Originally posted by Torik The main issue with this setup that if you want to make those events that rare, you cannot treat them as 'content' but rather as 'bonuses'. You can't make them vital to player progression or make them pivotal to how the players play everyday. Otherwise you start locking out parts of the game and get a frustrated playerbase.
What do you think about WOW's rare spawns? Those basically fit this category.
As do WOW's somewhat rare world events (little snippets of story told by NPCs doing stuff.)
Tertiary to normal gameplay, but you can miss some of them if you're not around playing the game 24/7.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
About the unique content, I don't think this can be done at all, devs just can't create that amount of events to get all the players entertained, and having he world in so different states for every gamer would be a mess IMO. But, with a little of imagination there can be a pretty good solution for this. For instance, lets imagine an evil dragon. Players start making quests that leads to the fight against the dragon. Eventually, the first group of adventurers kill the dragon. At that point, there is no dragon, and all the quest givers tell that to the players that were following the chain. No evil dragon for lets say one month. I know players get pissed off, it's ok, this is how a world behaves, it's not tailored to the player, it's a world. Then after a period between 30 to 60 days, randomly chosen, a successor to the old dragon appears and quests are active again. I know what many of you are thinking: this sucks I will never get to kill the dragon. Exactly. You will never get to kill the dragon. It's a damn dragon, only a few can kill a dragon. That's how it was in fantasy worlds, chances are you will never see a dragon, let alone kill it.. Are you kidding me? it's an epic MOFO Dragon FFS. I know what you thinking now too: this sucks I want to play the game and I want to be able to kill everything. Well, are you sure? Are you sure you want to kill everything every day until you just don't give a damn if you are killing an incredibly powerfull dragon or a semi-God or whatever? Or do you want to be exploring and hear a rumble and feel your heart beating so fast and get a glimpse of a legendary creature pass by... maybe a thing that will happen to you three or four times in a year. Maybe a little more if you are very dedicated to finding such creatures.
The main issue with this setup that if you want to make those events that rare, you cannot treat them as 'content' but rather as 'bonuses'. You can't make them vital to player progression or make them pivotal to how the players play everyday. Otherwise you start locking out parts of the game and get a frustrated playerbase.
Precisely my point. It's unique content and only meant for certain people. It sure gives you a nice bonus both in a sandbox or a themepark game (even though i'd prefer it in a sandbox environment that had full loot, no not neccessarily ffa pvp but full loot on death so that if you have enough luck some guy who did one of these quests die near you for whatever reason and you can take his beloved unique item whom he got from the quest)
That's pretty much point, if it is 'only meant for certain people' then it is 'non-content' for the rest of the game population. If the fact that you are not one of those 'certain people' is going to have a serious (ie not envy/epeen based) negative effect on you then the game becomes frustrating. It will only get worse if the membership in the 'certain people' group is decided based on arbitrary or biased criteria.
Originally posted by Torik The main issue with this setup that if you want to make those events that rare, you cannot treat them as 'content' but rather as 'bonuses'. You can't make them vital to player progression or make them pivotal to how the players play everyday. Otherwise you start locking out parts of the game and get a frustrated playerbase.
What do you think about WOW's rare spawns? Those basically fit this category.
As do WOW's somewhat rare world events (little snippets of story told by NPCs doing stuff.)
Tertiary to normal gameplay, but you can miss some of them if you're not around playing the game 24/7.
WoW's rare spawns fall into the 'bonus' category. They are there and give nicer rewards for killing but they are not that big a challenge and the rewards do not change the balance of the game in any way. For those who go after them they are a nice bonus but are irrelevant to the overall game population.
As you said yourself WoW's world events are moslty tertiary. If you miss them, you cna keep playing the game as usual. They are once again just a bonus feature and do not define how people play and enjoy the game.
It makes total sense from an immersive rpg perspective (hence why mortal online will have this) The business isn't supposed to be the gamer's problem, the gamer's duty is to pay a reasonable price for the damn product.
And the damn product needs to appeal to a sizable audience so they all keep paying their monthly fees and the company can stay in business. Whether you like it or not, the business *IS* the gamer's problem and understanding why the business has to do certain things to stay in business is just common sense.
If Mortal Online tries to do this, it'll probably fail miserably.
About the unique content, I don't think this can be done at all, devs just can't create that amount of events to get all the players entertained, and having he world in so different states for every gamer would be a mess IMO. But, with a little of imagination there can be a pretty good solution for this. For instance, lets imagine an evil dragon. Players start making quests that leads to the fight against the dragon. Eventually, the first group of adventurers kill the dragon. At that point, there is no dragon, and all the quest givers tell that to the players that were following the chain. No evil dragon for lets say one month. I know players get pissed off, it's ok, this is how a world behaves, it's not tailored to the player, it's a world. Then after a period between 30 to 60 days, randomly chosen, a successor to the old dragon appears and quests are active again. I know what many of you are thinking: this sucks I will never get to kill the dragon. Exactly. You will never get to kill the dragon. It's a damn dragon, only a few can kill a dragon. That's how it was in fantasy worlds, chances are you will never see a dragon, let alone kill it.. Are you kidding me? it's an epic MOFO Dragon FFS. I know what you thinking now too: this sucks I want to play the game and I want to be able to kill everything. Well, are you sure? Are you sure you want to kill everything every day until you just don't give a damn if you are killing an incredibly powerfull dragon or a semi-God or whatever? Or do you want to be exploring and hear a rumble and feel your heart beating so fast and get a glimpse of a legendary creature pass by... maybe a thing that will happen to you three or four times in a year. Maybe a little more if you are very dedicated to finding such creatures.
