Advertising and Editorial are handled 100% separately here. Literally, the people selling the ads are in Hawaii and the people doing the editorial are in Eastern Canada and the New York/New Jersey area. We have zero idea what's on the page as far as ads go beyond what we see visiting the site like the rest of you.
Clearly, Dragon Age is advertising here, but that had nothing to do with why we spoke to them.
Honestly, we made the decision some time ago to at least cover the game to some extent. The reasons are simple:
It's an RPG. We run a site called MMORPG.com, and figure most our audience at least cares about single-player RPGs. Those that don't can easily just ignore the article. That said, that alone is not enough for us to cover it. But it did contribute.
It's by a company currently making an MMORPG (Star Wars: The Old Republic) and the two could theoretically have a lot of influence. The original Lead Designer of Dragon Age literally moved to Austin to work on Star Wars.
NWN and the break-off community showed that Bioware games sometimes get made into MMOs by the community. That is not possible in Dragon Age, as we later learned, but I would expect that they'll add online functionality to the community eventually (purely my opinion).
A lot of threads on this site and in this community complain about the lack of new ideas in MMOs. Here we have a really hyped RPG, the first one in ages, and so it's not a huge stretch to say that MMO companies are watching it closely.
Frankly, glancing at our forums, I think Dragon Age may be the most discussed game on our site right now (independently of us). It shows there's an appetite for it.
All this said, covering single-player RPGs is the exception, not the rule. We will not list Dragon Age, and likely only cover RPGs by MMO developers. Take Torchlight, which we have also covered, since it's directly becoming an MMO. We will likely also have an article or three on Diablo III. At the same time, though, I doubt you'll see much, if any, Starcraft II coverage here.
So that's the line in the sand we've drawn and the logic we used, for those who want to know.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
...Literally, the people selling the ads are in Hawaii and the people doing the editorial are in Eastern Canada and the New York/New Jersey area.
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Luckily, it seems, for me I've never much cared for the previous Bioware games I've come across so all this supposedly "tired" content is brand new to me. Dragon Age's setting is just so rich and plausible in a way most fantasy settings aren't that I believe it's a real world in a way Oblivion never quite sold me on even as much free-roaming as it let me do. Fallout 3 pulled it off with a very stylistic and interesting setting but the NPCs were generally bland or, worse, just annoying. None of them really tickled my imagination though I loved exploring the world, that I did. So much to find out there. DA's characters, every one in my party so far, is interesting to me. I often pick companions for an adventure based on curiosity about how they'll interact with each other or the adventure as much as their actual combat utility. In fact, the difficulty of the gameplay (at least in the console version - the optional bird's eye view and MMO GUI on the PC version make handling the tactical chores much easier from what I've read) is making my approach less practical. I may just switch to Easy Mode rather than letting some developer's tactical puzzle be the boss of me. And, I touched on this in my last post, the world is a wonderful reinvention of fantasy cliches and historical settings. It's gritty but warm, dark and light, plausible and all the rest. More than that even is just how well it all fits together to create immersion. I'm generally skeptical of narrative heavy games because I find they drag me in directions I don't want to go and limit what I can do. They often seem shallow or boring and almost always unrealistic and predictable. Dragon Age is so well crafted, evades so many pitfalls, that I'm entirely happy following along their story because I feel I've the wiggle room to put my own spin on things.
I have to say that you touch upon a lot that I am thinking.
I also pick characters for story purposes.
For instance, and I'm sure I'm not really giving anything away here, there is a point where the husband of a paragon dwarf wants to come with you because you are going to look for her. Now, i could have just taken my usual party but it made more sense to take him, even though I found his character despicable (in a good way) and quite frankly I didn't need another damage dealer.
A good way through your journey, approaching the end point, bioware gives you another chance to change out the character. My initialy thought is "ok, I suppose someone might want to mix it up for a variety fo reasons, but I have been in these tunnels with this group looking for this person and changing it now, even though I want to, would not make sense storywise.
I put together parties based upon what I think makes sense to the over all story and to my character. At one point, even though I didn't need morrigan as I had the mage from the tower (great healer) I decided that the party felt too bland and needed the extra spice that morrigan brought. Yes, it's a familare taste but going forward the party needed a bit something else to flesh out the experience as the current party I had were all the same flavor.
And though I did play Baldur's gate, the sequel to a point (I had to stop as I couldn't get into it) and both neverwinter nights games (the secone one I also had to stop as it kept having lulls for me that I just coulnd't get through) Dragon age speaks to me a bit more and feels more compelling. I have been playing it in my spare time and I have not wanted to stop. As I said to my apartment mate, I felt like playing it all night and NOT going to my girlfriend's place (of course I went, real life has far more over games to my thinking) and I haven't felt like that in a game for a long time.
And I think you also hit it on the head regarding Oblivion (or even morrowind). I love those games and have played the heck out of them. I still play Oblvion. But with all the strengths that both games have, sometimes the free roaming takes a bit out of the momentum.
Sure, bioware games are very consciously theaterical stages where you are a part of a forward moving story. Sure you can do the sub quests but you are in a very defined space. We are not just going to explore for the sake of exploring a world because it's just not there. In some ways that is a shame.
However, what we do get is a more pointed story and greater sense of urgency for those who can buy into the experience.
As for the above regarding buying the whole game as opposed to nickle and diming, I can appreciate the sentiment but I think it's just a marketing tool to prepare customers for the 2 years of content that bioware will be bringing down the pike.
We have purchased the whole game. But bioware has set up a sytem where that game will be added to. It is in a sense their advertisement for a service that interested players can take advantage of if they so desire.
