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Mats Persson´s view on the future of MO!
adrala
Member Posts: 148
From MO´s official forums:
I'm very sorry if I expressed myself that unclear. I'm a modest Swede and although I'm very very proud of our game and really believe in it, I still find it hard to put up a "confident" attitude by saying our game will succeed no matter what. That doesn't mean I don't believe it will - I just happen to be raised in a community where modesty is seen as a virtue and where that kind of boldness is seen as boasting or a need for self-assertion
One reason I say I "hope" people will see beyond glitches and incomplete features is because they will be there no matter how much work we put in. No MMO has ever released glitch-free or promised-feature-complete, and there are a ton of reasons for that. That is not the same as saying we don't do our utmost in sorting them out or working overtime to get everything in and working. In other words, if I were to ignore this fact or full-heartedly believe that MO will be the only exception to the rule, it would be either hypocrisy, false marketing or extremely naive on my part. I will try to explain the other, major, reason further down.
I'm very sorry if this gave the impression that I doubt our game, because I definitely don't. I hate to see that some people jump to the conclusion that I "set the bar" by admitting there will be bugs and unexploited potential at launch. I also think it's sad that people get the impression that we don't care about how "incomplete" or "unpolished" our game will be, or that this means it will lack in features. I do however understand why you would believe such a thing, because my post is rather confusing, and isn't "incomplete" the same as "lacking in features"?
Please let me try to explain how I meant that MO will be "unpolished" or "incomplete" according to some, and also why I see this as a strength rather than a weakness. This will hopefully also explain why I spoke about these matters as "carelessly" as I did in my first post:
Unlike a static game with very regulated boundaries and limits (most games are static), Mortal Online is a game that want to inspire "emergent game-play" in a sandbox environment. Basically, what this means is that we as developers come up with "tools" that you as a player can use in the game, but instead of playing it safe by implementing a ton of restrictions for what you can do with these tools and not, or by hard-coding the tools to only work in a very limited way, we want to give you as much freedom as possible.
This approach means we already get to see stuff in the Beta on a daily basis we had never planned or could have foreseen. Which is the point. I will continue to use pets as a rather simple example to explain what I mean: Some uses of pets make for great mechanics (tamed creature-duels and tournaments, or ordering your creature to protect NPC's), some are not very good or useless (ordering your creature to attack loot bags or ordering your creature to follow itself), and some are "breaking stuff" or may be considered "bugs" (ordering your creature to attack itself). We try to look at all the ways players use the tools and then decide how to dynamically evolve the game around them. However, when a system like this is combined with several other dynamic systems, like mounts, housing and flagging, the possibilities become incalculable (mounts will be pets and may be ordered around as such, mounts and pets have flags, houses recognize flags, a pet may be set to protect a house or a mount and so on). There will be "scenarios" which will take months or years to find, and for each new system we introduce the complexity and possibilities will multiply. Which is the point of a dynamic, open-ended system.
Now, what I'm saying is that this means it's extremely hard or impossible to fully "polish" or "make safe" an open-ended game like Mortal Online, as "polished" in this case often means "restrictions on actions" - the opposite of our design approach; I'd rather leave the option for ordering a creature to attack a loot bag than write a case-specific exception, or design pets so that they can only interact with other players or creatures, as someday the "attack a loot bag scenario" may make sense and have a purpose (for instance when we have traps for bags). Right now it just looks like a "bug", at least according to some, and have been frequently reported as such, but that doesn't mean we look at it as a bug. To conclude: an evolving system like this can never be "bug-free", because it's a built-in mechanic of the system itself.
Another thing that I know will happen is that people used to theme-park MMO's with their automated systems, will find Mortal Online "unpolished" or "lacking even basic features". Take for instance looting. I read a review of a certain full-loot game where the (professional) reviewer complained that he had to drag every object manually when looting. This "lack" of an auto-loot button "that is the standard in modern games" contributed to his impressions of an "unpolished" game. I can't speak for that other game, but reviewers will be sure to find the exact same thing in MO. It's a carefully chosen mechanic to prevent people from running in amidst fighters and looting the dead bodies, or the big creature they just killed, by a simple mouse-click. Manually having to click or drag items will make certain you need some skill and experience to know what to quickly loot and what to ignore before you run away. It's a full loot game where small mechanics like these can make or break a lot, remember?
This is just one example of many, many where I know MO will take a beating, due to a lack of understanding of what kind of game it is. If even professional reviewers don't understand stuff like this, what will casual players think? Does that mean the game really is "unpolished"? No, not if you ask me.
