This is a temporal solution not long term. Any solution gained in desperation is temporal. What is necessary is a permanent fix. D&D was suffering, they are only suffering a lot less... For now...
DDO is not "suffering" anymore and this method is much more stable for them. And what proofs do you have that this is only temporary? If many F2P titles have managed to survived this long (MapleStory is at least 5 years old in North America) I don't see why DDO, which has clearly seen major improvements since they changed to a F2P model, would "suffer again in the future". DDO's cash shop is both casual and "hardcore" friendly by allowing players to buy the different zones when they need to OR they can subs which grants them full access. This model is awesome and is ,without a doubt, here to stay. If DDO dies, it's because Turbine will have released a crap expansion, pulled a really dick move or the game will just be too old (like UO, EQ and many others,the game will stay alive but with a smaller community)
Clearly you have no idea what you are saying. Your intention by making this thread was to make people say "yes P2P is better than F2P". Why am I saying this? Because you are talking about things you do not understand and refuse to agree to different opinions. Instead, you twists the facts around and say "F2P is bad". You despise the F2P model out of ignorance.... There's no way this thread was meant for a debate.
@ LynxJSA Your views are rather strong and opinionated but you disregard the views of the opposing side. Many players can agree that the majority of F2P games are poor quality and poor customer support in comparison to p2p games, this is not just my opinion. I've stated before that some companies are making strides to improve this but as far as their "long term" intent to keep the players active, they have little power over this and they know it. They thus focus on the short term interest of their players, regardless how long it takes for them to get paid, they have no choice. Their player base are short term, casual players with no reason to be loyal to their game. They lose most of their player base and they know this. Why do you think they have so many give aways and festivals? They are doing what ever they can to get you in not just to keep you in. You may have your opinions and that is fine but this thread is also open for debate from all players. I'm not asking f2p games to make their games better, as I know what their goals are. I would rather they find a better way to make money as it would improve their communities and games, if not, the p2p market that rejects their principles will never cross over and I believe their player base will demand more for free and give less in the process. I'm also stating the issues I have with the p2p market you also disregard. I believe they both have very visible problems that need to be addressed else the pendulum may aggressively swing in one direction by means of desperation and not by positive progression. D&D and Spellborn becoming F2P is showing evidence of the desperate measures companies will take to survive. This isn't saying that F2P will win, it's simply exposing the problem that exists. Over time F2P may begin to fail and P2P may begin to dominate the market, who knows? What I see for sure is that the friction has already started. This debate is to expose it, not ignore it. I'm not here to convince the masses that p2p is better than f2p, I'm not a tyrant *cough. Everyone has the right to their own opinion no matter how strong it is. What I am trying to arouse is discussion about what is happening and how we all collectively feel about it. If at the end of the day, your favorite p2p game becomes f2p against your will and power, it will alter your playing and spending habits like it or not. If your f2p game becomes p2p over night because of a drastic change in administration, it would also do the same. You can be opinionated as much as you want either side, but the issues still remains. It's also good to give suggestions and possible solutions. One may win, both may be destroyed or a new type of payment model will emerge that will replace both.
The problem is that you don't understand how the business model works. Free to Play is not for short term investment and you're pretending as if your opinion about the quality of these games is fact. Well guess what: Lots of people, especially kids, disagree with you and they are playing these games like Maple Story, Rappelz and Silkroad Online for years.
The point isn't to make a quick buck on them because that's not going to work. The business model is to first get players hooked, then after they have invested a lot of time in their characters they are more likely to invest money into a game they are already playing with their friends then they would in a game they never played before and demands a 50$ entry fee plus 15$ a month before you even know what the game is going to be like.
Um, how much have you paid for your f2p games. Just curious as to get some logical answers. If most players are dishing out over $100 a year per f2p game they play, then perhaps the problem is with p2p games and perhaps they need to change.
EDIT: Also, kids playing a game in the millions doesn't make a game succesful until they buy something. Some players may play a f2p for years while they are hopping from f2p game to f2p game. Most f2p gamers do this. They play for a short while, go to something else and they may return, maybe. Most just drop off for good. Don't worry though, millions more are on their way... Who doesn't want to try a free game?
Um, how much have you paid for your f2p games. Just curious as to get some logical answers. If most players are dishing out over $100 a year per f2p game they play, then perhaps the problem is with p2p games and perhaps they need to change. EDIT: Also, kids playing a game in the millions doesn't make a game succesful until they buy something. Some players may play a f2p for years while they are hopping from f2p game to f2p game. Most f2p gamers do this. They play for a short while, go to something else and they may return, maybe. Most just drop off for good. Don't worry though, millions more are on their way... Who doesn't want to try a free game?
Why are you asking a specific person if he spend money or not? What does it matter.
Many spend 0$. Some spend standard 15$ a month. Some spend 500$ a month.
Some games are more profitable p2p and some are more profitable if it's f2p. It depends on the game.
@ LynxJSA Your views are rather strong and opinionated but you disregard the views of the opposing side. Facts that you do not want to hear are opinion? Your views of the opposing side were irrelevant as I debated not whether one was better or worse, only that the information you presented was biased and simply false. Many players can agree that the majority of F2P games are poor quality and poor customer support in comparison to p2p games, this is not just my opinion. I've stated before that some companies are making strides to improve this but as far as their "long term" intent to keep the players active, they have little power over this and they know it. I have provided named and information to back the facts I presented. I ask that you do the same. They thus focus on the short term interest of their players, regardless how long it takes for them to get paid, they have no choice. Their player base are short term, casual players with no reason to be loyal to their game. Can you link to a source that indicates the average subscription gamer plays for more than 6-9 months in any given game? They lose most of their player base and they know this. Why do you think they have so many give aways and festivals? They are doing what ever they can to get you in not just to keep you in. You may have your opinions and that is fine but this thread is also open for debate from all players. Still waiting for any semblance of fact... Over time F2P may begin to fail and P2P may begin to dominate the market, who knows? What I see for sure is that the friction has already started. This debate is to expose it, not ignore it. What you see is two different markets, or are you under the impression that the average tween/teen buys subs? That the average 25-35yr old male isn't realtively loyal to the subscription business model?
