Dev vs Player created content

opie

Well, since we are all waiting for x game to come out. I figured we could take a break from the normal argumentative threads and start a different argumentative thread.

Whats better? Player created end game content or Dev created end game content.

Whats that mean? Player create is usually found in a open pvp system where player driven politics could erupt into conflict anywhere everywhere(think old UO). Dev created is adding some levels, creating bigger nastier monsters and adding more uber loot (think EQ expansions).

Personally I support the old UO system for the following reasons:

1) Without a open system, there is no such thing as good or bad really. For example: you want to be a noble knight protecting the common folks and crafters. Well, if theres no real threats such as bandits, etc your role is meaningless. Same holds true for evil folks. Not much point in pretending to be a bad guy if you cant actually create havoc knowing someone will come after you.

2) Player created content means you always have something fresh and new to do. You never finish it, you never have to wait for more content to come down the line. You dont like where things are now? Change it, go out and mix things up, create an alliance, break one, raid a town, etc. Whatever you wanna do.

3) You dont have to shell out cash for a game the devs never finished to begin with (SOE yes, but they arent the only ones..). If I pay 50 bucks up front and 15 a month, I dont think I should have to pay them even more for spoon fed content that everyone other person in the whole world will play.

4) Player created content makes your experience unique. In a open system, my story is completely unique to me as im the one who creates it. In a expansion, you know that every other player wil experience the same content, have the same monsters to fight, most of the same goals.

5) This blurs a bit as real player driven content relies on a open pvp system with real choices. First well tackle pvp.
a) lineage 2 is a awful example of a open pvp game. Sure you can do whatever, but there is hardly any consequences for your actions. I go on a murdering rampage, so what....kill monster for a while then ill be back in white.
b) old uo had a pretty good system. you could do whatever, but there were real consequennces associated with your actions. you kill people, that your choice but your making a career decisions that is going to follow you around with real negative drawbacks for a loong long time. "Turning red" in UO when you get 40 hours of gameplay time for just one count to wear off is not something that a person does lightly. You think before you act.

So, in a open pvp enviroment, a player is able to have a guild and declare himself king of a town or area. If other people come in you can demand things or kill them or rule over them kindly with force to back you up. It also invites people to either join you in your new "kingdom" or to come and challenge you and free the people.

These are things that a "on rails" content system simply does not provide.

In the end, think about this. Most people enjoy amusement parks and the rides are on rails. How is that any different you might ask? You dont spend very much time in a amusement park so you dont mind the generic entertainment. However, if a person to go everyday it would get old quick. Thats the problem with mmorpgs....they are meant to last for years and keep a player playign the game 10+ hours a week for all that time. Thats alot harder to do with a spoon fed system and in the end creates a enviroment that is:

a) not as fun (suprises and unpredicatable occurences are fun) - my opinon i know
b) feels less alive - if things dont happen, things that even a dev cant predict, the world feels a bit more artificial than it would otherwise.

Well, thats it. Thanks for reading and let the arguing commence.

"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank

Unknown

Why does it have to be "vs" ?

 There is a third option - Player content AND Dev content.

Every MMORPG has the third option. Just some lean more towards one side than others.

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opie

Ideally yes I like the third option but you rarely find it. I used UO as a example....UO had dungeons (bette than walking through a field waitng for monsters to appear). Each of those dungeons had a special feel and style to it that gave it personality. That was content that a designer spent some time trying to make well. I do think a game should have both.

Unfortunately, now days for a game (due to how polarized the communites are) you either see all "on rails" or "all open and no dev content". Im not happy with it, just saying thats they way it usually is now. Im the first one to rip on pvp heavy games for neglecting pve.

"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank

Finwe

Hrm...As I figure it. I believe its wurm online that allows you to manipulate terrain.

You make the world completely barren, with natural resources, and the ability for the player to mold his enviroment around him. I think that'd be the next fold of greatness for the MMORPG industry.

Add that, and get the devs to just concentrate on beautiful natural landscapes, good ai, good combat system, and creatures that have a migrating pattern, protection pattern. etc.

So you could still have your caves with direwolves, but they wouldn't just respawn, and always be there.

I think the next level of the MMORPG industry is to allow more freedom, with a tinge of more realism. Because lets face it, the RPG in MMORPG is ROLE-PLAYING game.

Its nice to have fantasy, but if it feels too fake, then you can't really get into the role-playing mood. And add in fantasy with the ability to change your surroundings, you'll have people that through strength, perseverence, and being good with politics. Being a king that rules one of the strongest nations.

Or a vagabond that becomes a Crime Lord and terrorizes the country side.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

opie

Well, ironically enough the thing that makes the world feel real to me is freedom/consequences.

The game could be a southpark based game and as long as all my actions had a result/consequence and my actions werent limited for the most part, I would continue to be drawn in. Its only when my actions are limited that I start to feel like my actions are meaningless (which they usually are in fact).

"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank

Finwe

Ya. freedom=realism is what I mean't.

Artificial barriers annoy me.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

opie

WoW (no pun intended), I thought this would have generated more discussion.

Considering all the expansions for games and the rift between choice and control, do people simply have anythign to say?

Hey you EQ fans, come explain why you like expansions over creating your own story.

"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank

Zipeh

i play eve whose content is mostly player driven, and i prefer this for the reason that thousands of people will always come up with more interesting things than a team of developers, due to numbers.  from what i have read, and from my experience as a DM in D&D, players never do what you expect, therefore regardless of how much you prepare for them they will invariably take your creation in an unperceived direction.  with this in mind it seems to me to easier to create a world, populate it with things to bump into, set down some rules and let the pesky players make their own story as they interact with each other.  nothing wrong with a helping hand, roadblock or shove to tweak things a little, but having no player content would be missing out on the great potential for human ingenuity and motivation.

opie

Yeah I like alot of stuff about eve. Game pace was just too slow for me. More power to those that can take it though....lot to learn from eve.

"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank