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I agree with you to a point. However, the pool of literary works far exceeds the pool of MMOs that step on stage. Sub numbers in a game are far different than best selling book lists. It takes one person to write a novel. The money and resources required to create a novel is miniscule in comparison to an MMO. No one reads a book for a year straight. No one commits a large part of their life to a single book (excluding a priest to a bible or the like).
There are no Nobel prizes for MMOs. If there were, I think we all know which one would receive it. At best you can take reviews from people that play games and own gaming sites to base a games worth on. It is very likely that reviews, from a meta standpoint, would place games where they are subscription-wise over time.
MMO subscription numbers represent how involved people can get in a game. Over time, a high amount of subscriptions really can tell whether or not a game is quality. Games that people are stoked about often fall short and fade away.
In the end, like literature, it's completely personal. And while there are no Nobel prizes for MMOs, there are professional game reviewers that attempt to take a unbiased look at MMOs as they come through. From a meta perspective, you can get a feel for how much quality a game has overall through those reviews. However, just like a book receiving the nobel prize, it doesn't always mean you will enjoy the book.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
@ ;Ilvaldyr
We are at an impasse on this point; my opinion remains that the dominant reason for WoW's success is the quality of the game experience as reflected by the wide variety of supported playstyles that it encompasses.
By explicitly stating it's opinion, then sure. There's nothing left to dispute.
My "circular reasoning" was in response to the poorly-defined analogy. If an analogy is not defined enough to debate, then I do not consider it to be legitimate discourse.
I took the liberty of defining someone's analogy that I had referenced. I defined it with common denominator- the consumer platform. By doing this, is it not debatable, or does it remain illegit discourse still [in your eyes]?
Short of making things personal, and I do my best to avoid flames and namecalling, I see well-formed arguments on one side, and claims/dismissals/stances on another. I am not trying to bait, I am trying to debate. I don't want you to feel like I'm 'out to get ya' but I'm defending my stance outlined with entry post into this thread. I have done what I could to establish reasoning and logic for statements to you, but do not feel like anything but dismissal and avoidance has come from your camp.
Edit: Format
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
All the original post proves is that tweens spend more disposable income on music than most adults and the ENTERTAINERS outsell artists. This isn't a secret of the music industry. Not to mention nothing about those singers is "bad". They simply appeal to young kids which somehow becomes taboo or bad. Get over yourselves, because there is nothing wrong with kids loving music and entertainers making products aimed at kids.
Comparing dissimilar products doesn't make a valid conclusion.
Here is a challenge to all those who love to use analogies instead of talking about the actual specifics of the mmos industry
COMPLETE THE POPULAR ANALOGY
McDonalds is crap and popular, so wow is like McDonalds. <<insert fantasy mmo of choice here>> represents the high quality steak dinner in comparison to wow being mcdonalds.
Walmart is somehow low quality and popular, so wow is like Walmarts. <<insert fantasy mmo of choice here>> represents the high quality store in comparison to wow being walmarts. (not that I think walmart is crap simply because it is popular)
The problem with lame analogies is that people only picks ones with negative stigmas in an attempt to compare wow to something bad and try to make that a relavant statement. They NEVER complete the second half of the analogy and show how other games are suprior in quality.
The reason no one ever completes the second half of the analogy is because they cannot. Wow is a very high quality product and the reason for its success stems from that.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I agree with you to a point. However, the pool of literary works far exceeds the pool of MMOs that step on stage. Sub numbers in a game are far different than best selling book lists. It takes one person to write a novel. The money and resources required to create a novel is miniscule in comparison to an MMO. No one reads a book for a year straight. No one commits a large part of their life to a single book (excluding a priest to a bible or the like).
There are no Nobel prizes for MMOs. If there were, I think we all know which one would receive it. At best you can take reviews from people that play games and own gaming sites to base a games worth on. It is very likely that reviews, from a meta standpoint, would place games where they are subscription-wise over time.
MMO subscription numbers represent how involved people can get in a game. Over time, a high amount of subscriptions really can tell whether or not a game is quality. Games that people are stoked about often fall short and fade away.
In the end, like literature, it's completely personal. And while there are no Nobel prizes for MMOs, there are professional game reviewers that attempt to take a unbiased look at MMOs as they come through. From a meta perspective, you can get a feel for how much quality a game has overall through those reviews. However, just like a book receiving the nobel prize, it doesn't always mean you will enjoy the book.