It would really help if you linked to whatever horrid source you are using for your misinformation so that we could understand where your stance is coming from. I'm not here to convince the masses that p2p is better than f2p, I'm not a tyrant *cough. Everyone has the right to their own opinion no matter how strong it is. You do know the difference between an opinion and a false statement, right?
If "item mall" based games had another way of making money other than items that give an unfair advantage, perhaps they would attract a new element.
For example, the above is a false statement, not an opinion. Item Malls do have plenty of items that are cosmetic, decoration, acct services or do not otherwise give an unfair advantage. In PvE games, it's almost impossible to give an item that gives an 'unfair advantage' as you are not competing against anyone to begin with.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
There is no need to get so emotional. Simply state your own personal experience. Do you play p2p games or f2p games and how much do you or did you spend when you did? For any p2p gamer, that's not a hard question.
I'm not overly defense for p2p games as I want things to work for the consumer but I'm not giving the f2p market a free ticket either. There is a lot of defense here stating what others have done. Don't be so defensive. Just state your experience.
Example: "I play f2p games, I love f2p games. I admit, I don't spend a lot often but I've spent over $50 over the past 3 years. I never considered how my contribution effects the game. It's free so perhaps they make up their numbers based upon volume."
@ LynxJSA There is no need to get so emotional. Simply state your own personal experience. Do you play p2p games or f2p games and how much do you or did you spend when you did? For any p2p gamer, that's not a hard question.
I'm not overly defense for p2p games as I want things to work for the consumer but I'm not giving the f2p market a free ticket either. There is a lot of defense here stating what others have done. Don't be so defensive. Just state your experience.
That you perceive opposing views and a request for sources as emotion and defensiveness is absurd. If Wizardry and Ihmotepp had a love child, it would be you. Actually, someone would have to really go some to convince me you're NOT an Ihmotepp alt account.
And in light of that... take care.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
@ LynxJSA Your views are rather strong and opinionated but you disregard the views of the opposing side. Many players can agree that the majority of F2P games are poor quality and poor customer support in comparison to p2p games, this is not just my opinion. I've stated before that some companies are making strides to improve this but as far as their "long term" intent to keep the players active, they have little power over this and they know it. They thus focus on the short term interest of their players, regardless how long it takes for them to get paid, they have no choice. Their player base are short term, casual players with no reason to be loyal to their game. They lose most of their player base and they know this. Why do you think they have so many give aways and festivals? They are doing what ever they can to get you in not just to keep you in. You may have your opinions and that is fine but this thread is also open for debate from all players. I'm not asking f2p games to make their games better, as I know what their goals are. I would rather they find a better way to make money as it would improve their communities and games, if not, the p2p market that rejects their principles will never cross over and I believe their player base will demand more for free and give less in the process. I'm also stating the issues I have with the p2p market you also disregard. I believe they both have very visible problems that need to be addressed else the pendulum may aggressively swing in one direction by means of desperation and not by positive progression. D&D and Spellborn becoming F2P is showing evidence of the desperate measures companies will take to survive. This isn't saying that F2P will win, it's simply exposing the problem that exists. Over time F2P may begin to fail and P2P may begin to dominate the market, who knows? What I see for sure is that the friction has already started. This debate is to expose it, not ignore it. I'm not here to convince the masses that p2p is better than f2p, I'm not a tyrant *cough. Everyone has the right to their own opinion no matter how strong it is. What I am trying to arouse is discussion about what is happening and how we all collectively feel about it. If at the end of the day, your favorite p2p game becomes f2p against your will and power, it will alter your playing and spending habits like it or not. If your f2p game becomes p2p over night because of a drastic change in administration, it would also do the same. You can be opinionated as much as you want either side, but the issues still remains. It's also good to give suggestions and possible solutions. One may win, both may be destroyed or a new type of payment model will emerge that will replace both.
The problem is that you don't understand how the business model works. Free to Play is not for short term investment and you're pretending as if your opinion about the quality of these games is fact. Well guess what: Lots of people, especially kids, disagree with you and they are playing these games like Maple Story, Rappelz and Silkroad Online for years.
The point isn't to make a quick buck on them because that's not going to work. The business model is to first get players hooked, then after they have invested a lot of time in their characters they are more likely to invest money into a game they are already playing with their friends then they would in a game they never played before and demands a 50$ entry fee plus 15$ a month before you even know what the game is going to be like.
Um, how much have you paid for your f2p games. Just curious as to get some logical answers. If most players are dishing out over $100 a year per f2p game they play, then perhaps the problem is with p2p games and perhaps they need to change.
EDIT: Also, kids playing a game in the millions doesn't make a game succesful until they buy something. Some players may play a f2p for years while they are hopping from f2p game to f2p game. Most f2p gamers do this. They play for a short while, go to something else and they may return, maybe. Most just drop off for good. Don't worry though, millions more are on their way... Who doesn't want to try a free game?
I never paid anything for f2p games. I usually get turned off by the community and most of the time i'm either already playing a p2p mmorpg or i'm not into mmorpgs at all.
I really have no idea how much players spend per year but if I were to guess, i'd say that the majority of money spend is from lots of people spending a few dollars instead of having a few players pay a lot of money. Nexon, the developer or Maple Story have released how much money they make of Maple Story and it's a huge amount of money.
While there is a lot of hopping, I don't think that trend is all that different from p2p games. If a new good mmorpg comes around, they will continue to play it. If a new mmorpg turns up and it's not good, they will usually abandon it, but keep in mind that what that target audience things is good is entirely different from what you and I think is good.
@ LynxJSA There is no need to get so emotional. Simply state your own personal experience. Do you play p2p games or f2p games and how much do you or did you spend when you did? For any p2p gamer, that's not a hard question.
I'm not overly defense for p2p games as I want things to work for the consumer but I'm not giving the f2p market a free ticket either. There is a lot of defense here stating what others have done. Don't be so defensive. Just state your experience.
