With the latest Madden or NBA game, you could question why they're making it. Peddling the same game with new jerseys and team stats. But to say Blizzard is more about the money than the game isn't looking at their history of always making quality games loads of people like and ONLY releasing them when they're ready. How many games get pushed out the door in a beta state? EQ2, WAR, AOC, AO, EVE, DAOC, Tabula Rasa, DF, Horizons...and it goes on and on.
If they're not making a profit, the game isn't going to last. So, you BETTER care a little=)
Originally posted by heremypet I keep seeing all these arguments about "what is best for the profit of the company", or "because that's what makes them the most money". I don't care one whit about the game companies profits, surely they must realize this?
Of course they do. They just don't care. If people will buy it, it's good enough. If they won't, it's not. They don't care how you feel about it except as it affects how you buy it.
All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
The original poster makes a fine point that I think underlines the entire problem with the mmo idustry and people here just are not getting it.
Yes, all companies are in business to make money. Everyone understands that companies are out to make money without it even being said. It is just something that goes unspoken in a discussion like this.
It is HOW they make games that is failing and the results certainly are not making money. Currently game companies are more concerned with making a product that will show a return on investment than they are with making a compelling game. In practice that makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't work in for mmos.
The design process needs to be the exact opposite of that. They need to focus on making a great game first. The question that should be applied to every aspect of the game design should be "Is it fun?". Instead we are getting companies that skip over that simple question and replace it with "Will this make more money".
The result has been a rash of terrible, soulless and uninspired games that fail to meet even initial expectations. How many times do we need to see the same companies repeating the same mistakes over and over again, before companies understand the mmo genre isn't some money tree to be shaken.
The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost. Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.
All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO
As an auditor, I vote not to fire accountants or I would be out of a job In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. Unfortunately, this is the way business is headed and I don't think there is a lot of hope of going back. As soon as the market grew into something worth investing into by big business, its fate was sealed.
The original poster makes a fine point that I think underlines the entire problem with the mmo idustry and people here just are not getting it. Yes, all companies are in business to make money. Everyone understands that companies are out to make money without it even being said. It is just something that goes unspoken in a discussion like this. It is HOW they make games that is failing and the results certainly are not making money. Currently game companies are more concerned with making a product that will show a return on investment than they are with making a compelling game. In practice that makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't work in for mmos. The design process needs to be the exact opposite of that. They need to focus on making a great game first. The question that should be applied to every aspect of the game design should be "Is it fun?". Instead we are getting companies that skip over that simple question and replace it with "Will this make more money". The result has been a rash of terrible, soulless and uninspired games that fail to meet even initial expectations. How many times do we need to see the same companies repeating the same mistakes over and over again, before companies understand the mmo genre isn't some money tree to be shaken.
The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost. Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.
Or maybe, just like making a good movie it's not that easy to make a good MMORPG and they try to do that, but often fail.
I'm pretty sure if they could make a good mMORPG they would, because any idiot knows a good game will make you more money than a bad on.
I"m pretty sure the guys investing millions of dollars are not going, well guys, we could make a good MMORPG. I mean, we know exactly how to do that.
But let's not do that. Instead, let's try to make a bad game that makes up money, because sure, good games make money, but we'd like to see if a crummy bug ridden piece of crap can make money too.
Sure, we've seen that fail countless times, but what the hell. It's only 30 40 million. Let's blow it and see what happens.
All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
I don't think it's as black and white as that. Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience. I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason. That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.
Im pretty sure most people in the gaming industry got in it for the passion. Maybe not the guys at the top, but the ones doing all the gruntwork may wonder every once in a while if they couldnt be doing something that pays better or if its really all worth it just for a shot at one day being able to make their own game.
You may all be somewhat selling the industry short, it really must take some passion for someone to somehow keep going after designing icons for armor pieces day in and out...
Yes, MMOs are a bussiness venture but inovation in any field requires guts. You may have a revolutionary concept brewing, but there really is no way to tell it apart from a bad idea until several millions of dollars have been invested and the concept has been tried. I dont entirely disagree with the OP, yes, MMOs are expensive projects but "playing it safe" on every single choice you must make really defeats the purpose of investing in the first place. Just churning out yet another WOW clone would seem to me a bad bussiness call given the success record of such games. Better to give something new a shot (even if in keeping within some tried concepts) and have at least a chance of hitting the jackpot.