And quite frankly I'm in. I enjoy adding to games that I really want to play.
Heck, I really would like another Oblivion pack. I go out of my way to download the player stories because I want to continue the journey of my character.
And as I never have a problem paying for my entertainment provided I am getting good value, I will purchase the expansions or additional adventures if it means that I can enjoy my character and this world for a bit more.
mmo's do this and they don't have nearly as much story narrative as single player games. Something that I've been thinking about a lot since oblivion and Dragon Age.
Mmo's allow me to be with my character for years. And to a point they provide a rich game world to explore (hopefully). However, I have more sense of story in single player games which unforunatley end way too soon for my tastes.
I can be engrossed in a world without seeing players shooting the shit in chat, dancing on tables or in the cities or jumping up and down in my face while I'm trying to do something. it's those reasons where mmo's fail for me.
I want to be engrossed in story with a charcter that I nurture. MMo's allow me to nurture that character but it takes more for me to become immersed in the stories because other players are running through content (DDO) or too busy using the mmo as a social tool than a story based game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Overhyped? Hardly. And comparing it to WoW is a stretch as well. I haven't even leaped on WoW since the game released and sure as heck haven't touched Aion neither. But then again I know some of you from your posts and you usually have nothing but negative things to say anyway. Jessica Biel could strip in front of you naked and you would still find something wrong. So to each their own.
I am loving the game and many things Mike states in the article are dead on. MMO's are missing some of those elements especially the feeling that we actually have an impact on the world around us. I see many MMO gamers complain about such. Story is iffy with some folks but I for one love a good story. It helps bring you into the game and create immersion. Now some don't seek that and that's understandable but I think a stronger number actually do. The story in DAO is anything but the usual. Since when is it usual that the elves are treated with disdain and servants? Usually they are looked upon in a higher light as if they are the betters among the races.
Characterization is same ol'? How? You could always make a mage that can wear plate? One that has the ability to be an Arcane Warrior using their magic to be a warrior on the field? For dealing with a genre and industry that is littered with fantasy games and various classes you have a limit on what you can do to totally be original and out of the box. They did a rather good job at it in my opinion.
At this point Bioware may be on a roll with this game then Mass Effect due in January of 2010 and then Knights of the Old Republic due somewhere from next year to 2011. So I give them their props....they are definitely earning it...and my money it seems.
I find the article amusing. Dragon Age copied from World of Warcraft everything but the User friendliness of its interface. There is no Auto Target or Nearest Enemy Target key. So whereas in World of Warcraft you press Tab to target an enemy and then attack it with a button on your hotbar, you can't do that with Dragon Age. YOu must click the Target. You also have no Target Portrait, so you need to pause the game to try to figure out who you have targeted. If your ally is infront you...then sorry bub but you can't target anything but your ally...unless you rotate the camera in various ways to try to click the enemy you wish to attack. Other things are the Map and the Quest targets. In World of Warcraft, especially with recent user created enhancements such as quest helper, Tom Tom and Carbonite you are never at a loss for what you have to do next. However this isn't the case in Dragon Age. The Codex and Journal are cryptic messes of text that make following quests and storylines very difficult. Whereas in World of Warcraft with these mods you can bring up the overhead map and see exactly where you need to go, in Dragon Age you frequently lose track, especially traveling between cities. Some quests are given in one town, but you actually need to go somewhere else to do the quest...and then return to the town. When you return you'd better remember who gave you the quest and where they were, because unless you are on the right map you won't see the quest marker. Now let's go onto Leveling up and completing quest objectives. World of Warcraft makes it very clear when a player levels up, in fact they make it a big deal with a recognisable sound , onscreen graphic effect and text that appears at the top center of the screen, very readable and noticeable indicating you have levelled up. If you are on multiple quests, a Quest Objective tracker keeps track of the quests, multiple quests, as you do them. You can tell at a glance what you have to do next. If you put the game down for three weeks and return to it, you won't be lost. Not so with Dragon Age. Notifications are tiny and placed in the lower left of your screen, well out of the way of the focus of your eyes. You need to go back and forth to the ineffective and confusing Journal repeatedly to keep track of what you have to do. And at some points you coudl have over 20 quests in the journal. Another issue is that the User Interface does NOT SCALE. So whereas with world of warcraft if I set my resolution to 1920 x 1200 or heck..2530 x whatever I can then adjust a Scale to make everything a bit bigger and more readable...you can't do that in Dragon Age. Dragon Age's interface is the same interface style we've seen from the 1990s. So unless this Dragon Age spokesperson is saying that Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights drew on the user interface of World of Warcraft, he's full of it. World of Warcraft with its user mods are a 10/10 with regards User Interface, Dragon Age would be a 5.5/10 They do nothing new and unique, and do a lot much worse to what gamers are used to in 2009 in an RPG.
Anyone who baselines against WoW is clueless, especiallly considering Bioware and their excellence existed long before wow.
The depth within the DA game is exceptional... as far as MMOs go just watch Bioware take the market with their MMO development....
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
...Literally, the people selling the ads are in Hawaii and the people doing the editorial are in Eastern Canada and the New York/New Jersey area.
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Yes and no. If we were all in an office together, we'd pick things up is my point.
The general point is: the editorial team never discusses ads with the advertising team. Period.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
The first major release of Bioware under EA's banner is, in my opinion, a disappointment.
Trying to hit me up for premium content the moment it's installed is a slap in the face. So, EA it isn't enough I just plopped down $50 for this game you want more money already? Bad enough Mass Effect is charging $5 for the new patch, at least that game is over a year old. Really ruins the immersion when PREMIUM CONTENT is in big letters on my quest journal AND there is an npc in the party camp reminding me that I didn't buy it yet.
