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Real Time Spell Targeting
Draconus
Freeworld AdminMember Posts: 781
We are working on a "Real Time Spell Targeting" system for combat spells (AKA Nukes)
no more clicking a player/monster and having the game auto aim and auto hit your opponent with a spell. It will be up to the aiming skill of the player and not a computer math problem in the code based on stats and skill lvl.
the reason im posting this here is...i would like to open a discussion on what people think of this and i would like to hear all your ideas.
thanks for your time,
Clyde Bielss (CEO MindSurge Entertainment, www.freeworldonline.com )
Comments
Sounds cool....but wouldnt cause alot of lag or are you making a spell system akin to say a fps? Where we select the spell, the character does the action, and if successful, launches the spell, and hopefully hits the enemy, much like firing a gun?
If so, kudos to you, but try to make it so that the players feel like their casting something powerful, not just going through their aresenal and pulling out their shot-gun.
yes the system would be much like firing a gun is a FPS.
our archery system is already like this and we have no problem with lag.
(even though there are two kinds of lag....1) lag in server 2) lag in graphics....i find most people mistake the fact that there PC is not good (graphic lag) with server lag and blame the problems on the game.)
with our system there is very small amount of info that need to be passed to track the spells direction and impact. It can be done with a 56.6k modem with no lag do to the server or internet connection.
some people with low end machines may see graphic lag (but that it no fault to code of the game)
www.freeworldonline.com
I really like the idea but i dont think i would like it with all of my spell's.
For instance your in a heated battle and your a healer type char keeping your group alive. Personally i like to throw a nuke in when i have a chance in between heals and i think that would be hard to do. Trying to aim between your fellow group members for a clear shot might be kind of hard.
Although i like the idea of haveing it used for wizard/mage type chars. Maybe a maybe a long range bolt spell that does a little extra dmg for a head shot or something.
Great idea Draconus
!
_______________________
Shatter Soulich
Necromancer
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Shatter Soulich
Necromancer
My answer depends a great deal on the general type of game you envision. If it is a roleplay game, then I would dislike it quite a bit. Roleplay games almost by their very definition (and certainly by historical perspective) are centered on the skills, etc. of the character NOT the player. While I agree that we all want some degree of personal skill involvement - not to the level you are suggesting. In, on the other hand, the game is not intended to be a "true" roleplay game with character skills, etc., then it might do just fine.
Also, it very much depends on the specifics of YOUR target audience. If you really only want young players with highly developed hand-eye coordination, then it will likely be a good thing. However, if your target audience is intended to include a wider cross section of the "hand-eye" uncoordinated, then I would suggest you do not want to go this route. I know that I for one would not play the game no matter how good it might be in other respects as I am NOT very coordinated and thus cannot possibly compete nor enjoy a game with such stringent requirements on my hand-eye coordination. You must decide here.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
I am a healer at heart. So i do understand this 100%. In the healing path of magic we will also include drains. Drains will not be a targeted type spell but a more traditional MMORPG spell cast (click the player/monster and hit the spell key). So...in the example a healer would not have the so called "NUKE" but they will have there own set of direct damage type spells.
but you would still have the options to have nukes too, even as a healer. In freeworld there are no classes so every one is free to learn from any spell path.
we will be opening up the test phase for FreeWorld again in the next 4 weeks or so and i would love to invite you all to take part in it. I love to sit down and get ideas from the real experts of the gaming world "The Players"
www.freeworldonline.com
I like the idea for archery but not for magic users. The problem with doing it with magic is you have a wide variety of types and you have casting times...unless your game isn't planning to have these things. I personally want a MMO that I can come home to and sit back and not work up a sweat trying to hit mobs as I'm trying to dodge them. And if I can't move while shooting and I still have to aim well then I feel like I'm having to do a needless and tedious extra step. Stand still, take careful aim, get hit by mobs all the while, and now I can shoot! Oops I missed, well there goes my mana....sorry but as a caster at heart this kinda discourges me.
"Feel free to hate me, but hate me for the right reasons."
"Your still ignorant if you believe the first thing you see when the blindfold is removed."