Theres a fine line to walk in between sound bussiness and succesful inovation. Those who do manage are the success stories. IMO it would help if the ones doing the bussiness end of the deal were themselves gamers (which would give them a first hand perspective on wether something works) who were able to take distance and judge an idea for its worth. Its the same in any field, you wouldnt invest on a farm if you didnt know anything about agriculture nor would you get into managing an airline if you had no experience in the field.
Sure, some may argue theres a reason investors use consultants. But youre not a very good investor if you arent able to choose people with the right background to give you sound advice. And judging from the state of the MMO industry we do lack people with hands on knowledge on the bussiness end...
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I dispute the notion that basing every decision in game design on "making a profit" actually makes a profit, or makes sense from a business angle.
First of all, it the goal of these publishers is to make a profit, there are far easier and more profitable ventures to go into than game design. Selling derivitives doesn't require any coding, server space, overhead, customer service, or any of that; and it's a market that is worth more than the entire world's GDP. So if profit was the only motive, game design seems like a far less profitable industry than many.
Second of all, I have to disagree with many of the posters here that say the industry lacks innovation. The problem is that most of the innovation is on the business side, and not the design side. F2P, micro, sponsorship, cross platform capability; all of this stuff is designed to make the MMOs more profitable, but have they succeeded? What have all these "innovations in monetization of online space" really done to wrest away the market share from Blizzard? NOTHING.
Seems to me that the OP has a point: directing game development from the finance and marketing departments--far from making profits--loses profits. That's the lesson the last five years have shown. You can design a good game that's profitable, but designing a profitable game will never be as good (or as profitable) as a game that was designed to be a good game.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Or maybe, just like making a good movie it's not that easy to make a good MMORPG and they try to do that, but often fail. I'm pretty sure if they could make a good mMORPG they would, because any idiot knows a good game will make you more money than a bad on. I"m pretty sure the guys investing millions of dollars are not going, well guys, we could make a good MMORPG. I mean, we know exactly how to do that. But let's not do that. Instead, let's try to make a bad game that makes up money, because sure, good games make money, but we'd like to see if a crummy bug ridden piece of crap can make money too. Sure, we've seen that fail countless times, but what the hell. It's only 30 40 million. Let's blow it and see what happens.
I did not say they set out to make bad games. I said their perspectives are not right and their focus is not in the correct areas.
Companies right now are trying to make products. When the leadership of the project is more focused on revenue streams, project deadlines and everything other than making a fun game then that will flow downhill to everything and everyone making the game.
If the passion to make a compelling game is replaced with passion for accounting, then you get what we have been getting for years.
Is it hard to make great games, yes. Are companies acting like it is easy, yes they are.
How many games have we seen try to slap a recognized IP on top of some typical mmo elements and rush it to market in a sorry state and expect riches to fall from the heavens? That is the result of revenue driven game design. There is no passion from the people working on the project to make a kick ass game.
Like I said, the first and most important question in the design process needs to be "Is this feature fun" and if the answer is no, then the game doesn't get released. Sadly that is the phase that so many developers are cutting from their project management and the results can be see littered all over the place.
It is simply amazing to see companies release games and then scratch their heads why 800,000 players quit in the first few months. It just shows how little they understand what players want.
All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
I don't think it's as black and white as that. Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience. I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason. That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.
No one releases unfinished games to make more profits. That's absurd.
Making an MMORPG like any other endeavour has finite resources.
The game is released when the resources run out.
you've not no money left to pay programmers, artists, keep the lights on, pay licensing fees for an IP or software used for development, keep the lights on, pay the rent, etc., etc.
Where do you think that money is going to come from? Santa Claus?
Dear Santa, We had 40 million dollars for development. We thought that this would be plenty, but we spent that after we changed the designs and figured out in beta some of our features sucked. Then we asked for 10 million more, and it was hard to get the banks to agree, but they loaned us the money. We spent that. Now we dont' have any more money, but the game isn't perfect.
Could you please bring us 50 million dollars to finish development?
The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost. Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.
