Heh, so you're making comparisons to games like Eve?
I only use Eve as an example of how a game that is innovating the genre asn has a learning curve is basically unknown due to the playerbase only going for easier games.
I think ToR may stay true to the last three words of MMORPG. It may not offer a massive amount of complexity, and I don't think it will have a "wide" appeal. I think the number of subs could be high, but not amazing high.
Bioware has a intalled playerbase of near five million people that will buy anything with a bioware logo on it. It's going to be big atleast for the first month.
To me Depth can equal Complexity. They both do the same thing in the end. Complexity will sort out the imbeciles with no attention span. A Deep Story will do the same. If anything this shoud be a game you should be pushing for. It's trying something new and exciting for themepark players. It's giving them a world that feels alive. Sandbox games do the same, but the players define it. Where ToRs living feel will come from characters changed by your actions through out the game. Compared to games like WoW or even Aion this game is in it's own catagory.
I like what Bioware is doing with the pve in its game. It's a game im looking forward to.
Watered down can mean many things, if you are saying accessibility, what's wrong with that?
Accessible could be good and Bad. A game with a great tutorial that helps new players learn a game is great but when you look at a game like WoW that basically holds you like a child until max level it could be negative.
You have to understand, not everybody is the same. I can understand the joys of complexity. But some people just wanna jump in and start having fun. I can respect both sides. I don't mean this to be insulting, but I think you're being a bit narrow minded. You watched the videos and seen "class based heroic basic UI combat" right? Yet you have no clue about the way story operates, how/if space will be done, and exactly how complex it may be. In the end this is a bad comparison. Both will have appeal. Both will do something new for the genre, and neither is the same old shit.
I think im being misunderstood My post was saying its the same old shit due to the way the Masses pick games over another not the actual gameplay. How would I know how the games actually played to say its the same old shit on that level? All I know is what i've read on under the hood mechanics. STO has mroe of a Skill system Space/ground meta game while TOR is more of a pve centric game with a bit more attention to detal on that feature than other MMOs before it. So the entire thread is meaningless since TOR is more of a game for everyone while STO will be for core fans of the series/movies and players wanting a more complex type of experience. nothing wrong with either of them.
I think im being misunderstood My post was saying its the same old shit due to the way the Masses pick games over another not the actual gameplay. How would I know how the games actually played to say its the same old shit on that level? All I know is what i've read on under the hood mechanics. STO has mroe of a Skill system Space/ground meta game while TOR is more of a pve centric game with a bit more attention to detal on that feature than other MMOs before it. So the entire thread is meaningless since TOR is more of a game for everyone while STO will be for core fans of the series/movies and players wanting a more complex type of experience. nothing wrong with either of them.
I agree that they're a bad comparison.
Ah ok. I have seen you in a few threads talk about your dislike for most themeparks so I figured you was implying it here. My bad.
But yeah, odds are ToR will be the bigger of the two. That actually doesn't mean a damn thing though. SWTOR could suck, have a ton of people and STO could be a dream come true with a few thousand. Same scenario is already playing out. My hopes for ToR go beyond just the story. I want to see them merge story with PvP. That's high hopes I'll admit, but they're being very quiet about PvP which leads me to believe one of two. It's going to suck. Or it's something special. ToR has a lot going for it. Still a lot of unanswered questions to. Besides PvP my next concern would be about RMT. For me gear based RMTs are a deal breaker. This is something I suspect STO might have, look at CO.
I think im being misunderstood My post was saying its the same old shit due to the way the Masses pick games over another not the actual gameplay. How would I know how the games actually played to say its the same old shit on that level? All I know is what i've read on under the hood mechanics. STO has mroe of a Skill system Space/ground meta game while TOR is more of a pve centric game with a bit more attention to detal on that feature than other MMOs before it. So the entire thread is meaningless since TOR is more of a game for everyone while STO will be for core fans of the series/movies and players wanting a more complex type of experience. nothing wrong with either of them.
I agree that they're a bad comparison.
Ah ok. I have seen you in a few threads talk about your dislike for most themeparks so I figured you was implying it here. My bad.
No worries, I wouldn't be such a hater of themeparks if the story lines were on par with sp rpgs. Something TOR is promising so I look forward to it.
If your going to lead me around a game the story better be fucking fantastic and not just dumb kill or collection quests.
