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(Tanking Mechanic) Large Scale PvE with Tanks [VS] Large Scale PvE without Tanking mechanics? Whats
tro44_1
Member Posts: 1,819
What are your thought and opinion on Tanking Mechanics in a MMORPG?
I know some people say Tanking only makes AI dumb, but
in other cases, like in WoW, their end game is made out of the idea of Tanking system, which works very well. I also believe EQ had a tanking mechanic, so It cant be all that bad right?
Also a lot of people against tanking, bring up the the fact that in most MMORPG games, tanking classes suck in PvP. But in WoW (the W word again) their Tanking classes can fight. War also. But anyway this is a PvE discussion.
So whats your opinion on Tanking in Large Scaled Grouped PvE gameplay?
Comments
I am on the fence, Tanking has molded gameplay style and made it rather stale. But it gives combat the bones to hang its dynamics around. So what would it be replaced with, a more free flowing but chaotic model? You would need a radical class or skills rethink, and remove some of the way people identify with their class. So not sure on this one.
I don't think it is that simple. You can't really think about Large Scale PvE without a Tank because most games are based on the holy trinity. You have to design the game and classes from upside down to be able to take advantage of a "tankless" environment. Otherwise, with current classic system in place, all you'll get is chaos.
I'd say for PvE, its a pretty cool system, it just "works" and its fun for most people.
its not as simple as ditch tanks or promote em
In my opinion i think it would be more challenging and somewhat more fun if in large scale PvE stuff that everyone was on fairly equal footing against the boss (casters with cloth are 1-2 hit kills. Those in leather are roughly 3-4 and those in plate are 5-8) but everyone sort of share the damage. I suppose i would love to see a very DnD system where you don't really need a tank and the idea is not to tank the boss for as long as possible but to work together to beat the living crap out of it as fast as possible.
In other words i don't like seeing tanks with 100,000,000 health running around taking hits from sledgehammers the size of a house while everyone else has about 200 health.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
There are of course two roles for the meat shield in many mmo. Firstly, the PvE tank who has a magic button to force enemies to attack him over the rest of the players. Secondly, the meat shield who acts as a barrier in PvP for the rest of the team. Obviously they are stereotypes, and present in so many mmo, as you write many famous games have used this formula: EQ, WoW...etc, so obviously this can work in game design. What I prefer to see is a more skill-based system, so a player can pick and choose which attributes they bring along to the game team, or, in other words, some system that does away with the conventional tank idea. Certainly it would be possible to design large-scale PvE without a conventional tank, even games like WoW have used non-tank classes to fulfil the tank role, though rarely, since they have to keep classes happy and give them conventional roles.
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that a more DnD style of play would be a lot more fun in an MMO. The problems you would run into are numerous but not impossible.
For instance players would have to be extremely mobile and not have so many cast bar based spells ( a silly idea in the first place). This would allow for players to move around the boss with no one person having to tank the boss. Also on that note, I'm sorry but for the most part boss fights should involve more minions and mechanics and less "uber boss-man with 50mil hp". This being said players would then have to mitigate damage by varying threat and protecting your glass cannons while allowing those with higher base damage dampening skills (the mail, heavy leather, and plate wearers) to mete out the blows as they see fit. This would in turn get rid of any one person being the "main tank"
All this said you would still have to have the basic party balance with your glass cannons, utility/healers, and your hybrids.
Obviously this is only the barest outline of the most beginning parts of an idea.
Two words...play FFXI.
Tanking is never simple in the ACTUAL game,i find it funny once again someone talking about WOW and has to mention end game.The answer should be obvious large scale is a joke,the only way large scale even works period is if the game gives you ridiculous spells to cast hate on large areas.
I have no idea why the fascination for large scale from so many people,i cannot stand large scale weapons let alone large scale battles.
I look at it this way,i need some sort of realism in my games,even though i know they are Fantasy ,it doesn't matter.Would ANYONE realistically run out in the middle of 20 mobs and start fighting?heck even 5 or more is ridiculous about 2 or 3 should be max.To think a game allows you to survive after tanking anymore than 2-3 mobs is cheap 101.
If you tried to tank 3 or more xp mobs in FFXI you were dead and so was your party,no large scale needed,because the game offers a challenge in small numbers.If your tank can handle more than a couple mobs at once,then the the defense of the tanks is blown out of proportion made far too easy mode and you are given too simplistic hate tools.In FFXI you really have to manage your hate control and everyone else around you has to manage their actions as well.That is the difference between a good challenging combat system and a watered down cheap one.Heck most games are so diluted ,people walk around soloing things as any class,everything is easy mode.
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It is a no-brainer that the game must be built around the idea that there is no tanking.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I guess my thoughts are summed up as:
So I voted No Tanking, mostly out of a desire to see it attempted more often rather than any sense that it's outright superior to the other options.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The whole idea of tanking is stupid. It also gives a lot more boring gameplay, monsters should act like players. Ever tanked someone in PvP?
