Since when being a Templar makes you the "alpha-male" of the party?

Rikimaru_X

Alright, even though I'm pure console gamer and I do play mmo's there is something about some templars (and maybe you can add gladiatiors) that I don't understand. If I invite a Temp to a group party, why the hell do some think that they are the instant "alpha-male" of the party all of a sudden? Meaning they take auto lead. Some threw up the argument with me that tank should always lead. This is something I don't agree with. To me, whomever has the crown (party leader) is the lead and shot-caller unless party leader gives that job to another person.

I don't like when it's all my legion and I invite a Tank (outside the legion party) and they pretty much think they run the show, when technically the legion is far more connected to each other than the random. Meaning I don't like some tanks that like to be rouge and expect the party to follow or healer to do things when they are trying to lead a group of people that are far more connected within each other than the person. I even had tanks brag to me about how they were ranked -insert random number- in WoW.

This isn't WoW, I don't care where you were ranked, and I don't care if your famous or not. As long as you work as a team and follow marks it's all good. If I give you the authority to lead the party I will. I don't like when people think they can take over a party and try to make their e-peen bigger by charging at an elete mob, and doing repeats.

Hey, if the tank was party lead, I'm down for it. He's the party leader. If the leader give him shot-caller authority, I'm down with that too. If the guy just gets in the party and shows off without listening or following lead/shot-caller instructions then that's a big no no. I've also had arguments to me that tanks should be party leader anyway.

To me, anybody can be party leader and lead the party, as long as you have the knowledge and observation skills. In my opinion, from a RTS perspective, I would say scout classes and sorc classes (and maybe healer too) to have a much wider range of vision to look out for patrol, additional mobs, opposte faction, etc.

I don't have no hate with Templars or Glads and if they do make a mastake into thinking that they thought they was leading the party, it's all good. I have had many stubborn and ignorant ones in my parties though and I find them more to complain about the party. I had a guy decked out in all crit, blue and gold gear talking about he won't join a party without CC and yet we went though Kaidan HQ with no problems, as long as you know how to lead the party.

Xasapis

If you look at the technical aspect of the game, it's easier to give leader to the guy that pulls, so he can do the marking of mobs as well. Beyond that, there is no reason for a tank to be a leader, nor that it matters much who's the leader and who isn't.

Beyond that, in the tank/healer/dps triangle, there is a certain difficulty involved with filling each individual role. It's a lot harder to be an above average tank, than it is to be an above average healer. DPS is the easiest job of all three by far, the only thing you need to worry about is to assist the tank and don't overagrro (most of the time). So the varrying difficulty and roles attracts individuals with different mindsets. Unfortunately, along with the people that pick their roles with the understanding of what they are willing to offer, a good deal of individuals pick classes on the basis of what others are willing to offer instead.

That's why it's easier to notice the arrogance on those individuals. It's a combination of them picking the class exactly because they needed the self esteem boost and because they are in a sit of power, thus you're forced to go along with their antics.

On the other hand, just because these individuals exist and due to their position their arrogance is more prominent than say, a DPS class, it doesn't mean that everyone choosing to be a tank or a healer is arrogant. In fact, the quality of the class channels (cleric in my case) is leaps and bounds better than the quality of the general chat. If anything, it's telling that the people who choose to play the support classes are mostly of the mindset of helping people, than the other way round.

drel

You're right, anyone can lead the party, and I've been in parties where that has been the case. I don't think just being a Templar gives you the right to lead the party because you're the tank. If a group ever finds the Templar is a jerk, they can always allow the Templar to die when the group is in battle

Xasapis

That would lead to wipes, something that it's much more painful in this game.

For the record, I think that in Aion, it's actually the healer that has the hardest job in PvE, given the way the aggro table is constructed. At least we're given chain armor and a shield.

Vesavius

Far better to have a tank that knows the environment and mobs and can lead smoothly.

Having to stop every 2 mins and ask 'what should I pull' or 'where should I go' isnt good...

Personally, I won't play a tank until I have run through the game once so that I can learn how things are.