I don't give a damn about combat or whether it takes place on the ground with small fleshy things or in space with big metallic things. So, with that out of the way:
Both Star Wars and Star Trek are terrible science-fiction, the former more of a high-fantasy-in-space and the latter better termed pseudoscience-fiction (psi-fi?). If I hadn't grown sentimentally attached to them through my childhood, I'd hate them today. But I have, so I don't.
Anyway, I prefer Star Trek as a setting, since it at least tries, or pretends to try, to be science-fiction. I'll take bad pseudoscience over outright magic, frankly.
I also prefer STO for its visuals. TOR's style is too cartoonish and its graphics too primitive for my tastes.
Yet from experience, I have much more respect for BioWare as a developer, and I also far prefer the design of TOR, thus far, being what appears to be a long-overdue step forward into actual multiplayer RPG gameplay. Imagine that.
Star Trek Online
Setting: 5
Design: 7
Visuals: 7
The Old Republic
Setting: 4
Design: 10
Visuals: 4
Decisions, decisions....
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
I'm suprised this topic hasn't come up sooner. I've been a fan of both IPs since I was a little kid so I'm not going to try and say which is better. Both games look interesting and different enough from each other that they should have appeal to the fans of them. So far (and this is subject to change)it looks like STO will have an advantage for those that like to spend time in space as I have seen very little from TOR in this regard.Both will have a story with the TOR looking to have an advantage here seeing what they have done so far. STO will have the "captain's log" and mission briefings along with a skill based system(no levels) so I think for some it will just come down to which world you like playing in the most. There have been numerous Star Wars games over the years and I think the market might be starting to get oversaturated. Just how many more times will people be interested in playing a jedi? As of late, Star Trek games have been few and far in between and with the latest success of the movie I think there will be a lot of attention paid to STO.
While I would usually agree with you as I love Bioware's games and I am looking forward to SW:ToR with great interest I would have to point out that this is their first venture into the MMORPG genre. Add to this that although their particular talent at single player story lines is superb it has yet to be proven in a MMO environment. This is something totally new to the MMO genre and it could be hugely successful or it could bomb horribly... until we all play it we just don't know. Cryptic on the other hand are MMO veterans with two MMOs under their belt. CoX was a huge success like it or not and even though CO had a rocky start it seems to be bouncing back due to content releases and quick fixes by the dev team.
If these were single player games I wouldn't hesitate to agree with you that Bioware would own Cryptic but just that fact that they are MMOs make them pretty evenly matched if not giving a slight edge to Cryptic just because they have a lot more experience in this genre. I await both games and I truly hope that neither will disappoint.
I'm suprised this topic hasn't come up sooner. I've been a fan of both IPs since I was a little kid so I'm not going to try and say which is better. Both games look interesting and different enough from each other that they should have appeal to the fans of them. So far (and this is subject to change)it looks like STO will have an advantage for those that like to spend time in space as I have seen very little from TOR in this regard.Both will have a story with the TOR looking to have an advantage here seeing what they have done so far. STO will have the "captain's log" and mission briefings along with a skill based system(no levels) so I think for some it will just come down to which world you like playing in the most. There have been numerous Star Wars games over the years and I think the market might be starting to get oversaturated. Just how many more times will people be interested in playing a jedi? As of late, Star Trek games have been few and far in between and with the latest success of the movie I think there will be a lot of attention paid to STO. And for the record, I hope both succeed.
Hard to say, even the people over at WOW would tell you its a crap shoot. STO does look interesting, I more than likely will try out both games next year.
I never was a fan of Star Track. lol yeah I know but I like to piss people off by saying it that way. Star Wars always had a more interesting story to me and hell they have lightsabers so you can't go wrong there.
sto from what i heard has a skill based system and allows for full crafting and massive pvp tor sounds like a single player game that allows you to have a friend along every other day or so. mark my words sto will be pulling in millions tor will be lucky to hold onto 100k
I predict STO (if cryptic does it right) will have have around 500k at release and could go up to 800k a few months after. SWTOR with pre-orders and release I see about 700k-1mill players, if the game is good I could see 2-2.5m players months to a year after. STO could be the better game, but SWTOR will have more appeal. Star Trek has a big fanbase, but at the same time so does Star Wars, you also gotta count in BioWare and KoTOR fans in general. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
From everything I've seen, BioWare has a better grasp of the Star Wars universe than Cryptic has of the Star Trek universe. Nothing Cryptic has shown me conveys Star Trek -- oh, the skins are pretty and authentic, but that's about as convincing as SWG interpretation of Star Wars -- which is to say very shallow.
