I'm thankful I will never have to worry about trying to acquire that gear. All the tier sets past tier 2 have looked horrible imo. I mean with few exceptions These new ones look pretty bad to me (except the warrior one).
That game "fix" as you would call it, is the reason WOW is still number one after all those years. Just a few "examples" of those game fixes lateley: leveling through PvP, dual specs, in game gear changer, scaled difficulty in raids, Azeroth overhauled, .... And now in the newer adds: auto loading of PUG group members, cross server LFG tool, GUILD leveling through Pve/Pvp... If WOW 2010 was still Vanilla WOW, the game would have had 300K subscriptions by now. I like game fixes )), it is called patches and expansions.
The reason WOW is still number one is that like yourself wow players are just too easy to please.....with every little bone blizzard throws at them they happily wag their tail.
Among the above things you mentioned there isnt any new content. But the most typical is that you perceive a really typical and simple means of cost rationalisation which is the scaled difficulty in raids as something great....
Instead of giving their player base diversity in the form of several dungeons with different difficulty level, lazy blizzard serves them just one which can be scaled to serve every player. Saves them a lot of manpower ($$$), and the best thing is, the typical wow player is happily being tricked. Gratz Blizz on that trick. What comes next? 1 single duneon that you can scale in entry level and 10 difficulty levels?
You just sound jealous to me. Either jealous that someone is having a good time playing WoW, or that your game isn't doing as well as WoW.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I'm thankful I will never have to worry about trying to acquire that gear. All the tier sets past tier 2 have looked horrible imo. I mean with few exceptions These new ones look pretty bad to me (except the warrior one).
Face it, Warlock one looks really nice
Hated it. It looks like a tier 2 Paladin to me. Which is a cool look, but it's a caster.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
There has already been ample reply to #1. I'll add to it that ToC was not added alone, but instead was added with the tournament grounds that include various quests. There was also a "building" event to help establish the tournament (akin to the AQ war effort for example). So, as stated earlier, quality is subjective and an endless argument that noone can win. Quantity, well, WotLK has one less raid when 3.3 hits. Not a huge variation in my opinion. As to the second point, PvP servers, by definition, have open world pvp. It can happen anywhere and at any time. PvE servers have a different rule set to accomodate players who don't want spontaneous PvP. So it seems there is no argument here as there is a ruleset that accomodates exactly what you are talking about. Is your complaint that WG provides an external motivation for players to gather together and fight it out? I'm not really sure how that is a bad thing on a PvE or PvP server. I mean, random skirmishes are fun and all, but fighting for a continent wide buff and access to a raid instance are nice perks.
Alone or not, the *instance* itself could hardly be deemed true 'raid content'. Don't bundle it with quests and other events, those get listed and classified in their respective categories. And by referencing the AQ event, I trust you were around during that time. Being around during that time, it's somewhat surprising that you would choose to compare the two. Quality isn't subjective here. That's a cop-out. There are too many, obvious, corners cut. Half the raids are either rehashed zones or quick, 1 boss zergs. Ony was a 1 boss zone, but hardly a zerg. Gruul, Mag were small-scale zones, but also hardly zergs. Only EoE isn't a zerg here, VoA absolutely is.
You paint a perfect PvP server picture. Flying mounts, a dead landscape from 1-79 followed with 80s hanging out in daily quest hubs hardly quantifies as 'any place'. It's predictable, or so scarce it's not worth mentioning. Either you have an abundance of locations that you can farm your PvP kills at, or you have none. A small smattering of quest hub locations makes it all too common to know where to go. This is compartmentalized. It's not spontaneous. Again, assuming you were around during the AQ days, you can't seriously stand here and claim that 'world pvp' is alive and well in present-day WoW.
For a PvE server, WG works. It's a positive concept that implements according to intent. It's a zone where PvP is always at play. While it's compartmentalized, I can see the benefit of introducing the concept where it has otherwise been absent for the past 4 years on these servers. Regardless of time, there is somewhere I can go where I know people will be found who are flagged. While the location is all too predictable, the timing could be very much dynamic. The novelty isn't the lame attempt at world pvp here, it's introducing a 'mandated' PvP zone in an otherwise PvP docile world.
PvP server, come on, I know you've at least played on one. It's a zergfest every 2hrs30, then dead with 1-2 farmers. This isn't world PvP, it's a 'world queued instance'. In to get my checklist done for the day/week, then done with it.