The main issue with this setup that if you want to make those events that rare, you cannot treat them as 'content' but rather as 'bonuses'. You can't make them vital to player progression or make them pivotal to how the players play everyday. Otherwise you start locking out parts of the game and get a frustrated playerbase.
Precisely my point. It's unique content and only meant for certain people. It sure gives you a nice bonus both in a sandbox or a themepark game (even though i'd prefer it in a sandbox environment that had full loot, no not neccessarily ffa pvp but full loot on death so that if you have enough luck some guy who did one of these quests die near you for whatever reason and you can take his beloved unique item whom he got from the quest)
That's pretty much point, if it is 'only meant for certain people' then it is 'non-content' for the rest of the game population. If the fact that you are not one of those 'certain people' is going to have a serious (ie not envy/epeen based) negative effect on you then the game becomes frustrating. It will only get worse if the membership in the 'certain people' group is decided based on arbitrary or biased criteria.
Not considering the niche group Mortal Online targets. Some people like chance, just look at how popular lotteries are. The only difference here is that you don't have to pay to get a chance (unless you count the monthly fee which would be ridiculous as people play for plenty of other reasons). As said before, i don't want a communist world online where everyone has the exacy same opportunities, it would make the game ridiculously bland and boring (see: all current-gen AAA-mmorpg's)
It makes total sense from an immersive rpg perspective (hence why mortal online will have this) The business isn't supposed to be the gamer's problem, the gamer's duty is to pay a reasonable price for the damn product.
And the damn product needs to appeal to a sizable audience so they all keep paying their monthly fees and the company can stay in business. Whether you like it or not, the business *IS* the gamer's problem and understanding why the business has to do certain things to stay in business is just common sense.
If Mortal Online tries to do this, it'll probably fail miserably.
Pretty sure there's a fairly big crowd longing for mortal online.
Not considering the niche group Mortal Online targets. Some people like chance, just look at how popular lotteries are. The only difference here is that you don't have to pay to get a chance (unless you count the monthly fee which would be ridiculous as people play for plenty of other reasons). As said before, i don't want a communist world online where everyone has the exacy same opportunities, it would make the game ridiculously bland and boring (see: all current-gen AAA-mmorpg's)
I will give you an actual example. Several times Asheron's Call has offered one time only rewards or titles as bonuses. These items or titles were always cosmetic only, to be clear they didn't offer any bonuses of any kind. Yet instead of players saying it was cool that people got unique items a war broke out on the forums over the half saying it's not cool because now they can never get the stupid orb that is simply a house decoration and the group that thinks unique content is fun.
Even live events have that effect, if they're unannounced then players complain that they didn't have a chance to be there because they didn't know ahead of time. As opposed to thinking it was cool that spontaneous events could happen in the world at any time.
Needless to say there hasn't been a unique item or title in a long time in AC, and unannounced live events are less common and less grand.
Too many players want everything and cry if others get access to content that they don't. It's the sad nature of gamers now a days and the "I deserve everything because I'm me" attitude in America now. This prevents companies from doing this type of game because it makes those players (who sadly are the majority) quit the game.
What we need is for a designer to come forward and shake things up. I have seen new games come and those that are coming and it saddens me because I see nothing that will draw me in. I am staying with WoW and EvE, but I am hanging on by a thread. I've reverted to playing more Mount and Blade again because the combat and game play just keeps me playing and that game is hollow - yet it gives me more challenge and I can play a character I can really relate to. None of the current MMORPG's give me that option and that is just sad. All I need is a vast land to travel and adventure in. Let me find my own way. Oh and for those that say I should be playing FE or DF. Sorry...to limited and neither offer the combat I really enjoy of Mount and Blade. I an only hope that someday an online game comes along that allows me to play the way I play in Mount and Blade. ^_^
Oh Teala, its okay if you don't like FE of DF. FE is the closest thing to exciting combat I can find. Shooting a crossbow from a horse in FE feels similar to MnB . Honestly I don't see how WoW offers MnB combat any more or less then FE, but to each their own. I hope you find what you're looking for.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I will give you an actual example. Several times Asheron's Call has offered one time only rewards or titles as bonuses. These items or titles were always cosmetic only, to be clear they didn't offer any bonuses of any kind. Yet instead of players saying it was cool that people got unique items a war broke out on the forums over the half saying it's not cool because now they can never get the stupid orb that is simply a house decoration and the group that thinks unique content is fun.
Even live events have that effect, if they're unannounced then players complain that they didn't have a chance to be there because they didn't know ahead of time. As opposed to thinking it was cool that spontaneous events could happen in the world at any time.
Needless to say there hasn't been a unique item or title in a long time in AC, and unannounced live events are less common and less grand.