Simply put, due to the free design-approach and the uncommon features of the game, I definitely think there's a big risk users and reviewers coming directly from more restricted game environments will find Mortal among the most "unpolished" or "incomplete" MMO's ever released. And there's a risk the majority that tries or reviews MO will be just those players, writing negative reviews or trash-talking the game. That is not the same thing as MO actually being the most "unpolished" game ever released. Neither is it the same thing as MO being the most buggy MMO ever released, which I never said. Neither is it the same thing as saying it will lack features, or that the core features we have said we aim for won't be there.
In the end, if you've managed to read this far, I apologize for the confusion around my post but I also hope it has served some purpose. I want you to understand what MO is, and it's easy to get lost in this work and thereby presuppose that people will understand where you're coming from.
Comments
Very good post imho
Not the kind of attitude I would want from a game developer.
Not to mention, he sure was optimistic about the state of the game while taking the pre-orders and collecting peoples cash.
What happened to him saying, "Most of the features are complete, and during the beta we are testing them one at a time, thus the reason for little content all at once, during beta."
I had a feeling he was full of shit then. It's funny how many forum posters argued in Matt's defense, that the game is done, and there is no need to be concerned.
Everyday that passes, more people get refunds from thier credit card companies, and this game bleeds out a few more potential customers. I do not think this game is going to have a very active population shortly after launch, with them releasing a game in beta state, and charging more then any MMO ever released.
If it's anywhere close to its current state when it launches, It will be plain boring for the masses. All I can say without breaking the NDA.
He is talking about another dumb Darkfall review who's reviewer didnt even have the common sense to perceive the loot all button has absolutely no place in a PVP mmo (the fact that it can be exploited is another matter)
Mats gets a high five from me on this one...on the other hand I stated before and I shall say it again: the game wont be ready for 1 year or so.
yep..people should read this..trolls also
i can appreciate OP stance. too many devs hype up their product. it's refreshing to see realistic stance. personally, i see no other way. too much hype would bring too many people expecting 5 years of WoW gloss. MO has best chance as ground based EVE, which means starting slow and small, and picking up along the way. certainly a game to keep an eye on.
Exactly...
I like the fact that he's not cocky like youknowwho. It's refreshing, as you said and it gives me confidence that in the long run this game WILL be feature complete and also a blast to play.
Good and informative post! I have only been half interested in the game but still good to see the dev's take time to explain themselves instead of cryptic messages. Heck, the Aion dev's wont even give a cryptic message!
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/24840-can-sv-deliver-what-they-promise-people-expecting-too-much-3.html#post564522
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/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
One thing this game will never get accused of is being a WoW clone. I think the genre will be amped for an MMO like MO. A lot of people are looking for more depth in an MMO with deeper gameplay. MO, to me, promises this.
That quoted text from Matts was a response to a friend of mine slamming his comments about the game releasing in a buggy state and him giving the impression of not giving a damn and coming off like some 20 something with no business experience at all.
Nice to see he can recognize when he made a mistake unlike certain other devs cough--Lord Tacos--cough
BTW he is a 20 something with no business experience so that part was accurate... and that is my biggest concern with SV.
A lot of people are just sick of waiting. They are hearing bad things from the Beta testers, looking at the timeline and realizing their hard-earned money could be spent elsewhere. The economy sucks, and if people are looking for something to play now, they will get a refund and move on.
I've always thought the goals for this game were fantastic. Even though I don't particularly like fantasy games, I was willing to try it out and see if this true sandbox could take off, at least with a healthy niche community. However, many of us have been waiting for something decent to play for a very long time, and we waited even longer for some of these indy games to release.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I don't think anyone really cares what a dev thinks atm. Although there seems to be more to this post than just a current " state of the game ". ( looks more like a reply ) However, I definitely don't like how he simply downplays another person's opinion on looting mechanics. Despite the appeal that manual looting has it is definitely one of those mechanics that needs to be scrutinized very carefully before implementing.
He also doesn't seem to understand that if players are reporting errors that are indeed not errors that means there is a severe lack of communication between the player base and devs. If it is not an error tell them it is not an error. Simple problem and simple solution. Hopefully things can change for the better in upcoming months.
You are wrong.
While big part of the devs are arround 24-27 yo, Mats Persson the game designer of MO is in his early 30s and has had previous experience as game designer in mainstream titles.
He has comented several times his experience in this company/s and how he disliked their way of doing things.
BTW here is a funny pic of him during his hobby:
i think you should stick to wow then, people complain that all mmos use the same mechanic over and over again, for once get behind someone who's trying something different. Of course the game is not finished because its not a pre-defined world like regular mmo's, its unpredictable and they cant foresee all the possibilities.
