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MMOs, PvP and the History of Games
nexus1g
Member Posts: 172
Board games have always been PvP and people love them. Whether or not they win or lose they still have fun (for the most part). The portion of the community that despises PvP, most likely, enjoys a good Monopoly game, and they don't feel they wasted hours of time just because they lost. So why is this different for an MMO?
For those who are against PvP are against it for a single reason: they feel it's unfair. Of course, they have every opportunity to make a character equal in abilities and power, but they still view it as unfair. So what's unfair about it? I think it's the fast-paced action of PvP. Board games are slow, allow for a process of thought and careful planning and moving whereas MMOs don't. MMOs require thought and planning in PvP, but you have to think and respond quickly. Some people find this situation stressful, unnecessary and unfair.
That said, there's something more to the mindset against PvP and that's the fact that these are video games. Video games are classically, with few exceptions, man vs. machine. Has this possibly set a standard for what a video game should be? People think subjectively and relatively. They have an expectation going into anything and have a very difficult time viewing anything objectively. When you spend a significant amount of time playing video games where your only opponent is a program with a poor excuse for an intelligence, that becomes the expectation. When people are suddenly thrown into the mix together in a video game that features open PvP, the "this is different" alarm is set off. When the realized difference is combined with a negative affect like losing your items, time, etc., people begin to think of it not as a standard game where you pit your wits and skills against another player.
What's your thoughts on this? Do you agree? Do you disagree? Why or why not? What are you own thoughts on why people are against PvP? Who do you think is most against PvP vs. those who are for PvP? Are you, yourself, for or against a game with an open PvP setting? I'm interested on what each individual has to say on the subject.
Comments
It is time and money.
A game of monopoly will last for one to two hours, if you lose you've had a good laugh with your friends and everything goes back to where it was at the start of the game.
In an MMO, you invest hundreds of hours in your character and items and pay to have those things through your subscription fee each month. Now if you lose in a PvP MMO with item loss or experience loss, you are not going back to where you started at the beginning of your PvP session, you are potentially going back dozens if not hundreds of hours.
This is why most people don't like to lose anything in PvP, because the penalty is too high. If you lost at most a couple of hours of work, and those two hours were the time you invested in the PvP in the first place, then no one would really complain about it. But currently you lose more than just the time you spend PvPing, you lose the time you put in before it and for potentially unrelated activties (PvE, Crafting, etc).
I think also many people equate MMO PvP with Ganking or Greifing.
It's because all games are overly gear-centric. If a game had relyed more on player-crafted gear it wouldn't be as shunned upon, especially not with a proper flagging system for criminals. In such a case you might have lost maybe 15-45 minutes of gold-farming which isn't really that big of a deal
[quote]Originally posted by nexus1g
Video games are classically, with few exceptions, man vs. machine.[/b][/quote]
A lot of games offer PvP interaction: Mario Kart, fighting games like Street Fighter, all "sports" game... Even online, lots of "solo" games offer high socres from all-over the world, or on facebook you kind of fight or at least compared yourself to your friends.
Besides waht has been said above about the price paid in hours, you should also considered the actual price, most notably in "F2P". You generally quickly realised that if you spend money you can own about anyone your level who isn't paying.
In a way, the non-paying customer has no business "whining": he decided to use the game as free, it's normal that paying customers get some perks. On the other hand, these games are advertised as free. Why should you have to pay to be competitive then? Isn't it misleading advertising?
But then, that's more of a f2p debat than pvp one.
I disagree very much.
I enjoy board games. And most are, as you say PvP there-can-only-be-one winner type.
I despise PvP'ing in video games, at least, I hate participating in it.
Why? First off, board games are meant to be short-term. You play a game of Monopoly or Risk, a winner is determined and then the game is over. MMOs are not like this. Your character is persistant, and no one likes to lose repeatedly.
PvP is unfair. Completely. Why? First off, gear. If you wanted to make a "fair" pvp match, the players should be geared identically, including identical stats, race bonuses, etc. Anything less and an argument can be made for balance.
The second and more dominant reason pvp is unfair is physical skill. I've been playing video games for more than 30 years, and my reflexes ain't what they used to be. Some of these guys, especially FPS junkies, and target and head-shot you in about one second flat. When I play single-player FPS's, I always play them at normal. Hard/extreme settings are for those junkies.