But that's not necessarily true, unfortunately. MMOs are no longer made by geeks living in their mother's basement, just for the love of making them. Those days are long gone. Today, they are made by professional programmers who work for corporations who have to please the shareholders and make games that are going to repay the massive loans they had to take out to make the games in the first place. Yes, I agree that developers should focus on making a great game and far too many crank out crappy games that are WoW copies, etc. but developers do not and likely will never again have the freedom to just make whatever they want to make, there's too much money on the line and these programmers have families to feed.
People need to stop living in the past and deal with the modern realities of the MMO market.
The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost. Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.
But that's not necessarily true, unfortunately. MMOs are no longer made by geeks living in their mother's basement, just for the love of making them. Those days are long gone. Today, they are made by professional programmers who work for corporations who have to please the shareholders and make games that are going to repay the massive loans they had to take out to make the games in the first place. Yes, I agree that developers should focus on making a great game and far too many crank out crappy games that are WoW copies, etc. but developers do not and likely will never again have the freedom to just make whatever they want to make, there's too much money on the line and these programmers have families to feed.
People need to stop living in the past and deal with the modern realities of the MMO market.
How do you think wow was created?
Companies are investing millions and somehow not seeing the trend of failures, only to repeat it again and again. There is no excuses anymore for more repeats of the same mistakes.
Companies are focusing on what games have succeed in their lust for success and not HOW those games were created. That is the big difference.
A big corporation can have just as much success as the passionate geek in the basement. They can be just as creative while making sure the project stays on schedule (or plan for it to go beyond schedule until it is ready).
1. If a gaming studio does not make enough money to support it's employees/overhead, the game will fail and a lot of hours spent playing the game will be lost.
2. If the game is only making enough money to barely support it, it can not recieve the attention that the subscribers accept from a pay to play MMO.
3. If the game is making huge amounts of money, it will direct some of those profits towards adding new content and making the game better in hopes that they will pull in more people thus raising profits even further. At the very least, they will attempt to keep who they have by continually trying to keep the game interesting.
Reasons you should not care:
1. Someone told you their game was better than yours and their proof is that their game has more subscribers.
2. You feel directly connected to the game you play so much that you base your own self worth on how well the game you play is doing. (Sounds hokey, but I think it's very common).
All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
I don't think it's as black and white as that. Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience. I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason. That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.
No one releases unfinished games to make more profits. That's absurd.
Making an MMORPG like any other endeavour has finite resources.
The game is released when the resources run out.
you've not no money left to pay programmers, artists, keep the lights on, pay licensing fees for an IP or software used for development, keep the lights on, pay the rent, etc., etc.
Where do you think that money is going to come from? Santa Claus?
Dear Santa, We had 40 million dollars for development. We thought that this would be plenty, but we spent that after we changed the designs and figured out in beta some of our features sucked. Then we asked for 10 million more, and it was hard to get the banks to agree, but they loaned us the money. We spent that. Now we dont' have any more money, but the game isn't perfect.
Could you please bring us 50 million dollars to finish development?
Thanks,
Broke developers.
Thats bad management. If people run out of money because someone changed the designs you make heads roll. If you dont have money to change sucky features then why are you even bothering with a beta in the first place. Hype? You dont ask for another 10 mil unless you absolutely know it will be sufficient to bring the game close to perfect. If you need more money, and you cant raise it, you sell the project off to a developer who can afford to salvage the game and is looking to save itself some of the initial investment. Then you do the honorable thing and give a full explanation to the original investors, get them to authorize the sale and make sure their shares in the new venture will regain their value by working your ass off to make a smooth transition.
Theres no way a half assed MMO will recoup the original investment, if you go to launch in a last ditch effort to make some money off of box sales youre gambling away the last of the investors money and swindling your customers. What kind of people are we talking about? Richard Garriot? For Jebesus sake! Its bussiness, you cant have that kind of irresponsible attitude. Depending on your contract it might even, and deservedly, land you in jail for fraud...
Investment is made in stages. People dont just run out of money and end up with a bad project. Not when 40 mil are involved. Making a game requires management, if not bussiness skills. You need to be able to handle deadlines, budgets and staff.
edit; My point is you cant afford either sucky games or bad bussiness calls. Otherwise you only get really expensive school projects. A game can be the most awesome thing in the world and yet be too niche to ever make money. Thats a risk youre going to take. Something launching unfinished is just incompetence and inability of developers to follow through. It has nothing to do with either bussiness saavy or passion.