Too many players want everything and cry if others get access to content that they don't. It's the sad nature of gamers now a days and the "I deserve everything because I'm me" attitude in America now. This prevents companies from doing this type of game because it makes those players (who sadly are the majority) quit the game.
Blame players, not companies reacting to players.
The problem is the arbitrary nature of these types of events. Why was one group of people included and another exluded? If it is based on player skill or accomplishing tasks then many people will be fine with it. However, often enough these divisions are made based on things out of player's control. They are arbitrary and thus considered unfair. We all pay the same subscription fee and thus expect the company to treat us equally and not give preferential treatment to some customers based on arbitrary criteria. People hate that in RL and hate in the game as well.
You're right about the problem. But I don't know how the developers could achieve what you're trying to say. There must be a point to the game A direction to follow.. Right now it's progression of your character, but what would you replace it with? Or how would you change the emphasis from progression to something else? It must have more significance than leveling up, or it's not going to work..
In my own EQ experience (Pre-PoP), finally getting to top lvl was the end-game (Well, and getting your class epic weapon). The progression was much slower than it is these days, so when finally getting there, it was a major accomplishment...as Epic gear is to players now.
You're right about the problem. But I don't know how the developers could achieve what you're trying to say. There must be a point to the game A direction to follow.. Right now it's progression of your character, but what would you replace it with? Or how would you change the emphasis from progression to something else? It must have more significance than leveling up, or it's not going to work..
In my own EQ experience (Pre-PoP), finally getting to top lvl was the end-game (Well, and getting your class epic weapon). The progression was much slower than it is these days, so when finally getting there, it was a major accomplishment...as Epic gear is to players now.
I come from the same EQ experience too and yes that is exactly it.
I'd like to say, remembering the events in old EQ, that if you have a challenging and living world, any event that in a normal Theme Park MMO would look dull, or you would need a huge amount of content and different stuff and what not, it works beautifully, because it's inmersed in that challenging environment.
For instance, the zombie event last year for halloween in WoW, it was really boring after a while and people complained a lot, myself included. Why? because we were too busy completing dungeons and quests and didn't have time to play zombie and if someone turned you into one it was so annoying. But I'm sure in EQ this same event, which was very well done btw, would work, because everything gets another dimension there, you are not a zombie in some place where you can find anything in a minute or two, you would be a zombie in a hostile land with maybe hours of travel from any place with people from your race that could help you or sell to you.
You're right about the problem. But I don't know how the developers could achieve what you're trying to say. There must be a point to the game A direction to follow.. Right now it's progression of your character, but what would you replace it with? Or how would you change the emphasis from progression to something else? It must have more significance than leveling up, or it's not going to work..
In my own EQ experience (Pre-PoP), finally getting to top lvl was the end-game (Well, and getting your class epic weapon). The progression was much slower than it is these days, so when finally getting there, it was a major accomplishment...as Epic gear is to players now.
I come from the same EQ experience too and yes that is exactly it.
I'd like to say, remembering the events in old EQ, that if you have a challenging and living world, any event that in a normal Theme Park MMO would look dull, or you would need a huge amount of content and different stuff and what not, it works beautifully, because it's inmersed in that challenging environment.
For instance, the zombie event last year for halloween in WoW, it was really boring after a while and people complained a lot, myself included. Why? because we were too busy completing dungeons and quests and didn't have time to play zombie and if someone turned you into one it was so annoying. But I'm sure in EQ this same event, which was very well done btw, would work, because everything gets another dimension there, you are not a zombie in some place where you can find anything in a minute or two, you would be a zombie in a hostile land with maybe hours of travel from any place with people from your race that could help you or sell to you.
I agree with you on all this.
EQ was awesome back in the day just because you really werent in any sort of rush to get anywhere. There wasnt any dire need to get to lvl 50 in a short span of time.
Same for Anarchy Online. Took almost 2 years for us to hit lvl 200 back in the day. There wasnt any driving rush to make it that high. Most of the time my guild was more into just BSing in guild chat or doing random things like pvping, blitzing missions, etc.
The problem today is that games are made so small (even if the game world itself is supposed to be the size of Texas). Levels fly by so damn quickly and its pretty much a must to hit cap as fast as you can to experience the 'meat' of the game (which is usually over faster than a fall from a 30ft drop).
Games should be designed around the world first, with most of the time spent on content for the low to mid levels. There should also be long levels (why the need to level so damn quick?).
The world should contain dungeons and such that are not easily found. They should be set up in a way that promotes exploration. NPCs in cities can talk about them, mention rumors, etc, but not give you the exact location.
Once the game is released thats when they should start on end game content. I know there would be a ton of people who would play 24/7 to reach max level in a short time, and yes, they would be hit with a lack of anything to do. But all in all who cares? Let them and let them whine about it. maxing out in an MMO and skipping 90% of the game is like fast fowarding through a movie and then bitching that you didnt get it.
Also you need to give players other things to do from the begining of the game, something that will allow them to have something other than combat/leveling to focus all their time on. Most games today lack that social aspect. Back in EQ and AO you played with thousands of other people. You knew almost everyone either directly or through passing. In newer games, WoW for example, You dont get that same atmosphere. You end up playing on a server where everyone is a stranger, no matter how long you played with them on taht server. Its just not fun.
Im not saying a game needs to be grindy. Not at all.