Sorry to disspaoint you, but according to the beta leaks on variuos sites, and 1 beta leaking site which i will not name, this game is nothing of the sort. Unless you call killing people in FP VIEW DEPTH. According to the many beta leaks, the game is in a total shambles and many beta leakers are saying this game needs 1-2 + more years atleast.
Sorry to disspaoint you, but according to the beta leaks on variuos sites, and 1 beta leaking site which i will not name, this game is nothing of the sort. Unless you call killing people in FP VIEW DEPTH. According to the many beta leaks, the game is in a total shambles and many beta leakers are saying this game needs 1-2 + more years atleast.
This again is wrong.
Most leaks are outdated and do not show the current stage of the beta.
Game has improved a lot in terms of stability and new content.
Last patch brought a capital city which honestly blows every other mmo´s city up to date. Both in design and size.
We also got huge improvement in server stability. Server is up almost 24/7.
Taming is in too and even its current stage its the most complete taming system I have ever seen.
Not mentioning new races, mobs, and world desing improvements.
Of course my view may be biased since I am testing the game sicne the beginning.
However most ppl that trash talk MO are either DF angry trolls and kids that preordered the game expecting a free polished game to play and instead got a real beta.
You are free to decide who to believe though
Taking into consideration all top lvl games during their development time, there was NO COMMUNICATION between devs and communities at all.
SV communicates with MO fans all the time, and they do it by themselve. Not by a dedicated PR person.
Do you got the difference now ?
Regarding looting mechanics, this aint a fkin WoW/aion/MUo/AoC, or any other dumbed down and simplified to death 99% automated game.
Every badly thought or implemented mechanic is going to have a huge, negative impact on other game aspects.
Some ppl are just unable to think beyond the standards.
But why are they only whining that another game isn't another dumbed down EQ clone ?
fyi: I'm astonished seeing what games are/were you playing, and for which ones you are waiting. Every one negates another one.
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/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Taking into consideration all top lvl games during their development time, there was NO COMMUNICATION between devs and communities at all.
SV communicates with MO fans all the time, and they do it by themselve. Not by a dedicated PR person.
Do you got the difference now ?
Regarding looting mechanics, this aint a fkin WoW/aion/MUo/AoC, or any other dumbed down and simplified to death 99% automated game.
Every badly thought or implemented mechanic is going to have a huge, negative impact on other game aspects.
Some ppl are just unable to think beyond the standards.
But why are they only whining that another game isn't another dumbed down EQ clone ?
fyi: I'm astonished seeing what games are/were you playing, and for which ones you are waiting. Every one negates another one.
So someone who played and enjoyed UO and wouldnt mind seeing a newer game like it couldnt possible like a game like WoW or EQ2 right? Where do you goons come from?
Lets put this as simple as possible because thats the way it needs to be around here it seems. If MO releases in a bad state then its going to fail. Its that simple. It doesnt matter if the game is different.. This isnt 99 or early 2000s when we would play any crappy MMO just because..
I am leaning toward fail at the moment. And the more I read fanboy comments the closer I get to wishing and wanting for the game to fail. Some of you guys already make people put up red flags when it comes to the quality of the potential community the game will have. Insults left and right like everyone who disagrees with you is somehow a lesser being.
As far as the looting goes.. If its like UO and can be smoothly and quickly then whatever. If its a mess like DF then its dumb and shouldnt be used.
I think this game is going to release with bare and unfinished, unpolished features, a lot of bugs and a lot of exploits.
This is going to make the game suffer, very hard. There's no room for optimism in the MMO genre.
Sorry to disspaoint you, but according to the beta leaks on variuos sites, and 1 beta leaking site which i will not name, this game is nothing of the sort. Unless you call killing people in FP VIEW DEPTH. According to the many beta leaks, the game is in a total shambles and many beta leakers are saying this game needs 1-2 + more years atleast.
This again is wrong.
Most leaks are outdated and do not show the current stage of the beta.
Game has improved a lot in terms of stability and new content.
Last patch brought a capital city which honestly blows every other mmo´s city up to date. Both in design and size.
We also got huge improvement in server stability. Server is up almost 24/7.
Taming is in too and even its current stage its the most complete taming system I have ever seen.
Not mentioning new races, mobs, and world desing improvements.
Of course my view may be biased since I am testing the game sicne the beginning.
However most ppl that trash talk MO are either DF angry trolls and kids that preordered the game expecting a free polished game to play and instead got a real beta.