BioWare continues to impress me with their deep comprehension of the Star Wars mythos. The latest video on building Coruscant is just the most recent example.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
SW:TOR has Bioware on the job, (perhaps arguably?) the best RPG creator of all times, with Lucasarts, the story will take you deeper then the core of the earth. as you can notice im putting all my bets on SW:TOR
I am very much looking forward to playing BOTH games. However, I think TOR will definitely win out over STO.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Star Trek... I just think that the company behind TOR has a better track record for quality AAA games. Bioware is one of my very favorite gaming companies and I have thoroughly enjoyed every single game they have released since Balder's Gate.
Cryptic, on the other hand, is not so proven. I did not really like City of Heroes, despite many attempts to get into it. I also did not enjoy my time in the Champions Online beta. I worry that they are going to rely too much on procedurally generated content, rather than creating interesting and immersive story-based content. I don't have that concern at all with Bioware.
I am very much looking forward to playing BOTH games. However, I think TOR will definitely win out over STO. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Star Trek... I just think that the company behind TOR has a better track record for quality AAA games. Bioware is one of my very favorite gaming companies and I have thoroughly enjoyed every single game they have released since Balder's Gate. Cryptic, on the other hand, is not so proven. I did not really like City of Heroes, despite many attempts to get into it. I also did not enjoy my time in the Champions Online beta. I worry that they are going to rely too much on procedurally generated content, rather than creating interesting and immersive story-based content. I don't have that concern at all with Bioware.
i agree. Bioware makes amazing games with amazing stories. Im looking forward to TOR. STO looks nice too.
Bioware will make a solid product, no doubt about it. But will it be something new? Or are we going to get a (Very well made mind you) rehash of WoW in space?
STO seems to be trying to break the mold so to speak and it looks promising.
Comments
STO will be the better game, TOR will be as popular as WoW but it wont be as good or deep as STO.
IT's the same old shit really. The simple games have mass appeal while the more satisfying games are niche.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Like?
Like?
Same old shit as in a simple game designed for mass appeal will be more popular than a more complex game even if the complex game is better.
Look at a watered down game like WoW, its fucking pathetic compared to the feature set of a game like Eve. Yet due to setting adn "Learning Cliff" Wow has 6+ million in NA/Euro while Eve has 300-350k on its one server.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Like?
Same old shit as in a simple game designed for mass appeal will be more popular than a more complex game even if the complex game is better.
Look at a watered down game like WoW, its fucking pathetic compared to the feature set of a game like Eve. Yet due to setting adn "Learning Cliff" Wow has 6+ million in NA/Euro while Eve has 300-350k on its one server.
Heh, so you're making comparisons to games like Eve? I think ToR may stay true to the last three words of MMORPG. It may not offer a massive amount of complexity, and I don't think it will have a "wide" appeal. I think the number of subs could be high, but not amazing high. To me Depth can equal Complexity. They both do the same thing in the end. Complexity will sort out the imbeciles with no attention span. A Deep Story will do the same. If anything this shoud be a game you should be pushing for. It's trying something new and exciting for themepark players. It's giving them a world that feels alive. Sandbox games do the same, but the players define it. Where ToRs living feel will come from characters changed by your actions through out the game. Compared to games like WoW or even Aion this game is in it's own catagory.
Watered down can mean many things, if you are saying accessibility, what's wrong with that? You have to understand, not everybody is the same. I can understand the joys of complexity. But some people just wanna jump in and start having fun. I can respect both sides. I don't mean this to be insulting, but I think you're being a bit narrow minded. You watched the videos and seen "class based heroic basic UI combat" right? Yet you have no clue about the way story operates, how/if space will be done, and exactly how complex it may be. In the end this is a bad comparison. Both will have appeal. Both will do something new for the genre, and neither is the same old shit.
Like?
Same old shit as in a simple game designed for mass appeal will be more popular than a more complex game even if the complex game is better.
Look at a watered down game like WoW, its fucking pathetic compared to the feature set of a game like Eve. Yet due to setting adn "Learning Cliff" Wow has 6+ million in NA/Euro while Eve has 300-350k on its one server.
Heh, so you're making comparisons to games like Eve?