Game is rather buggy. Forums are alight with numerous posts about choppy gameplay, load times taking several minutes and downloaded content not being downloaded. I can run Mass Effect, Age of Conan, Prototype and Batman Arkham Asylum on max settings with no issues, yet running DA on minimum settings I get load times up to 15 mins and framerate measured in the low single digits. That is inexcuseable QA. Think about this, game came out tuesday and friday there was already a patch out for it.
I've already cancelled my ME2 preorder. If they can't get this game working after 5 years of development, how good can ME2 be with less than 2?
...Literally, the people selling the ads are in Hawaii and the people doing the editorial are in Eastern Canada and the New York/New Jersey area.
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Yes and no. If we were all in an office together, we'd pick things up is my point.
The general point is: the editorial team never discusses ads with the advertising team. Period.
Perhaps some interdepartmental communication would do you guys some good then. Question, do the writers LOOK at the site? You do know the ads for Dragon Age were up far in advance of the article right?
Do you guys not run the articles by Craig and Ben? How much input do they have on what you guys write about? Just curious.
Did they not know that might come across looking like more paid advertising?
How important is it for mmorpg.com to have the appearance of journalistic integrity? I'm not mocking here, I'm being serious, because if appearing to have journalistic integrity is important on this site, I have to say you're failing.
[quote]The writers looked at things like the idea of using or abusing power and racism among the elves, dwarves, and humans. They wanted tough issues that never really got to this depth in previous fantasy titles[/quote]
i don't know if it has already been said (don't have the time to read through all the replies) but dragon age is not the first attempt at introducing mature content in the fantasy genre. surely devs made an excellent work, but when it come to tough issues, the witcher imho got it better. in any case, i always appreciate this sort of attempts
...almost nothing good ever comes out of korea, besides hordes of big boobed lolitas they never had and never will have...
Retired from: UO, DAoC, WoW. Loved 'till their death: Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa Playing now: Fallen Earth Waiting for: Earthrise, Mortal Online
...Literally, the people selling the ads are in Hawaii and the people doing the editorial are in Eastern Canada and the New York/New Jersey area.
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Yes and no. If we were all in an office together, we'd pick things up is my point.
The general point is: the editorial team never discusses ads with the advertising team. Period.
Perhaps some interdepartmental communication would do you guys some good then. Question, do the writers LOOK at the site? You do know the ads for Dragon Age were up far in advance of the article right?
Do you guys not run the articles by Craig and Ben? How much input do they have on what you guys write about? Just curious.
Did they not know that might come across looking like more paid advertising?
How important is it for mmorpg.com to have the appearance of journalistic integrity? I'm not mocking here, I'm being serious, because if appearing to have journalistic integrity is important on this site, I have to say you're failing.
I'm not saying we don't talk ever, I'm saying we never discuss advertising.
Obviously, we can see the ads on the site, but we have covered this game well in advance of launch, well before the ads.
Craig/Ben run the site, but generally leave the editorial alone. They never request we cover specific games (so as not to let ads influence things). Their involvement is more on the "we want to add feature X to the site" side of things (like blogs), or asking for more/less of certain kinds of articles (like say reviews in general). Nothing to do with specific titles.
The fact is, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, people demand we only show advertising for MMOs or related titles. So we do. You don't see car banners, Phoenix University, and Orbitz as a matter of general policy, which Craig has posted here several times.
Yet on the other hand, people get mad when there is editorial on games that do have ads. If we never wrote about games that have ads on our site, there would be no content. Period. I cannot think of a single major MMO launch that I don't remember seeing an ad for on the site. Should we stop covering Aion and Warhammer too?
To me, it's no different than CNN reporting on Obama and McCain during the election, yet still running campaign ads. It's the cost of doing business and why we're very careful to keep the two streams separate.
There is no way to prove this, but I can say I've never once seen an ad on the site and gone out to cover the game because of it. We have also never been asked to post something on someone because they were going to advertise or as part of any financial deal.
I will say now, we plan to do about the same amount of coverage as we did on Dragon Age on Diablo III and Mass Effect II for exactly the same reasons we covered Dragon Age (see first post I made). If one or both advertises, good for them. If they don't, that's fine too. The decision long predates that.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Seriously, that was the most intense fight I had in years. We need more fights like that in games in general. (I loved that my main character, the tank, got the last blow. Glorious death!)
I love that game even if enough times i curse Mike (Sorry Mike) who spawns 14 skels just in front of me (the ghost little boy in the dungeon) just because he wants to push me to the limits, it may also be my fault since i chose to auto level most of my party chars, but anyway after i finish a battle i always say that most unsuccessful attempts were my fault.
I would like to add that mmorpgs should give the player more options to decide if he wants to do battle or not and his decisions should affect his alignment a lot with rewards and penalties as in P&P rpgs, also playing a hard game is not a big deal since in mmos there are many players who manage to reach the cap in couple of weeks.
Also i would like to ask if Bioware is planning to add a custom formation feature to DA like baldur's gate did since imo the lack of it makes the game more difficult than it should be.
Dragon Age is the #1 game in history right now! It blows MMO's away and they know it! It completely stopped me from playing CO and even caring about STO beta. One of he best things about this game is if other people complain about it and quit I dont care it doesnt effect my experience. Multiplayer is overrated and is actually just frustrating dealing with people whining and changing the game I'm playing. Dragon Age may signal the end of MMO gaming as being the overall best format for rpg. Single player is BACK!
