Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The grind hypocrisy
kamenwati
Member Posts: 168
I'll keep this short and simple. Why is
a) An experience grind (e.g. killing mobs over and over as the way to level)
BAD, but
b) A gold and item grind (e.g. killing mobs over and over as the way to make money and gain equipment)
ACCEPTABLE?
They are both achievement via a repetitive task, yet a) is vilified while b) is not.
Comments
Probably because with b) you get phat lootz. That being said I dislike b) even more than a).
THIS
You usually get to choose if you want to b) but not a), hows the survey going btw? Are you doing demographics as well?
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I hate them both. I don't want to have to do the same repetitive nonsense over and over no matter what the carrot is. If I can't stomach it, I stop playing and that's the problem with most games. The trick to having a non-grindy grind is to have a massive number of different things to do so that every time you log on, your experience is different. If you're just doing the same thing, going on the same quests, killing the same monsters over and over and over, why bother?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
None of those is acceptable.
Any of those you mentioned can be acceptable if its fun and entertaining.
Repetition without fun and entertainment can become a grind.
The problem is that nowadays MMOs stopped evolving the games into being fun and entertaining and instead, started to copy the overused formula of what initially provides fun and entertaiment.
The game mechanics they use, separate everything into levels/classes/areas, starting area/end game, and so on. This creates a threadmill effect in wich players must transverse to progress and eventually they would reach an "end". Normally such school of design decision comes attached with cheap solutions, like lack of content or investment into creativity, therefore, once players reach their "end game", the proposed (imposed since the start) goal is completed.
To prevent players from "finishing" it, they have to keep creating more content or use yet another cheap solution: artificially increase the game longevity.
In games wich evolved from everquest, the game longevity concept is how long does a new character takes to reach the "end game", wich is another concept itself that usually encompasses reaching max level and defeating/accomplishing the last (i.e harder) contents and activities.
As I said, to increase the game longevity artificially, they simply change the XP requirements for each level, or change the xp reward for each activity at their will or any other easilly tweakable value that doesnt take too much time, effort or development investment to do.
The problem is that such strategy has side effects, the biggest one is what came to be called "grind".
What initially would be considered fun and entertaining can also become a grind, all activities. (This is where your assumption is wrong)
Grind in a lato sensu would be any activity that is imposed or estimulated (anything that is present as a requisite for progress, either vertical or horizontal) by game design decisions that require players "time and effort", wich is not considered fun and entertaining (this last part is the subjective evaluative element)
To help you TS,
The grind hipocrisy as I see it is not from the part of players, but from the developers side: "trying to increase the game longevity artificially forcing activities not considered fun and entertaining".
Its not a paradox or anything complicated to understand. Its not impossible to solve either.
People think all games are like that, or that it would be impossible to do differently and that grind is a necessity and is excusable because "others games do the same".
Its very easy to solve the problem, just have to force your brain out of the contaminated everquest design philosophy of "everyone follows a determined path" and erase concepts such as levels, classes, endgame and many others. This only brings more problems than solutions: achieve an unachievable balance, deevaluating the journey rather than the destination, the impossibility paradoxal idea of "everyone is a hero", the strict focus on combat to progress... and many other modern problems derived from this school of mmorpg design decisions.
I don't get the impression players are that much more accepting of gear-grind vs. level-grinding. It's all grind.
"Grind" isn't a type of gameplay. There's no "gameplay vs. grind", there is just gameplay. "Grind" is a word players use to describe particularly repetitive gameplay. In other words, they've figured out the pattern of gameplay and the pattern hasn't changed recently, so it's "grindy".
Defeating mobs for hours with the exact same sequence of ability with no variation is excessive grindiness.
Defeating mobs with variation in ability usage, and periodically returning to town to turn in quests, and periodically doing non-killing activities to complete quests, all of these cause a game to feel less grindy.
Games have to balance how much variance they have though. A lot of the enjoyment in gaming comes from the sensation of mastering a skill, and if the game is constantly changing you won't get that. So it's a delicate balance of creating a core system which is fun, and then creating variations on that core pattern.
So what reasons might make gear-grind more acceptable than level-grind?
There are more reasons but none pop to mind at the moment.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
* you dont have to change your equipment as offen once you reach "end game", so it finally feels like "permanent" reward and "solid" ground.
Well, so far we've got the perfect repetitive crap going on in the background. Great ambiance.