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I am not so sure that one-year failures (games which are placed in caretaker status within a year of release) are not the standard industry business model.
It is not beyond reason to think that Warhammer has paid off all development debts and made a small profit. Nothing like expectations, but they (supposedly) spent a lot of money.
800,000 box sales at release, plus an average of 500,000 (my estimate) subs for the first three months is a LOT of money.
I think shoddy quick-release designs that are dropped back to a skeleton crew within a year are quite possibly reasonably profitable for the producing companies. Not to mention the suckers who spring for lifetime subs and collector's editions.
Shovelware MMO releases might well be the current investment methodology in the industry. The tendancy for companies to move many top level devs off a completed MMO to another one in development seems to back this up.
If an industry insider ever writes a tell-all book about the business, I think a lot of us would be shocked at what the mind-set is.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I am not so sure that one-year failures (games which are placed in caretaker status within a year of release) are not the standard industry business model. It is not beyond reason to think that Warhammer has paid off all development debts and made a small profit. Nothing like expectations, but they (supposedly) spent a lot of money. 800,000 box sales at release, plus an average of 500,000 (my estimate) subs for the first three months is a LOT of money. I think shoddy quick-release designs that are dropped back to a skeleton crew within a year are quite possibly reasonably profitable for the producing companies. Not to mention the suckers who spring for lifetime subs and collector's editions. Shovelware MMO releases might well be the current investment methodology in the industry. Given the tendancy for companies to move many top level devs off a completed MMO to another one in development seems to back this up. If an industry insider ever writes a tell-all book about the business, I think a lot of us would be shocked at what the mind-set is.
At 50 bucks a pop 800,000 boxes would make 40 mil. 500,000 subs times three months at a $15 price would raise $22,500,000. Thats 62 and a half million clams for the whole thing. But things go downhill pretty fast from there. How much would you say they invested in the game? At an average 50,000 subs for the next two years they would make an extra 18 mil (yes, minus operation costs but plus some box sales) Thats what 70-80 mil for the two year cycle? Thats kinda calling it too close to what the game may have costed. Im not saying its terrible even for a bad game to make its money back, but the profit coming from running a two year old unsuccesful MMO is hardly what i would consider good return on investment. its kinda too close to call, but id say youd be better off earning interest from just having your money on the bank.
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I keep seeing all these arguments about "what is best for the profit of the company", or "because that's what makes them the most money". I don't care one whit about the game companies profits, surely they must realize this? So why then should I be OK with poor game designs / decisions that are justified in the name of money for their pockets? When are gaming companies going to realize that designing a MMO around nothing but making money is just going to result in another worthless product bereft of any art, passion for gaming, vision, and all of those things necessary in making a great game. All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that companies should not seek profits, I'm just saying that the extreme focus on profits might be suffocating the quality of gameplay in many cases.
Profit is the only driving force in business. A company that does not make a profit does not succeed. Shareholders don't care if you are happy as an individual, they care that the market AS A WHOLE is happy.
At its most basic, profit is the score a company uses to determine how well its doing. And remember, a company that makes 41 billion dollars a year but only profits 100 million isn't very profitable. From those profits, companies pay dividends, buy back stock, finance R&D, pay benefits....there is a long list of things that profit has to pay for.
Profits don't design games though. Companies design games and do everything in their power to make a game that the market is going to like enough to pay the company money. There is not a single company (not even SOE, believe it or not) that starts out to design a failure that no one wants to play. But a lack of profit can mean a game that would otherwise be successful isn't because there wasn't enough cash to make it successful.
Money makes the world go around, even our fantasy worlds. I WANT the companies that make my games to be worried about profit, because that means they are worried about the market, and THAT means they are worried about me and others like me who pay them to play their games.
I respect your right to voice your opinion and reserve the right to blow it right out of the water
I keep seeing all these arguments about "what is best for the profit of the company", or "because that's what makes them the most money". I don't care one whit about the game companies profits, surely they must realize this? So why then should I be OK with poor game designs / decisions that are justified in the name of money for their pockets? When are gaming companies going to realize that designing a MMO around nothing but making money is just going to result in another worthless product bereft of any art, passion for gaming, vision, and all of those things necessary in making a great game. All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that companies should not seek profits, I'm just saying that the extreme focus on profits might be suffocating the quality of gameplay in many cases.