Continent wide buff for increased xp or dmg done? I quit for the final time when ToC came out, remind me what the buff does. What does this do, legitimately, for 80s? You know, the people who are allowed inside the zone? Nothing. While I want to give credit for 'access to' a raid instance... that instance is 10min and done, all PUGs. The perks are dismal.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Alone or not, the *instance* itself could hardly be deemed true 'raid content'. Don't bundle it with quests and other events, those get listed and classified in their respective categories. And by referencing the AQ event, I trust you were around during that time. Being around during that time, it's somewhat surprising that you would choose to compare the two. Quality isn't subjective here. That's a cop-out. There are too many, obvious, corners cut. Half the raids are either rehashed zones or quick, 1 boss zergs. Ony was a 1 boss zone, but hardly a zerg. Gruul, Mag were small-scale zones, but also hardly zergs. Only EoE isn't a zerg here, VoA absolutely is. You paint a perfect PvP server picture. Flying mounts, a dead landscape from 1-79 followed with 80s hanging out in daily quest hubs hardly quantifies as 'any place'. It's predictable, or so scarce it's not worth mentioning. Either you have an abundance of locations that you can farm your PvP kills at, or you have none. A small smattering of quest hub locations makes it all too common to know where to go. This is compartmentalized. It's not spontaneous. Again, assuming you were around during the AQ days, you can't seriously stand here and claim that 'world pvp' is alive and well in present-day WoW. For a PvE server, WG works. It's a positive concept that implements according to intent. It's a zone where PvP is always at play. While it's compartmentalized, I can see the benefit of introducing the concept where it has otherwise been absent for the past 4 years on these servers. Regardless of time, there is somewhere I can go where I know people will be found who are flagged. While the location is all too predictable, the timing could be very much dynamic. The novelty isn't the lame attempt at world pvp here, it's introducing a 'mandated' PvP zone in an otherwise PvP docile world. PvP server, come on, I know you've at least played on one. It's a zergfest every 2hrs30, then dead with 1-2 farmers. This isn't world PvP, it's a 'world queued instance'. In to get my checklist done for the day/week, then done with it. Continent wide buff for increased xp or dmg done? I quit for the final time when ToC came out, remind me what the buff does. What does this do, legitimately, for 80s? You know, the people who are allowed inside the zone? Nothing. While I want to give credit for 'access to' a raid instance... that instance is 10min and done, all PUGs. The perks are dismal.
It is no secret WotLK is meant to appeal to a broader spectrum of players and this extends to raid instances. As such quality is absolutely subjective. You might be a person who prefers a longer raid instance and therefore, ToC may seem subpar for you. However, there are plenty of people who enjoy the setting and execution of ToC and believe it is a quality raid that fits their play style. The reason I mention the quests and supporting tournament grounds is because they were added to the instance and part of the original conversation was that more had been added to BC by the same time in the development cycle. Regarding VoA, it's three bosses (plus trash) that each have their own tactics whereas Gruul's and Mags were single boss fights (plus trash) if I recall correctly. So, by the measure, VoA has more to offer then two BC raids.
Just to comment on the War Effort; yes, I was there (although alliance at the time). I chose to compare due to the fact it was an event that both factions could participate toward that resulted in a raid instance. I wish there would be more multi-faction events like that and is certainly one of things I would fault Blizzard for.
As far as PvP, I paint a perfect picture and you paint the absolute worst picture. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. That said, can you blame Blizzard on this account? You are asking for spontaneous PvP and the mechanics and ruleset are there to support it. If the players don't use it how can that be Blizzard's fault?
WG on PvE is really just an extension on the Bone Wastes, Halaa, HFP towers, Zangar Marsh Towers, EPL Tower, Silithus, and whatever i may have left out. Blizzard has consistently added PvP objectives that are either predictably timed or always in play and that provide some form of benefit to the winners of the objectives. Its a good concept that gets people out of their PvE comfort zone without enforcing a ruleset that would push them away.
I haven't bothered with WG on a PvP server so I can't speak to it.
As far as the continent wide buff, I was under the impression it was an XP boost and allows you to obtain Stonekeeper's Shards from instance/raid bosses. The shards are currency for crafting recipes, various gems, pvp gear, bind on account gear, mounts, etc. Since these are attainable in any instance in Northrend and for any level that can participate in Northrend, I wouldn't really call it "nothing". VoA certainly is a quick instance don't get me wrong. This is sort of mandatory since the bosses "return to stone" about 10 min before the next match. If you get a PuG going and get all three bosses in 10 minutes then you're doing a good job. If you can get them all within 5 minutes I think you get an achievement so you better start working harder ; ).