But a game needs to be a game, an MMO needs to be a world. And MMOs need to stop making an endgame with a minigame that they call leveling tacked on.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
It's strange; you would think you would feel immersed in a game world with a lot of quests and content to do. But it all just feels shallow and hollow. At first you read a few of the quest text and thoroughly check things, but eventually you just get into a groove and a pattern. You go from quest hub to quest hub not caring much about why you had to collect 10 mushrooms and get 5 bear skins. You just do it. Both of the developer and the player should be blamed: the developer for churning out the same type of content over and over and taking away the thinking out of it and the player for only seeing the end goal and never the journey. Stop and smell roses, much?
I'm the type of player who likes to do the sidequests before the main missions. I'm not in a hurry. I like to go off the beaten path and just explore. A lot of times it's just disappointing playing the newer MMOs and you go off down a section of the map that looks mysterious and enchanting and you see nothing of interest, just another computer-generated plot of land. You'd wish that you would find a rare creature or treasure chest or some kind of trap. But nope;; just a piece of geometry that is no different than the rest.
In regards to randomized content, it's very possible to do. I would love to be in a world where you have a chance to see or experience something incredible and unique. Imagine walking through a forest and the ground shakes and a giant worm that you have never seen before pops up the ground and kills your party in one bite. It would be even nicer if the developer coded that new worm boss into the world without ever notifying the community. Have the worm attack randomly in that forest at different times and the lucky group to encounter it and kill get some awesome loot, but more importantly a cool story to tell. Let the community figure out how to kill it. These types of random encounters and events can take place all over the world. If implemented well then most of the playerbase should be treated to one or two in their play time.
See, I dont' see this as making it unfair. Just because you pay $15 /month as everybody else doesn't mean you are entitled or should expect the same experience as everybody else. You will get the same tools as everyone else to explore and be a part of the world, but how and how often you use them will affect your experience. Plus that $15/month gives you access to the world and all its features. I consider randomized encounters/events as one such feature.
Me, as an achiever, gimme things to achieve, or lose me. As simple as that.
Forcing me to raid won't get you that. I am extremely patient, dedicated, focused, determined, but, at the basic, it must remain something I enjoy, something I play and focus the way I choose...aka, for me it is grouping and/or solo. Other things to achieve such as tradeskills? Perhaps, as long as they are either interesting and/or not frustrating.
Build a yadda yadda yadda world for yadda yadda yadda...well...I am neither an explorer, nor a killer, nor a socialiser (althought I may enjoy each aspect). If you want to see an Anofalye populating your world, gimme things to achieve...endlessly ideally. Because if I run out of achievement, either because they are none, I earn all, or I decide they are not achievable (raiding), then you lose the player.
Now that my schedule and free time is more limited, this is extremely important to be understood, I won't bear with critical flaws such as seen in EQ (raiding), or CoX (Nerf-0-thon, geez, can I achieve and not fight to be un-achieved by some nazi freaks who is busy on game balancing something I don't even care for(PvP? What's that? oh, this is the side activity which will always remain a side activity!))
See, I reach level 350 in Mafia War (Facebook) with no purchase of anything and with no outside help and no cheating, playing by the rules...waiting for my energy to fills back. Zynga devs are also PvP-driven, but, I built up my stamina to 30, which is kinda optimal for some XP earning, and everything else goes in what I like.
What if I am done in a month or two? Well, I will jet out until the game open new stuff and then, I will be back in, rushing in. Perhaps I will start a 2nd or even a 3rd toon to max. What If I am unable to reach the top? That's can be a lot more edgy...I play to excel, to be prime in my stuff...if I don't reach the max, but I see about nobody reaching it and most peoples not ahead of me but a very few who "deserve it", I will continue...if I lose faith in the system.
I don't think there is a clear: Must be able to max it in a month, in 2 months, or endless and impossible to max. It is how it is built and what dreams it allows me to uphold. See, if I am playing a character, and in my classe/field there are about 10 other characters on the whole server who are "competing" with me (I have a good ego, so this could be read: better than me but I somehow think I am better), I have my fuel to always advance my character...beating them or just remaining in the platoon is definitely succifient to keep me dreaming, as long as somehow, I can dream of doing it. Actually reaching it or not, is pointless. There have to be milestones which are significants on the roads, new powers, new abilities, news graphics, new options...on the way. But the details...hardly matter.
My 2 favorites MMOs where EQ (grind-o-meter) and CoX (Almost a I did it button). They are kinda at both extreme of the grind...which I played most? I don't know. I have 2 characters max level in EQ and my twinks are not worth naming, and 1 of the 2 character max level was definitely "important", as the other one would have been a "great casual" at best. In CoX, I think I have maxed about 10 characters and have countless alternates worth naming in comparaison...so both paths actually work.
Grind or not? Who cares? As an "hardcore achiever", I will be happy with either. If I max too fast, I will play other games and do other stuff until the devs add more to earn, if I take almost until expansion to max, then I will focus on this game more. Which is better, higher focus or just coming back each time new stuff to earn? Not sure. Both works. I came back for CoX a LOT and would still be coming back if not for the *&%@@(*&%#* nerfs.