Why are you posting here?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Dana I will say now, we plan to do about the same amount of coverage as we did on Dragon Age on Diablo III and Mass Effect II for exactly the same reasons we covered Dragon Age (see first post I made). If one or both advertises, good for them. If they don't, that's fine too. The decision long predates that.
It's the wrong decision. This is supposed to be an MMO site. Those games you mentioned don't fit that category.
It's as simple as that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Dragon Age is the #1 game in history right now! It blows MMO's away and they know it! It completely stopped me from playing CO and even caring about STO beta. One of he best things about this game is if other people complain about it and quit I dont care it doesnt effect my experience. Multiplayer is overrated and is actually just frustrating dealing with people whining and changing the game I'm playing. Dragon Age may signal the end of MMO gaming as being the overall best format for rpg. Single player is BACK!
Why are you posting here?
I sort of see his point. As I said above, it seems that mmo's are about being social portals where players can chat and experience some game play. Even in DDO where the quests really are about quests and less about killing x of y, you see players ramming through the content. Some of that (most?) is the fault of the game design where running quests is the way you level.
I'm sure we all can agree that for the most part, once we've experienced quest dialoge and story points for a few times, it becomes more about clicking through it. Sort of a "yeah, yeah, I read this several times before 'got it'"
If their new Star Wars game is successful I can easily see more mmo's going this route for the simple reason that it brings back the story and gameplay of role playing games.
I can't see mmo's continuing for years with the current system. Not that it's horrible but the current system seems to be about something else.
I love leveling and adding skills and upgrading my characters. But I noticed that I rarely if ever looked at the xp bar in Dragon Age. Or heck, even Oblivion.
I think if a game company were to put out an mmo that catered more toward story at the expense of the whole open world concept where everyone is just running around doing whatever (dancing, calling people noobs, discussing sports, dueling in the warehouse ares, etc) I would probably be more prone to gravitate toward those games.
I'm not sure everyone would but those people who really want to be steeped in story and where their character falls within that story might also do the same.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
there is nothing to spoil for me, I simply wont buy the game. When I pay for a single player game, I want to play the entire game. Being milked is for cows and other such creatures.
Well, you can certainly just not play the game, but if you play an MMO, your argument holds no water.
Expansion packs and content are added to games continuously. Are you still playing any MMO with the original content? Why is that different? Just because the ad comes from one npc, rather than gate appearing in a zone, or people returning with gear you can never have unless you buy it?
I don't see what sense your argument makes if you play an MMO. You're being milked there worse than anywhere, because to be competitive or to even have others to play with, you generally are almost forced into buying it.
There's absolutely 0 need for you to buy the DLC in Dragon Age. The whole game can be played without it.
But then again, nothings stopping you from simply not playing. It is, of course, your perogative.
You know I wonder if anyone actually understood the point I was making.
The interview focused on the similarities between Dragon Age and World of Warcraft at one point, and what one could learn from the other.
My point is that I think that World of Warcraft, with the various mods, is a great interface for an RPG on the computer. The easy movement, camera control, targeting flexibility etc. is spot on.
These are things that Dragon Age did not quite capture. They came close, but then stopped short..and to me that actually made it seem worse.
Dragon Age does not have:
1) Targeting and Auto Target functionality with the keyboard. You cannot click TAB and target the nearest opponent, or cycle through opponents. If you try to shoot Lightning without manually selecting a target, you need to click again. That's clunky. Why isn't there an option to auto select a target? How many recent RPGs, single or multiplayer do not contain some sort of auto-target functionality?
2) The Quest Target system could be a lot better. If the person I need to visit is in a house, I don't see the quest target marker. This happened more than a few times in Denerim.
3) The Codex and Journal are very clumsy. The Codex consists of a series of numbered icons under broad headings. How on earth is that user friendly? I am hoping that someone takes ALL the Codex items and puts them online, at least then I can read them properly. Mass Effect's codex wasn't perfect, but it was a whole lot better than what we have in Dragon Age.
4) No onscreen Quest Objective tracking. Its easy to miss when you have completed a quest objective. There is no onscreen mission objective tracker. You must keep checking your Journal.
5) No Target Portraits - You need to zoom out and rotate the camera to figure out which opponent you are targeting in larger battles. Why do they not have Target Portraits? These work hand in hand with keyboard targeting to improve the user's awareness. Yes I can pause the game and rotate the camera and try to figure things out...but in a flowing battle situation that becomes very clumsy and it feels like I am fighting the game AND the opponents, rather than just using the tools available to plan my strategy.
6) The UI cannot be Scaled - There is no slider to Scale the user interface elements for those with High Resolution, widescreen displays. 1920 and up. The text remains small, the interface elements remain small.
These are short comings in the User Interface Design when compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, Runes of Magic, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Fable II , Borderlands all have better User Interfaces and present information to the player more efficiently than Dragon Age does.
That does not say that Dragon Age is a bad game, far from it! It does several things very well.The story is good, I like the character interaction, the fact that there is a toolset is great...in my view the game is a MUST BUY for RPG aficionandos. And we know all the things it does well, we've all read the reviews if not played it ourselves.
However there are flaws.It *feels* to me like a sort of Reskin of older games i've played before. And in some cases there's nothing wrong with that...but Interfaces have moved on, and if one is going to compare their recent game to others on the market with respect to UI...then there's some justifiable and constructive criticism that can be leveled.
You know I wonder if anyone actually understood the point I was making.
The interview focused on the similarities between Dragon Age and World of Warcraft at one point, and what one could learn from the other.