Example: "I play f2p games, I love f2p games. I admit, I don't spend a lot often but I've spent over $50 over the past 3 years. I never considered how my contribution effects the game. It's free so perhaps they make up their numbers based upon volume." You have yet to do that yourself. In none of your post have you said anything somewhat similar to an opinion.
All information that you have mentionned concerning F2Ps are in most case, false. You have yet to provide proofs of what you said to back you up.
We have provided all the information we needed so far to discredit all your misconception and you have yet to answer our questions. Stop twisting facts around and bring us some proofs.
@ LynxJSA There is no need to get so emotional. Simply state your own personal experience. Do you play p2p games or f2p games and how much do you or did you spend when you did? For any p2p gamer, that's not a hard question.
I'm not overly defense for p2p games as I want things to work for the consumer but I'm not giving the f2p market a free ticket either. There is a lot of defense here stating what others have done. Don't be so defensive. Just state your experience.
Example: "I play f2p games, I love f2p games. I admit, I don't spend a lot often but I've spent over $50 over the past 3 years. I never considered how my contribution effects the game. It's free so perhaps they make up their numbers based upon volume."
Why are you asking individuals if they pay in f2p games or not. What does it matter. There are polls for this kind of things.
Here is a link to money spend poll for atlantica online:
@ LynxJSA There is no need to get so emotional. Simply state your own personal experience. Do you play p2p games or f2p games and how much do you or did you spend when you did? For any p2p gamer, that's not a hard question.
I'm not overly defense for p2p games as I want things to work for the consumer but I'm not giving the f2p market a free ticket either. There is a lot of defense here stating what others have done. Don't be so defensive. Just state your experience.
Example: "I play f2p games, I love f2p games. I admit, I don't spend a lot often but I've spent over $50 over the past 3 years. I never considered how my contribution effects the game. It's free so perhaps they make up their numbers based upon volume."
Why are you asking individuals if they pay in f2p games or not. What does it matter. There are polls for this kind of things.
Here is a link to money spend poll for atlantica online:
There is also xfire to have a bad estimate if people even play f2p games in the western world.
But the main thing is in the end some games f2p and some are p2p. And it will most likely stay that way.
Some games is more profitable if it's f2p. And some games is more profitable if it's p2p. It depends on the game.
I don't want statistics, I want personal experience. This thread was made to get your opinions, not other peoples opinions or statistics. If you can not say what your experience in gaming is, your just running this topic around in circles.
One thing about many arguments on these boards are players hiding by statistics and other people's opinions. You ARE the statistic! Give your input and experience. Every player has a story, give it. Don't say what other players do or think or make an argument based upon what statistics say without including your own opinion and input. You are the gamer, you are the player, you are statistic, you make gaming what it is, not someone else, you!
I stated what I like and what I don't like, I've made known my own opinion. I've stated what I play and what I don't play and why. I stated what I pay and what I'm willing to pay and what I'm not willing to pay for. It's not hard to do the same.
If someone asks you, "What is your favorite color?" and you say, "Well statistics say that the color blue is a favorite among single men." that doesn't answer the question it just shows avoidance.
I want players to open up about their experience not to shut down their opinions but to expose a growing issue in our payment model for f2p and p2p games. We can't do this if we keep avoiding the answers. I don't mind hearing that you enjoy f2p and why you do, but I would as much as dislike a p2p player giving me statistics on what other people feel about p2p games. Give your experience and at most the testimony of people or players you know.
One thing about many arguments on these boards are players hiding by statistics and other people's opinions. You ARE the statistic! Give your input and experience. Every player has a story, give it. Don't say, lots of players do and statistics say without including your own opinion and input. You are the gamer, you are the player, you are statistic, your make gaming what it is, not someone else, you!
Then why is it wrong to use statistics? We are also part of those statistics. (and for some reasons you appear to be avoiding my posts and I find this funny. )
Anyway, you may have given your opinion on P2P but you have yet to bring non-false information concerning your dislike for F2P.
One thing about many arguments on these boards are players hiding by statistics and other people's opinions. You ARE the statistic! Give your input and experience. Every player has a story, give it. Don't say, lots of players do and statistics say without including your own opinion and input. You are the gamer, you are the player, you are statistic, your make gaming what it is, not someone else, you!
Then why is it wrong to use statistics? We are also part of those statistics. (and for some reasons you appear to be avoiding my posts and I find this funny. )
Anyway, you may have given your opinion on P2P but you have yet to bring non-false information concerning your dislike for F2P.