From an achiever point of view, the deepness of the grind doesn't really matter...and if this doesn't matter for an achiever, how could this matter for non-achiever players? Socialisers/Explorers/PvPers always complains about the achievements requirements, perhaps how it is done is more important than the lenght of it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Me, as an achiever, gimme things to achieve, or lose me. As simple as that.
Forcing me to raid won't get you that. I am extremely patient, dedicated, focused, determined, but, at the basic, it must remain something I enjoy, something I play and focus the way I choose...aka, for me it is grouping and/or solo. Other things to achieve such as tradeskills? Perhaps, as long as they are either interesting and/or not frustrating.
Build a yadda yadda yadda world for yadda yadda yadda...well...I am neither an explorer, nor a killer, nor a socialiser (althought I may enjoy each aspect). If you want to see an Anofalye populating your world, gimme things to achieve...endlessly ideally. Because if I run out of achievement, either because they are none, I earn all, or I decide they are not achievable (raiding), then you lose the player.
Now that my schedule and free time is more limited, this is extremely important to be understood, I won't bear with critical flaws such as seen in EQ (raiding), or CoX (Nerf-0-thon, geez, can I achieve and not fight to be un-achieved by some nazi freaks who is busy on game balancing something I don't even care for(PvP? What's that? oh, this is the side activity which will always remain a side activity!))
See, I reach level 350 in Mafia War (Facebook) with no purchase of anything and with no outside help and no cheating, playing by the rules...waiting for my energy to fills back. Zynga devs are also PvP-driven, but, I built up my stamina to 30, which is kinda optimal for some XP earning, and everything else goes in what I like.
What if I am done in a month or two? Well, I will jet out until the game open new stuff and then, I will be back in, rushing in. Perhaps I will start a 2nd or even a 3rd toon to max. What If I am unable to reach the top? That's can be a lot more edgy...I play to excel, to be prime in my stuff...if I don't reach the max, but I see about nobody reaching it and most peoples not ahead of me but a very few who "deserve it", I will continue...if I lose faith in the system.
I don't think there is a clear: Must be able to max it in a month, in 2 months, or endless and impossible to max. It is how it is built and what dreams it allows me to uphold. See, if I am playing a character, and in my classe/field there are about 10 other characters on the whole server who are "competing" with me (I have a good ego, so this could be read: better than me but I somehow think I am better), I have my fuel to always advance my character...beating them or just remaining in the platoon is definitely succifient to keep me dreaming, as long as somehow, I can dream of doing it. Actually reaching it or not, is pointless. There have to be milestones which are significants on the roads, new powers, new abilities, news graphics, new options...on the way. But the details...hardly matter.
My 2 favorites MMOs where EQ (grind-o-meter) and CoX (Almost a I did it button). They are kinda at both extreme of the grind...which I played most? I don't know. I have 2 characters max level in EQ and my twinks are not worth naming, and 1 of the 2 character max level was definitely "important", as the other one would have been a "great casual" at best. In CoX, I think I have maxed about 10 characters and have countless alternates worth naming in comparaison...so both paths actually work.
Grind or not? Who cares? As an "hardcore achiever", I will be happy with either. If I max too fast, I will play other games and do other stuff until the devs add more to earn, if I take almost until expansion to max, then I will focus on this game more. Which is better, higher focus or just coming back each time new stuff to earn? Not sure. Both works. I came back for CoX a LOT and would still be coming back if not for the *&%@@(*&%#* nerfs.
From an achiever point of view, the deepness of the grind doesn't really matter...and if this doesn't matter for an achiever, how could this matter for non-achiever players? Socialisers/Explorers/PvPers always complains about the achievements requirements, perhaps how it is done is more important than the lenght of it.
I am an achiever but in a vastly different way. I want to live a role in the world created that isn't the same as every other <insert archetype here>, hence i prefer crafting/economy in mmo's. This gives me the unique opportunity to become rich while meeting potential friends and/or enemies. As an "achiever" i want to achieve what most people don't: mastery of a non combat-related activity.
Me, as an achiever, gimme things to achieve, or lose me. As simple as that. ...
You are a hardcore achiever. I assume you like challenge, so you like difficult stuff. To accomplish something that not everybody does. To be really dedicated to the game and have a loot to show your achievements.
You see, in WoW what do you have to show? Purple epic huge armor and weapons with cool flashing effects. Really awsome but... everybody has them. So you are forced to have them also and spend quite a lot of time doing it (this is the trap), but when you do, you are just like everybody else (wait for next expansion and repeat). I think WOW players look very silly (I have been a wow player too) showing those weapons because there is a basic contradiction, they are unique crafted items, but... there are hundreds of them! So basically it is just a thing for kids to show off for a while but lacks much interest in the end.
In the game I imagine, you wound't have much to show, maybe a dragon tooth hanging from your neck. Not many people will notice it, but those who will, you can be sure they will remember your name and your story.
I don't mean to bash WOW, I use it as an example because most of us have played it or know about it. I respect WOW as an amzingly well done Theme Park, but not as a true world.
Comments
What do you think about WOW's rare spawns? Those basically fit this category.
As do WOW's somewhat rare world events (little snippets of story told by NPCs doing stuff.)