Jimmydean

Templars want to lead your party not because they are some egotistical nerd, but because it is much smoother if they do. Granted, if they don't know what they are doing it can be bad. With the tank at the lead it cuts out the need for telling them what to pull and where to go, and any confusion therein. If the tank is a good leader, he will lead your group through the instance at a reasonable pace and there is literally no need to give orders, you just follow his lead.

Does this give him the "right" to take over the leader position when he enters the group? Nope, but I think you have to ask yourself just how much value you are putting on this leadership position, as it seems the benefit that you get from it is more of an ego trip than an increase in group performance.

Sovrath

I think it's partially the personality of people who like to tank.

For instance, when it comes to leadership, I enjoy leading a clan or guild (enjoyed actually as I don't have the time to do it these days) when it comes to setting the rules and general feeling of the guild.

However, when it comes to parties, I would rather just do damage and let others be responsible for the party.

I think that players who like to tank are used to making pull decisions. I have a tank in LOTRO and though I always thought that I should be making the pull decisions I was always willing to have others pull, such as the hunter.

So they are used to making these decision and in some cases expect it and therefore they expect to lead the party.

In any case, you could just communicate with them that they have the responsibility for tanking but that you are the leaer of the party as far as loot or where to go and if they are uncomfortable with that then you would be happy to let them find a party better suited to their expectations and that you will find a tank that is comfortable with yours.

DillingerEP

Originally posted by Jimmydean


Templars want to lead your party not because they are some egotistical nerd, but because it is much smoother if they do. Granted, if they don't know what they are doing it can be bad. With the tank at the lead it cuts out the need for telling them what to pull and where to go, and any confusion therein. If the tank is a good leader, he will lead your group through the instance at a reasonable pace and there is literally no need to give orders, you just follow his lead.
Does this give him the "right" to take over the leader position when he enters the group? Nope, but I think you have to ask yourself just how much value you are putting on this leadership position, as it seems the benefit that you get from it is more of an ego trip than an increase in group performance.

 

^^ This

It was going to be along the lines of what i was going to say. When you have a tank in your group that A) Know's what he is doing. Is not a asshat. C) Is always communicating with the rest of the group. Nothing is more valuble to have then a good tank, besides of course a good healer :P

The tank doesn't nessecarily need to be the leader of the group, for him to lead the group. What i mean is, telling the tank what ya want and have the group follow his cue, nothing could actually be better. It's not like you have to bow down to your throne of party lead.

Of course it just sound's like you met a few jerk's too.. but you can find them anywhere, and any class.

Doomsayer

Damn, I got the reverse problem. I play all classes and roles, but a tank  is usually my main. And it is so in Aion, both my highest characters are tanks, one of each.

I find when I enter a party, the leadership role is thrown upon me. I have no desire for it. I usually ask if someone else wants it. And no one, usually, ever takes the offer.

In PvE this is usually the case. In PvP or RvR its even worse. I would love to be the meat shield just smacking what I am told to smack and holding the aggro without any other concerns. It just rarely ever works out that way.

Sovrath

Originally posted by DillingerEP

Originally posted by Jimmydean


Templars want to lead your party not because they are some egotistical nerd, but because it is much smoother if they do. Granted, if they don't know what they are doing it can be bad. With the tank at the lead it cuts out the need for telling them what to pull and where to go, and any confusion therein. If the tank is a good leader, he will lead your group through the instance at a reasonable pace and there is literally no need to give orders, you just follow his lead.
Does this give him the "right" to take over the leader position when he enters the group? Nope, but I think you have to ask yourself just how much value you are putting on this leadership position, as it seems the benefit that you get from it is more of an ego trip than an increase in group performance.

 

^^ This

It was going to be along the lines of what i was going to say. When you have a tank in your group that A) Know's what he is doing. Is not a asshat. C) Is always communicating with the rest of the group. Nothing is more valuble to have then a good tank, besides of course a good healer :P

The tank doesn't nessecarily need to be the leader of the group, for him to lead the group. What i mean is, telling the tank what ya want and have the group follow his cue, nothing could actually be better. It's not like you have to bow down to your throne of party lead.