I only use Eve as an example of how a game that is innovating the genre asn has a learning curve is basically unknown due to the playerbase only going for easier games.
I think ToR may stay true to the last three words of MMORPG. It may not offer a massive amount of complexity, and I don't think it will have a "wide" appeal. I think the number of subs could be high, but not amazing high.
Bioware has a intalled playerbase of near five million people that will buy anything with a bioware logo on it. It's going to be big atleast for the first month.
To me Depth can equal Complexity. They both do the same thing in the end. Complexity will sort out the imbeciles with no attention span. A Deep Story will do the same. If anything this shoud be a game you should be pushing for. It's trying something new and exciting for themepark players. It's giving them a world that feels alive. Sandbox games do the same, but the players define it. Where ToRs living feel will come from characters changed by your actions through out the game. Compared to games like WoW or even Aion this game is in it's own catagory.
I like what Bioware is doing with the pve in its game. It's a game im looking forward to.
Watered down can mean many things, if you are saying accessibility, what's wrong with that?
Accessible could be good and Bad. A game with a great tutorial that helps new players learn a game is great but when you look at a game like WoW that basically holds you like a child until max level it could be negative.
You have to understand, not everybody is the same. I can understand the joys of complexity. But some people just wanna jump in and start having fun. I can respect both sides. I don't mean this to be insulting, but I think you're being a bit narrow minded. You watched the videos and seen "class based heroic basic UI combat" right? Yet you have no clue about the way story operates, how/if space will be done, and exactly how complex it may be. In the end this is a bad comparison. Both will have appeal. Both will do something new for the genre, and neither is the same old shit.
I think im being misunderstood My post was saying its the same old shit due to the way the Masses pick games over another not the actual gameplay. How would I know how the games actually played to say its the same old shit on that level? All I know is what i've read on under the hood mechanics. STO has mroe of a Skill system Space/ground meta game while TOR is more of a pve centric game with a bit more attention to detal on that feature than other MMOs before it. So the entire thread is meaningless since TOR is more of a game for everyone while STO will be for core fans of the series/movies and players wanting a more complex type of experience. nothing wrong with either of them.
I agree that they're a bad comparison.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Ah ok. I have seen you in a few threads talk about your dislike for most themeparks so I figured you was implying it here. My bad.
But yeah, odds are ToR will be the bigger of the two. That actually doesn't mean a damn thing though. SWTOR could suck, have a ton of people and STO could be a dream come true with a few thousand. Same scenario is already playing out. My hopes for ToR go beyond just the story. I want to see them merge story with PvP. That's high hopes I'll admit, but they're being very quiet about PvP which leads me to believe one of two. It's going to suck. Or it's something special. ToR has a lot going for it. Still a lot of unanswered questions to. Besides PvP my next concern would be about RMT. For me gear based RMTs are a deal breaker. This is something I suspect STO might have, look at CO.
STO will launch first, but TOR will sell far more boxes and most likely have far more subs.
Ah ok. I have seen you in a few threads talk about your dislike for most themeparks so I figured you was implying it here. My bad.
No worries, I wouldn't be such a hater of themeparks if the story lines were on par with sp rpgs. Something TOR is promising so I look forward to it.
If your going to lead me around a game the story better be fucking fantastic and not just dumb kill or collection quests.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I don't give a damn about combat or whether it takes place on the ground with small fleshy things or in space with big metallic things. So, with that out of the way:
Both Star Wars and Star Trek are terrible science-fiction, the former more of a high-fantasy-in-space and the latter better termed pseudoscience-fiction (psi-fi?). If I hadn't grown sentimentally attached to them through my childhood, I'd hate them today. But I have, so I don't.
Anyway, I prefer Star Trek as a setting, since it at least tries, or pretends to try, to be science-fiction. I'll take bad pseudoscience over outright magic, frankly.
I also prefer STO for its visuals. TOR's style is too cartoonish and its graphics too primitive for my tastes.
Yet from experience, I have much more respect for BioWare as a developer, and I also far prefer the design of TOR, thus far, being what appears to be a long-overdue step forward into actual multiplayer RPG gameplay. Imagine that.
Star Trek Online
Setting: 5
Design: 7
Visuals: 7
The Old Republic
Setting: 4
Design: 10
Visuals: 4
Decisions, decisions....