"Be smart enough to know I'm smarter than you."
yes i can see this as a good point too...
with freeworld it is hard to make magic 100% point and click because the rest of our systems are all real time... So I'm trying to find a happy middle ground.
i guess my next question would be....would a player coming to a game for real time combat want his/her magic done auto?
www.freeworldonline.com
I'm sorry but this is what i disagree with. Who says roleplaying games have to be all dice? I've always wanted to play a good fantasy MMORPG that had more player skill involved in the actual combat, i guess some would call it more twitch skill even tho i hate using that term. Imo part of the problem with boredom in rpg's these days is everything is auto. You press a button to engage a monster, you park yourself in front of him and wwait for the fight to end. This is not fun anymore! I guess some like that pace, but there is definitely room for more variation in rpg's imo. Way too many people hold onto a 'rpg must be this or that', when all that really matters is you get to build and develop a character.
Anyhow, to the original post, i think its a good idea. I like how AC allowed players to dodge bolts, not sure why any other mmorpg's havent incorporated that type of play yet. I guess theyre too busy cloniing each other with boring dice rolls. I mean there should be something said for stats, equipment, etc., but there should also be said for in-game awareness, reacting, and being good at maybe dodging. Currently, every rpg/mmorpg seems to be like 100% dice
Shadowbane doesnt even account for any twitch skill really, not to mention the genre needs one done in 1st person.
So if you mean 'discuss having to aim spells by targeting', and that means what i think it means in terms of the kinda game your trying to make, then i'm all for it. I just hope you dont take it to an extreme, since imo there should be abit of everything to give it depth. Maybe certain spells being more targeting based than others that rely more on stats/equipment. Or somehow a combo of both using the same spell. The problem is everyone acts like its a given that rpgs and fps's must be at two extremes, and that seems to be all we're given
The more skill you add to the equation....The more ability for people to cheat Via Aimbots.
That said the D&D Online system is very similar. You must actually aim, it's very twitchish.
Someone needs to do a market study...The market for FPS games is obviously compeatly satisfied by the generic FPS, youa re aiming at somewhere between the RPG market and the FPS market. Power determined by Twitch skills and Time Played. I am entirly in the dark about how large that market is, but going on results from past FPS/RPG hybrids the market is NOT very large.
Compare the number of subscribers for Planetside/Endless Ages versus say EQ/DAOC/All the rest combined, you'll find that the cross-sector market is very small...
I've never played Endless Ages, but Planetside is more like a FPS set in a persistant world. I dont think there is much rpg or depth to that game. In fact, i dont think a hybrid has been made that retains the depth of a rpg/mmorpg(npcs, economy, items, basically a world with many things to do) with the action/skill of a fps.
Like i said above, imo every game thats come out has leaned towards the extremes of each genre, and the only hybrids to come out have been heavily sided towards fps, while having very little rpg elements. And they all lack depth as a result. Imo RPG = Depth. FPS = Skill. And i dont see why they cant be combined more equally in a game, nor have i seen an attempt to do that from any game. I think AC1 did it slightly, but not enough fps. I mean there HAS to be room for more variation, instead of going by these silly rules that rpg's must all be entirely based on stats which help determine dice rolls. And now we have this dumbed down combat gameplay of just hitting special attacks in every mmorpg while just standing there toe to toe, and letting the computer crunch the numbers.
also i disagree, 'time played' favors pure rpg not fps skill. Anyone can play a mmorpg for years and buildup their character with Uber equipment and the highest stats, and he'll be a God or at least have a significant advantage over someone whos played half that tiime. FPS evens that out, since fps measures more the alertness, reaction, and quick thinking of a player vs the other player or mob. And again, i want to emphasize i'm not for the extreme of either/or, i'm for a good balance of both, something i dont think we've seen from a game yet. Its just every fps/rpg hybrid has leaned way too far towards fps(also lacking depth). While every rpg/mmorpg has leaned way too far towards auto-attacks and dice rolls.
And it goes without saying, the quality of the gameworld also means alot. So i dont think just having those mechanics in the game will attract people, the game has to be attractive and well done overall imo.