Of course it just sound's like you met a few jerk's too.. but you can find them anywhere, and any class.

 

There is a difference between leading a party and leading the fighting. The party leader sets the tone of the party, expectations, where they should go, perhaps looting, etc. Party leader can add or drop people.

The tank, is responsible for directing the fights. He/she should have no say on anything else unless he/she is the party leader.

cukimunga

I think there is a difference between a  tank leading the party and the tank leading the way.  IMO tanks should always be ahead of the party so they can be the first to draw aggro so they can have their taunt ability ready for use.  While the tanks are leading the way you can still lead by thinking of strategies and stuff. If I was playing a mage I sure as hell don't want to be out in front of a party leading the way and leading the party.

DillingerEP

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by DillingerEP

Originally posted by Jimmydean


Templars want to lead your party not because they are some egotistical nerd, but because it is much smoother if they do. Granted, if they don't know what they are doing it can be bad. With the tank at the lead it cuts out the need for telling them what to pull and where to go, and any confusion therein. If the tank is a good leader, he will lead your group through the instance at a reasonable pace and there is literally no need to give orders, you just follow his lead.
Does this give him the "right" to take over the leader position when he enters the group? Nope, but I think you have to ask yourself just how much value you are putting on this leadership position, as it seems the benefit that you get from it is more of an ego trip than an increase in group performance.

 

^^ This

It was going to be along the lines of what i was going to say. When you have a tank in your group that A) Know's what he is doing. Is not a asshat. C) Is always communicating with the rest of the group. Nothing is more valuble to have then a good tank, besides of course a good healer :P

The tank doesn't nessecarily need to be the leader of the group, for him to lead the group. What i mean is, telling the tank what ya want and have the group follow his cue, nothing could actually be better. It's not like you have to bow down to your throne of party lead.

Of course it just sound's like you met a few jerk's too.. but you can find them anywhere, and any class.

 

There is a difference between leading a party and leading the fighting. The party leader sets the tone of the party, expectations, where they should go, perhaps looting, etc. Party leader can add or drop people.

The tank, is responsible for directing the fights. He/she should have no say on anything else unless he/she is the party leader.

 

I'm well aware that there is a difference being the leader and leading the fighting. I was just wasn't clear enough, or you misunderstood where i was going. Oh well, we pretty much agree... about the tank directing fight's, and the party leader.. actually being the leader leader.

Rohn

I think there are certain expectations of people who play certain classes.  I don't believe the OP has any idea how often it is that the other players in a group EXPECT the tank to lead the instance run when he joins.  No, that doesn't mean making all the loot decisions or whatnot, but as far as guiding the group, strategies used, and determining the pace of the run, there are a lot of non-tank players that firmly believe that's the tank's job.  And if the tank doesn't do these things well, then he's a "bad tank".

In fact, a lot players, especially DPS players, are just along for the ride in an instance run, expecting to be taken by other players to fat loot pinatas where they can unleash their L33T dps to the virtual amazement of all.  That mindset is very common, and as such, many tanks often assume it'll be their responsibility every time.

To the OP, I'd recommend you roll a tank at some point in your MMO career, and you'll be able to see firsthand the general expectations people have of you in that role.

RavZterz

Originally posted by Rohn


I think there are certain expectations of people who play certain classes.  I don't believe the OP has any idea how often it is that the other players in a group EXPECT the tank to lead the instance run when he joins.  No, that doesn't mean making all the loot decisions or whatnot, but as far as guiding the group, strategies used, and determining the pace of the run, there are a lot of non-tank players that firmly believe that's the tank's job.  And if the tank doesn't do these things well, then he's a "bad tank".
In fact, a lot players, especially DPS players, are just along for the ride in an instance run, expecting to be taken by other players to fat loot pinatas where they can unleash their L33T dps to the virtual amazement of all.  That mindset is very common.
To the OP, I'd recommend you roll a tank at some point in your MMO career, and you'll be able to see firsthand the general expectations people have of you in that role.