I agree that the analogy isnt entirely apropiate which is the reason i added printed media which does require a subscription. Offtopic; Some books do take longer than a year to read, and people do dedicate their lives to a single book (Homers Iliad, Cervantes Don Quixote, Dantes Divina Commedia, Melvilles Moby Dick, etc.) although overall ill grant youre right in this.
People may also dedicate a large part of their lives to works such as JK Rowlings Harry Potter series or JRR Tolkiens fantasy series (IMO, theyre not that good) so the analogy does hold in providing examples of works whose longevity may not be ascribed to superior quality relative to competitors. Going even further i would consider the infatuation of many english speaking intelectuals with Dickens as stemming from intelectual fanboism.
@ Daffid011; The subject has been addressed. I did go through the trouble of doing analogies based on the WOW-McDonalds comparison on the thread discussing it. I remeber comparing EVE to a bistrot and LOTRO to Dennys. The reason i mentioned for no one bringing up a comparison with three star restaurants is that ours is a very young genre, not two decades old... We havent yet evolved to the level of sofistication required to produce foie gras or Champagne. I hope ill at least manage to see something like creme brulee in my lifetime but with happy meals being the standard i guess ill be waiting quite a while...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Talking about hamburgers, singers and department stores doesn't make a good comparison to video games, because they all have vastly different aspects.
Analogies of this type allow people to focus on one thing the comparisons have in common and ignore all of the other important aspects. This thread is a great example of that. People are specifically chosing analogies that will associate something popular with something else that has a negative stigma. Fast food, tweenage entertainers, wallmart the destroyer of grandmas business.
No one every completes the anology to compare what other mmos represent the high class, upscale name brand awesomeness in comparison, because the intention of the anaology isn't to show comaprions of similar items. The intention is always to associate negatives and dismiss everything else.
People do not complete the anology, because it would expose how weak and irrelevant they really are.
Ok, really you must be in extreme denial mode to ignore the fact someone did address the point youre complaining no one is addressing... Most people would understand their being called by name a direct response.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
If you (or someone else) compelted the anology I missed it and apologize. Care to share a link, because I bet it didn't answer the question.
Even comparing Eve to Lotro is a bit off, because they are drastically different games and at the same time both have a reputation for being high quality. Calling one a bistro and one dennys doesn't make much sence.
I guess I just differ from the typical poster here in that I like to talk about the actual aspects of what makes an mmo good or bad instead of talking about a hamburger as if that directly relates to a specific game. *shrug*
Maybe I should head over to restaurants.com to see what mmo they would recommend for an evening of fine gaming.
Ok, really you must be in extreme denial mode to ignore the fact someone did address the point youre complaining no one is addressing... Most people would understand their being called by name a direct response.
Whether or not someone "addressed" it does not have anything to do with the fact that he is correct. These analogies are set up to only compare the negative things to real life examples.
John Grisham has no literary worth and has sold millions.
WoW has no MMO gaming worth and has sold millions.
Which MMO, according to your analogy, is the great literary work of our time?
The ironic thing is your retaurants.com comment is an illustration, that is it serves the same purpose as an analogy...
The WOW-McDonalds analogy is simply meant to ilustrate how overwhelming success does not go hand in hand with quality, reading more into it, although fun as an exercise, is beside the point. If you dont like the things WOW is usually compared to youre more than welcome to have your own try at it.
Im not linking the other thread not only because im too lazy (if you want to give it a shot it was titled something like "why WOW shouldnt be compared to McDonalds") but because i repeated the point in here. We are not discussing hamburguers but illustrating our views. This is a skill known as "abstract thinking" and perfectly legitimate to use as you yourself demonstrated. Obviously your main objection seems to be with the fact most of these analogies are unflattering to WOW not with using such models per se. Either jump in the bandwagon (like the guy who argued for the Spice Girls actually being talented) or make your own example. If you want to argue in plain terms that WOWs numbers reflect its quality just do so and stop being literal minded about comparisons you dont like.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Ok, really you must be in extreme denial mode to ignore the fact someone did address the point youre complaining no one is addressing... Most people would understand their being called by name a direct response.