Is there a problem with me not liking f2p games. A lot of people dislike f2p games. I personally do not believe in paying items or resources that give you an unfair advantage in a game. Also, I do not like the communities f2p games attract. I have the right to that opinion and I know a lot of players that share the same perspective. This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
P2P vs F2P. Who will win? The main difference between a F2P business model and a P2P game business model is the ethics, not the price. Casual gamers do not mind paying to advance in a game while more dedicated gamers tend to feel as if paying to advance in a game is a form of cheating and robs the entire game and community of fair play. We all should know by now that there is no true free to play mmo. Every company has to have a way to make money from their games, we all know this by now. How a company chooses to get paid is a growing debate among gamers. Every player wouldn't mind paying to play a game provided it gives them what they want regardless if they have to pay up front or by micro transactions. The main difference between a F2P and a P2P mmo is how you pay, not if you pay. Free to play gaming was designed to encourage you to spend to advance your progress while Pay to Play games are designed for you to spend to extend your game time. Most P2P games are subscription based. If the content, quality of design and fun factor isn't fully there, players leave the game and the company loses money. For this reason alone, P2P companies spend more money and time relentlessly trying to keep you interested in their product. F2P games aren't bent on your loyalty. These companies understand that the game is free, there are other free game options out there for you to jump from game to game from. F2P games usually limits your ability to enjoy the entire experience at one point so when you can not level the same as platinum members, you realize that you can either leave the game or buy some helpful items. If you decide to stay, they make a crazy amount of money off of the players that must have to buy the best gear to advance. If you leave after spending $200 with them, it's cool, they have your money already. A F2P game wants your money now, a P2P game needs your money later. For this reason, companies that make P2P games will always fight to keep their customers happy this is why you see better quality P2P mmos. They have a lot more to lose and because they believe in making a great mmo, they will always continue to make sacrifices even when things aren't going well for them just to make a better experience for the players. There is a LOT of honor in this but unfortunately it doesn't always pay off for the company. Some players do not care about paying to advance in a game but do not understand that they are also feeding the greed and not the innovation of F2P companies. Some gamers hate the idea of paying to advance in a game and wouldn't touch a F2P game even if it were of the highest quality. To them, the community wouldn't seem authentic as paying to advance is considered a form of "cheating." Over the years, we've seen some real strides to improve F2P games but the same system will never change the opinions of dedicated gamers who believe that paying to advance is a rip off to the entire gaming industry. Because no game is ever really F2P, companies will always struggle with trying to find new ways to entice players to play their game while getting you to spend money with their company. When you see a PLAY FOR FREE advertisement, replace it with, Item Mall, Cash Shop or Micro Transactions instead as that's exactly what it really means. Players should get used to the idea that nothing good in entertainment is free and NEVER will be. You have to give something back to the developers that worked so hard to produce the games you love or you will not be able to play these games as they cost lots of money to produce and even more to maintain. How you give back will continue to shape and mold the gaming industry and the quality of games you want to see. At the end of the day, what kind of gamer are you really? This will determine the future of mmos as every company is at the mercy of the majority. State your opinions and input.
well, for me, eventually the winner will be: The single player game companies. Unless a mmo game comes out that will hit me so much that I never want to play another. I have hopes for TSW and The white wolf game that CCP is supposedly working on, but I am getting older and it is a countdown now to see if those games come out while I still want to play.
I have no problem playing single player games, and since most stratgy games, which I love, are single player or limited multi-player, I will always have games to play while waiting for the "Perfect" MMO. The closest to a "Perfect" game so far, in my opinion, is EVE. My problem with EVE is that it makes me so competitive that my friends want to kick my posterior. So I don't play it(friends are more important than games,lol).
While this win vs lose talks is just plain silly .. and there places for both in the marketplace, I see f2p becoming more and more popular. The MMO market is very different than the SP market where one player can play many many games in a year. The MMO market is pretty much winner's take all (or at least take-most) because most player only have time to "seriously" play ONE MMO. For an average consumer with a life, it is virtually impossible to spend enough time in more than one or may be two subscription MMO and keep up with the latest content. (Just look at WOW, most players are no where close to full T9 gear when that content was already out for months). So most people are not wiling to pay sub to many MMOs .. they are just not getting their dollars worth if they are only going to play a little. It is not an issue of affordability. Anyone can afford one or two MMO subs ($15-$30 a month is nothing) but i think few will pay another $15 for a MMO that he/she will play only a few hrs a months. F2P fixes all that. F2P is a great model for people who want to just play a little. Consumers are variety seeking. While i like WOW the best, sometimes i do get sick of it and want to play something else. F2P is a perfect model to suck those people in. Developers can attract an audience than previously won't even play their game, and potentially make money out of them. For the players, they can try a game for free (like an unlimited free trial) and they can decide their spending at different levels .. no need to pay $15 if you don't play that much. You can drop a few dollars here or there. There are plenty of evidence that it works well for developers. DDO's SUBSCRIPTION rate increased by 40% (!!!) after turning F2P. Its player base expanded a lot and that itself helps generate buzz and business. They also reported a high rate of people using the cash shop. This is a perfect example. DDO is not a must-play game like WOW but many would give it a trial, and a bit of money if they can. Of course, there are the OTHER audience (kids & teens) where they cannot afford a sub game. Maple Story, Free Realms, ROM are all examples of successful F2P games.
See this is the issue I exposed about p2p games. I feel the same way partially. The only problem is I DON'T like f2p games or paying to progress in a game as it is considered cheating by many that support p2p games also feel the same way and despise the f2p, "item mall" option. What I do agree is that I believe a lot of p2p gamers want and even need more payment flexibility so they do not have to dedicate their lives and finances to one game.
There are obvious different ways RMT can be handled. Selling content piece-wise (buying adventure packs) should have NO fairness concern (at least reasonable people would agree). Selling potions .. .a little even when potions can be acquired by some other means. Top level epics is another story. The choice is NOT 1 or 0 but there is a spectrum.
But the larger issue is that "cheating" is what is accepted by the public, and not you. If a company sells power items in an item mall, and becomes wildly successful, there is no reason why they should not do it because a few players don't like it. You can't please everyone anyway.
In the company point of view, financial success is what counts.
i paid 10 dollars in gunz and played for 2 years. thats why i prefer f2p. which game p2p allow that?
Also helps prove my point. Most players pay nothing to play and when they do it's a dime in the bucket.
What point? Most players cost the developer NOTHING to support. Electrons are pretty much free.
Look at DDO. Its SUBSCRIPTION rate goes up by 40% after turning F2P. It works for them. Sure, a game like WOW would like to get $15 off its 11M players .. because it can.
For games like ROM, DDO, Maple Story, F2P works .. they are all (except DDO .. the jury is still out because it just turned F2P) commercial success. It really does NOT matter if most player pays nothing, as long as they can attract ENOUGH players who do.
This is a temporal solution not long term. Any solution gained in desperation is temporal. What is necessary is a permanent fix. D&D was suffering, they are only suffering a lot less... For now...
You don't know that. A 40% increase sounds like a lot to me and it really depends on whether they are making enough money to survive. If they do, it is not temporary. Entertainment products don't last forever anyway so a "permanent fix" talk is not very relevant. If DDO last a few more years and make some money for the developer, it is a WIN.
And you don't know they are not making money right now.