 

I agree with Rohn ^^

SonikFlash

They just need to implement a system allowing the tank to mark targets without having party leader, personally I haven't had any of these alpha male tanks yet, on my sorc and chanter I'm usually running new tanks through the how of pulling things like Fire Temple for the first time so they dont destroy my exp bar,

once a good tank gets the hang of it things should flow naturally, there really shouldnt be any need to talk at all in a good group.

scodavis

Originally posted by Xasapis


That would lead to wipes, something that it's much more painful in this game.
For the record, I think that in Aion, it's actually the healer that has the hardest job in PvE, given the way the aggro table is constructed. At least we're given chain armor and a shield.

 

Yesterday a pug group, myself (Templar), two assassins, two rangers and a cleric went all the way through BC to the tree.  After the cleric and one ranger got their tree quest done they left, leaving us with a Temp(20), two assassins (19,21) and the ranger(18).  We figured we were dead meat but still needed totems and everyone was up for some fun so we headed back through knowing we would die.

 

Not one of us died.  Not once.  Careful pulls and massive DPS did the trick.  We were all laughing about how useless healers were in this game when cheap craftable pots and careful pulls did the trick.  We came close on Abiji, but we killed her.  You are right though, a healer would have just been an aggro problem.

 

So in our case, we didn't even need no stinkin' healers!  (a fact that we kept marveling at as we progressed through the outpost and village)

 

I also have a 20 Cleric and it was so easy and boring I dropped it and made a Templar.  I've never tanked in my life.

 

 

 

madeux

My guess is that people with an "alpha-male" personality are naturally more likely to choose a Templar or Gladiator.

cukimunga

Originally posted by SonikFlash


They just need to implement a system allowing the tank to mark targets without having party leader, personally I haven't had any of these alpha male tanks yet, on my sorc and chanter I'm usually running new tanks through the how of pulling things like Fire Temple for the first time so they dont destroy my exp bar,
once a good tank gets the hang of it things should flow naturally, there really shouldnt be any need to talk at all in a good group.

 

No talking? as in tactics or not talking at all? Cuz I get so bored just plowing through stuff like a freaking Dynasty Warriors type dungeon with no communication at all.  I say the more talking the better. I know its just a movie but they talked during battles in LOTR talking smack and stuff, it makes for a fun fight IMO.

mmaize

I totally have to agree with the OP on this and I do play a Gladiator.  To me the party leader is the one with the crown, you know, the one who actually put the party together.  More importantly is that I would hope (yes hope) that the party organizer is also the one who has some knowledge of the task at hand or the layout of the raid, etc.  When I get into a group I prefer to take the orders but if I am the organizer then I prefer to give them.  Now if I tell the tank or gladiator to just pull until I say otherwise then fine but if not then I don't want anyone assuming they are the leader unless they know something about the situation we are getting into that would make them the better leader for the raid.

Aren_D

It's simple
- if leader of the group doesn't mark then the tank leading the group
- if leader does mark group( and know what to pull) then tank just do his tanking job, if he keep asking for leadership he might be a ninja or something else

When tanking I prefer that ranged dps marks for me, because in hot battle there not always enough time to switch targets to mark them, have to watch for agro, while any ranger class can easily do it while casting a longer spell

EduardoASG

Real men play Templars... men play Gladiators.

He who tanks and protects the team is the alpha one, like in real life, in wolf packs or anything.

ElRenmazuo

Originally posted by EduardoASG


Real men play Templars... men play Gladiators.
He who tanks and protects the team is the alpha one, like in real life, in wolf packs or anything.

 

til my sin or ranger destroys your self esteem in pvp.  you guys are nothing without healers.

shaon94

As a tank I can say that it really helps to be able to mark your own targets. Having someone else do it has me constantly looking around when I could just be moving us to our next target sucks. Templars are by design the font line, I am the puller, I decide when and where I might as well decide who as well.

I do not care what level you are, or how L33T you are. I know for a fact that I AM NOT and this will keep us alive. I am careful and will make sure the party is ready before pulling.