People often lament that video games are not more about skill. The problem is, they're almost always referring to physical skills, targetting, quick moves, etc., and not strategic skill.
Now, create a video game which, like a board game, removes all elements of physical skill and trades them for strategic/planning skill, and you're getting closer to fair. Remove random elements like dice rolls or lucky card selections and you're getting closer to fair.
Obviously, removing all these elements would increase the blandness of the game, but it would steer it closer to equal footing.
Chess is a good example of a very fair game. No random gusts of wind, no lucky dice rolls (aside from who goes first), exact same starting positions, etc.
Some personal points: I realize these are highly subjective, but when it comes to PvP, I've always felt that anyone who initiates a non-consentual fight with a much weaker opponent, one who has little to no chance of winning, is a bully. Justify it how you will, but that's how I feel. In the majority of PvP play, there is no prize, no exp, no loot for beating up that much weaker player. You've only succeeded in making that other real person's playtime less fun. Good for you.
I also recognize that this is not the way of all PvP'ers. That some are only interested in real challenges against non-AI opponents. I have no hate for those players, enjoy your game as I enjoy mine.
I'm an avid fan of PvP, but I understand the view of those that don't enjoy it.
When playing Monopoly, to use your example, you are often playing with friends or family. The competition is a more playful competition. It is also an arena where you know each competitor's 'ceiling of pain.' I don't play to crush when playing a board game with my Wife, but when playing against my best friend I'm out for blood - one of us is going to be gloating at the end of that game.
I'm sure if I ended a board game with my Wife by saying "Yeah, that's right... who's your Daddy, bitch?" it would be the last board game we played. However, it isn't uncommon for a game of Axis and Allies among my friends to end with one person standing up, arms raised, proclaiming "Is there no one on this planet to even challenge me?" Yes, geeky, i know, but nonetheless it's one of the many lines that usually come out during the victory dance.
Others aren't online for a competitive game. They are online for co-op gameplay or socializing or just to do their own thing. People play MMOs for a range of reasons, and it seems only a small percentage are playing to compete with others.
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I'm an avid fan of PvP, but I understand the view of those that don't enjoy it.
When playing Monopoly, to use your example, you are often playing with friends or family. The competition is a more playful competition. It is also an arena where you know each competitotr's 'ceiling of pain.' I don't play to crush when playing a board game with my Wife, but when playing against my best friend I'm out for blood - either Doug or I is going to be gloating at the end of that game.
I'm sure if I ended a board game with my Wife by saying "Yeah, that's right... who's your Daddy, bitch?" it would be the last board game we played. However, it isn't uncommon for a game of Axis and Allies among my friends to end with one person standing up, arms raised, proclaiming "Is there no one on this planet to even challenge me?" Yes, geeky, i know, but nonetheless it's one of the many lines that usually come out during the victory dance.
Others aren't online for a competitive game. They are online for co-op gameplay or socializing or just to do their won thing. People play MMOs for a range of reasons, and it seems only a small percentage are playing to compete with others.
Hehe. This made me chuckle. I like your style.
Actually, such a game exists, its called EVE and its a lot of fun IMO. Of course, as you followed up, these very elements that I find enjoyable make the game bland to other players looking for a more tactile experience.
Board games are PVP, and there isn't a parent here who hasn't had to "throw" a board game to their child in order to keep from discouraging them.
In most boardgames the outcome is mostly a matter of chance dice rolls, and therefore on any given day, anyone can win.
MMORPG's aren't like that, especially in PVP, and the closer it is to twitched based, even less so.
Also, as others have mentioned, many people play MMO's for run and to acheive their own goals and agenda, and not have that plan interruppted by another person because it amuses them.
Finally, there's almost no game that keeps PVP fair. They almost all permit a person to kill another when that person is at a total disadvantage in either levels or combat position, and that takes away the fun for many people.
Don't tell me you gank lower level players, or those engaged in some PVP npc and then say you are all about PVP, just isn't true.