Whether or not someone "addressed" it does not have anything to do with the fact that he is correct. These analogies are set up to only compare the negative things to real life examples.
John Grisham has no literary worth and has sold millions.
WoW has no MMO gaming worth and has sold millions.
Which MMO, according to your analogy, is the great literary work of our time?
We are not there yet, ive made that point clear. Some may compare games like UO, EQ or even pre NGE SWG to seminal literary works like Le Morte dArthur or El Mio Cid, masterpieces although lacking in the sofistication that would come with later literature. I would compare WOW to Boccaccios Decameron, a revolutionary work of great formal and historical significance, but also far from being one of the high points in the evolution of human thought. An MMO that would compare with the brilliance of a Shakespeare or a Cervantes is yet to be made. I think ive really stretched the literary comparison as far as it will go...
Like i said to Daffid011 youre more than welcome to come up with your own analogy, ill be more than happy to address it even if it seems unlikely it will ever replace the McDonalds comparison...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Ok, really you must be in extreme denial mode to ignore the fact someone did address the point youre complaining no one is addressing... Most people would understand their being called by name a direct response.
Whether or not someone "addressed" it does not have anything to do with the fact that he is correct. These analogies are set up to only compare the negative things to real life examples.
John Grisham has no literary worth and has sold millions.
WoW has no MMO gaming worth and has sold millions.
Which MMO, according to your analogy, is the great literary work of our time?
We are not there yet, ive made that point clear. Some may compare games like UO, EQ or even pre NGE SWG to seminal literary works like Le Morte dArthur or El Mio Cid, masterpieces although lacking in the sofistication that would come with later literature. I would compare WOW to Boccaccios Decameron, a revolutionary work of great formal and historical significance, but also far from being one of the high points in the evolution of human thought. An MMO that would compare with the brilliance of a Shakespeare or a Cervantes is yet to be made. I think ive really stretched the literary comparison as far as it will go...
Like i said to Daffid011 youre more than welcome to come up with your own analogy, ill be more than happy to address it even if it seems unlikely it will ever replace the McDonalds comparison...
The McDonalds comparison will never go away not because it is a great analogy for an MMO, but instead because the human brain tends to want to wrap things in small, easy to understand packages. When people use the analogy, it shows that they are either being lazy, or are too unintelligent to understand anything beyond an over simplified comparison.
People have trouble accepting that something they don't personally like is quality. So they latch onto an analogy such as this to help put things in perspective for them. Anyone that uses analogies like these does a disservice to their own credibility and only helps to propagate an unacceptable method of judgement.
In other words, it's bullshit. Saying there is no such thing as a good MMO and then going on to say that the most popular MMO of all time is comparable to the worst form of food/literature/singer/whatever is ridiculous.
Ok, really you must be in extreme denial mode to ignore the fact someone did address the point youre complaining no one is addressing... Most people would understand their being called by name a direct response.
Whether or not someone "addressed" it does not have anything to do with the fact that he is correct. These analogies are set up to only compare the negative things to real life examples.
John Grisham has no literary worth and has sold millions.
WoW has no MMO gaming worth and has sold millions.
Which MMO, according to your analogy, is the great literary work of our time?
We are not there yet, ive made that point clear. Some may compare games like UO, EQ or even pre NGE SWG to seminal literary works like Le Morte dArthur or El Mio Cid, masterpieces although lacking in the sofistication that would come with later literature. I would compare WOW to Boccaccios Decameron, a revolutionary work of great formal and historical significance, but also far from being one of the high points in the evolution of human thought. An MMO that would compare with the brilliance of a Shakespeare or a Cervantes is yet to be made. I think ive really stretched the literary comparison as far as it will go...
Like i said to Daffid011 youre more than welcome to come up with your own analogy, ill be more than happy to address it even if it seems unlikely it will ever replace the McDonalds comparison...
The McDonalds comparison will never go away not because it is a great analogy for an MMO, but instead because the human brain tends to want to wrap things in small, easy to understand packages. When people use the analogy, it shows that they are either being lazy, or are too unintelligent to understand anything beyond an over simplified comparison.
People have trouble accepting that something they don't personally like is quality. So they latch onto an analogy such as this to help put things in perspective for them. Anyone that uses analogies like these do a disservice to their own credibility and only help to propagate an unacceptable method of judgement.