Ultimately, it sounds like you expressed your distaste by choosing not to pay/play. I can only say "good for you" on that account as you went with your convictions. The current design philosophies appeal to my play style (which has admittedly changed since vanilla) so the product is still worth the price of admission for me. Given that basic understanding, I'm not sure we'll reach agreement. I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with it
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Apologies for the lack of formatting. I'm not on my home comp. It is no secret WotLK is meant to appeal to a broader spectrum of players and this extends to raid instances. As such quality is absolutely subjective. You might be a person who prefers a longer raid instance and therefore, ToC may seem subpar for you. However, there are plenty of people who enjoy the setting and execution of ToC and believe it is a quality raid that fits their play style. The reason I mention the quests and supporting tournament grounds is because they were added to the instance and part of the original conversation was that more had been added to BC by the same time in the development cycle. Regarding VoA, it's three bosses (plus trash) that each have their own tactics whereas Gruul's and Mags were single boss fights (plus trash) if I recall correctly. So, by the measure, VoA has more to offer then two BC raids. There is always a way to quantify criteria. This is why I say your stating that quality being subjective is a cop-out. It has nothing to do with longer raid instance. It has to do with development effort, of which there was none. Time spent developing doesn't necessarily translate to being a longer instance. If you enjoy the setting, the content, that's fine. But that argument has nothing to do with quality. It states that the end user sees no difference in quality. It doesn't state that there was quality effort involved with its creation. Content 'added later' doesn't do anything to the zone itself. You're still attempting to bundle the two. Please don't cite 'trash' in VoA, 2 random mobs before each boss that are tanked and spanked while invites are still going out and summons are being executed is the same 'trash' that preceeds HKM in Gruuls. Your examples are weak, and able to be quantified as such if you wanted to explore that avenue of argument. Do we want to explore the boss differences/similaries between VoA and Gruul/Mag? We can. And quantifiably we can suggest Mag alone was more difficult and better tuned than any of VoA: 10 people requiring a handle on final phase juggling with 3+ tanks able to coordinate interrupts alongside dps'ing adds during p1. Not to mention phase changes that needed to be juggled. If you want to argue 'the simplicity of new content makes it better quality', then I could very easily come back with how 'simple' the HKM fight setup was, but also how evident that simplicity presented a legitimate challenge and how the flow worked there. VoA? Don't stand in cloud, tanks bounce aggro, or tank here, gather adds, dps enraged go back to boss etc. There is no 'quality' here. It's all filler. If such is your taste, that's fine, that's absolutely great for you. I'm here to argue the merits of a game in its entirety, of which I will always offer objective, quantifiable, observable bullets to reference. Have I said anything thus far that hasn't been accurate or has been twisted in some degree? No, I haven't. Just to comment on the War Effort; yes, I was there (although alliance at the time). I chose to compare due to the fact it was an event that both factions could participate toward that resulted in a raid instance. I wish there would be more multi-faction events like that and is certainly one of things I would fault Blizzard for. There is so much Blizzard should be doing with their talent, and their limitless budget. Things they did well at start, and let slip or simply removed altogether from their game mechanic. I love the WoW gameplay, don't get me wrong. I have just been too disappointed with where they lead players to believing they're playing a solid product only to find Blizzard has skimped on their involvement with the things that matter most in the game. It's a gear-grind-fest. That's all that is left in the game. As far as PvP, I paint a perfect picture and you paint the absolute worst picture. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. That said, can you blame Blizzard on this account? You are asking for spontaneous PvP and the mechanics and ruleset are there to support it. If the players don't use it how can that be Blizzard's fault? I paint the real one. Am I painting the worst picture? That may be so, but I'm painting the one that takes place on the 6 servers I've called home, and the reasons why, when explored, apply themselves to any server. Does 'player versus player in the world' take place? Absolutely! That's a cop-out though. It's thin. I explore the most inclusive answer possible. Quantifiable? Let's go: flying mounts absolutely killed world PvP. There is no longer any struggle for terrain in the game, struggle for mob killing for farming. First sign of danger after getting into a bout, and people will mount up and get aerial range. Why? Because it's easily done, and the human instinct is to explore the easiest, most accessible solution it knows. We can go into how 'scheduled pvp' detracts from both the potential time and potential place that legitimate world pvp can be taking place. We can go into how increased instance access, recruit-a-friend models etc have pulled people from the 'world' itself, along with accelerated xp via RaF, BoA gear, world events all make the visit from 1-79 too fast for any lingering to take place- a direct contributer and ingredient to random, spontaneous PvP. How is Blizzard to blame exactly? Good question! Things such as scheduled PvP I've already mentioned, but I'll approach from a seperate angle to examine just how Blizzard fails with all their genius concepts. Dual talent specs. Zorn will rant and rave at how now people have access to all specs. This is true *in theory*. But let's examine *how this system actually pans out*. First, dual talents do nothing to diversify 1 trick classes. Mages can only dps. The only people who can benefit from this system are people who have diverse options in their roles. But even then, the assumption is that it will be used for PvE gain, whereas that is simply not the case. Healers end up speccing PvP healing, then PvE healing... staying in their lane to not lose familiarity when switching between systems. These 2 examples alone, and knowing for a fact that this is a hefty chunk of the endgame populace. Another example that you yourself have witnessed, of this I'm sure: people who have 2 specs, but are absolutely terrible at their second spec. So here you have an *intended* implementation that doesn't pan out the way it was designed to. A bad thing? No, but you can't simply claim a change as being a solid one. But again, how is Blizzard to blame? Their approach has been wrong since BC: they are trying to give everything