There are also big successes like Maple Story & ROM. Those seem to be doing good business. ROM is coming out with expansions and stuff. Something has to fund that. I highly doubt RMT is a "temporary solultion" for these games.
well, for me, eventually the winner will be: The single player game companies. Unless a mmo game comes out that will hit me so much that I never want to play another. I have hopes for TSW and The white wolf game that CCP is supposedly working on, but I am getting older and it is a countdown now to see if those games come out while I still want to play.
I have no problem playing single player games, and since most stratgy games, which I love, are single player or limited multi-player, I will always have games to play while waiting for the "Perfect" MMO. The closest to a "Perfect" game so far, in my opinion, is EVE. My problem with EVE is that it makes me so competitive that my friends want to kick my posterior. So I don't play it(friends are more important than games,lol).
The MMO market has been growing through the years (and a lot thanks to WOW). So there is no reason to believe everyone will go back to play SP games. Plus, you are NOT the market. Whatever YOU like is like a small part of the statistics. CCP is a niche company. For example, AION, a much newer game, has MORE impact on the market than Eve in all its years.
One thing about many arguments on these boards are players hiding by statistics and other people's opinions. You ARE the statistic! Give your input and experience. Every player has a story, give it. Don't say, lots of players do and statistics say without including your own opinion and input. You are the gamer, you are the player, you are statistic, your make gaming what it is, not someone else, you!
Then why is it wrong to use statistics? We are also part of those statistics. (and for some reasons you appear to be avoiding my posts and I find this funny. )
Anyway, you may have given your opinion on P2P but you have yet to bring non-false information concerning your dislike for F2P.
Is there a problem with me not liking f2p games. A lot of people dislike f2p games. I personally do not believe in paying items or resources that give you an unfair advantage in a game. Also, I do not like the communities f2p games attract. I have the right to that opinion and I know a lot of players that share the same perspective. This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
Now that is an opinion. Previous things you mentionned such as "F2P are a temporary business model to be doomed in the future" or "You have to Pay To Win" are false information though (this is not a quote).
But honestly, the F2P system works extremely well that was created to fit a different audience. Your suggestions would destroy this purpose sadly.
As for what this thread is technically about, it's P2P vs. F2P, not what can we do to improve the F2P system. Each systems have their pros and cons and that's fine this way. There is no true winner as it is only a matter of taste/preference.
As you mentionned,many F2P games often attracts a younger audience and I agree this is a huge turn off. As for Item Mall, most shops will only sell items that enhance your gameplay but does not break the game (EXP Scroll, stronger healing potions, pets,etc) but it is true that some F2P titles will sell stronger gear and that is much closer to Pay To Win (but most of them are not MMORPGs, like Rakion, Gunbound, Combat Arms). It is also becoming more common to see companies allowing players to sell cash shop items they bought with real money to other players through in-game currency. This way, even non-mall users may benefit from the cash shop.
Few exemples:
Dungeon Fighter. All avatar items can be sold throught in-game currency.
Mabinogi: While mounts cannot be sold to other players, some mounts allows you to give a ride to 1 extra player. There are also many other items sold such as Party Feathers which revives the whole party, dye ampoule to change your clothes color, etc. All these can be traded through in-game currency.
As for P2P, well this has been said countless time already but "Time" plays is a major factor. While some would prefer playing a P2P, paying $15 a month when they can only play during the week-end may seem like a waste. (This is only an exemple). On the other hand, it's worth the $15 if you can play for a longer period of time.
This is actually why I like the D&DO business model. If you can't play a lot, then you can simply buy a Zone and once you have completed the said Zone well you can buy a new one. If you can play a lot, then you can just subs and get full access to the game. Wizard101 also uses the same system and I'm pretty sure more games in the future will use similar system as it appeal to both the hardcore and casual audience without modifying the EXP rates like WoW did over the many patches and expansions.
well, for me, eventually the winner will be: The single player game companies. Unless a mmo game comes out that will hit me so much that I never want to play another. I have hopes for TSW and The white wolf game that CCP is supposedly working on, but I am getting older and it is a countdown now to see if those games come out while I still want to play.
I have no problem playing single player games, and since most stratgy games, which I love, are single player or limited multi-player, I will always have games to play while waiting for the "Perfect" MMO. The closest to a "Perfect" game so far, in my opinion, is EVE. My problem with EVE is that it makes me so competitive that my friends want to kick my posterior. So I don't play it(friends are more important than games,lol).
The MMO market has been growing through the years (and a lot thanks to WOW). So there is no reason to believe everyone will go back to play SP games. Plus, you are NOT the market. Whatever YOU like is like a small part of the statistics. CCP is a niche company. For example, AION, a much newer game, has MORE impact on the market than Eve in all its years.
Guess I hit a nerve there fella. I did say that they would win FOR ME. I never said I was the market, nor are you. What you like is also a small part of the statistics. You might think Aion has had more impact, but everyone I know who has bought the game - about a dozen friends, have cancelled their subs cause they thought it was boring. So in the end each of us has... our opinions. Good luck on your attitude problem.
This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
Ok, but read the title which you creat. And read the first and last paragraph of thread which you creat.
Where does it say this thread is about ways to improve f2p games.
This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
Ok, but read the title which you creat. And read the first and last paragraph of thread which you creat.
Where does it say this thread is about ways to improve f2p games.
If you don't care about adding suggestions, don't. I don't care but give an opinion other than someone elses. If you think f2p will win, you can give your input why, it's cool. I don't know who will win if there will be a win but as I stated before, I believe there is a problem with the current business model for f2p and p2p.
This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
Ok, but read the title which you creat. And read the first and last paragraph of thread which you creat.
Where does it say this thread is about ways to improve f2p games.
If you don't care about adding suggestions, don't. I don't care but give an opinion other than someone elses. If you think f2p will win, you can give your input why, it's cool. I don't know who will win if there will be a win but as I stated before, I believe there is a problem with the current business model for f2p and p2p.
Ok, so there isn't really a topic we are discussing here. You just want to hear people's opinion on fp2 and p2p model.