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I disagree that people view videogames as being inherently PvE, remember Street Fighter II? On the other hand MMOs are descended from pnp RPG games like D&D, not board games, which werent exactly PvP centric. Im all for diversity, having PvE servers lets carebears have their own turf. Just my two cents, really not interested in getting into a PvE vs PvP debate.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
This is why I believe Items should drop more frequently except for really special ones. Gear should be their to enhance you as a player and as a individual, not determine the entire numerical worth of you as a player.
Of course, some games such as Ultima Online and ShadowBane had developers that actually had evolved brain cells.
I think this is true. Also, if you are sitting down to a board game, two to one you are sitting down with known people, friends and family. It's all for a good laugh for the most part with the exception of some people who actually have issues losing.
In an mmo you are dealing with people who might be rude or just bad winners or losers.
Most people will not enjoy being out in the game world and thinking about what they are about to do or are doing when all of a sudden 4 players jump out from beyond their sight, gank them and then dance on their corpse. It tends to be less about having a good time and more about some people needing to bolster their own self worth at the expense of another, especially if the other never had a fair shot in that particular circumstance.
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I take it you've never listened to Dane Cook,
This is anybody 4 hours into a game of Monopoly "F*#$ This game grandma! its 4 AM and where do you keep getting those pink fiftys?! Grandpa! NANNA IS A CHEATING WH()RE!!!!!"
Now while its a good laugh, its closer to the truth then not...
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Players generally dislike PvP in online games for a couple of key reasons, among them:
Inherent Imbalance: the basic formula for all MMOs is that time played = advancement (yeah sure "skill" or clever play helps, but generally speaking time=power), so in most MMOs there is rarely any "balance" in the PvP fights. The best builds, gear sets etc for PvP take time to acquire that many players don't have to invest. This is further complicated by most MMOs being all about levels and stats, if a group of say 20ths had a chance against a 60th, they might be more willing to try.
Network connections/nature of the combats: no one likes losing because the connection dropped or they lagged suddenly; in many systems the "lag bomb" is viewed as a valid battle technique. Ludicrous combat techniques like "bunny-hopping" and circle-strafing combined with a lack of collision detection add to the silliness/idiocy factor in many systems.
Badly implemented flagging and consequence systems in many games are either exploitable or allow totally one-sided ganking that is unenjoyable for the gankee, often with no effective controls or penalties to the ganker.
Risk/reward: very very few current PvP systems offer any significant reward to incentivize PvP. Epeen polishing things like titles, status boards and flashy ego items don't really draw people who wouldn't otherwise pvp.
Also because developers make classes different and because we players want that, even with equal gear and good builds there's still gross imbalances between classes. Just look at WoW/WAR/AoC/DAoC or other games with PvP in them.
Lots of people don't like PvP because they tried it and decided they're tired of getting their faces owned, tired of shedding tears, tired of losing, cause they suck at every game they try to play.
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The OP does raise a valid point. Games before video games were all about competition. There was no such thing as a "single player" (solitaire I suppose, but the point stands) game or co-operative game. Typically, games meant direct competition against other human beings. If I'm blatantly wrong, someone please correct me.
Let's look at sports, as they were the most common type of game people would play with one another before video games. They're competitive "PvP" type games. I just can't think of a single sport that isn't directly or indirectly competitive.
Throughout history games have always been about competition, yet in the 20th century, suddenly we have this massive influx of people who would rather not compete. There's now this huge emphasis placed upon winning and the value of losing, ironically, has been lost. School track meets now give ribbons to everyone just for taking part. Soccer leagues give everyone a trophy at the end of the season. Everybody is a winner: That's the attitude I see in MMOs, as well as the western world in general today.
I'm not saying that I don't enjoy co-operative games, I just don't fully understand people who don't enjoy competition. When did the paradigm shift occur? Why did it occur, and why do so many people shy away from competition when that is truly the foundation of gaming?
On Monopoly
You're not going to play Monopoly with Grandma anymore if she gets a starting bonus of 2 million Monopoly Dollars because she has 200+ games played compared to your 10+. Such a mechanic will have ruined the competitive and skill-based nature of Monopoly (if the random chance element hadn't already hurt it enough; Monopoly isn't the deepest of boardgames.)