My point is that I think that World of Warcraft, with the various mods, is a great interface for an RPG on the computer. The easy movement, camera control, targeting flexibility etc. is spot on. These are things that Dragon Age did not quite capture. They came close, but then stopped short..and to me that actually made it seem worse. Dragon Age does not have: 1) Targeting and Auto Target functionality with the keyboard. You cannot click TAB and target the nearest opponent, or cycle through opponents. If you try to shoot Lightning without manually selecting a target, you need to click again. That's clunky. Why isn't there an option to auto select a target? How many recent RPGs, single or multiplayer do not contain some sort of auto-target functionality? 2) The Quest Target system could be a lot better. If the person I need to visit is in a house, I don't see the quest target marker. This happened more than a few times in Denerim. 3) The Codex and Journal are very clumsy. The Codex consists of a series of numbered icons under broad headings. How on earth is that user friendly? I am hoping that someone takes ALL the Codex items and puts them online, at least then I can read them properly. Mass Effect's codex wasn't perfect, but it was a whole lot better than what we have in Dragon Age. 4) No onscreen Quest Objective tracking. Its easy to miss when you have completed a quest objective. There is no onscreen mission objective tracker. You must keep checking your Journal. 5) No Target Portraits - You need to zoom out and rotate the camera to figure out which opponent you are targeting in larger battles. Why do they not have Target Portraits? These work hand in hand with keyboard targeting to improve the user's awareness. Yes I can pause the game and rotate the camera and try to figure things out...but in a flowing battle situation that becomes very clumsy and it feels like I am fighting the game AND the opponents, rather than just using the tools available to plan my strategy. 6) The UI cannot be Scaled - There is no slider to Scale the user interface elements for those with High Resolution, widescreen displays. 1920 and up. The text remains small, the interface elements remain small. These are short comings in the User Interface Design when compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, Runes of Magic, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Fable II , Borderlands all have better User Interfaces and present information to the player more efficiently than Dragon Age does. That does not say that Dragon Age is a bad game, far from it! It does several things very well.The story is good, I like the character interaction, the fact that there is a toolset is great...in my view the game is a MUST BUY for RPG aficionandos. And we know all the things it does well, we've all read the reviews if not played it ourselves. However there are flaws.It *feels* to me like a sort of Reskin of older games i've played before. And in some cases there's nothing wrong with that...but Interfaces have moved on, and if one is going to compare their recent game to others on the market with respect to UI...then there's some justifiable and constructive criticism that can be leveled.
Please watch your step there are now WoW hand rails for you to grasp onto for this ride. the height ...errr IQ requirement for this ride exceeds the requirement of your currently played mmo. Keep your hands inside and enjoy the ride
Please watch your step there are now WoW hand rails for you to grasp onto for this ride. the height ...errr IQ requirement for this ride exceeds the requirement of your currently played mmo. Keep your hands inside and enjoy the ride
It really has nothing to do with Smart people vs Stupid people.
It has to do with Good User Interface Design vs Mediocre or Bad UI design.
It has to do with making things easy for the user so that the UI becomes almost transparent and is something that the user does not even think about while they play, yet all the information they need is available to them with as little manual input as possible.
On the question of storytelling in MMOs vs single-player RPGs, the problem is that they are fundamentally different game experiences. When the RPG story is done, it's done ... you might have the option of cleaning up the side quests, but essentially you need to start over if you want to play more. An MMO is more like a simulation - stuff happens but the world keeps on turning. I would say that most MMOs actually try too hard to tell a fixed series of events when they should be trying to show off a living, ever-changing world.
Please watch your step there are now WoW hand rails for you to grasp onto for this ride. the height ...errr IQ requirement for this ride exceeds the requirement of your currently played mmo. Keep your hands inside and enjoy the ride
It really has nothing to do with Smart people vs Stupid people.
It has to do with Good User Interface Design vs Mediocre or Bad UI design.
It has to do with making things easy for the user so that the UI becomes almost transparent and is something that the user does not even think about while they play, yet all the information they need is available to them with as little manual input as possible.
The interface and UI is designed for this type of game. You cant put a wow interface on it its not a First Person game. This is more a RTSRPG at the party level. Its a NEW GENRE!
Done all the gaming from gemstone till now and dragon age is by far one of the best rpg's to date hands down. Between this title and "The Witcher" rpg gaming is coming back finally!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Comments
I'll toss this in once since it's come up.
Advertising and Editorial are handled 100% separately here. Literally, the people selling the ads are in Hawaii and the people doing the editorial are in Eastern Canada and the New York/New Jersey area. We have zero idea what's on the page as far as ads go beyond what we see visiting the site like the rest of you.
Clearly, Dragon Age is advertising here, but that had nothing to do with why we spoke to them.
Honestly, we made the decision some time ago to at least cover the game to some extent. The reasons are simple:
Frankly, glancing at our forums, I think Dragon Age may be the most discussed game on our site right now (independently of us). It shows there's an appetite for it.
All this said, covering single-player RPGs is the exception, not the rule. We will not list Dragon Age, and likely only cover RPGs by MMO developers. Take Torchlight, which we have also covered, since it's directly becoming an MMO. We will likely also have an article or three on Diablo III. At the same time, though, I doubt you'll see much, if any, Starcraft II coverage here.
So that's the line in the sand we've drawn and the logic we used, for those who want to know.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
I have to say that you touch upon a lot that I am thinking.
I also pick characters for story purposes.
For instance, and I'm sure I'm not really giving anything away here, there is a point where the husband of a paragon dwarf wants to come with you because you are going to look for her. Now, i could have just taken my usual party but it made more sense to take him, even though I found his character despicable (in a good way) and quite frankly I didn't need another damage dealer.