Guess I hit a nerve there fella. I did say that they would win FOR ME. I never said I was the market, nor are you. What you like is also a small part of the statistics. You might think Aion has had more impact, but everyone I know who has bought the game - about a dozen friends, have cancelled their subs cause they thought it was boring. So in the end each of us has... our opinions. Good luck on your attitude problem.
LOL .. you and your friends. You have NO IDEA what statistiscs means. Aion has an impact is NOT an opinion. It is numbers.
Comments
DDO is not "suffering" anymore and this method is much more stable for them. And what proofs do you have that this is only temporary? If many F2P titles have managed to survived this long (MapleStory is at least 5 years old in North America) I don't see why DDO, which has clearly seen major improvements since they changed to a F2P model, would "suffer again in the future". DDO's cash shop is both casual and "hardcore" friendly by allowing players to buy the different zones when they need to OR they can subs which grants them full access. This model is awesome and is ,without a doubt, here to stay. If DDO dies, it's because Turbine will have released a crap expansion, pulled a really dick move or the game will just be too old (like UO, EQ and many others,the game will stay alive but with a smaller community)
Clearly you have no idea what you are saying. Your intention by making this thread was to make people say "yes P2P is better than F2P". Why am I saying this? Because you are talking about things you do not understand and refuse to agree to different opinions. Instead, you twists the facts around and say "F2P is bad". You despise the F2P model out of ignorance.... There's no way this thread was meant for a debate.
The problem is that you don't understand how the business model works. Free to Play is not for short term investment and you're pretending as if your opinion about the quality of these games is fact. Well guess what: Lots of people, especially kids, disagree with you and they are playing these games like Maple Story, Rappelz and Silkroad Online for years.
The point isn't to make a quick buck on them because that's not going to work. The business model is to first get players hooked, then after they have invested a lot of time in their characters they are more likely to invest money into a game they are already playing with their friends then they would in a game they never played before and demands a 50$ entry fee plus 15$ a month before you even know what the game is going to be like.
Um, how much have you paid for your f2p games. Just curious as to get some logical answers. If most players are dishing out over $100 a year per f2p game they play, then perhaps the problem is with p2p games and perhaps they need to change.
EDIT: Also, kids playing a game in the millions doesn't make a game succesful until they buy something. Some players may play a f2p for years while they are hopping from f2p game to f2p game. Most f2p gamers do this. They play for a short while, go to something else and they may return, maybe. Most just drop off for good. Don't worry though, millions more are on their way... Who doesn't want to try a free game?
I have the right to like what I want!
Why are you asking a specific person if he spend money or not? What does it matter.
Many spend 0$. Some spend standard 15$ a month. Some spend 500$ a month.
Some games are more profitable p2p and some are more profitable if it's f2p. It depends on the game.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
@ LynxJSA
There is no need to get so emotional. Simply state your own personal experience. Do you play p2p games or f2p games and how much do you or did you spend when you did? For any p2p gamer, that's not a hard question.
I'm not overly defense for p2p games as I want things to work for the consumer but I'm not giving the f2p market a free ticket either. There is a lot of defense here stating what others have done. Don't be so defensive. Just state your experience.
Example: "I play f2p games, I love f2p games. I admit, I don't spend a lot often but I've spent over $50 over the past 3 years. I never considered how my contribution effects the game. It's free so perhaps they make up their numbers based upon volume."
I have the right to like what I want!
That you perceive opposing views and a request for sources as emotion and defensiveness is absurd. If Wizardry and Ihmotepp had a love child, it would be you. Actually, someone would have to really go some to convince me you're NOT an Ihmotepp alt account.
And in light of that... take care.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The problem is that you don't understand how the business model works. Free to Play is not for short term investment and you're pretending as if your opinion about the quality of these games is fact. Well guess what: Lots of people, especially kids, disagree with you and they are playing these games like Maple Story, Rappelz and Silkroad Online for years.
The point isn't to make a quick buck on them because that's not going to work. The business model is to first get players hooked, then after they have invested a lot of time in their characters they are more likely to invest money into a game they are already playing with their friends then they would in a game they never played before and demands a 50$ entry fee plus 15$ a month before you even know what the game is going to be like.
Um, how much have you paid for your f2p games. Just curious as to get some logical answers. If most players are dishing out over $100 a year per f2p game they play, then perhaps the problem is with p2p games and perhaps they need to change.
EDIT: Also, kids playing a game in the millions doesn't make a game succesful until they buy something. Some players may play a f2p for years while they are hopping from f2p game to f2p game. Most f2p gamers do this. They play for a short while, go to something else and they may return, maybe. Most just drop off for good. Don't worry though, millions more are on their way... Who doesn't want to try a free game?
I never paid anything for f2p games. I usually get turned off by the community and most of the time i'm either already playing a p2p mmorpg or i'm not into mmorpgs at all.
I really have no idea how much players spend per year but if I were to guess, i'd say that the majority of money spend is from lots of people spending a few dollars instead of having a few players pay a lot of money. Nexon, the developer or Maple Story have released how much money they make of Maple Story and it's a huge amount of money.
While there is a lot of hopping, I don't think that trend is all that different from p2p games. If a new good mmorpg comes around, they will continue to play it. If a new mmorpg turns up and it's not good, they will usually abandon it, but keep in mind that what that target audience things is good is entirely different from what you and I think is good.
All information that you have mentionned concerning F2Ps are in most case, false. You have yet to provide proofs of what you said to back you up.
We have provided all the information we needed so far to discredit all your misconception and you have yet to answer our questions. Stop twisting facts around and bring us some proofs.
Why are you asking individuals if they pay in f2p games or not. What does it matter. There are polls for this kind of things.
Here is a link to money spend poll for atlantica online:
http://www.myatlanticaonline.com/component/content/article/1-general-discussion/38-money-spent-poll-results
There is also xfire to have a bad estimate if people even play f2p games in the western world.
But the main thing is in the end some games f2p and some are p2p. And it will most likely stay that way.
Some games is more profitable if it's f2p. And some games is more profitable if it's p2p. It depends on the game.
Why are you asking individuals if they pay in f2p games or not. What does it matter. There are polls for this kind of things.