Instead of having a chance to win each game by skill, you have no hope of winning. This does not make for close, competitive gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A lot of the people dislike PvP because they're simply not good at it. With that said, a lot of people who like PvP are not good at it either. Problem for these folks is that playing against human subjects mean they can't use the predictable winning strategy every single time. Some people can't think up of new things to do fast in their heads, some simply don't have the twitch reflex to press a different button, let alone doing both at the same time.
A lot of the people who thinks PvP is "unfair" are people who actually like PvP, but simply not good at it. So they try to make developers "balance" things out to a point that they have a chance at winning.
Bottom line is people don't like to lose, especially when they're playing games. What do you think people do when they can't beat a mob after trying multiple times? They hop onto the boards to complain and/or quit. PvE is designed so you can win, therefore they make people feel good. PvP on the other hand, when you aren't good at it, you lose and you lose a lot. Many people simply can't take losing and they find no fun in losing. This is also why in Realm vs Realm games, winning side is almost always the larger populated side, because people jump to the winning side. People just don't like to lose, especially in games.
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PvP is greatly flawed in MMOs. One reason I didn't see anyone bring up yet is the asininely large amount of over-specialization that is crammed down the players' throats by developer and community alike. In a game of rock, paper scissors for example, you are able to use all three, and you pick your strategy in hopes of beating someone else who can also use all three. But in MMOs are you only either rock, paper, or scissors all the time.
In MMOs this often translates to the Crafter who has little to no combat abilities, and as thus, is more or less a sitting duck and free game for griefers or whomever.
MMORPG PVP sucks because of non-skill factors. That's what it boils down to.
You can win world PVP fights simply because more players of your side logged on than the enemy. You can play terribly and still win. You can be the most amazing player ever, and still lose. Population Imbalance a huge, influential non-skill factor and utterly ruins competitive play.
Time Investment is the other big one. You can play terribly, but if your character is geared you can still win.
I try to figure out design solutions for a lot of things, but MMORPG PVP is one of the few things I gave up on trying to solve. Not because their isn't a solution, but because MMORPG players just don't seem to want one. And this is likely because the majority of players aren't skilled but these games give them an indirectly-influenceable factor (Time Investment) which allows them to win despite being unskilled.
In a truly skill-based game, you end up with the 20/80 problem (20% of the players win 80% of games). So MMORPGs try to work around that with playfield-leveling mechanics like time investment. This demolishes any sense of competitive play, but seems to keep things relatively popular.
For now I mostly seek PVP from RTS/FPS/Fighting games (and the occasional board game like Caylus; or a Magic:TG match.) These are games where non-skill factors are weak and in some cases entirely non-existant. For me, that makes them entirely more enjoyable. I always win when I play better than my opponent, and I always lose when I play worse than my opponent.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Some people can't stand a lose or that someone is better than they are. And until they are starting to win it takes some time.. Also some people just aren't good enough to be successful in pvp and they feel that, so they just stays away from that and enjoys pve. That's one of few reasons.
i had ran groups dominate in all 3 realms of daoc
so thats not true
fact of the matter is, these games are simple to play and learn
but difficult to master
Who's talking about realms? Each realm had their own "imba" and "crap" classes.
I think it's about mixing co-op play, and competitive play. It doesn't always work.
True, very few board games are co-op play.
But the role playing game that inspired the entire COMPUTER RPG industry, and subsequently the MMORPG, Dungeons and Dragons, was Co-op.
The "players" were all on one side, playing against the Dungeon Master.
Then we move into the realm of the single player computer game, and the Player is playing against the Computer.
Then there's the feature of the Role PLaying game that is unique. This is character progression. Generally, players are building a character, and they concentrate on this activity.
Player versus Player can disrupt this activity.
Think about it compared to a First Person Shooter. What would disrupt you from the main activitiy of the game? Nothing. The entire game is about killing other players. Even if you add in some character progression, all you are doing is killing other players, so being killed doesn't disrupt you from anything.
But PvP is added on TOP of the normal RPG. So you're doing TWO activities. One, building your character. IN a typical MMO this is doing PvE, or in something like EVE you are mining.
So PvP in a game where you play against the computer to build your character is sort of like playing a game of tackle catch. I'm throwing the ball to you, you're throwing the ball to me, then someone comes up from behind you and tackles you.
You'd be going, WTF? Are we playing catch or football, I'm confused.