A good way through your journey, approaching the end point, bioware gives you another chance to change out the character. My initialy thought is "ok, I suppose someone might want to mix it up for a variety fo reasons, but I have been in these tunnels with this group looking for this person and changing it now, even though I want to, would not make sense storywise.
I put together parties based upon what I think makes sense to the over all story and to my character. At one point, even though I didn't need morrigan as I had the mage from the tower (great healer) I decided that the party felt too bland and needed the extra spice that morrigan brought. Yes, it's a familare taste but going forward the party needed a bit something else to flesh out the experience as the current party I had were all the same flavor.
And though I did play Baldur's gate, the sequel to a point (I had to stop as I couldn't get into it) and both neverwinter nights games (the secone one I also had to stop as it kept having lulls for me that I just coulnd't get through) Dragon age speaks to me a bit more and feels more compelling. I have been playing it in my spare time and I have not wanted to stop. As I said to my apartment mate, I felt like playing it all night and NOT going to my girlfriend's place (of course I went, real life has far more over games to my thinking) and I haven't felt like that in a game for a long time.
And I think you also hit it on the head regarding Oblivion (or even morrowind). I love those games and have played the heck out of them. I still play Oblvion. But with all the strengths that both games have, sometimes the free roaming takes a bit out of the momentum.
Sure, bioware games are very consciously theaterical stages where you are a part of a forward moving story. Sure you can do the sub quests but you are in a very defined space. We are not just going to explore for the sake of exploring a world because it's just not there. In some ways that is a shame.
However, what we do get is a more pointed story and greater sense of urgency for those who can buy into the experience.
As for the above regarding buying the whole game as opposed to nickle and diming, I can appreciate the sentiment but I think it's just a marketing tool to prepare customers for the 2 years of content that bioware will be bringing down the pike.
We have purchased the whole game. But bioware has set up a sytem where that game will be added to. It is in a sense their advertisement for a service that interested players can take advantage of if they so desire.
And quite frankly I'm in. I enjoy adding to games that I really want to play.
Heck, I really would like another Oblivion pack. I go out of my way to download the player stories because I want to continue the journey of my character.
And as I never have a problem paying for my entertainment provided I am getting good value, I will purchase the expansions or additional adventures if it means that I can enjoy my character and this world for a bit more.
mmo's do this and they don't have nearly as much story narrative as single player games. Something that I've been thinking about a lot since oblivion and Dragon Age.
Mmo's allow me to be with my character for years. And to a point they provide a rich game world to explore (hopefully). However, I have more sense of story in single player games which unforunatley end way too soon for my tastes.
I can be engrossed in a world without seeing players shooting the shit in chat, dancing on tables or in the cities or jumping up and down in my face while I'm trying to do something. it's those reasons where mmo's fail for me.
I want to be engrossed in story with a charcter that I nurture. MMo's allow me to nurture that character but it takes more for me to become immersed in the stories because other players are running through content (DDO) or too busy using the mmo as a social tool than a story based game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Need to change the site from MMORPG.com to RANDOMRPG.com.
Overhyped? Hardly. And comparing it to WoW is a stretch as well. I haven't even leaped on WoW since the game released and sure as heck haven't touched Aion neither. But then again I know some of you from your posts and you usually have nothing but negative things to say anyway. Jessica Biel could strip in front of you naked and you would still find something wrong. So to each their own.
I am loving the game and many things Mike states in the article are dead on. MMO's are missing some of those elements especially the feeling that we actually have an impact on the world around us. I see many MMO gamers complain about such. Story is iffy with some folks but I for one love a good story. It helps bring you into the game and create immersion. Now some don't seek that and that's understandable but I think a stronger number actually do. The story in DAO is anything but the usual. Since when is it usual that the elves are treated with disdain and servants? Usually they are looked upon in a higher light as if they are the betters among the races.
Characterization is same ol'? How? You could always make a mage that can wear plate? One that has the ability to be an Arcane Warrior using their magic to be a warrior on the field? For dealing with a genre and industry that is littered with fantasy games and various classes you have a limit on what you can do to totally be original and out of the box. They did a rather good job at it in my opinion.
At this point Bioware may be on a roll with this game then Mass Effect due in January of 2010 and then Knights of the Old Republic due somewhere from next year to 2011. So I give them their props....they are definitely earning it...and my money it seems.
Anyone who baselines against WoW is clueless, especiallly considering Bioware and their excellence existed long before wow.
The depth within the DA game is exceptional... as far as MMOs go just watch Bioware take the market with their MMO development....
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Yes and no. If we were all in an office together, we'd pick things up is my point.
The general point is: the editorial team never discusses ads with the advertising team. Period.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
The first major release of Bioware under EA's banner is, in my opinion, a disappointment.
Trying to hit me up for premium content the moment it's installed is a slap in the face. So, EA it isn't enough I just plopped down $50 for this game you want more money already? Bad enough Mass Effect is charging $5 for the new patch, at least that game is over a year old. Really ruins the immersion when PREMIUM CONTENT is in big letters on my quest journal AND there is an npc in the party camp reminding me that I didn't buy it yet.
Game is rather buggy. Forums are alight with numerous posts about choppy gameplay, load times taking several minutes and downloaded content not being downloaded. I can run Mass Effect, Age of Conan, Prototype and Batman Arkham Asylum on max settings with no issues, yet running DA on minimum settings I get load times up to 15 mins and framerate measured in the low single digits. That is inexcuseable QA. Think about this, game came out tuesday and friday there was already a patch out for it.