If you wanted to be the leader you should have rolled a Templar. haha J/K

With all of the above said I will never demand the lead. If the party leader does not want to give it up I do not push the issue but unless I am new to an instance or area I will ask. I have also had some really good leaders who were not temps or glads. (especially so with Rangers for some reason)

 

Wolfenpride

I'm a templar, and i'd say we take the lead just out of nature from previous games/experiences.

I don't necessarily take charge of the entire group's managment or decide what our objectives are, i leave that up to the leader and other group members, but once we get started fighting i'm almost if not always leading the pack and deciding what to pull.

If the  leader wants to lead so he can brand targets thats fine with me, just make sure I get the inital aggro and it's all good.

abyss610

Originally posted by Rikimaru_X


Alright, even though I'm pure console gamer and I do play mmo's there is something about some templars (and maybe you can add gladiatiors) that I don't understand. If I invite a Temp to a group party, why the hell do some think that they are the instant "alpha-male" of the party all of a sudden? Meaning they take auto lead. Some threw up the argument with me that tank should always lead. This is something I don't agree with. To me, whomever has the crown (party leader) is the lead and shot-caller unless party leader gives that job to another person.
I don't like when it's all my legion and I invite a Tank (outside the legion party) and they pretty much think they run the show, when technically the legion is far more connected to each other than the random. Meaning I don't like some tanks that like to be rouge and expect the party to follow or healer to do things when they are trying to lead a group of people that are far more connected within each other than the person. I even had tanks brag to me about how they were ranked -insert random number- in WoW.
This isn't WoW, I don't care where you were ranked, and I don't care if your famous or not. As long as you work as a team and follow marks it's all good. If I give you the authority to lead the party I will. I don't like when people think they can take over a party and try to make their e-peen bigger by charging at an elete mob, and doing repeats.
Hey, if the tank was party lead, I'm down for it. He's the party leader. If the leader give him shot-caller authority, I'm down with that too. If the guy just gets in the party and shows off without listening or following lead/shot-caller instructions then that's a big no no. I've also had arguments to me that tanks should be party leader anyway.
To me, anybody can be party leader and lead the party, as long as you have the knowledge and observation skills. In my opinion, from a RTS perspective, I would say scout classes and sorc classes (and maybe healer too) to have a much wider range of vision to look out for patrol, additional mobs, opposte faction, etc.
I don't have no hate with Templars or Glads and if they do make a mastake into thinking that they thought they was leading the party, it's all good. I have had many stubborn and ignorant ones in my parties though and I find them more to complain about the party. I had a guy decked out in all crit, blue and gold gear talking about he won't join a party without CC and yet we went though Kaidan HQ with no problems, as long as you know how to lead the party.

 

most of the time the tank is givin the lead so he can mark the mobs so we know wich order he's going in. Aion is pretty unforgiving when it comes to adds and most pulls have them. on the other hand i have had tanks that didn't want lead and didn't want to have to mark the targets but wanted some one else to. its just alot easier with mobs marked than not marked for wich is being killed in what order. if you have 3 mobs in a pull and all 3 dps are on different ones 2 of the 3 will probably die and more than likely take the healer with them since he would have huge amounts of hate on him trying to heal that many people.

Rikimaru_X

Originally posted by Baggs 
You're an idiot.
 
Templars lead parties because they can tag targets FASTER and choose for THEMSELVES since they will be the ones who will get their ass spanked through the entrire fight.
 
I do make groups myself, but when we actually start killing mobs the Templar or whoever is tanking should have the lead.
It goes faster that way.
 
And no, i don't play a Templar, im a Spiritmaster.

 

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Instead of making a debate, you think Temps should lead and make yourself look like a fool. A temp is nothing without a healer. Thus if I am party leader and the Tank is putting my healer in trouble, I can cut off their heals. Now that is never something I want to do, but I don't have to puppy train a Tank that this is not his time to shine. This is for all of us. Anybody can target mobs faster. Being a tank don't increase your targeting speed. Just because you have the job of getting beat up the most don't mean you should get leader neither. All the classes get beat up in tough PVE groups.

Don't matter who is lead, as long as they got knowledge of what they are doing and how they want to do it. The party will always go faster. Not only that a lot of temps I've played with seem to ignore the respect of most of the players when they need mana also.