to everyone. They *should be* trying to teach everyone *how* to get everything for themselves. Therein lies the flaw, which gets worse and repeats itself like a broken record throughout their game since BC launched. WG on PvE is really just an extension on the Bone Wastes, Halaa, HFP towers, Zangar Marsh Towers, EPL Tower, Silithus, and whatever i may have left out. Blizzard has consistently added PvP objectives that are either predictably timed or always in play and that provide some form of benefit to the winners of the objectives. Its a good concept that gets people out of their PvE comfort zone without enforcing a ruleset that would push them away. All these concepts? They result in nothing. It does something for the leveling avatar, or another grind. But for a capped character? Transparent. They're empty. The *concept* is solid, but again, it's not how you plan things to pan out that matters- it's how they actually *do* pan out that works. How much did you care for the towers in the Bone Wastes? I sure did to get that ring while leveling up! Afterwards? Nah, I'm good, nothing to get worked up over. There's no longevity, no system in place that has continuous purpose. How is Blizzard at fault? They've openly stated they are all about obsoleting content. This system has accelerated its course, to where inside of a single xpac, the gear, the content is so accelerated that the previous patch is obsolete by the time the next one hits. They want to create a casual game, but yet fail at it because their approach has been the wrong one. Until they modify it, they will continue to create subpar product. Subpar, because they *can* do better, and they *have* done better. I haven't bothered with WG on a PvP server so I can't speak to it. Ah, well then sadly you're missing half the argument. I've expressed how and why it's a good thing on a PvE server, but again, not for the 'open world' concept. It gains its merit via different qualifications entirely. All of which: quantifiable. As far as the continent wide buff, I was under the impression it was an XP boost and allows you to obtain Stonekeeper's Shards from instance/raid bosses. The shards are currency for crafting recipes, various gems, pvp gear, bind on account gear, mounts, etc. Since these are attainable in any instance in Northrend and for any level that can participate in Northrend, I wouldn't really call it "nothing". VoA certainly is a quick instance don't get me wrong. This is sort of mandatory since the bosses "return to stone" about 10 min before the next match. If you get a PuG going and get all three bosses in 10 minutes then you're doing a good job. If you can get them all within 5 minutes I think you get an achievement so you better start working harder ; ). Battle for WG? I can sit idle in a raid group and gain the shards. VoA is a joke, so is Sarth. Sarth+3D was actually the best thing in the game at WoLK launch, but sadly no one ever completed, because it was just an 'achievement'. Onto Uld10 because its less hassle! Wait, didn't Blizzard want everyone to experience all content? They're failing. Sarth3D is prime example. It should have been more than an achievement, because it was legitimately well designed and tuned, and the very people Blizzard panders to will never see its equal, ever. I won't go into an epeen spiel about where I've found myself throughout my MMO career, or WoW career. I've been both a complete fish out of water at times, to being a US top 25 representative of my class at the time, in a world top 200 guild. Ultimately, it sounds like you expressed your distaste by choosing not to pay/play. I can only say "good for you" on that account as you went with your convictions. The current design philosophies appeal to my play style (which has admittedly changed since vanilla) so the product is still worth the price of admission for me. Given that basic understanding, I'm not sure we'll reach agreement. I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with it Let me say the following as explicitly that I possibly can: I love WoW. I think it's the most polished, most responsive MMO to date. I am 100% against the stance Blizzard has taken, but that's not the issue I have. I have witnessed the game throughout all periods of content and at levels reserved to but the top 1% of gamers. I see Blizzard's model, know where the game should be by their own admittance, and have seen it fail at every turn because the staff that designed vanilla quit when BC hit, and it's evident the franchise has not been oriented the way it set out to be. The very goals they wish to achieve they shoot themselves in the foot with while trying to implement the tools to achieve those goals. I could list release dates, interviews, game concepts like arena and smaller raid sizes and examine, always objectively, how and why these good ideas never panned out, and how the whole game has become an increasing patch job. It's about rehashing artistic model templates, about bending lore multiple times, about carrot on a stick gear to maintain the subscriber. It's not about the game anymore, it's about the market. If the game appeals to you, that's fine, and there is nothing but respect to be had for the individual and the statement. I will continue, however, to call it like it is. The agreement that can be had is that you still enjoy the game. I will explain why the game isn't 'quality', and support why via objective means each time. You're not less of a person for enjoying it, it's just unfortunate I couldn't afford to ignore a more detailed picture. Also, please don't take my words as being abbrassive. I'm a hardliner, but my beef doesn't lie with the individual who enjoys the game. My beef lies with the people who don't allow a loyalist to enjoy the game on its own merits.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
WoW is not just a open world pvp game. It is a game with many play styles. It is a game offering open pvp servers, RL servers and PvE servers. As such, it is a game which, with 1 monthly sub, you have multiple servers offering different time zones (oceanic and US), different gamestyle (pvp, pve) and within each server lots of things to do, not just pvping all the time.
WoW offers long raids, Ulduar is long with lots of trash, many trash fights quite fun. WoW offers short raids, VoA and OS are short. If you are good, you can get through in 20 minutes. WoW offers variants in the same raid, you can kill OS with 0-3 drakes alive, and the tactics change as you leave more drakes alive. Now you do not notice any of this or dismiss them b/c you fix your eyes only on open world pvp. That is your focus. That is not the focus of everyone, and definitely not the focus of the majority of the players who choose to play in a PvE server.
By repeating your narrow view and gaming preference, and dismissing anything else as trivial, you simply seal the doors to communication. Fact is, I can just focus on the name of your handle and keep saying that by the way you spell your name, nothing you write makes sense. What is the point of going onto a discussion forum with such a mind set?