I'm suprised this topic hasn't come up sooner. I've been a fan of both IPs since I was a little kid so I'm not going to try and say which is better. Both games look interesting and different enough from each other that they should have appeal to the fans of them. So far (and this is subject to change)it looks like STO will have an advantage for those that like to spend time in space as I have seen very little from TOR in this regard.Both will have a story with the TOR looking to have an advantage here seeing what they have done so far. STO will have the "captain's log" and mission briefings along with a skill based system(no levels) so I think for some it will just come down to which world you like playing in the most. There have been numerous Star Wars games over the years and I think the market might be starting to get oversaturated. Just how many more times will people be interested in playing a jedi? As of late, Star Trek games have been few and far in between and with the latest success of the movie I think there will be a lot of attention paid to STO.
And for the record, I hope both succeed.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Oh, it sure has, but it's been a while.
Hmmm, 2364 people have voted for SWTOR, and 890 people have voted for STO, maybe this site should raise the posting quota before they can hype.
Bioware > Cryptic
My choice is obvious as well.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
While I would usually agree with you as I love Bioware's games and I am looking forward to SW:ToR with great interest I would have to point out that this is their first venture into the MMORPG genre. Add to this that although their particular talent at single player story lines is superb it has yet to be proven in a MMO environment. This is something totally new to the MMO genre and it could be hugely successful or it could bomb horribly... until we all play it we just don't know. Cryptic on the other hand are MMO veterans with two MMOs under their belt. CoX was a huge success like it or not and even though CO had a rocky start it seems to be bouncing back due to content releases and quick fixes by the dev team.
If these were single player games I wouldn't hesitate to agree with you that Bioware would own Cryptic but just that fact that they are MMOs make them pretty evenly matched if not giving a slight edge to Cryptic just because they have a lot more experience in this genre. I await both games and I truly hope that neither will disappoint.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Hard to say, even the people over at WOW would tell you its a crap shoot. STO does look interesting, I more than likely will try out both games next year.
Im gonna give both a go. I am looking forward to STO more, BUT really am jazzed about TOR. To me its a win win.
sto from what i heard has a skill based system and allows for full crafting and massive pvp
tor sounds like a single player game that allows you to have a friend along every other day or so.
mark my words sto will be pulling in millions tor will be lucky to hold onto 100k
I never was a fan of Star Track. lol yeah I know but I like to piss people off by saying it that way. Star Wars always had a more interesting story to me and hell they have lightsabers so you can't go wrong there.
I predict STO (if cryptic does it right) will have have around 500k at release and could go up to 800k a few months after. SWTOR with pre-orders and release I see about 700k-1mill players, if the game is good I could see 2-2.5m players months to a year after. STO could be the better game, but SWTOR will have more appeal. Star Trek has a big fanbase, but at the same time so does Star Wars, you also gotta count in BioWare and KoTOR fans in general. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
From everything I've seen, BioWare has a better grasp of the Star Wars universe than Cryptic has of the Star Trek universe. Nothing Cryptic has shown me conveys Star Trek -- oh, the skins are pretty and authentic, but that's about as convincing as SWG interpretation of Star Wars -- which is to say very shallow.
BioWare continues to impress me with their deep comprehension of the Star Wars mythos. The latest video on building Coruscant is just the most recent example.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
SW:TOR has Bioware on the job, (perhaps arguably?) the best RPG creator of all times, with Lucasarts, the story will take you deeper then the core of the earth. as you can notice im putting all my bets on SW:TOR
I am very much looking forward to playing BOTH games. However, I think TOR will definitely win out over STO.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Star Trek... I just think that the company behind TOR has a better track record for quality AAA games. Bioware is one of my very favorite gaming companies and I have thoroughly enjoyed every single game they have released since Balder's Gate.
Cryptic, on the other hand, is not so proven. I did not really like City of Heroes, despite many attempts to get into it. I also did not enjoy my time in the Champions Online beta. I worry that they are going to rely too much on procedurally generated content, rather than creating interesting and immersive story-based content. I don't have that concern at all with Bioware.
Both are great IP's playing Both...
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
i agree. Bioware makes amazing games with amazing stories. Im looking forward to TOR. STO looks nice too.
Bioware will make a solid product, no doubt about it. But will it be something new? Or are we going to get a (Very well made mind you) rehash of WoW in space?
STO seems to be trying to break the mold so to speak and it looks promising.