Tertiary to normal gameplay, but you can miss some of them if you're not around playing the game 24/7.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The main issue with this setup that if you want to make those events that rare, you cannot treat them as 'content' but rather as 'bonuses'. You can't make them vital to player progression or make them pivotal to how the players play everyday. Otherwise you start locking out parts of the game and get a frustrated playerbase.
Precisely my point. It's unique content and only meant for certain people. It sure gives you a nice bonus both in a sandbox or a themepark game (even though i'd prefer it in a sandbox environment that had full loot, no not neccessarily ffa pvp but full loot on death so that if you have enough luck some guy who did one of these quests die near you for whatever reason and you can take his beloved unique item whom he got from the quest)
That's pretty much point, if it is 'only meant for certain people' then it is 'non-content' for the rest of the game population. If the fact that you are not one of those 'certain people' is going to have a serious (ie not envy/epeen based) negative effect on you then the game becomes frustrating. It will only get worse if the membership in the 'certain people' group is decided based on arbitrary or biased criteria.
What do you think about WOW's rare spawns? Those basically fit this category.
As do WOW's somewhat rare world events (little snippets of story told by NPCs doing stuff.)
Tertiary to normal gameplay, but you can miss some of them if you're not around playing the game 24/7.
WoW's rare spawns fall into the 'bonus' category. They are there and give nicer rewards for killing but they are not that big a challenge and the rewards do not change the balance of the game in any way. For those who go after them they are a nice bonus but are irrelevant to the overall game population.
As you said yourself WoW's world events are moslty tertiary. If you miss them, you cna keep playing the game as usual. They are once again just a bonus feature and do not define how people play and enjoy the game.
And the damn product needs to appeal to a sizable audience so they all keep paying their monthly fees and the company can stay in business. Whether you like it or not, the business *IS* the gamer's problem and understanding why the business has to do certain things to stay in business is just common sense.
If Mortal Online tries to do this, it'll probably fail miserably.
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The main issue with this setup that if you want to make those events that rare, you cannot treat them as 'content' but rather as 'bonuses'. You can't make them vital to player progression or make them pivotal to how the players play everyday. Otherwise you start locking out parts of the game and get a frustrated playerbase.
Precisely my point. It's unique content and only meant for certain people. It sure gives you a nice bonus both in a sandbox or a themepark game (even though i'd prefer it in a sandbox environment that had full loot, no not neccessarily ffa pvp but full loot on death so that if you have enough luck some guy who did one of these quests die near you for whatever reason and you can take his beloved unique item whom he got from the quest)
That's pretty much point, if it is 'only meant for certain people' then it is 'non-content' for the rest of the game population. If the fact that you are not one of those 'certain people' is going to have a serious (ie not envy/epeen based) negative effect on you then the game becomes frustrating. It will only get worse if the membership in the 'certain people' group is decided based on arbitrary or biased criteria.
Not considering the niche group Mortal Online targets. Some people like chance, just look at how popular lotteries are. The only difference here is that you don't have to pay to get a chance (unless you count the monthly fee which would be ridiculous as people play for plenty of other reasons). As said before, i don't want a communist world online where everyone has the exacy same opportunities, it would make the game ridiculously bland and boring (see: all current-gen AAA-mmorpg's)
And the damn product needs to appeal to a sizable audience so they all keep paying their monthly fees and the company can stay in business. Whether you like it or not, the business *IS* the gamer's problem and understanding why the business has to do certain things to stay in business is just common sense.
If Mortal Online tries to do this, it'll probably fail miserably.
Pretty sure there's a fairly big crowd longing for mortal online.
I will give you an actual example. Several times Asheron's Call has offered one time only rewards or titles as bonuses. These items or titles were always cosmetic only, to be clear they didn't offer any bonuses of any kind. Yet instead of players saying it was cool that people got unique items a war broke out on the forums over the half saying it's not cool because now they can never get the stupid orb that is simply a house decoration and the group that thinks unique content is fun.
Even live events have that effect, if they're unannounced then players complain that they didn't have a chance to be there because they didn't know ahead of time. As opposed to thinking it was cool that spontaneous events could happen in the world at any time.
Needless to say there hasn't been a unique item or title in a long time in AC, and unannounced live events are less common and less grand.
Too many players want everything and cry if others get access to content that they don't. It's the sad nature of gamers now a days and the "I deserve everything because I'm me" attitude in America now. This prevents companies from doing this type of game because it makes those players (who sadly are the majority) quit the game.
Blame players, not companies reacting to players.
Oh Teala, its okay if you don't like FE of DF. FE is the closest thing to exciting combat I can find. Shooting a crossbow from a horse in FE feels similar to MnB
. Honestly I don't see how WoW offers MnB combat any more or less then FE, but to each their own. I hope you find what you're looking for.
The problem is the arbitrary nature of these types of events. Why was one group of people included and another exluded? If it is based on player skill or accomplishing tasks then many people will be fine with it. However, often enough these divisions are made based on things out of player's control. They are arbitrary and thus considered unfair. We all pay the same subscription fee and thus expect the company to treat us equally and not give preferential treatment to some customers based on arbitrary criteria. People hate that in RL and hate in the game as well.
In my own EQ experience (Pre-PoP), finally getting to top lvl was the end-game (Well, and getting your class epic weapon). The progression was much slower than it is these days, so when finally getting there, it was a major accomplishment...as Epic gear is to players now.