In other words, it's bullshit. Saying there is no such thing as a good MMO and then going on to say that the most popular MMO of all time is comparable to the worst form of food/literature/singer/whatever is ridiculous.
Its not bull and i never said there was no such thing as a good MMO, only that there was no such thing as a masterpiece, and given that the audience seems to have become more sofisticated than the developers, id even go as far as to say this makes for a more acurate representation of where things stand now.
Youre entitled to your own opinion of what people using the McDonalds analogy may be. Just as i am to mine when it concerns people that seem to feel personally insulted whenever someone refers to WOW in less than flattering terms. Trust me, yours seems gracious in comparison...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Its not bull and i never said there was no such thing as a good MMO, only that there was no such thing as a masterpiece, and given that the audience seems to have become more sofisticated than the developers, id even go as far as to say this makes for a more acurate representation of where things stand now.
Youre entitled to your own opinion of what people using the McDonalds analogy may be. Just as i am to mine when it concerns people that seem to feel personally insulted whenever someone refers to WOW in less than flattering terms. Trust me, yours seems gracious in comparison...
My what seems gracious?
I don't even play WoW. I'm not upset or being overly defensive about WoW. I just see those types of analogies for what they are. A simple minded approach to a situation that is difficult for someone to put in a box.
Its not bull and i never said there was no such thing as a good MMO, only that there was no such thing as a masterpiece, and given that the audience seems to have become more sofisticated than the developers, id even go as far as to say this makes for a more acurate representation of where things stand now.
Youre entitled to your own opinion of what people using the McDonalds analogy may be. Just as i am to mine when it concerns people that seem to feel personally insulted whenever someone refers to WOW in less than flattering terms. Trust me, yours seems gracious in comparison...
My what seems gracious?
I don't even play WoW. I'm not upset or being overly defensive about WoW. I just see those types of analogies for what they are. A simple minded approach to a situation that is difficult for someone to put in a box.
Your opinion. Youre suposed to read the whole paragraph...
And once again, youre not expressing anything but an opinion, as i am.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Hah. I was more than happy to remain on a mature, eloquent and cordial level. It was your decision to drag the discussion down by tossing around insults.
Unfortunately, it is getting a bit tedious now, so I shall once again provide the much-needed maturity by stemming the tide of vitriol.
It is gratifying to see that you were unable to counter my argument; I shall take that as a concession on your part.
I have appointed myself the final judge of this thread. My ruling is that you have won the thread.
How cute, Ilvaldyr has a boyfriend...
I just called him the winner of the thread. That would make you the loser.
Hah. I was more than happy to remain on a mature, eloquent and cordial level. It was your decision to drag the discussion down by tossing around insults.
Unfortunately, it is getting a bit tedious now, so I shall once again provide the much-needed maturity by stemming the tide of vitriol.
It is gratifying to see that you were unable to counter my argument; I shall take that as a concession on your part.
I have appointed myself the final judge of this thread. My ruling is that you have won the thread.
How cute, Ilvaldyr has a boyfriend...
I just called him the winner of the thread. That would make you the loser.
Aww, such a gentleman... cant let your sweetheart fight his own battles?
Im sorry, i didnt realize it would upset you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc
Nothing beats the good old classics...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
The difference between music and an MMORPG is that an mmorpg is COMMUNITY BASED.
A MMORPG with low pop for most people, will be absolutely terrible. I've been trying different MMORPGs recently, and every MMORPG I have tried besides Aion and WoW have been so boring because there's literally no one else to play with.
Sub numbers DO matter.
Umm actually no, its population per server that matters, not sub numbers.
If the particular server your playing on has a reasonably healthy population on it than who cares if there are 10k or 400k subscribers to the game? That 400k subscribers would mean nothing if half of them were inactive casuals (play one Saturday a month for 3 hours) and the other 200k were split between 300 servers. A game with only 10k subscribers split on 2 servers can have a much healthier game play experience if all of them are active.
Your play time also has to factor in on this as well, my play hours (work nights) puts me in the AM hours. As a result of this, even WoW is barren for me unless I play with the Aussies. Although this helped in Aion, never had a queue, no lag, and never had to deal with KSers, but forget getting an elite team together. You see my point?
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)