Here is a link to money spend poll for atlantica online:
http://www.myatlanticaonline.com/component/content/article/1-general-discussion/38-money-spent-poll-results
There is also xfire to have a bad estimate if people even play f2p games in the western world.
But the main thing is in the end some games f2p and some are p2p. And it will most likely stay that way.
Some games is more profitable if it's f2p. And some games is more profitable if it's p2p. It depends on the game.
I don't want statistics, I want personal experience. This thread was made to get your opinions, not other peoples opinions or statistics. If you can not say what your experience in gaming is, your just running this topic around in circles.
One thing about many arguments on these boards are players hiding by statistics and other people's opinions. You ARE the statistic! Give your input and experience. Every player has a story, give it. Don't say what other players do or think or make an argument based upon what statistics say without including your own opinion and input. You are the gamer, you are the player, you are statistic, you make gaming what it is, not someone else, you!
I stated what I like and what I don't like, I've made known my own opinion. I've stated what I play and what I don't play and why. I stated what I pay and what I'm willing to pay and what I'm not willing to pay for. It's not hard to do the same.
If someone asks you, "What is your favorite color?" and you say, "Well statistics say that the color blue is a favorite among single men." that doesn't answer the question it just shows avoidance.
I want players to open up about their experience not to shut down their opinions but to expose a growing issue in our payment model for f2p and p2p games. We can't do this if we keep avoiding the answers. I don't mind hearing that you enjoy f2p and why you do, but I would as much as dislike a p2p player giving me statistics on what other people feel about p2p games. Give your experience and at most the testimony of people or players you know.
I have the right to like what I want!
Nothing is free. either you pay to keep servers up, or you'll pay for stuff... (hence keeping servers up)...
"nerf rock, paper is working as intended."
- Scissors.
Head Chop
Then why is it wrong to use statistics? We are also part of those statistics. (and for some reasons you appear to be avoiding my posts and I find this funny. )
Anyway, you may have given your opinion on P2P but you have yet to bring non-false information concerning your dislike for F2P.
Then why is it wrong to use statistics? We are also part of those statistics. (and for some reasons you appear to be avoiding my posts and I find this funny. )
Anyway, you may have given your opinion on P2P but you have yet to bring non-false information concerning your dislike for F2P.
Is there a problem with me not liking f2p games. A lot of people dislike f2p games. I personally do not believe in paying items or resources that give you an unfair advantage in a game. Also, I do not like the communities f2p games attract. I have the right to that opinion and I know a lot of players that share the same perspective. This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
I have the right to like what I want!
well, for me, eventually the winner will be: The single player game companies. Unless a mmo game comes out that will hit me so much that I never want to play another. I have hopes for TSW and The white wolf game that CCP is supposedly working on, but I am getting older and it is a countdown now to see if those games come out while I still want to play.
I have no problem playing single player games, and since most stratgy games, which I love, are single player or limited multi-player, I will always have games to play while waiting for the "Perfect" MMO. The closest to a "Perfect" game so far, in my opinion, is EVE. My problem with EVE is that it makes me so competitive that my friends want to kick my posterior. So I don't play it(friends are more important than games,lol).
See this is the issue I exposed about p2p games. I feel the same way partially. The only problem is I DON'T like f2p games or paying to progress in a game as it is considered cheating by many that support p2p games also feel the same way and despise the f2p, "item mall" option. What I do agree is that I believe a lot of p2p gamers want and even need more payment flexibility so they do not have to dedicate their lives and finances to one game.
There are obvious different ways RMT can be handled. Selling content piece-wise (buying adventure packs) should have NO fairness concern (at least reasonable people would agree). Selling potions .. .a little even when potions can be acquired by some other means. Top level epics is another story. The choice is NOT 1 or 0 but there is a spectrum.
But the larger issue is that "cheating" is what is accepted by the public, and not you. If a company sells power items in an item mall, and becomes wildly successful, there is no reason why they should not do it because a few players don't like it. You can't please everyone anyway.
In the company point of view, financial success is what counts.
Also helps prove my point. Most players pay nothing to play and when they do it's a dime in the bucket.
What point? Most players cost the developer NOTHING to support. Electrons are pretty much free.
Look at DDO. Its SUBSCRIPTION rate goes up by 40% after turning F2P. It works for them. Sure, a game like WOW would like to get $15 off its 11M players .. because it can.
For games like ROM, DDO, Maple Story, F2P works .. they are all (except DDO .. the jury is still out because it just turned F2P) commercial success. It really does NOT matter if most player pays nothing, as long as they can attract ENOUGH players who do.
This is a temporal solution not long term. Any solution gained in desperation is temporal. What is necessary is a permanent fix. D&D was suffering, they are only suffering a lot less... For now...
You don't know that. A 40% increase sounds like a lot to me and it really depends on whether they are making enough money to survive. If they do, it is not temporary. Entertainment products don't last forever anyway so a "permanent fix" talk is not very relevant. If DDO last a few more years and make some money for the developer, it is a WIN.
And you don't know they are not making money right now.
There are also big successes like Maple Story & ROM. Those seem to be doing good business. ROM is coming out with expansions and stuff. Something has to fund that. I highly doubt RMT is a "temporary solultion" for these games.
well, for me, eventually the winner will be: The single player game companies. Unless a mmo game comes out that will hit me so much that I never want to play another. I have hopes for TSW and The white wolf game that CCP is supposedly working on, but I am getting older and it is a countdown now to see if those games come out while I still want to play.
I have no problem playing single player games, and since most stratgy games, which I love, are single player or limited multi-player, I will always have games to play while waiting for the "Perfect" MMO. The closest to a "Perfect" game so far, in my opinion, is EVE. My problem with EVE is that it makes me so competitive that my friends want to kick my posterior. So I don't play it(friends are more important than games,lol).
The MMO market has been growing through the years (and a lot thanks to WOW). So there is no reason to believe everyone will go back to play SP games. Plus, you are NOT the market. Whatever YOU like is like a small part of the statistics. CCP is a niche company. For example, AION, a much newer game, has MORE impact on the market than Eve in all its years.