In my own EQ experience (Pre-PoP), finally getting to top lvl was the end-game (Well, and getting your class epic weapon). The progression was much slower than it is these days, so when finally getting there, it was a major accomplishment...as Epic gear is to players now.
I come from the same EQ experience too and yes that is exactly it.
I'd like to say, remembering the events in old EQ, that if you have a challenging and living world, any event that in a normal Theme Park MMO would look dull, or you would need a huge amount of content and different stuff and what not, it works beautifully, because it's inmersed in that challenging environment.
For instance, the zombie event last year for halloween in WoW, it was really boring after a while and people complained a lot, myself included. Why? because we were too busy completing dungeons and quests and didn't have time to play zombie and if someone turned you into one it was so annoying. But I'm sure in EQ this same event, which was very well done btw, would work, because everything gets another dimension there, you are not a zombie in some place where you can find anything in a minute or two, you would be a zombie in a hostile land with maybe hours of travel from any place with people from your race that could help you or sell to you.
In my own EQ experience (Pre-PoP), finally getting to top lvl was the end-game (Well, and getting your class epic weapon). The progression was much slower than it is these days, so when finally getting there, it was a major accomplishment...as Epic gear is to players now.
I come from the same EQ experience too and yes that is exactly it.
I'd like to say, remembering the events in old EQ, that if you have a challenging and living world, any event that in a normal Theme Park MMO would look dull, or you would need a huge amount of content and different stuff and what not, it works beautifully, because it's inmersed in that challenging environment.
For instance, the zombie event last year for halloween in WoW, it was really boring after a while and people complained a lot, myself included. Why? because we were too busy completing dungeons and quests and didn't have time to play zombie and if someone turned you into one it was so annoying. But I'm sure in EQ this same event, which was very well done btw, would work, because everything gets another dimension there, you are not a zombie in some place where you can find anything in a minute or two, you would be a zombie in a hostile land with maybe hours of travel from any place with people from your race that could help you or sell to you.
I agree with you on all this.
EQ was awesome back in the day just because you really werent in any sort of rush to get anywhere. There wasnt any dire need to get to lvl 50 in a short span of time.
Same for Anarchy Online. Took almost 2 years for us to hit lvl 200 back in the day. There wasnt any driving rush to make it that high. Most of the time my guild was more into just BSing in guild chat or doing random things like pvping, blitzing missions, etc.
The problem today is that games are made so small (even if the game world itself is supposed to be the size of Texas). Levels fly by so damn quickly and its pretty much a must to hit cap as fast as you can to experience the 'meat' of the game (which is usually over faster than a fall from a 30ft drop).
Games should be designed around the world first, with most of the time spent on content for the low to mid levels. There should also be long levels (why the need to level so damn quick?).
The world should contain dungeons and such that are not easily found. They should be set up in a way that promotes exploration. NPCs in cities can talk about them, mention rumors, etc, but not give you the exact location.
Once the game is released thats when they should start on end game content. I know there would be a ton of people who would play 24/7 to reach max level in a short time, and yes, they would be hit with a lack of anything to do. But all in all who cares? Let them and let them whine about it. maxing out in an MMO and skipping 90% of the game is like fast fowarding through a movie and then bitching that you didnt get it.
Also you need to give players other things to do from the begining of the game, something that will allow them to have something other than combat/leveling to focus all their time on. Most games today lack that social aspect. Back in EQ and AO you played with thousands of other people. You knew almost everyone either directly or through passing. In newer games, WoW for example, You dont get that same atmosphere. You end up playing on a server where everyone is a stranger, no matter how long you played with them on taht server. Its just not fun.
Im not saying a game needs to be grindy. Not at all.
But a game needs to be a game, an MMO needs to be a world. And MMOs need to stop making an endgame with a minigame that they call leveling tacked on.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I completely agree with the OP.
It's strange; you would think you would feel immersed in a game world with a lot of quests and content to do. But it all just feels shallow and hollow. At first you read a few of the quest text and thoroughly check things, but eventually you just get into a groove and a pattern. You go from quest hub to quest hub not caring much about why you had to collect 10 mushrooms and get 5 bear skins. You just do it. Both of the developer and the player should be blamed: the developer for churning out the same type of content over and over and taking away the thinking out of it and the player for only seeing the end goal and never the journey. Stop and smell roses, much?
I'm the type of player who likes to do the sidequests before the main missions. I'm not in a hurry. I like to go off the beaten path and just explore. A lot of times it's just disappointing playing the newer MMOs and you go off down a section of the map that looks mysterious and enchanting and you see nothing of interest, just another computer-generated plot of land. You'd wish that you would find a rare creature or treasure chest or some kind of trap. But nope;; just a piece of geometry that is no different than the rest.
In regards to randomized content, it's very possible to do. I would love to be in a world where you have a chance to see or experience something incredible and unique. Imagine walking through a forest and the ground shakes and a giant worm that you have never seen before pops up the ground and kills your party in one bite. It would be even nicer if the developer coded that new worm boss into the world without ever notifying the community. Have the worm attack randomly in that forest at different times and the lucky group to encounter it and kill get some awesome loot, but more importantly a cool story to tell. Let the community figure out how to kill it. These types of random encounters and events can take place all over the world. If implemented well then most of the playerbase should be treated to one or two in their play time.