If you ever played Guildwars you know that you don't need the tanking mechanics at all. It just makes the MMO combat too easy.
There are however many ways in pen and paper RPGs where warriors try to block and intercept attacks aimed at the weaker characters and that works fine. Body blocking also works.
The reason EQ used the system was that at the time the AI was not that amazing. Today however have all other game genres AIs that almost acts like real humans, the idea that we needs tanks is making MMOs dumber.
Thankfully are Guildwars 2 around the corner. It will offer smart mobs and higher difficulty.
Its easy to say "no tanking", its much harder to come up with a viable alternative. Which is why Im not seeing any from the people voting against tanking.
Because you would have to completely redesign how these large scale PvE encounters work. If you are fighting a giant dragon that will 1 or 2 shot everyone in the raid(because no one would have the health or defences of a tank) you would have to come up with a reason why he doesnt do that.
What would stop a dragon from immediately killing every caster in the raid without some sort of agro system or AI control? If the dragon really was smart, he'd stomp right over everyone with armor and step on all the casters/healers. Then all the warriors are eaten a few moments later. End of fight in about 5 seconds. FUN?? Hardly.
If you claim the casters can just run around and avoid the attacks, then you have a kiting issue, which is basically an exploit. Fun? Hardly.
If you claim everyone is a Tank/ Mage/Healer, so the Dragon doesn't have a specific weaker target and people just choose their role to attack or heal or defend all on the fly, THEN you might have something. However, everyone is the same if you can be any role. FUN? Maybe. But you've just removed persistence and choices having meaning. How much AI does the mob really have then? There is still agro. The Dragon has to have a reason to attack someone, UNLESS he's just attacking everyone all the time, which seems kind of odd. So is he attacking the guy doing the most damage, the one doing the most healing, the closest? How does he work? Is he just randomly attacking anyone he chooses, because thats kind of lame.
Lol, pretty sure that happened as soon as you could die, and come back and fight the dragon again. Or kill the dragon, and somehow come back and kill it again tomorrow or next week.
I voted without tanking, but that doesn't mean I disrespect the idea of tanking.
I think the problem lies in the content. Healers and tanks have existed in RPGs for a long time, but their roles shouldn't be defined by their environment, it should be designed for the player. When I play a tank class, I play it because I like being the guy that can take a lot of hits while I fight (although at a considerable damage disadvantage), not because I want to focus all the damage on me while my cohorts mindlessly pewpew.
I think games need to be designed with more elements than the tank/heal/dps mentality, BUT not to outright get rid of them. It's a playstyle many like and many are accustomed to, and even after playing it out to it's limits, people still don't find it stale.
Threat and aggro mechanics need to go by the wayside and people need to play as a group of adventurers as you'd see in a movie. Players should take advantage of their abilities and their environment, you don't watch Lord of the Rings and see a bunch of guys with shields on the front lines while all their buddies are standing at the enemy's back stabbing them with knives. No, it comes down to the individual and his playstyle.
I'm waiting for the day I don't have to see "LF2M healer and tank". I want the MMO that just lets us grab a group of 5 or 6 guys and work our way through an encounter how we see fit.
Good luck developers, you have a lot of expectations.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Very well said, and why I voted to retain the tanking mechanic in PVE.
Otherwise you just end up with free for all zerg fighting and that's never fun or challenging.
What we're really arguing is the holy trinity (tank, heal, DPS) just focusing on only one leg of it.
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Lol, pretty sure that happened as soon as you could die, and come back and fight the dragon again. Or kill the dragon, and somehow come back and kill it again tomorrow or next week.
I was referring more to character choices, not the world you impact
wow its at 50/50
You would be amazed how often you get to "tank" people in pvp. ive found that the majority of players (especially in games like WAR) immediately focus on the first target to come anywhere within range of them (usually a tank) , and no matter how many times you point out their mistake, they still just sit there beating on the tank (who also usually has multiple healers keeping him at full health) while they get bent over and raped by ranged dps or a suppor ttrain running them over. Also used to play RF Online, and it was pretty entertaining during Chip War to watch 100+ people all sit there trying to take out 1 tank who does nothing, just runs into the group, and stands there doing nothing but being a meat shield for 5 minutes until they get the hint that he isnt going down.
Lack of common sense in pvp like that, attacking tanks who stand no chance of killing anyone, while youre ignoring dps and healers, is one of my biggest peeves and has become ore and more common over the years and it makes me wish you were required to take an IQ test to enable pvp or play some games at all.
I like large scale PVP without tanking mechanics. It reminds me of Diablo, it would require a lot of AOE effects though (Which games REALLLLLY need more of!)