The problem is, that's all the games turn out to be. There's no excitement or distraction from the grind except for the occasional loot drop. It looks like this on an interest plot: interest is on the y-axis, time is on the x.
|
|
| _ _
|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ / _ _
|_____________________________________________
Not very exciting.
This is a common "fun" interest plot:
| _ _
| _ _ _ / _
| _ _ _ _ _ _/ _
| _ _ _ / _ _ _/ _ _ _ /
|_______________________________________________
Games just need more exciting stuff to happen unexpectedly during "the grind." Exciting stuff that doesn't punish you.
Isn't killing mobs for gold and loot called "farming"?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you think your effort is sufficiently rewarded it is not grind, that’s the key to removing the grind. But at the top levels it becomes harder and harder to balance the rewards. So you need to expend a lot more effort for your rewards and a feeling of grind creeps in.
I sort of see where you're going with that, but I just keep imagining a "kill 10,000 of a specific mob" quest that yields a permanent +50% damage increase to my character. Insane reward, and probably time-effective for the ~80 hours you might invest accomplishing such a quest. But how could that not be described as a grind?
Only way it's not a grind is if combat is consistently enjoyable, which would be contingent on whether combat had enough variation. Because without gamevariation it's 80 hours of the exact same 30-second fight replayed 10,000 times, and that's going to seem like a grind despite the reward being worth it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I sort of see where you're going with that, but I just keep imagining a "kill 10,000 of a specific mob" quest that yields a permanent +50% damage increase to my character. Insane reward, and probably time-effective for the ~80 hours you might invest accomplishing such a quest. But how could that not be described as a grind?
Only way it's not a grind is if combat is consistently enjoyable, which would be contingent on whether combat had enough variation. Because without gamevariation it's 80 hours of the exact same 30-second fight replayed 10,000 times, and that's going to seem like a grind despite the reward being worth it.
This is true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There are other threads around about realism in MMO. Well, there is grind in real life...
I know the argument is generally "well, I paly a game to have fun, not to do the same boring things as in real life".
I guess the balanicng point is really the notion of fun: as long as you have fun, it,s not grind. Unfortunately, everyone has a different definition of "fun"...
I believe because gold and item grinding has an immediate benifit or sense of benifit and accomplishment, wheras Level grindings does not. When you get uber purple item after 3 days grinding you are elated. Compare that with 3 days of XP grinding where you go from Level 26 to 27 (with no new spells or abilities granted)
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Neither one of them is ok in my book. This genre needs a new look on progression.
meh. forget this post, WTB better E-plorz
Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos
Grinding in an MMO is the repetitive process of staying in a spot, or area, and killing the same NPCs until you reach the next level(s).
It reallys annoys me when people try to apply grinding to questing and farming. There is a difference.
Grind is a playstyle people put onto themselfs.
Example of what I mean by saying that it is a playstyle people put onto themselfs.
Let's say JOE pickes up a quest where he needs to kill 300 wolves, he already thinks that that it will take him some time, but eventually he goes out trying to kill those 300 wolves, makes him feel like he is grinding. Now I take the quest, read I need to kill 300 wolves and I think to myself good thing this is a MMORPG and I could kill perhaps a few today, perhaps some more tommorow/next week/month, I just stay clear from repetitive tasks, not sure why people do that to themselfs and yet will complain about it as if it's the games fault for their limited playstyle.
So in short if people have fun with A so be it, games are played to have fun aint they? If people have fun with B then also good.
Scientifically speaking: Fun is "polite" distraction and variation in ambiance that retains one's curiosity and suspension of disbelief.
Essentially, fun can be plotted on a graph with Interest / Time. Fun is measuring one's Interest in the subject in terms of Time. Variation in ambiance creates interest through curiosity. Too much variation shatters suspension of disbelief, too little fails to pique curiosity; both phenomenons cause interest to fall over time.
What is "too much" or "too little" variation? That's the subjective nature of fun - every person has different experiences that dictate their preferred interest curves (amount of variation over time) as well as what may be considered variation or not.
Comedians, musicians, magicians, artists, writers, actors, etc. all use this as a basis of their styles of entertainment, whether they know it or not.
Just saying, everyone has the same definition of fun, they just call it different things. "A rose by any other name..."
I just love that we are even able to have this kind of topic about gaming. I used to know people that would play Pac-Man (or any other popular video game) for hours and hours and hours. Talk about a repetitive task with no variation!
As usual Axehilt nailed it with his comments about variation. I bet you could take almost any complaint about a grind in any game and simply translate what they are saying into 'lack of variation'.
There are tons of things that can add variation to the gameplay.