If the game appeals to you, that's fine, and there is nothing but respect to be had for the individual and the statement. I will continue, however, to call it like it is. The agreement that can be had is that you still enjoy the game. I will explain why the game isn't 'quality', and support why via objective means each time. You're not less of a person for enjoying it, it's just unfortunate I couldn't afford to ignore a more detailed picture. Also, please don't take my words as being abbrassive. I'm a hardliner, but my beef doesn't lie with the individual who enjoys the game. My beef lies with the people who don't allow a loyalist to enjoy the game on its own merits.
It's late so trying to sum up everything fairly briefly; Your "objective" view is that you feel they haven't put as much effort/resources into current development. Further you choose raids as a narrow window to frame the argument about effort in. You say the surrounding area added to support the raid doesnt matter, but that was effort spent. Introducing flying mounts, vehicle combat (in bg, raid, and wg), and phasing are a few other features that required effort as well. So sure, you can be as "objective" as you want about any sliver of the picture that suits you while neglecting the bigger picture. Just a note, this is not an implication that you must like the features in order to acknowledge effort spent.
As far as pvp, again, not really sure the arguments are relevant. The mechanics are there to support what you are saying you prefer and it sounds like players aren't leveraging those mechanics. Thats a community choice. I get that you aren't a fan of BGs and such and I can understand those gripes. I just don't really understand the flying mounts and such gripes. I mean, when I play EvE and I notice that I am up against something that is going to cost me a good amount of ISK, my next move is to warp to a bookmark, gate, or station. That is pretty close to the equivalent. I mean, I could get jammed up, but then in WoW I could get rooted. People avoiding losing exists in every game and I am not really sure there is a solution to that.
As far as being abbrassive, I don't read it that way and, even if i did, it's an internet forum; Not really a big deal in the scope of things. I don't really get your comment about not allowing a loyalist to enjoy the game on its own merits. Aside from that, we're pretty much going back and forth on "is quality" vs. "isn't quality" and then you say it is the most polished and responsive MMO to date. Not really much to discuss when you are standing on all the bases
In the end, I'm not here to sell a WoW sub to you. I don't really care if you play, used to play, plan to play, or whatever. It's nice to get an idea of what people don't like though (beyond the "ZOMG WOW SUX") because it affords me another point of view and I can step back and evaluate some of my opinions a bit more critically. I've also played through all the iterations though I've occasionally canceled to spend more time in EvE or away from MMOs altogether (growing family and all that). I like where the game is now compared to vanilla though I can acknowledge (thanks to my rose colored classes) that Vanilla was a very decent game in its own right. With that, I'll leave it to others to continue the conversation.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
If they retextured the PCs to look that good and re-did ALL the textures in the old world, I would come back. I just want it to look prettier. I really do. I also want it to be a little harder, but that's just me.
Again, sorry for formatting, not usual comp. WoW is not just a open world pvp game. It is a game with many play styles. It is a game offering open pvp servers, RL servers and PvE servers. As such, it is a game which, with 1 monthly sub, you have multiple servers offering different time zones (oceanic and US), different gamestyle (pvp, pve) and within each server lots of things to do, not just pvping all the time. Pull a table cloth on one end, and you no longer cover another. Try to pull that cloth and stretch it, you tear it somewhere. The metaphor is loosely applied to the concept that by implementing one change, you alter all pre-existing mechanics. If you don't make those changes in a solid manner, you end up juggling for balance. I've stated, explicitly, where and why this concept has panned out. I could, if we had time and resources, dive into newfeeds, dig up old data files etc to support every argument to a T, of which would prove mostly just redundant. WoW offers long raids, Ulduar is long with lots of trash, many trash fights quite fun. WoW offers short raids, VoA and OS are short. If you are good, you can get through in 20 minutes. WoW offers variants in the same raid, you can kill OS with 0-3 drakes alive, and the tactics change as you leave more drakes alive. Now you do not notice any of this or dismiss them b/c you fix your eyes only on open world pvp. That is your focus. That is not the focus of everyone, and definitely not the focus of the majority of the players who choose to play in a PvE server. Length of content is not directly related to quality development. I've stated this explicitly. The offer of an example of OS3D versus OS0D was to illustrate how an idea of scaled content missed the mark: the content is completely different. All the actors are the same, but the content is completely, completely different. Your casual gamer is still void of experiencing the same content, which was the goal expressed by the devs. You can claim that animation models are identical, but it's not the same *CONTENT*. I've stated this as well. Open world pvp is my only focus? I illustrate it as a primary point but don't mistake it as being my only issue at hand. Your interpretation is greatly misguided. You make the assumption. Perhaps, and I hate to say it, reread the sample threads and you'll notice I touch on many angles- world pvp is one such area that has suffered immensely. By repeating your narrow view and gaming preference, and dismissing anything else as trivial, you simply seal the doors to communication. Fact is, I can just focus on the name of your handle and keep saying that by the way you spell your name, nothing you write makes sense. What is the point of going onto a discussion forum with such a mind set? What narrow view do I have? I have done my research, I've done my comparisons. I've illustrated in this thread and others my knowledge and understanding of the gaming world- of the MMO WoW in particular. This is the age old problem about confidence and perceived arrogance. The only narrow-mindedness comes when the person who is unwilling to accept a superior argument turtles- exactly as you describe. I enter this forum and any other aiming to get down to the nitty-gritty. Anything less and I wouldn't be using the forum medium to its greatest potential.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