You are free to decide who to believe though
WRONG, beta leak site im on they post regualr patch notes, and yes they posted the lastest patch notes with that city, and they post regualr videos or screenshots, 95% of the beta leakers on the site slam MO, and the state its currently in. Simple as that, I am not going to post a link to the site, but a google search will most likely bring it up.
I have claimed my hate towards games claiming to be polished for pretty much the very reasons the OP states.
If a game offers almost nothing to screw up,how could it possibly claim to be polished?it is like releasing a game of Yahtzee and go around claiming the game is polished.
BTW..lol...there has been one and ONLY one FFXI released at least in NA fully polished,however in saying that there is again several reasons why and i already eluded to that reason.
My opinion is that you can't really ever have a totally open ended game,not if you are going to include PVP,it does not and will not work.Total open ended games work great for PVE.You ALWAYS need rules in a PVP game,and those rules need to be explained clearly,so players do not jump in and start whining and complaining about the rules.This way by knowing the rule set before you jump in,you have no right to complain,you don't like the setup ,don't play,find a game that matches the rule set you want.
I know a pet system is a huge draw for any game,i don't get the fanatics that must play a pet class in all games,i personally like variety,but oh well to each their own.I think trying to please those players that want a pet class,is almost impossible,they always want the pet on it's own to be the most powerful entity in the game,and then still want their player to be equal to any other player in the game.There is only two types of players,passive and the ones that want to be over powered in every possible way.Trying to please that type of player is as i stated impossible.
What i have seen from my vast experience on gaming sites,is as a dev to not post,as hard as it is,players will only get worse in their complaints.I know i read somewhere that Square Enix has reps reading forums from time to time,but are not allowed to ever post.
In hopes that MO makes it big,you have to realize the market is very thin right now and soon FFXIV will release taking up the last few stragglers lfg.There will always be a decent player base that just follows the hype and jumps from ship to ship,that is why we see so many games have great starts,then drop off fast.As of right now,a developer needs to come up with some great creativity outside the normal way of thinking,yet still cater to the faint of heart,i personally have not seen this creativity apart from playing FFXI and glimpses in other games.
I will share what i believe to be a smart business model,and yes it is one that is not right but it will work to please the superficial gamers.Release a game free to play but limit the advancement be it through levels or however your game works.Make the beginning of the game so easy and high rewards,this keeps the weak gamer interested,then ease in the grind but keep the rewards high,so again the weak gamer does not hit the forums and immediately cry foul on the grind.Then nearing the max level introduce the whole grind,but also introduce intriguing new ideas for grind,not the same old they have been doing up to that point,this helps to keep players interested.An example would be to introduce weapon and gear imbuing,ways to give your player definition and customization.By doing this players are grinding but have two goals now,gear and customization of their player.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
We have here an indy company with highly limited resources and team and I have to admire them for honesty, which 99 % of game industry companies don't have. The problem is that devs' honesty doesn't make a game entertaining and in long run won't stop their gaming community from disintegrating.
Hopefully the basic skeleton of MO will provide players with enough persistent and long term entertainment to keep them going and release constant flow of planned upgrades.
From my experience developers who think about launching a sandbox game seem to overlook the last 10 years of games development. I don't talk about graphics here or special effects, but game content in general. Sandbox is an interesting idea to build ON, but why not evolve it a bit and utilize the ideas from last 10 years ? That's not a problem to make your game more attractive and appealing for different types of players without destroying the sandbox feeling.
I think the devs are simply chewing of more than they can handle. Sandbox game AND forced 1st person view AND full loot in an uncontrolled PvP environment.
Put all of those factors together and they get a small nische audience to begin with and then they need to make it in a good enough state for those few people to stick around. No, I dont think this game will succeed, I hope it will but Darkfall showed me otherwise.
My gaming blog
SV ran out of money and needs to catch up quick in order to make the game playable by launch. I'm not talking about stability, I'm talking about content. There are still serveral key selling features in the game that have not been tested and desperatly need to be tested. Can it be done by Dec? Not if SV wants politics (a huge feature that give players content) to actually work becuae for it to work, there needs to be a way to destory houses in at launch.
Taming is great though, just what I execpted. Still need to test 5 key features though.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
If you hate MO so much, why don't you just get your money back and leave? As people are saying they don't mind giving the money back to you, so why the need to troll this game? Going as far as making beta leak websites for that purpose...
While I'm not currently into MO, it is certainly in my watch list (sandboxes are precious jewels). No matter how bad the current game state is, if you simply dislike being part of it, get your money back and leave it alone while you feel it's incomplete. There are many solid MMOs out there.