Then why is it wrong to use statistics? We are also part of those statistics. (and for some reasons you appear to be avoiding my posts and I find this funny. )
Anyway, you may have given your opinion on P2P but you have yet to bring non-false information concerning your dislike for F2P.
Is there a problem with me not liking f2p games. A lot of people dislike f2p games. I personally do not believe in paying items or resources that give you an unfair advantage in a game. Also, I do not like the communities f2p games attract. I have the right to that opinion and I know a lot of players that share the same perspective. This is my experience, input and opinion. I've given suggestions on how f2p could be improved but I don't have all the answers, that's what this thread is about. If you have a problem with p2p games, you can give your opinion and suggestion what can change to improve the market.
Now that is an opinion. Previous things you mentionned such as "F2P are a temporary business model to be doomed in the future" or "You have to Pay To Win" are false information though (this is not a quote).
But honestly, the F2P system works extremely well that was created to fit a different audience. Your suggestions would destroy this purpose sadly.
As for what this thread is technically about, it's P2P vs. F2P, not what can we do to improve the F2P system. Each systems have their pros and cons and that's fine this way. There is no true winner as it is only a matter of taste/preference.
As you mentionned,many F2P games often attracts a younger audience and I agree this is a huge turn off. As for Item Mall, most shops will only sell items that enhance your gameplay but does not break the game (EXP Scroll, stronger healing potions, pets,etc) but it is true that some F2P titles will sell stronger gear and that is much closer to Pay To Win (but most of them are not MMORPGs, like Rakion, Gunbound, Combat Arms). It is also becoming more common to see companies allowing players to sell cash shop items they bought with real money to other players through in-game currency. This way, even non-mall users may benefit from the cash shop.
Few exemples:
Dungeon Fighter. All avatar items can be sold throught in-game currency.
Mabinogi: While mounts cannot be sold to other players, some mounts allows you to give a ride to 1 extra player. There are also many other items sold such as Party Feathers which revives the whole party, dye ampoule to change your clothes color, etc. All these can be traded through in-game currency.
As for P2P, well this has been said countless time already but "Time" plays is a major factor. While some would prefer playing a P2P, paying $15 a month when they can only play during the week-end may seem like a waste. (This is only an exemple). On the other hand, it's worth the $15 if you can play for a longer period of time.
This is actually why I like the D&DO business model. If you can't play a lot, then you can simply buy a Zone and once you have completed the said Zone well you can buy a new one. If you can play a lot, then you can just subs and get full access to the game. Wizard101 also uses the same system and I'm pretty sure more games in the future will use similar system as it appeal to both the hardcore and casual audience without modifying the EXP rates like WoW did over the many patches and expansions.
well, for me, eventually the winner will be: The single player game companies. Unless a mmo game comes out that will hit me so much that I never want to play another. I have hopes for TSW and The white wolf game that CCP is supposedly working on, but I am getting older and it is a countdown now to see if those games come out while I still want to play.
I have no problem playing single player games, and since most stratgy games, which I love, are single player or limited multi-player, I will always have games to play while waiting for the "Perfect" MMO. The closest to a "Perfect" game so far, in my opinion, is EVE. My problem with EVE is that it makes me so competitive that my friends want to kick my posterior. So I don't play it(friends are more important than games,lol).
The MMO market has been growing through the years (and a lot thanks to WOW). So there is no reason to believe everyone will go back to play SP games. Plus, you are NOT the market. Whatever YOU like is like a small part of the statistics. CCP is a niche company. For example, AION, a much newer game, has MORE impact on the market than Eve in all its years.
Guess I hit a nerve there fella. I did say that they would win FOR ME. I never said I was the market, nor are you. What you like is also a small part of the statistics. You might think Aion has had more impact, but everyone I know who has bought the game - about a dozen friends, have cancelled their subs cause they thought it was boring. So in the end each of us has... our opinions. Good luck on your attitude problem.
So what are we discussing here. I thought the topic says P2P vs F2P.
Ok, but read the title which you creat. And read the first and last paragraph of thread which you creat.
Where does it say this thread is about ways to improve f2p games.
Ok, but read the title which you creat. And read the first and last paragraph of thread which you creat.
Where does it say this thread is about ways to improve f2p games.
If you don't care about adding suggestions, don't. I don't care but give an opinion other than someone elses. If you think f2p will win, you can give your input why, it's cool. I don't know who will win if there will be a win but as I stated before, I believe there is a problem with the current business model for f2p and p2p.
I have the right to like what I want!
Ok, but read the title which you creat. And read the first and last paragraph of thread which you creat.
Where does it say this thread is about ways to improve f2p games.
If you don't care about adding suggestions, don't. I don't care but give an opinion other than someone elses. If you think f2p will win, you can give your input why, it's cool. I don't know who will win if there will be a win but as I stated before, I believe there is a problem with the current business model for f2p and p2p.
Ok, so there isn't really a topic we are discussing here. You just want to hear people's opinion on fp2 and p2p model.
Guess I hit a nerve there fella. I did say that they would win FOR ME. I never said I was the market, nor are you. What you like is also a small part of the statistics. You might think Aion has had more impact, but everyone I know who has bought the game - about a dozen friends, have cancelled their subs cause they thought it was boring. So in the end each of us has... our opinions. Good luck on your attitude problem.
LOL .. you and your friends. You have NO IDEA what statistiscs means. Aion has an impact is NOT an opinion. It is numbers.
Here it is:
http://www.examiner.com/x-20129-Denver-Games--Gear-Examiner~y2009m9d14-Aion-catching-up-to-WoW-35-million-subscribers-in-Asia-countries-so-far
It has 3.5M subscribers in Asia. That is 10x Eve numbers. And we haven't even count the US YET.
First of all the 3.5M is unconfirmed.
Second of all even if Aion have 3.5M subscriber 5 month ago with it's first release in China, you don't know how many they have now.
This is a bit offtopic though.