I've already cancelled my ME2 preorder. If they can't get this game working after 5 years of development, how good can ME2 be with less than 2?
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Yes and no. If we were all in an office together, we'd pick things up is my point.
The general point is: the editorial team never discusses ads with the advertising team. Period.
Perhaps some interdepartmental communication would do you guys some good then. Question, do the writers LOOK at the site? You do know the ads for Dragon Age were up far in advance of the article right?
Do you guys not run the articles by Craig and Ben? How much input do they have on what you guys write about? Just curious.
Did they not know that might come across looking like more paid advertising?
How important is it for mmorpg.com to have the appearance of journalistic integrity? I'm not mocking here, I'm being serious, because if appearing to have journalistic integrity is important on this site, I have to say you're failing.
[quote]The writers looked at things like the idea of using or abusing power and racism among the elves, dwarves, and humans. They wanted tough issues that never really got to this depth in previous fantasy titles[/quote]
i don't know if it has already been said (don't have the time to read through all the replies) but dragon age is not the first attempt at introducing mature content in the fantasy genre. surely devs made an excellent work, but when it come to tough issues, the witcher imho got it better. in any case, i always appreciate this sort of attempts
...almost nothing good ever comes out of korea, besides hordes of big boobed lolitas they never had and never will have...
Retired from: UO, DAoC, WoW.
Loved 'till their death: Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa
Playing now: Fallen Earth
Waiting for: Earthrise, Mortal Online
I don't care (ty adblock/flashblock) but just as an FYI, in the internet age, the above statement has absolutely no bearing on the the point in question that is being responded to.
Yes and no. If we were all in an office together, we'd pick things up is my point.
The general point is: the editorial team never discusses ads with the advertising team. Period.
Perhaps some interdepartmental communication would do you guys some good then. Question, do the writers LOOK at the site? You do know the ads for Dragon Age were up far in advance of the article right?
Do you guys not run the articles by Craig and Ben? How much input do they have on what you guys write about? Just curious.
Did they not know that might come across looking like more paid advertising?
How important is it for mmorpg.com to have the appearance of journalistic integrity? I'm not mocking here, I'm being serious, because if appearing to have journalistic integrity is important on this site, I have to say you're failing.
I'm not saying we don't talk ever, I'm saying we never discuss advertising.
Obviously, we can see the ads on the site, but we have covered this game well in advance of launch, well before the ads.
Craig/Ben run the site, but generally leave the editorial alone. They never request we cover specific games (so as not to let ads influence things). Their involvement is more on the "we want to add feature X to the site" side of things (like blogs), or asking for more/less of certain kinds of articles (like say reviews in general). Nothing to do with specific titles.
The fact is, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, people demand we only show advertising for MMOs or related titles. So we do. You don't see car banners, Phoenix University, and Orbitz as a matter of general policy, which Craig has posted here several times.
Yet on the other hand, people get mad when there is editorial on games that do have ads. If we never wrote about games that have ads on our site, there would be no content. Period. I cannot think of a single major MMO launch that I don't remember seeing an ad for on the site. Should we stop covering Aion and Warhammer too?
To me, it's no different than CNN reporting on Obama and McCain during the election, yet still running campaign ads. It's the cost of doing business and why we're very careful to keep the two streams separate.
There is no way to prove this, but I can say I've never once seen an ad on the site and gone out to cover the game because of it. We have also never been asked to post something on someone because they were going to advertise or as part of any financial deal.
I will say now, we plan to do about the same amount of coverage as we did on Dragon Age on Diablo III and Mass Effect II for exactly the same reasons we covered Dragon Age (see first post I made). If one or both advertises, good for them. If they don't, that's fine too. The decision long predates that.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
I want to say one word: Broodmother.
Seriously, that was the most intense fight I had in years. We need more fights like that in games in general. (I loved that my main character, the tank, got the last blow. Glorious death!)
BOOYAKA!
I love that game even if enough times i curse Mike (Sorry Mike) who spawns 14 skels just in front of me (the ghost little boy in the dungeon) just because he wants to push me to the limits, it may also be my fault since i chose to auto level most of my party chars, but anyway after i finish a battle i always say that most unsuccessful attempts were my fault.
I would like to add that mmorpgs should give the player more options to decide if he wants to do battle or not and his decisions should affect his alignment a lot with rewards and penalties as in P&P rpgs, also playing a hard game is not a big deal since in mmos there are many players who manage to reach the cap in couple of weeks.
Also i would like to ask if Bioware is planning to add a custom formation feature to DA like baldur's gate did since imo the lack of it makes the game more difficult than it should be.
Why are you posting here?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It's the wrong decision. This is supposed to be an MMO site. Those games you mentioned don't fit that category.
It's as simple as that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Why are you posting here?
I sort of see his point. As I said above, it seems that mmo's are about being social portals where players can chat and experience some game play. Even in DDO where the quests really are about quests and less about killing x of y, you see players ramming through the content. Some of that (most?) is the fault of the game design where running quests is the way you level.
I'm sure we all can agree that for the most part, once we've experienced quest dialoge and story points for a few times, it becomes more about clicking through it. Sort of a "yeah, yeah, I read this several times before 'got it'"
If their new Star Wars game is successful I can easily see more mmo's going this route for the simple reason that it brings back the story and gameplay of role playing games.
I can't see mmo's continuing for years with the current system. Not that it's horrible but the current system seems to be about something else.
I love leveling and adding skills and upgrading my characters. But I noticed that I rarely if ever looked at the xp bar in Dragon Age. Or heck, even Oblivion.
I think if a game company were to put out an mmo that catered more toward story at the expense of the whole open world concept where everyone is just running around doing whatever (dancing, calling people noobs, discussing sports, dueling in the warehouse ares, etc) I would probably be more prone to gravitate toward those games.
I'm not sure everyone would but those people who really want to be steeped in story and where their character falls within that story might also do the same.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, you can certainly just not play the game, but if you play an MMO, your argument holds no water.
Expansion packs and content are added to games continuously. Are you still playing any MMO with the original content? Why is that different? Just because the ad comes from one npc, rather than gate appearing in a zone, or people returning with gear you can never have unless you buy it?
I don't see what sense your argument makes if you play an MMO. You're being milked there worse than anywhere, because to be competitive or to even have others to play with, you generally are almost forced into buying it.
There's absolutely 0 need for you to buy the DLC in Dragon Age. The whole game can be played without it.
But then again, nothings stopping you from simply not playing. It is, of course, your perogative.
You know I wonder if anyone actually understood the point I was making.
The interview focused on the similarities between Dragon Age and World of Warcraft at one point, and what one could learn from the other.
My point is that I think that World of Warcraft, with the various mods, is a great interface for an RPG on the computer. The easy movement, camera control, targeting flexibility etc. is spot on.
These are things that Dragon Age did not quite capture. They came close, but then stopped short..and to me that actually made it seem worse.
Dragon Age does not have:
1) Targeting and Auto Target functionality with the keyboard. You cannot click TAB and target the nearest opponent, or cycle through opponents. If you try to shoot Lightning without manually selecting a target, you need to click again. That's clunky. Why isn't there an option to auto select a target? How many recent RPGs, single or multiplayer do not contain some sort of auto-target functionality?
2) The Quest Target system could be a lot better. If the person I need to visit is in a house, I don't see the quest target marker. This happened more than a few times in Denerim.
3) The Codex and Journal are very clumsy. The Codex consists of a series of numbered icons under broad headings. How on earth is that user friendly? I am hoping that someone takes ALL the Codex items and puts them online, at least then I can read them properly. Mass Effect's codex wasn't perfect, but it was a whole lot better than what we have in Dragon Age.
4) No onscreen Quest Objective tracking. Its easy to miss when you have completed a quest objective. There is no onscreen mission objective tracker. You must keep checking your Journal.
5) No Target Portraits - You need to zoom out and rotate the camera to figure out which opponent you are targeting in larger battles. Why do they not have Target Portraits? These work hand in hand with keyboard targeting to improve the user's awareness. Yes I can pause the game and rotate the camera and try to figure things out...but in a flowing battle situation that becomes very clumsy and it feels like I am fighting the game AND the opponents, rather than just using the tools available to plan my strategy.
6) The UI cannot be Scaled - There is no slider to Scale the user interface elements for those with High Resolution, widescreen displays. 1920 and up. The text remains small, the interface elements remain small.
These are short comings in the User Interface Design when compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, Runes of Magic, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Fable II , Borderlands all have better User Interfaces and present information to the player more efficiently than Dragon Age does.
That does not say that Dragon Age is a bad game, far from it! It does several things very well.The story is good, I like the character interaction, the fact that there is a toolset is great...in my view the game is a MUST BUY for RPG aficionandos. And we know all the things it does well, we've all read the reviews if not played it ourselves.
However there are flaws.It *feels* to me like a sort of Reskin of older games i've played before. And in some cases there's nothing wrong with that...but Interfaces have moved on, and if one is going to compare their recent game to others on the market with respect to UI...then there's some justifiable and constructive criticism that can be leveled.
Please watch your step there are now WoW hand rails for you to grasp onto for this ride. the height ...errr IQ requirement for this ride exceeds the requirement of your currently played mmo. Keep your hands inside and enjoy the ride
It really has nothing to do with Smart people vs Stupid people.
It has to do with Good User Interface Design vs Mediocre or Bad UI design.
It has to do with making things easy for the user so that the UI becomes almost transparent and is something that the user does not even think about while they play, yet all the information they need is available to them with as little manual input as possible.
On the question of storytelling in MMOs vs single-player RPGs, the problem is that they are fundamentally different game experiences. When the RPG story is done, it's done ... you might have the option of cleaning up the side quests, but essentially you need to start over if you want to play more. An MMO is more like a simulation - stuff happens but the world keeps on turning. I would say that most MMOs actually try too hard to tell a fixed series of events when they should be trying to show off a living, ever-changing world.
It really has nothing to do with Smart people vs Stupid people.
It has to do with Good User Interface Design vs Mediocre or Bad UI design.
It has to do with making things easy for the user so that the UI becomes almost transparent and is something that the user does not even think about while they play, yet all the information they need is available to them with as little manual input as possible.
The interface and UI is designed for this type of game. You cant put a wow interface on it its not a First Person game. This is more a RTSRPG at the party level. Its a NEW GENRE!
Maybe you should get the name of the writer of Bioware right it s not David Gator but David Gaider
I'm loving this game. Maybe not the best RPG ever, but the best in a long time.
For fantasy lovers like me we've had, what:
Gothic 3? LOL, glitch city.
Dawn of Magic. Blech
Spellforce. Ick
Risen. Meh, not too bad, but still clunky.
Time of Shadows. Sucked.
Drakensang. Medicore and buggy.
Legend - Hand of God. Nope.
Two Worlds. No thanks.
Last Remnant. Kicked ass, until the combat got so boring I wanted to eat my own eyes with a wooden spoon.
Done all the gaming from gemstone till now and dragon age is by far one of the best rpg's to date hands down. Between this title and "The Witcher" rpg gaming is coming back finally!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"