You would be amazed how often you get to "tank" people in pvp. ive found that the majority of players (especially in games like WAR) immediately focus on the first target to come anywhere within range of them (usually a tank) , and no matter how many times you point out their mistake, they still just sit there beating on the tank (who also usually has multiple healers keeping him at full health) while they get bent over and raped by ranged dps or a suppor ttrain running them over. Also used to play RF Online, and it was pretty entertaining during Chip War to watch 100+ people all sit there trying to take out 1 tank who does nothing, just runs into the group, and stands there doing nothing but being a meat shield for 5 minutes until they get the hint that he isnt going down.
Lack of common sense in pvp like that, attacking tanks who stand no chance of killing anyone, while youre ignoring dps and healers, is one of my biggest peeves and has become ore and more common over the years and it makes me wish you were required to take an IQ test to enable pvp or play some games at all.
True - but then again, in GW, you can kick those "unwanted" players from your team. Only randomly generated groups have this problem.
I have strong belief that any game that rids itself of the traditional tanking mechanics will have above than average AI and combat that is more exciting than found in your average MMO.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Rather than ditch the whole thing I'd like to see more options.
For example, the ability to switch off more as tank, so then you don't need to be pure tank, but you can take a turn tanking as long as you coordinate it well.
But if you're doing a large scale grouped fight, and everybody could tank (Since there is no tanking Class system)
Then in a 20man PvE raid, (Example)
if the Dragon Boss's main focus dies, that would leave any other person in the group(19 left) to take up the spot as the Bosses' main focus.
AKA: Everybody would be able to tank. (20 person tanking group)
That would seem very stale for a Large Scale grouped PvE raid.
I have found the opposite. The holy trinity concept has gone very stale for me. I found it quite boring. Part of the problem for me is that you have artificial abilities to get the mobs attention, ie taunt. Why not gravitate towards tactics that are more real life like (yes I know there isn't magic and crapin RL). The game should have collision detection (bodyblocking, whatever you want to call it). In that respect you could tatically move to block big bad monster from getting to squishier targets. Obviously you have to balance all of the abilities of all players involved (pc and npc) but that shouldn't be an issue. I'd much rather see large scale fights that involve better tactics rather than relying on a tank, dps, heal concept. It's time to move on from that.
In any game with roles, it's very likely you'll have people who deal damage and people who heal (even if they're not healing 100% of the time.) Saying "it's time to move on from that" is sort of ridiculous in light of this.
I'd wager the real thing you're tired of is the same basic combat mechanic (with the inclusion of aggro/tanking as part of that combat mechanic.) Because nobody plays TF2 and goes "OMG it's the same old holy trinity garbage, I hate this game!" Because even though the relationship between the Medic, Heavy, and Pyro are functionally a "holy trinity", the gameplay is entirely different than MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There will always be a tank. A tank is the person who takes a majority of the hits or a higher pecentage than everyone else. No matter what the game mechanics are there is always something in the game mechanics to mitigate damage. Whether you have one class only, a skill based system or whatever. The only excpetion to this are games of the type where 1 to 3 hits will kill you under pretty much every circumstance(aka first person shooter style). Then damage mitigation wont matter a whole lot.
Now a game with damage mitigation techniques will usually force a player to take those or use those at a sacrifice to something else - the ability to heal or the abiilty to do damage or the ability to do crowd control(roots, snares, mesmerizing). Now even if a game does not have a technical tank players on their own will create the best tank they can with the tools they have so that their friend can make the best dps glass cannon they can with the tools they have. Thus you will still end up with a tank and dps and if there are no direct player driven heal skills then they probably have potions or stim packs and so you may or may not have a direct healer but instead replace healing with a device.
Outside of a first person shooter style game, the basics of fighting simply do not change. You try to deal more damage to your oppenent in a given amount of time than they can deal to you. The one who wins the damage war wins the fight. You can do this by outnumbering your foe or by mitigating the damage your foe does. You can mitigate that damage by using heals, by wearing some form of protection(armor), or by using some form of crowd control to take the enemy out of the fight for some period of time.
So long as fighting is a part of games the holy trinity will exist as they are the core essentials to all fighting. The ability to deal damage, the ability to mitigate damage and the ability to heal damage. If one side has all three of those and the other side only has 2 of those...the side with all three will win.
This is not to say that games can not get creative about how they create those roles and arrive at those functions, but those basic roles will always be there.
I have found the opposite. The holy trinity concept has gone very stale for me. I found it quite boring. Part of the problem for me is that you have artificial abilities to get the mobs attention, ie taunt. Why not gravitate towards tactics that are more real life like (yes I know there isn't magic and crapin RL). The game should have collision detection (bodyblocking, whatever you want to call it). In that respect you could tatically move to block big bad monster from getting to squishier targets. Obviously you have to balance all of the abilities of all players involved (pc and npc) but that shouldn't be an issue. I'd much rather see large scale fights that involve better tactics rather than relying on a tank, dps, heal concept. It's time to move on from that.
like somebody else said,
it just seem like you want Exploiting. And thats not fun (Imo). Kiting and Body wall blocking is a exploit in a Large Scale group PvP fight.