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FFA PvP & Full Loot PvP: Something to Consider
nate1980
Member UncommonPosts: 2,074
You're walking/driving down the street, wearing a new pair of shoes and a nice outfit, heading over to your girlfriends house to take her out on a date. Some thug out of no where sucker punches you, beats you down, and then takes your shoes, your clothes, and your money. Do you get mad? Would you call the police? What would you do? If this happened every 5 minutes, would you move to another city?
That's putting PvP into a real life context that people can understand, because that's what it is. If you can understand the anger and fustration in the above scenario, then you can understand why a person wouldn't want to play a game with FFA PvP w/ full loot. I know none of these pro-FFA Full Loot PvPers would like to live in a world where you get your shit stolen from you every 5 min. Why people would want to live that life in a game is beyond me.
Now a game that is a simulation of real life in regards to crime and war is more interesting. There's serious consequences for commiting a crime, but you're free to do so, yet most people don't due to those consequences. A developer wouldn't dare create a game with consequences akin to what you'd find in real life, so I don't think FFA PvP works, which is why it has such a small following. Add real consequences, such as permadeath, blacklisting, criminal status, and real-time jail sentences, then FFA PvP might work and would actually be interesting.
Comments
You cannot recreate "consequences" of real life actions in a computer game.
In a game you can just quit and log back in later, or just quit period.
Also, in a game, jail doesn't suck as bad as it does in real life. In a game, you just go watch TV, go to a movie, go on a date, while your character can't do anything. Who cares? Log back in next week and gank a noob, rinse repeat.
IN real life, being in jail sucks.
That's why "consequences" dont' work in video games. The only "consequences" that really mean anything would cause people to quit the game and play something else, which defeats the purpose of "consequences".
Why wouldnt it work? There's a segment of the mmorpg player population that play such games, and can handle it. That segment of the population is not big, but its there?
You obviously cant play it, therefore dont buy such a game.....I dont see what there is to consider? Also comparing a game with real life robbery - you people are delusional -
Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life. If you doubt this, just look at the number of pets, houses, and miscelaeous things in a game that is there to make the world a more believable place to spend you time.
So it's not delusional and I wonder if you even know what that means. People have emotional connections to their character. Not as strong as themselves in real life, because we don't literally feel the pain our characters do, but they're there. This is everyone is able to tolerate dying in a game at all.
Getting ganked over and over again, and being continously robbed by online thugs is not natural or tolerable for most people. I guess it's not the players fault, since certain games allow it, but I'm well within my rights to say that such games have more in common with Counter Strike than a real RPG and such players don't belong in RPGs, they belong in FPS games.
As it was already said: We are still talking about games! The scenario you are describing reminds me of the medieval. A Full Loot System was "implemented" in the medieval, but turned out to be no good
But why the discussion? You WoW/War/LotRO-Loot-System-loving-people have so many games to choose from, so just leave the few games out there with Full Loot to us. There's no point in trying to convince you about the benefits of a Full Loot System as you certainly won't understand them (just like I do not understand what people get out of other games).
You're in a war in real life? Where do you live and why haven't you moved?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Back in EQ my character got thrown in the jail by the GMs. And I didn't even log out...just sat there staring at my screen and talking to guildmates...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life. If you doubt this, just look at the number of pets, houses, and miscelaeous things in a game that is there to make the world a more believable place to spend you time.
So it's not delusional and I wonder if you even know what that means. People have emotional connections to their character. Not as strong as themselves in real life, because we don't literally feel the pain our characters do, but they're there. This is everyone is able to tolerate dying in a game at all.
Getting ganked over and over again, and being continously robbed by online thugs is not natural or tolerable for most people. I guess it's not the players fault, since certain games allow it, but I'm well within my rights to say that such games have more in common with Counter Strike than a real RPG and such players don't belong in RPGs, they belong in FPS games.
Dont play it and quit whining
Well said.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You CAN create the same consequences, it's just unwise monetarily to do so. You can add permadeath into a game. You can add jail time, that's actually served only by being online breaking big rocks into little rocks. You can enforce fines for breaking minor laws. These are things you CAN do, but developers probably never will and why would they? People who these consequences would effect wouldn't play such a game, thus making them a waste of coding in the first place.