Profit is the only driving force in business. A company that does not make a profit does not succeed. Shareholders don't care if you are happy as an individual, they care that the market AS A WHOLE is happy...
This only applies to publicly owned companies with a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Privately owned companies are free to have any priorities that they like. If I want to set up a company who's prime goal is to increase the number of pink bunnies in Hyde Park, then I can. As long as my revenue exceeds my operating costs, then I can continue to do so.
Incidentally, the game that I play, EvE, is produced by a privately owned company, which is owned by the people that run it, who set it up for the express purpose of producing a massively multiplayer space MMO with full loot, very sandbox play, and largely FFA PvP. Which they do. Which they've been very successful at. They dont pull many of the asshole stunts that the kind of company you think is the only possible type inflict upon their customers. They're still intensely commited to realising their vision. And they're reasonably profitable. They're not making WoW money, but then again, apart from Blizzard, who is?
This idea that maximising short term profit at the expense of all other considerations is not just permissable but some kind of a moral imperative is not only sociopathic, it's a prime cause of many of the problems we see in the world today. I wonder just how long this collective delusion will be allowed to continue. Perhaps one day soon people like you will realise that not only are you not supposed to expect to be shafted by companies, you dont even have to accept it.
There a game that only has 200 playerbase total and it's better than WoW and they probly barely make enough to keep the server up. I don't give a crap how much any company earns.
Comments
With the latest Madden or NBA game, you could question why they're making it. Peddling the same game with new jerseys and team stats. But to say Blizzard is more about the money than the game isn't looking at their history of always making quality games loads of people like and ONLY releasing them when they're ready. How many games get pushed out the door in a beta state? EQ2, WAR, AOC, AO, EVE, DAOC, Tabula Rasa, DF, Horizons...and it goes on and on.
If they're not making a profit, the game isn't going to last. So, you BETTER care a little=)
Of course they do. They just don't care. If people will buy it, it's good enough. If they won't, it's not. They don't care how you feel about it except as it affects how you buy it.
/end thread
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
The original poster makes a fine point that I think underlines the entire problem with the mmo idustry and people here just are not getting it.
Yes, all companies are in business to make money. Everyone understands that companies are out to make money without it even being said. It is just something that goes unspoken in a discussion like this.
It is HOW they make games that is failing and the results certainly are not making money. Currently game companies are more concerned with making a product that will show a return on investment than they are with making a compelling game. In practice that makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't work in for mmos.
The design process needs to be the exact opposite of that. They need to focus on making a great game first. The question that should be applied to every aspect of the game design should be "Is it fun?". Instead we are getting companies that skip over that simple question and replace it with "Will this make more money".
The result has been a rash of terrible, soulless and uninspired games that fail to meet even initial expectations. How many times do we need to see the same companies repeating the same mistakes over and over again, before companies understand the mmo genre isn't some money tree to be shaken.
The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost. Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.
As an auditor, I vote not to fire accountants or I would be out of a job
In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. Unfortunately, this is the way business is headed and I don't think there is a lot of hope of going back. As soon as the market grew into something worth investing into by big business, its fate was sealed.
Or maybe, just like making a good movie it's not that easy to make a good MMORPG and they try to do that, but often fail.
I'm pretty sure if they could make a good mMORPG they would, because any idiot knows a good game will make you more money than a bad on.
I"m pretty sure the guys investing millions of dollars are not going, well guys, we could make a good MMORPG. I mean, we know exactly how to do that.
But let's not do that. Instead, let's try to make a bad game that makes up money, because sure, good games make money, but we'd like to see if a crummy bug ridden piece of crap can make money too.
Sure, we've seen that fail countless times, but what the hell. It's only 30 40 million. Let's blow it and see what happens.
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
I don't think it's as black and white as that. Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience. I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason. That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I am a 31 year old IT administrator, but that is irrelevant. As I have already pointed out, I'm more of an "unhappy cog in the capitalist machine" =P
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
You don't need to play any game or pay them any money.
Im pretty sure most people in the gaming industry got in it for the passion. Maybe not the guys at the top, but the ones doing all the gruntwork may wonder every once in a while if they couldnt be doing something that pays better or if its really all worth it just for a shot at one day being able to make their own game.