I think the problem with the modern day MMORPG Companies is that they look at how many people will be playing and how much money they will be making. We are not trying to make a game for the soul purpose of mass marketing (don't get me wrong, we would love a ton of people to play but this is not the motivation behind the project.). The fact is, we are a group of gamers that got sick of what the main stream industry was shoving down our throat and in the process making our pocket books smaller and smaller.
We do try our best to make most the people that play happy...but the sad fact is "If you make one person happy you just pissed someone else off"
unlike other games we take the time to go out and talk to people listen to there ideas and change things as needed. How many Dev's do you know that just come by the MMORPG forums to chat it up with everyone?
Everyone has been making some great points and I'm pulling all the data together to see what i can do to make a system that fits everyone 
www.freeworldonline.com
What you have to remember is that all the classes are generally played by a single type of gamer. These gamers stick to certain classes because there is an allure that draws them or they like the gameplay style. Usually it ends up being the latter not the former. You might consider that not all classes need a twitch style gameplay. While I like the idea of having archers needing to actually aim I believe you need to take the idea one step further. Have a general aiming mark that frees the user from targeting, however, once the shot is fire and the target is "hit" have a background code assess the character's skills and decide whether or not it actually hit...if it did have it hit where they aimed. That way you can have crits based on damage location such as in the head. This system shouldn't be applied everywhere however...even as a melee while it might be fun to only attack when you click having to constantly click or hold down the button just to attack can get old fast. lol
As far as mages go if I have some sort of "mage targeting" system where one can lock on a target and move around while aiming and so that when the spell is cast it will fly at that target even if I'm not dead on I could approve of such a system. Just so long as I don't have a high chance or have to rely on being completely into the game to do well.
"Feel free to hate me, but hate me for the right reasons."
"Your still ignorant if you believe the first thing you see when the blindfold is removed."
"Be smart enough to know I'm smarter than you."
i like it, dont let the nay sayers talk you into turning it into a carbon copy target, click while you eat luch battle system. if thats what they want, there is plenty of it out there.
playing an archer in one of the earlier alpha tests was a blast, and different experience from any mmorpg i played. good luck.
"Sure there have been injuries and deaths in boxing - but none of them serious."
- Alan Minter, Boxer
Sounds pretty good. How about with crossbows if you hit in say, the head, It does a X5 Critical? I really would like to see this sort of play implemented. Or a arrow right in the middle of the chest would be X7 or more(Depending on whether it had a heart or not) And if you hit in the hand it would do X.5 Damage. Leg and Arms and anything between would be regular and also, so people dont always just get instant kills, instead of making enemies walk back and forth when they spawn, have them rampage the lands looking to kill. This way, it would be more hard to target and therefore, more realistic.
I think that would work pretty well, you all could start a new generation of MMORPGs!
Games Played:DoAC, EQ, CoH, Lineage 2, Planetside, and Shadowbane.
Games Playing:None:(
Waiting For:WoW, EQII
Please.... For the love of big titties.... Stop calling this "graphics lag." People already make this mistake enough - there is "latency", there is "server performance", and there is "low frame rate." The more this term is used, the more it reaffirms the incorrect usage of it. Calculating the vector between a player character and an object in the game world can only affect two of the three. If the developer can do it without affecting server performance or latency then why not give it a shot.
-pooka
Be very careful about your perspective on this. While you are technically correct, and many times the client causes more trouble than the server, the fact of the matter is that if the game does not perform as the user expects it is indeed your problem. The user often has no way to discern at any given moment whether lag is caused by their computer, their connection, your servers, or any of the tenfold-possible points of failure between.
Inherently you own this problem, because you desire your users to interact with your product. This is going to be a fairly serious problem for you to overcome...owing to the extreme variance of hardware and software configurations you will likely need to accomodate.
It may not be the fault of the game, but it ends up being something the user will blame on the game. You'll have to live with this, like it or not.
yes i do understand that all lag is blamed on the game
FreeWorld has so many graphic control options that it could be configured to support even the lowest end machines without any problems.
this next test phase will be the true test if the players like the system or not...and we will change the system as we get input.
all of you guys bring up very good points and i have informed the Dev. team to make sure to come by hear and read them.
please keep the ideas coming
I do like this idea... give casters a wand, and *hopla* they can aim. As for healers and defensive casters (my fav) this can indeed become a problem though. I'd say wards (area effect), groupheals, pre-fight buffs and maybe even pre-targetting (locking of max 2/3 players of your choice - there r always a few chars most likely to get the most hits) could help out there...