Which brings us to the conclusion that FFA PvP do not belong in role-playing games. They belong in FPS's. It's definitely a controversial subject with very strong opinions on both sides, but ask yourself what a RPG stands for and what it really means. Look at the best examples of RPG's in the RPG genre. The only way to make ffa pvp workable in a RPG and it still be believable is to add severe consequences. Death in a game is the worst thing that can happen to a person in the game, just as it's the worst thing that could happen to a person in real life. Well, there's torture and betrayal by someone you love I suppose. But anyways, the ability to inflict the worse thing on a person whenever you want needs to be balanced with a deterrent that's just as bad.
Don't get me wrong, I like PvP. My first MMO was DAoC. PvP makes perfect sense in some games and a game isn't really complete without it. But being able to attack anyone, anywhere, without any consequences doesn't make any sense. Whereas being able to attack your enemy on the battlefield makes perfect sense.
People who like FFA PvP and full loot aren't going out on dates=) They're might be stalking people, but if the girl doesn't know you're on the date, its not a date. j/k
I only say this because the one guy I know in real life that enjoys that sort of thing isn't a people person, which is probably why he enjoys FFA PvP and full looting=)
Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life....
Absolutely not true, look at the ratio between non RP and RP servers in most games, and even in the most RPer games look at the ratio of RP and not RP guilds. I would like to think it is but is not natural for many people to want to play their characters as a second life
I guess I forgot where I was starting a discussion. I should have known people wouldn't respond with well articulated and intelligent posts. So to debunk some assumptions:
Myth 1: OP plays WoW or some other themepark game. Wrong, I don't play any MMORPG's at all, because they're all crap. However, my favorite was DAoC and SWG, both in their earlier days.
Myth 2: OP has not, or will not play a FFA PvP game. I've played Shadowbane and was really looking forward to Darkfall. Now I'm looking forward to Mortal Online. The problem with MMORPG's with FFA PvP in it is that the community completely ignores the rest of the game. They don't care about the lore, the dungeons, or anything like that. They don't use city building, resource controlling, and politics to their full potential. They just turn the game into a gank the noob and thug wars game.
So it's not about me not liking FFA PvP, it's about how unbalanced and unbelievable the system is in its current form. Consequences put RPG into FFA PvP. With them, the game is more akin to an FPS game with swords and turn-based combat.
You CAN create the same consequences, it's just unwise monetarily to do so. You can add permadeath into a game. You can add jail time, that's actually served only by being online breaking big rocks into little rocks. You can enforce fines for breaking minor laws. These are things you CAN do, but developers probably never will and why would they? People who these consequences would effect wouldn't play such a game, thus making them a waste of coding in the first place.
That's what I said.
Any consequences you create in a video game that are actually meaningful would cause players to quit.
The whole idea of "consequences'" is that they suck, and people don't want to play a game that sucks.
If the "consequences" are fun, then they don't deter anything.
So you CAN'T create the same "consequences" in a video game that exist in real life, because consequences in real life suck, and people don't play games that suck.
Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life....
Absolutely not true, look at the ratio between non RP and RP servers in most games, and even in the most RPer games look at the ratio of RP and not RP guilds. I would like to think it is but is not natural for many people to want to play their characters as a second life
I didn't mean "play your characters," as in roleplaying. I meant that a person playing a Warrior will do what Warriors do and etc. It's not default mode to play RPG's literally "in character," that's role-play. RPG's is about playing a role, as the name suggests. The roles are laid out for you, and the tools and content is there to help you play your role better. In FFA PvP games, people are rolling whatever class/skillset and playing as thugs, gangsters, and totally ignoring the politics built into the game, how their role is explained in game, and the OTHER things there is to do in the game other than murder everyone that walks by.
Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life....
Absolutely not true, look at the ratio between non RP and RP servers in most games, and even in the most RPer games look at the ratio of RP and not RP guilds. I would like to think it is but is not natural for many people to want to play their characters as a second life
I didn't mean "play your characters," as in roleplaying. I meant that a person playing a Warrior will do what Warriors do and etc. It's not default mode to play RPG's literally "in character," that's role-play. RPG's is about playing a role, as the name suggests. The roles are laid out for you, and the tools and content is there to help you play your role better. In FFA PvP games, people are rolling whatever class/skillset and playing as thugs, gangsters, and totally ignoring the politics built into the game, how their role is explained in game, and the OTHER things there is to do in the game other than murder everyone that walks by.
I think you are confused about RPGs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_role-playing_game
Table top games like Dungeons and Dragons are about playing a character.
computer RPGs are NOT about "playing a role" like you define it. YOU may do that in games, but that is NOT the definition of a CRPG.
The defining characteristic of a CRPG is progression and character stats. Your character stats progress, not your real life twitch skills.
NOthing to do with "playing a warrior" it's about the warrior's stats going up.
"I know none of these pro-FFA Full Loot PvPers would like to live in a world where you get your shit stolen from you every 5 min. Why people would want to live that life in a game is beyond me."
Can you explain what game this is happening to you in? In on the Fel side of UO I haven't been robbed anything more than once a month, if that often. I really would like to know what MMOs you are playing that you are getting your ass handed to you every 5 minute?
Or is that a false assumption stated as fact in order to reinforce your point? Naww... you wouldn't do such a thing, would you? Which brings us to....
"Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life."
1) What you want RPG to mean and what it does mean are two different things
2) roleplaying in an RPG is the extreme minority
"Getting ganked over and over again, and being continously robbed by online thugs is not natural or tolerable for most people. I guess it's not the players fault, since certain games allow it, but I'm well within my rights to say that such games have more in common with Counter Strike than a real RPG and such players don't belong in RPGs, they belong in FPS games."
A 'real RPG. I think your confusion is that you probably grew up with CRPGs, which are predominantly single-player. All other forms of roleplaying - PnP, LARPing, MUDs, etc - that offer PVP have been predominantly FFA PVP. You can rob another adventurer in your DnD campaign. You can kill, maim or attack others on your team in most LARP events, if there even are teams to begin with.
"Which brings us to the conclusion that FFA PvP do not belong in role-playing games."
It's brings YOU to that conclusion, not US. And there is nothing wrong with that, Nate. YOU don't like it. It doesn't go with what YOU want or expect based on YOUR personal view of what anMMO should be. No one can argue that as you are entitled to your opinion. It's rather arrogant (and completely false) to state, though, that FFA PVP does not belong in roleplaying games.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Pretty sure there are at least 4 MMORPGs out there with Full Loot and FFA PvP. Lets see, there's Darkfall, Ultima Online, Shadowbane, and Mortal Online is almost released. Age of Conan is FFA, and you can drop loot if you are a murderer.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I for one cannot stand PVP in a RPG but ,it is not the PVP nor is it the loot,it is the FFA that makes zero sense.Why on earth would you create a RPG then utilize what is in essence a First person shooter setup witch is FFA pvp.Like i said it makes no sense what so ever,if you want to play FFA PVP go play a first person shooter ,they have better maps designed for it,they have weapons that cater to every scenario and best of all the PVP is fair,it relies only on skills and of course latency witch is the only unfair part.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Ok you know if you put your hand in the fire its going to get burned and will hurt. For some reason you go ahead and put your hand in anyways then turn around and complain "WHAT THE HELL MY HAND GOT BURNED WHATS GOING ON HERE?"
Sound stupid ?
Well thats basically the same as choosing to play a game that has FFA pvp/lootable and then complaining about it.
Lineage 2, EVE Online, Puzzle Pirates, Runescape...
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
It is a completely accurate, intelligent, correct example for such a topic.
Don't get your panties in a bunch just because he used real logic to show how irrational your gameplay is.
Just take it like a man, admit your type of gameplay is kindof "kinky" and live with it.
The majority of humanity doesn't want FFA PvP & Full Loot without consequences- solely because of the OP's example of real life robbery. It's the same thing. The only difference is that IRL, you aren't sure if you'll be harmed or not. If it was the same robber every time and you knew you wouldn't get hurt as long as you give your stuff to him, then it would be THE EXACT SAME.
You work in game for items and equipment. Someone steals those items and equipment. You were robbed of something.
You work in real life for items and equipment. Someone steals those items and equipment. You were robbed of something.
No one wants to be robbed constantly and lose hours of work because some group of 13 year olds thought it would be a good idea to gank the next passerby.
CMN
Really, that's all that needs to be said. Should I make a post about how living in a world where if someone you are supposedly at war with walks by you you have to ask them if they want to fight?
Don't play FFA if you don't like/can't handle it. It's that simple.
The Official God FAQ
It is a completely accurate, intelligent, correct example for such a topic.
Don't get your panties in a bunch just because he used real logic to show how irrational your gameplay is.
Just take it like a man, admit your type of gameplay is kindof "kinky" and live with it.
You have issues lol
You do know that MMos do not, as a rule, present a society, culture and environment that closely corresponds to western suburbia, right? In other words, you can no more make moral or cultural judgements based on your own life about, say, Darkfall than you can about 15th century Japan, where a Samurai was legally quite entitled to cut down a peasant for simply being in his way, or even just handy because he wanted to test out his new sword. Or Bronze age Greece, where rape was perfectly acceptable, and where warfare was indistinguishable from piracy. Or the Europe of the Celts. Or the Scandinavia of the Vikings. War, rape, pillage, torture, slavery, murder, every kind of savage brutality was perfectly normal. Read Conan for God's sake. Read the collection and count up the number of murders, thefts, rapes, tortures, assassinations, betrayals and cruelties. Would I want to live in Hyboria? Hell no! But it sure is fun to read about it.
If you want to play an MMO where everyone leads a nice, safe law abiding life working a steady job and going to temple on Wodensdays then go for it, Most of us demand a little more excitement than that because that's what our real lives are like and we want something different from a game. You see, we can tell the difference. You apparently can't. In all seriousness, I advise you to step away from MMOs for a while and re-connect with real life a little better.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Most MMO's are RPG's. So it's natural for many people to want to play "as" their character when they're in the game, sorta like living a second life....
Absolutely not true, look at the ratio between non RP and RP servers in most games, and even in the most RPer games look at the ratio of RP and not RP guilds. I would like to think it is but is not natural for many people to want to play their characters as a second life
I didn't mean "play your characters," as in roleplaying. I meant that a person playing a Warrior will do what Warriors do and etc. It's not default mode to play RPG's literally "in character," that's role-play. RPG's is about playing a role, as the name suggests. The roles are laid out for you, and the tools and content is there to help you play your role better. In FFA PvP games, people are rolling whatever class/skillset and playing as thugs, gangsters, and totally ignoring the politics built into the game, how their role is explained in game, and the OTHER things there is to do in the game other than murder everyone that walks by.
I think you are confused about RPGs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_role-playing_game
Table top games like Dungeons and Dragons are about playing a character.
computer RPGs are NOT about "playing a role" like you define it. YOU may do that in games, but that is NOT the definition of a CRPG.
The defining characteristic of a CRPG is progression and character stats. Your character stats progress, not your real life twitch skills.
NOthing to do with "playing a warrior" it's about the warrior's stats going up.
I am not confused about RPG's and linking wikipedia, which is well known as NOT being a reputable source in colleges, is not helping your case. Anyone and everyone can post whatever they want on that website. I also checked the references for the information written on the page you linked. The information came from FREE online dictionary's, which is not a reputable source, and from an article posted on a gaming website, written not by some notable and well respected writer, but by some nobody. The point I'm making here is that you're using opinions as your source, which are no more valid than my own opinions. My opinions of what RPG's are and should be are based on their origins, which in my eyes hold more weight than some recent formulation of a sub genre, which is defined by a bunch of nobody's.
None of that really matters though, does it? Because in the end, games are available to anyone with the money to buy them, and how that game is defined largely is up to the community. This is why a game like Darkfall, for instance, with all the lore and features it has, has been reduced to Counter-Strike with knives as many reviewers have commented.