It's late so trying to sum up everything fairly briefly; Your "objective" view is that you feel they haven't put as much effort/resources into current development. Further you choose raids as a narrow window to frame the argument about effort in. You say the surrounding area added to support the raid doesnt matter, but that was effort spent. Introducing flying mounts, vehicle combat (in bg, raid, and wg), and phasing are a few other features that required effort as well. So sure, you can be as "objective" as you want about any sliver of the picture that suits you while neglecting the bigger picture. Just a note, this is not an implication that you must like the features in order to acknowledge effort spent. Yes, it's late here as well. Headed to bed myself. My 'objective' view stems from knowing how modeling works through coworkers, and how programming works through my own experience. You can state it's how I 'feel', but again, I will stand by that everything is quantifiable. Otherwise, we could split hairs all day. That effort was spent, sure, but it wasn't spent *on the instance*. It's surrounding content. Lore. New hero class development etc. All this effort is noted, and I'm not downplaying the *total effort involved* in said content patch. I'm stating that the effort spent *on the instance* was wholely disappointing. It is, after all, 1 single room with oversized, already created character models. The character model resizing is all of 1 day of work. The single room would be your standard week-two week, if that, considering Blizzard's scope of resources and experience. We were explicitly involved in 'instances' not 'instances plus associated content'. At that time we'd start mentioning how AQ20/40+silithus quests etc were all involved. As an aside, we did touch on that in a different limelight. As far as pvp, again, not really sure the arguments are relevant. The mechanics are there to support what you are saying you prefer and it sounds like players aren't leveraging those mechanics. Thats a community choice. I get that you aren't a fan of BGs and such and I can understand those gripes. I just don't really understand the flying mounts and such gripes. I mean, when I play EvE and I notice that I am up against something that is going to cost me a good amount of ISK, my next move is to warp to a bookmark, gate, or station. That is pretty close to the equivalent. I mean, I could get jammed up, but then in WoW I could get rooted. People avoiding losing exists in every game and I am not really sure there is a solution to that. It's not a community choice. It's a developer implementation that steers the community to take the most accessible path. The community reacts to the game, the game is generated by who? Flying mounts were another 'ooh ahh' perk, but at a cost to gameplay. As far as losing exits- that's the beauty of why terrain was so meaningful. Perhaps a forced hand? I'd claim the contrary. It was the standard to begin with, so no one knew what they would be 'missing' without being bound to it. For what it's worth. I enjoy some of the BGs. I wish they were more meaningful, but I wholely enjoy me some AB and AV. I do have beef with how AV ended up through all the changes, but, for what it's worth, I'd pay 5 bucks a month to play AB over and over with friends. For 15 I want a full package is all. As far as being abbrassive, I don't read it that way and, even if i did, it's an internet forum; Not really a big deal in the scope of things. I don't really get your comment about not allowing a loyalist to enjoy the game on its own merits. Aside from that, we're pretty much going back and forth on "is quality" vs. "isn't quality" and then you say it is the most polished and responsive MMO to date. Not really much to discuss when you are standing on all the bases I'm glad you don't take it that way. Often when you come out swinging people react defensively as if you were swinging at *them*. I like the game, but can't enjoy it knowing how it's progressed, and how the devs have cared less about the game and more about their subs (the timing of Naxx and BC release, later being admitted by devs). I'm a Blizzard fan through and through, but can't stomach being just another number on their yearly profit report. I'm a fan of the Blizzard that was built for gamers by gamers. Perhaps our term of 'quality' isn't the same. You claim you enjoy it, so it's 'quality enough'. I claim it's a far cry from where it should be considering the company who titles it, and the profits they reap from it. In the end, I'm not here to sell a WoW sub to you. I don't really care if you play, used to play, plan to play, or whatever. It's nice to get an idea of what people don't like though (beyond the "ZOMG WOW SUX") because it affords me another point of view and I can step back and evaluate some of my opinions a bit more critically. I've also played through all the iterations though I've occasionally canceled to spend more time in EvE or away from MMOs altogether (growing family and all that). I like where the game is now compared to vanilla though I can acknowledge (thanks to my rose colored classes) that Vanilla was a very decent game in its own right. With that, I'll leave it to others to continue the conversation. Nothing to do but /salute you on your statement here. And goodnight from the eastern seaboard for me.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Just to nick-pick a little TotC ( the raid) is two rooms, towards the end the lichking turns up and destorys the ground and you fall into a chamber below. Yes the bosses are re-used models, but its a collesium, the hunters of the world went out and captured the biggest baddest creaters they could find for us to fight against, also the fight mechanics for fighting each boss is different and that takes time to develope test and balance. It was not kocked up over a long weekend as you believe.
That content patch was more than just a raid, there was somthing for every one... if you chose to ignore that then fine.