"This game is about watching eachothers backs but somehow people tend to overlook my back when I'm not online to tell them where it is."
Edmans, what you said above is exactly what i had visioned for our spell system. I do believe that self targeting would be a huge mistake for many types of spells.
one more spell type we will be adding that you will not see anywhere else is Chain Targeting. Chain Targeting is a auto target kind of spell that effects many targets. You will select one target, then a second and a third and so on. When the spell is fired it will travel to the first target then jump from that target to the second and then to the third and so on. i think it will look really cool
well ive seen how the archer skill works and must say it would be great for the spells.
i like the fact that practice makes perfect and not the computer. took me a bit to work out the bow but once you get the hang of it is perfect. once pvp is in this game everyone that is using real time fighting will realize they made need more training before entering pvp 8)
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Well, you know what 'they' say about great minds, ey...
But more seriously, selftargetting of spells isn't 'bad' per se imho. One could ofc have a 'stance' or spell that lasts for x seconds, takes y seconds to cast, which will make the spells cast in that x timeframe hit the person who needs it most (with lowest % of health, etc).
Chain targetting sounds really good indeed. Make it jump back into the wand at the end of the spell though, finish the circle, now THAT would make some nice animations
"This game is about watching eachothers backs but somehow people tend to overlook my back when I'm not online to tell them where it is."
More peoples should LIKE such a feature then dislike it.
However, it will not be unanimous and some folks, like me, would not stand that 1 moment(eh I am old and grumpy I know).
2 solutions: - Focus on 1 type of gameplay, be clear about it and dont care much for the other.
- Make 2 differents class that are actually the same class just with different gameplay, however, you are taking a dangerous road, the peoples on the real time action will want to be better, and the peoples on the no real time involved or as little as possible have the same egos issues then every others players. We are not even talking about class balance within each aspect yet. I dont think it is worth all the efforts, stick to 1 road.
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
here is one more thing i need to mention about FreeWorld for people that don't know
FreeWorld is a CLASSLESS system. Everyone can pick and choice what they want to do and they are good at the things they do most of the time. Everything in game is based on player skill and the skill you have gained in that type of game play. You may see a wizard casting spells, then the next second he has walked alway from the battle but on his favorite set of plate mail and grab up a battle Axe, then heads back into battle. Because of how the system works you are better off to pick a few skills to use and stick with them, But your not forced to do this like in most games.
SO, we will be offering Self Targeted and Auto Targeted magic. Players will have a choice in what they want to learn. The Self Targeted spells will do greater damage then the Auto Targeted Spells because it will also take skill to use.
Just wanted to add my 2£ to the discussion. I like the idea of real time combat and player skill in targesting (wether it be in fp view or 3'rd person view).
"The Self Targeted spells will do greater damage then the Auto Targeted Spells because it will also take skill to use."
This may be a mistake because ppl don't like lower numbers. You could make it so the auto target spell took a little more time to cast (to simulate aiming...), longer cast time would mean lower damage over time but players would still see those high numbers.
Regarding the classless (character) skill based system. Will you make it so skill training slows down after you have a certain ammount of skills to the point of glacial or could a character have all skills ?
Cyan
this is a GREAT idea! i think your right on this one
i think you may have changed the face of FreeWorld Spell Casting forever 
everyone starts out with every skill and can use them all. BUT it is almost humanly imposable to be good in every skill. Not because you cant do it...But because of a time factor (there is just so many hours a player could play in a life time).
The final system will be set up in such a way that you could use every skill, But then you would just be slightly good in everything and not really good at anything.
we are not forcing anyone to us a set number of skills or a set combo of skills, But the system will be set up in a way that will encourage players to specialize in a selection of a few skills.
this is why it is called FreeWorld. Its the Freedom to do as you want and not what we have forced you to do (unlike most games you play do).