You may all be somewhat selling the industry short, it really must take some passion for someone to somehow keep going after designing icons for armor pieces day in and out...
Yes, MMOs are a bussiness venture but inovation in any field requires guts. You may have a revolutionary concept brewing, but there really is no way to tell it apart from a bad idea until several millions of dollars have been invested and the concept has been tried. I dont entirely disagree with the OP, yes, MMOs are expensive projects but "playing it safe" on every single choice you must make really defeats the purpose of investing in the first place. Just churning out yet another WOW clone would seem to me a bad bussiness call given the success record of such games. Better to give something new a shot (even if in keeping within some tried concepts) and have at least a chance of hitting the jackpot.
Theres a fine line to walk in between sound bussiness and succesful inovation. Those who do manage are the success stories. IMO it would help if the ones doing the bussiness end of the deal were themselves gamers (which would give them a first hand perspective on wether something works) who were able to take distance and judge an idea for its worth. Its the same in any field, you wouldnt invest on a farm if you didnt know anything about agriculture nor would you get into managing an airline if you had no experience in the field.
Sure, some may argue theres a reason investors use consultants. But youre not a very good investor if you arent able to choose people with the right background to give you sound advice. And judging from the state of the MMO industry we do lack people with hands on knowledge on the bussiness end...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I dispute the notion that basing every decision in game design on "making a profit" actually makes a profit, or makes sense from a business angle.
First of all, it the goal of these publishers is to make a profit, there are far easier and more profitable ventures to go into than game design. Selling derivitives doesn't require any coding, server space, overhead, customer service, or any of that; and it's a market that is worth more than the entire world's GDP. So if profit was the only motive, game design seems like a far less profitable industry than many.
Second of all, I have to disagree with many of the posters here that say the industry lacks innovation. The problem is that most of the innovation is on the business side, and not the design side. F2P, micro, sponsorship, cross platform capability; all of this stuff is designed to make the MMOs more profitable, but have they succeeded? What have all these "innovations in monetization of online space" really done to wrest away the market share from Blizzard? NOTHING.
Seems to me that the OP has a point: directing game development from the finance and marketing departments--far from making profits--loses profits. That's the lesson the last five years have shown. You can design a good game that's profitable, but designing a profitable game will never be as good (or as profitable) as a game that was designed to be a good game.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I did not say they set out to make bad games. I said their perspectives are not right and their focus is not in the correct areas.
Companies right now are trying to make products. When the leadership of the project is more focused on revenue streams, project deadlines and everything other than making a fun game then that will flow downhill to everything and everyone making the game.
If the passion to make a compelling game is replaced with passion for accounting, then you get what we have been getting for years.
Is it hard to make great games, yes. Are companies acting like it is easy, yes they are.
How many games have we seen try to slap a recognized IP on top of some typical mmo elements and rush it to market in a sorry state and expect riches to fall from the heavens? That is the result of revenue driven game design. There is no passion from the people working on the project to make a kick ass game.
Like I said, the first and most important question in the design process needs to be "Is this feature fun" and if the answer is no, then the game doesn't get released. Sadly that is the phase that so many developers are cutting from their project management and the results can be see littered all over the place.
It is simply amazing to see companies release games and then scratch their heads why 800,000 players quit in the first few months. It just shows how little they understand what players want.
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
I don't think it's as black and white as that. Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience. I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason. That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.
No one releases unfinished games to make more profits. That's absurd.
Making an MMORPG like any other endeavour has finite resources.
The game is released when the resources run out.
you've not no money left to pay programmers, artists, keep the lights on, pay licensing fees for an IP or software used for development, keep the lights on, pay the rent, etc., etc.
Where do you think that money is going to come from? Santa Claus?
Dear Santa, We had 40 million dollars for development. We thought that this would be plenty, but we spent that after we changed the designs and figured out in beta some of our features sucked. Then we asked for 10 million more, and it was hard to get the banks to agree, but they loaned us the money. We spent that. Now we dont' have any more money, but the game isn't perfect.
Could you please bring us 50 million dollars to finish development?
Thanks,
Broke developers.
But that's not necessarily true, unfortunately. MMOs are no longer made by geeks living in their mother's basement, just for the love of making them. Those days are long gone. Today, they are made by professional programmers who work for corporations who have to please the shareholders and make games that are going to repay the massive loans they had to take out to make the games in the first place. Yes, I agree that developers should focus on making a great game and far too many crank out crappy games that are WoW copies, etc. but developers do not and likely will never again have the freedom to just make whatever they want to make, there's too much money on the line and these programmers have families to feed.
People need to stop living in the past and deal with the modern realities of the MMO market.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
But that's not necessarily true, unfortunately. MMOs are no longer made by geeks living in their mother's basement, just for the love of making them. Those days are long gone. Today, they are made by professional programmers who work for corporations who have to please the shareholders and make games that are going to repay the massive loans they had to take out to make the games in the first place. Yes, I agree that developers should focus on making a great game and far too many crank out crappy games that are WoW copies, etc. but developers do not and likely will never again have the freedom to just make whatever they want to make, there's too much money on the line and these programmers have families to feed.
People need to stop living in the past and deal with the modern realities of the MMO market.
How do you think wow was created?
Companies are investing millions and somehow not seeing the trend of failures, only to repeat it again and again. There is no excuses anymore for more repeats of the same mistakes.
Companies are focusing on what games have succeed in their lust for success and not HOW those games were created. That is the big difference.
A big corporation can have just as much success as the passionate geek in the basement. They can be just as creative while making sure the project stays on schedule (or plan for it to go beyond schedule until it is ready).
Reasons you should care:
1. If a gaming studio does not make enough money to support it's employees/overhead, the game will fail and a lot of hours spent playing the game will be lost.
2. If the game is only making enough money to barely support it, it can not recieve the attention that the subscribers accept from a pay to play MMO.
3. If the game is making huge amounts of money, it will direct some of those profits towards adding new content and making the game better in hopes that they will pull in more people thus raising profits even further. At the very least, they will attempt to keep who they have by continually trying to keep the game interesting.
Reasons you should not care:
1. Someone told you their game was better than yours and their proof is that their game has more subscribers.
2. You feel directly connected to the game you play so much that you base your own self worth on how well the game you play is doing. (Sounds hokey, but I think it's very common).
How can you hire game designers with no money?
I didn't mean no money. I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game. I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand. I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised.
For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit. Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA? If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.
Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful. Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.
What's the best way to make money?
Make a good video game or a bad one?
I don't think it's as black and white as that. Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience. I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason. That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.
No one releases unfinished games to make more profits. That's absurd.
Making an MMORPG like any other endeavour has finite resources.
The game is released when the resources run out.
you've not no money left to pay programmers, artists, keep the lights on, pay licensing fees for an IP or software used for development, keep the lights on, pay the rent, etc., etc.
Where do you think that money is going to come from? Santa Claus?
Dear Santa, We had 40 million dollars for development. We thought that this would be plenty, but we spent that after we changed the designs and figured out in beta some of our features sucked. Then we asked for 10 million more, and it was hard to get the banks to agree, but they loaned us the money. We spent that. Now we dont' have any more money, but the game isn't perfect.
Could you please bring us 50 million dollars to finish development?
Thanks,
Broke developers.
Thats bad management. If people run out of money because someone changed the designs you make heads roll. If you dont have money to change sucky features then why are you even bothering with a beta in the first place. Hype? You dont ask for another 10 mil unless you absolutely know it will be sufficient to bring the game close to perfect. If you need more money, and you cant raise it, you sell the project off to a developer who can afford to salvage the game and is looking to save itself some of the initial investment. Then you do the honorable thing and give a full explanation to the original investors, get them to authorize the sale and make sure their shares in the new venture will regain their value by working your ass off to make a smooth transition.
Theres no way a half assed MMO will recoup the original investment, if you go to launch in a last ditch effort to make some money off of box sales youre gambling away the last of the investors money and swindling your customers. What kind of people are we talking about? Richard Garriot? For Jebesus sake! Its bussiness, you cant have that kind of irresponsible attitude. Depending on your contract it might even, and deservedly, land you in jail for fraud...
Investment is made in stages. People dont just run out of money and end up with a bad project. Not when 40 mil are involved. Making a game requires management, if not bussiness skills. You need to be able to handle deadlines, budgets and staff.
edit; My point is you cant afford either sucky games or bad bussiness calls. Otherwise you only get really expensive school projects. A game can be the most awesome thing in the world and yet be too niche to ever make money. Thats a risk youre going to take. Something launching unfinished is just incompetence and inability of developers to follow through. It has nothing to do with either bussiness saavy or passion.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I am not so sure that one-year failures (games which are placed in caretaker status within a year of release) are not the standard industry business model.
It is not beyond reason to think that Warhammer has paid off all development debts and made a small profit. Nothing like expectations, but they (supposedly) spent a lot of money.
800,000 box sales at release, plus an average of 500,000 (my estimate) subs for the first three months is a LOT of money.
I think shoddy quick-release designs that are dropped back to a skeleton crew within a year are quite possibly reasonably profitable for the producing companies. Not to mention the suckers who spring for lifetime subs and collector's editions.
Shovelware MMO releases might well be the current investment methodology in the industry. The tendancy for companies to move many top level devs off a completed MMO to another one in development seems to back this up.
If an industry insider ever writes a tell-all book about the business, I think a lot of us would be shocked at what the mind-set is.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
At 50 bucks a pop 800,000 boxes would make 40 mil. 500,000 subs times three months at a $15 price would raise $22,500,000. Thats 62 and a half million clams for the whole thing. But things go downhill pretty fast from there. How much would you say they invested in the game? At an average 50,000 subs for the next two years they would make an extra 18 mil (yes, minus operation costs but plus some box sales) Thats what 70-80 mil for the two year cycle? Thats kinda calling it too close to what the game may have costed. Im not saying its terrible even for a bad game to make its money back, but the profit coming from running a two year old unsuccesful MMO is hardly what i would consider good return on investment. its kinda too close to call, but id say youd be better off earning interest from just having your money on the bank.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Profit is the only driving force in business. A company that does not make a profit does not succeed. Shareholders don't care if you are happy as an individual, they care that the market AS A WHOLE is happy.
At its most basic, profit is the score a company uses to determine how well its doing. And remember, a company that makes 41 billion dollars a year but only profits 100 million isn't very profitable. From those profits, companies pay dividends, buy back stock, finance R&D, pay benefits....there is a long list of things that profit has to pay for.
Profits don't design games though. Companies design games and do everything in their power to make a game that the market is going to like enough to pay the company money. There is not a single company (not even SOE, believe it or not) that starts out to design a failure that no one wants to play. But a lack of profit can mean a game that would otherwise be successful isn't because there wasn't enough cash to make it successful.
Money makes the world go around, even our fantasy worlds. I WANT the companies that make my games to be worried about profit, because that means they are worried about the market, and THAT means they are worried about me and others like me who pay them to play their games.
I respect your right to voice your opinion and reserve the right to blow it right out of the water
How can you hire game designers with no money?
With all the money they just saved from firing those accountants!
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Profit is the only driving force in business. A company that does not make a profit does not succeed. Shareholders don't care if you are happy as an individual, they care that the market AS A WHOLE is happy...
This only applies to publicly owned companies with a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Privately owned companies are free to have any priorities that they like. If I want to set up a company who's prime goal is to increase the number of pink bunnies in Hyde Park, then I can. As long as my revenue exceeds my operating costs, then I can continue to do so.
Incidentally, the game that I play, EvE, is produced by a privately owned company, which is owned by the people that run it, who set it up for the express purpose of producing a massively multiplayer space MMO with full loot, very sandbox play, and largely FFA PvP. Which they do. Which they've been very successful at. They dont pull many of the asshole stunts that the kind of company you think is the only possible type inflict upon their customers. They're still intensely commited to realising their vision. And they're reasonably profitable. They're not making WoW money, but then again, apart from Blizzard, who is?
This idea that maximising short term profit at the expense of all other considerations is not just permissable but some kind of a moral imperative is not only sociopathic, it's a prime cause of many of the problems we see in the world today. I wonder just how long this collective delusion will be allowed to continue. Perhaps one day soon people like you will realise that not only are you not supposed to expect to be shafted by companies, you dont even have to accept it.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You little troll!
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Nobody is useless, he/she can still be used as a bad example.
There a game that only has 200 playerbase total and it's better than WoW and they probly barely make enough to keep the server up. I don't give a crap how much any company earns.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.