I really, really don't mean to troll this thread, and am somewhat ashamed of myself for having allowed myself to get into detailed critiquing in this thread- it wasn't your purpose, coffee, by posting what you did, and for that I'm sorry.
2 'rooms'- touche. I can spin lore to justify my being lazy about animation models. Fight mechanics aren't a restructuring of game code in the slightest. It's snipet of functions 122, 154, 672 - throw values into spreadsheets to make sure the tuning is correct. Do I paint a very simplistic picture? Yes, I acknowledge there is testing external to the zone creation, and touch-ups that are continuously done. I'm stating, objectively for anyone with a programming or animating background, there was minimal effort involved with end-game content in WoLK. We can knit pick, but if we really wanted to hash out details and comb over claims... remember the last time we compared 'effort' I pointed out how shoulder model templates were similar as time progressed. Your claim simply was you enjoyed the job they did do. I claim they could have done much more. I think that's as close as we'd get on these sorts of topics.
Content patches are more than just raids- I nowhere ignored this. I am isolating things and picking them over one at a time. I understand if I buy one suit I get another suit free, but I'm inspecting the quality of this *one suit* before contenting myself to knowing I'm getting more for my money.
To finish on a positive note, aligned with the threads purpose of hype and information: that 4 headed flying skeletal banshee looking boss looks BAAAAAAD. That's one mother I would want to have at and put under.
I'm out of your thread coffee, apologies for the derail.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Comments
Face it, Warlock one looks really nice
The reason WOW is still number one is that like yourself wow players are just too easy to please.....with every little bone blizzard throws at them they happily wag their tail.
Among the above things you mentioned there isnt any new content. But the most typical is that you perceive a really typical and simple means of cost rationalisation which is the scaled difficulty in raids as something great....
Instead of giving their player base diversity in the form of several dungeons with different difficulty level, lazy blizzard serves them just one which can be scaled to serve every player. Saves them a lot of manpower ($$$), and the best thing is, the typical wow player is happily being tricked. Gratz Blizz on that trick. What comes next? 1 single duneon that you can scale in entry level and 10 difficulty levels?
You just sound jealous to me. Either jealous that someone is having a good time playing WoW, or that your game isn't doing as well as WoW.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Face it, Warlock one looks really nice
Hated it. It looks like a tier 2 Paladin to me. Which is a cool look, but it's a caster.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Alone or not, the *instance* itself could hardly be deemed true 'raid content'. Don't bundle it with quests and other events, those get listed and classified in their respective categories. And by referencing the AQ event, I trust you were around during that time. Being around during that time, it's somewhat surprising that you would choose to compare the two. Quality isn't subjective here. That's a cop-out. There are too many, obvious, corners cut. Half the raids are either rehashed zones or quick, 1 boss zergs. Ony was a 1 boss zone, but hardly a zerg. Gruul, Mag were small-scale zones, but also hardly zergs. Only EoE isn't a zerg here, VoA absolutely is.
You paint a perfect PvP server picture. Flying mounts, a dead landscape from 1-79 followed with 80s hanging out in daily quest hubs hardly quantifies as 'any place'. It's predictable, or so scarce it's not worth mentioning. Either you have an abundance of locations that you can farm your PvP kills at, or you have none. A small smattering of quest hub locations makes it all too common to know where to go. This is compartmentalized. It's not spontaneous. Again, assuming you were around during the AQ days, you can't seriously stand here and claim that 'world pvp' is alive and well in present-day WoW.
For a PvE server, WG works. It's a positive concept that implements according to intent. It's a zone where PvP is always at play. While it's compartmentalized, I can see the benefit of introducing the concept where it has otherwise been absent for the past 4 years on these servers. Regardless of time, there is somewhere I can go where I know people will be found who are flagged. While the location is all too predictable, the timing could be very much dynamic. The novelty isn't the lame attempt at world pvp here, it's introducing a 'mandated' PvP zone in an otherwise PvP docile world.
PvP server, come on, I know you've at least played on one. It's a zergfest every 2hrs30, then dead with 1-2 farmers. This isn't world PvP, it's a 'world queued instance'. In to get my checklist done for the day/week, then done with it.
Continent wide buff for increased xp or dmg done? I quit for the final time when ToC came out, remind me what the buff does. What does this do, legitimately, for 80s? You know, the people who are allowed inside the zone? Nothing. While I want to give credit for 'access to' a raid instance... that instance is 10min and done, all PUGs. The perks are dismal.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
It is no secret WotLK is meant to appeal to a broader spectrum of players and this extends to raid instances. As such quality is absolutely subjective. You might be a person who prefers a longer raid instance and therefore, ToC may seem subpar for you. However, there are plenty of people who enjoy the setting and execution of ToC and believe it is a quality raid that fits their play style. The reason I mention the quests and supporting tournament grounds is because they were added to the instance and part of the original conversation was that more had been added to BC by the same time in the development cycle. Regarding VoA, it's three bosses (plus trash) that each have their own tactics whereas Gruul's and Mags were single boss fights (plus trash) if I recall correctly. So, by the measure, VoA has more to offer then two BC raids.