See, I dont' see this as making it unfair. Just because you pay $15 /month as everybody else doesn't mean you are entitled or should expect the same experience as everybody else. You will get the same tools as everyone else to explore and be a part of the world, but how and how often you use them will affect your experience. Plus that $15/month gives you access to the world and all its features. I consider randomized encounters/events as one such feature.
Overly complex guys.
Me, as an achiever, gimme things to achieve, or lose me. As simple as that.
Forcing me to raid won't get you that. I am extremely patient, dedicated, focused, determined, but, at the basic, it must remain something I enjoy, something I play and focus the way I choose...aka, for me it is grouping and/or solo. Other things to achieve such as tradeskills? Perhaps, as long as they are either interesting and/or not frustrating.
Build a yadda yadda yadda world for yadda yadda yadda...well...I am neither an explorer, nor a killer, nor a socialiser (althought I may enjoy each aspect). If you want to see an Anofalye populating your world, gimme things to achieve...endlessly ideally. Because if I run out of achievement, either because they are none, I earn all, or I decide they are not achievable (raiding), then you lose the player.
Now that my schedule and free time is more limited, this is extremely important to be understood, I won't bear with critical flaws such as seen in EQ (raiding), or CoX (Nerf-0-thon, geez, can I achieve and not fight to be un-achieved by some nazi freaks who is busy on game balancing something I don't even care for(PvP? What's that? oh, this is the side activity which will always remain a side activity!))
See, I reach level 350 in Mafia War (Facebook) with no purchase of anything and with no outside help and no cheating, playing by the rules...waiting for my energy to fills back. Zynga devs are also PvP-driven, but, I built up my stamina to 30, which is kinda optimal for some XP earning, and everything else goes in what I like.
What if I am done in a month or two? Well, I will jet out until the game open new stuff and then, I will be back in, rushing in. Perhaps I will start a 2nd or even a 3rd toon to max. What If I am unable to reach the top? That's can be a lot more edgy...I play to excel, to be prime in my stuff...if I don't reach the max, but I see about nobody reaching it and most peoples not ahead of me but a very few who "deserve it", I will continue...if I lose faith in the system.
I don't think there is a clear: Must be able to max it in a month, in 2 months, or endless and impossible to max. It is how it is built and what dreams it allows me to uphold. See, if I am playing a character, and in my classe/field there are about 10 other characters on the whole server who are "competing" with me (I have a good ego, so this could be read: better than me but I somehow think I am better), I have my fuel to always advance my character...beating them or just remaining in the platoon is definitely succifient to keep me dreaming, as long as somehow, I can dream of doing it. Actually reaching it or not, is pointless. There have to be milestones which are significants on the roads, new powers, new abilities, news graphics, new options...on the way. But the details...hardly matter.
My 2 favorites MMOs where EQ (grind-o-meter) and CoX (Almost a I did it button). They are kinda at both extreme of the grind...which I played most? I don't know. I have 2 characters max level in EQ and my twinks are not worth naming, and 1 of the 2 character max level was definitely "important", as the other one would have been a "great casual" at best. In CoX, I think I have maxed about 10 characters and have countless alternates worth naming in comparaison...so both paths actually work.
Grind or not? Who cares? As an "hardcore achiever", I will be happy with either. If I max too fast, I will play other games and do other stuff until the devs add more to earn, if I take almost until expansion to max, then I will focus on this game more. Which is better, higher focus or just coming back each time new stuff to earn? Not sure. Both works. I came back for CoX a LOT and would still be coming back if not for the *&%@@(*&%#* nerfs.
From an achiever point of view, the deepness of the grind doesn't really matter...and if this doesn't matter for an achiever, how could this matter for non-achiever players? Socialisers/Explorers/PvPers always complains about the achievements requirements, perhaps how it is done is more important than the lenght of it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I am an achiever but in a vastly different way. I want to live a role in the world created that isn't the same as every other <insert archetype here>, hence i prefer crafting/economy in mmo's. This gives me the unique opportunity to become rich while meeting potential friends and/or enemies. As an "achiever" i want to achieve what most people don't: mastery of a non combat-related activity.
You are a hardcore achiever. I assume you like challenge, so you like difficult stuff. To accomplish something that not everybody does. To be really dedicated to the game and have a loot to show your achievements.
You see, in WoW what do you have to show? Purple epic huge armor and weapons with cool flashing effects. Really awsome but... everybody has them. So you are forced to have them also and spend quite a lot of time doing it (this is the trap), but when you do, you are just like everybody else (wait for next expansion and repeat). I think WOW players look very silly (I have been a wow player too) showing those weapons because there is a basic contradiction, they are unique crafted items, but... there are hundreds of them! So basically it is just a thing for kids to show off for a while but lacks much interest in the end.
In the game I imagine, you wound't have much to show, maybe a dragon tooth hanging from your neck. Not many people will notice it, but those who will, you can be sure they will remember your name and your story.
I don't mean to bash WOW, I use it as an example because most of us have played it or know about it. I respect WOW as an amzingly well done Theme Park, but not as a true world.