There must be a ton more of these. If a game has too few of these or can't properly balance them then it can feel grindy fast.
The difference is whether it is boring or not. Loot can be just as much of a grind if you make it too rare.
What you call variation may as well be static ambiance to someone else, and what looks to you like mindless repetition may be variation to another.
The interpretation comes in where the person's mind is concentrating. Their "mental zoom level" if you will. If they're concentrating on the smallest fractal-on-a-fraction of the activity, they'll think that the slightest bump in the road is variation and therefor entertaining. If they're concentrating on the bigger picture of the activity, however, what once may have seemed jagged and greatly varied suddenly looks like a flat line and becomes boring.
As we age and have more experiences through life, our minds "zoom out" to encapsulate as many of [those experiences] at once as possible. Unfortunately, when we re-examine old things we used to think were fun when we were young, they become comparatively boring and meaningless in the bigger picture of our more mature minds.
A person with many varied experiences will not appreciate simple games. Likewise, a person with a very linear life experience may not enjoy an activity that requires a wide spectrum of thought.
Plasuma is a genius.
Well the fundamental formula for fun is pattern discovery. The reason those simple patterns of our youth aren't fun anymore is there's no more discovery left. It's been discovered.
Viewing this as "zooming out of a fractal" is accurate I suppose, except for some impression that the bigger pattern will always be a conglomorate of all the little patterns, becaues that won't always be true. The idea of the bigger pattern sometimes being near-identical to a smaller pattern is accurate, but again: there are plenty of new patterns around whe you 'zoom out'.
Definitely an interesting take on the subject though. The fractal comment gets me thinking about things (:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes.
When you recognize a pattern, it becomes ambiance to you. It cancels out.
Think of this like noise-canceling headphones: they record exterior noise and flip the pattern approximation, then play that flipped pattern into the sound you're listening to, which has a canceling effect (the waves make "white noise" when combined, and don't affect your listening).
You could say that your brain records a "flipped version" of the discovered pattern. So when you experience it again, it's more familiar and "ambient."
So the problem we're actually faced with is "what is worth discovering?" it's not as simple as "what would players want to discover?" it's more of "why would a player bother trying to discover something?"
The answer is distraction. When you distract somebody away from ambiance (and what their brain has previous recorded), you make them curious so they want to discover something. Why are magic shows entertaining?
The magician holds out his hands to silence the audience. He waits a moment (dramatic pause) and brushes himself off. "He's wearing a very tight suit, so he can't be hiding anything," you think. He's finished stalling - he stomps once, loudly on the stage and the exciting music blares. He stands ominously as the lights dim and the stagehands bring out the props... then he abruptly flips backwards - and when he recovers, he's holding his pretty assistant in his arms. You swear she appeared in his arms out of nowhere!
That's an impressive trick... let's hope he can top it.
How the trick worked:: you were distracted from what really went on, you were made curious by the uncanny gestures and stage props, and you began the process of discovery. You concentrated on the action: he did a back-flip... but something other than what you expected happened - perhaps you were skeptical, perhaps you expected something familiar - either way, what happened was a surprise. That was interesting.
But you're sure there's something else to it. You're still curious. How did he do that?! Now that's something you'll have to talk about with your friends.
That's fun. Not the trick itself, but the memory of the trick and how it is still unsolved.
The premise to an MMORPG is to keep players curious for as long as possible. How we've been doing it up until now is by using a string of "tricks" to keep them entertained, as we have in every other genre. That only works for so long (why do you think magic shows aren't ever longer than 4 hours?), and people are already tired of the same tricks being recycled over and over.
We need a new bag of tricks (or new ways to use old tricks), and I think we'll find a wealth of the kind that perpetuates curiosity in religion and other dogma (Is there a God? etc.). The kind of simple trick that keeps our minds preoccupied for long periods of time (note that I'm not suggesting these as plot devices... I'm suggesting we create situations that mimic them - make the player curious about a big, unexplainable something in our games for as long as possible).
The kind of questions that may never be solved, as they were never meant to be.
"Hidden answers to great problems breed great curiosity - and a great following." Sums it up nicely.
Good ol' politicians with their promises they can't deliver... too bad they can't hide their failures as well as the clergymen can.
So we need to be better magicians as game developers. We need to keep people guessing.
We need to stop revealing our tricks.
So really, It's not so much the discovery itself that is fun as it is the promise of a discovery. The process of discovering.
I was not saying top end is not a grind, just explaining why it has to be, there is little escape from that reward/gain scenario.