Just to comment on the War Effort; yes, I was there (although alliance at the time). I chose to compare due to the fact it was an event that both factions could participate toward that resulted in a raid instance. I wish there would be more multi-faction events like that and is certainly one of things I would fault Blizzard for.
As far as PvP, I paint a perfect picture and you paint the absolute worst picture. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. That said, can you blame Blizzard on this account? You are asking for spontaneous PvP and the mechanics and ruleset are there to support it. If the players don't use it how can that be Blizzard's fault?
WG on PvE is really just an extension on the Bone Wastes, Halaa, HFP towers, Zangar Marsh Towers, EPL Tower, Silithus, and whatever i may have left out. Blizzard has consistently added PvP objectives that are either predictably timed or always in play and that provide some form of benefit to the winners of the objectives. Its a good concept that gets people out of their PvE comfort zone without enforcing a ruleset that would push them away.
I haven't bothered with WG on a PvP server so I can't speak to it.
As far as the continent wide buff, I was under the impression it was an XP boost and allows you to obtain Stonekeeper's Shards from instance/raid bosses. The shards are currency for crafting recipes, various gems, pvp gear, bind on account gear, mounts, etc. Since these are attainable in any instance in Northrend and for any level that can participate in Northrend, I wouldn't really call it "nothing". VoA certainly is a quick instance don't get me wrong. This is sort of mandatory since the bosses "return to stone" about 10 min before the next match. If you get a PuG going and get all three bosses in 10 minutes then you're doing a good job. If you can get them all within 5 minutes I think you get an achievement so you better start working harder ; ).
Ultimately, it sounds like you expressed your distaste by choosing not to pay/play. I can only say "good for you" on that account as you went with your convictions. The current design philosophies appeal to my play style (which has admittedly changed since vanilla) so the product is still worth the price of admission for me. Given that basic understanding, I'm not sure we'll reach agreement. I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with it
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
To Pojung
WoW is not just a open world pvp game. It is a game with many play styles. It is a game offering open pvp servers, RL servers and PvE servers. As such, it is a game which, with 1 monthly sub, you have multiple servers offering different time zones (oceanic and US), different gamestyle (pvp, pve) and within each server lots of things to do, not just pvping all the time.
WoW offers long raids, Ulduar is long with lots of trash, many trash fights quite fun. WoW offers short raids, VoA and OS are short. If you are good, you can get through in 20 minutes. WoW offers variants in the same raid, you can kill OS with 0-3 drakes alive, and the tactics change as you leave more drakes alive. Now you do not notice any of this or dismiss them b/c you fix your eyes only on open world pvp. That is your focus. That is not the focus of everyone, and definitely not the focus of the majority of the players who choose to play in a PvE server.
By repeating your narrow view and gaming preference, and dismissing anything else as trivial, you simply seal the doors to communication. Fact is, I can just focus on the name of your handle and keep saying that by the way you spell your name, nothing you write makes sense. What is the point of going onto a discussion forum with such a mind set?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
If they retextured the PCs to look that good and re-did ALL the textures in the old world, I would come back. I just want it to look prettier. I really do. I also want it to be a little harder, but that's just me.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
@pojung
Just to nick-pick a little TotC ( the raid) is two rooms, towards the end the lichking turns up and destorys the ground and you fall into a chamber below. Yes the bosses are re-used models, but its a collesium, the hunters of the world went out and captured the biggest baddest creaters they could find for us to fight against, also the fight mechanics for fighting each boss is different and that takes time to develope test and balance. It was not kocked up over a long weekend as you believe.
That content patch was more than just a raid, there was somthing for every one... if you chose to ignore that then fine.
Morning!
I really, really don't mean to troll this thread, and am somewhat ashamed of myself for having allowed myself to get into detailed critiquing in this thread- it wasn't your purpose, coffee, by posting what you did, and for that I'm sorry.
2 'rooms'- touche. I can spin lore to justify my being lazy about animation models. Fight mechanics aren't a restructuring of game code in the slightest. It's snipet of functions 122, 154, 672 - throw values into spreadsheets to make sure the tuning is correct. Do I paint a very simplistic picture? Yes, I acknowledge there is testing external to the zone creation, and touch-ups that are continuously done. I'm stating, objectively for anyone with a programming or animating background, there was minimal effort involved with end-game content in WoLK. We can knit pick, but if we really wanted to hash out details and comb over claims... remember the last time we compared 'effort' I pointed out how shoulder model templates were similar as time progressed. Your claim simply was you enjoyed the job they did do. I claim they could have done much more. I think that's as close as we'd get on these sorts of topics.
Content patches are more than just raids- I nowhere ignored this. I am isolating things and picking them over one at a time. I understand if I buy one suit I get another suit free, but I'm inspecting the quality of this *one suit* before contenting myself to knowing I'm getting more for my money.
To finish on a positive note, aligned with the threads purpose of hype and information: that 4 headed flying skeletal banshee looking boss looks BAAAAAAD. That's one mother I would want to have at and put under.
I'm out of your thread coffee, apologies for the derail.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter