The "large files" problem could be solved with streaming audio, akin to podcasts. And the lack of voiceactors could be done with the way of now extinct early Russian bootleggers. "Voiced by professional coders and programmers!"
I thought about the streaming issue when I was also thinking of ways one could add more voice acting. However, I don't know what the hit on band width would be to stream all that different content to all those players for each quest and I also wonder if the experience would be less than optimum. I know that if I stream a movie or even a song there is sometimes this buffering time that really ruins the experience.
Perhaps for people with amazing internet that might not be an issue but I suspect that most people dont' have amazing internet. Heck, some areas don't have internet at all.
People who don't have internet kinda don't count.
And the VOs could easily be optional. In fact a test VO could be right there in the option menu to check your strreaming speed. And, perhaps, you could choose either to download or to continue streaming, things like that.
lol, I supose that is true isn't it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Why streaming? All those sound files would be loaded to local systems via patch. Activated by the user and told to queue by the server, but not streaming from the server.
As far as hiring voice actors... a company could very easily tap their own employee pool rather than get some C-list actor to lend his voice. In this manner, you for-go legal obligations as well as have a persistent base from which to draw voices.
I'm a proponent of text myself. Using voices as an 'addition' and for immersion's sake, rather than a requirement to experience part of the game.
Consider people who are hard of hearing or deaf, or people who enjoy your game sans a native level of involvement with the language... text is easier on everyone, and is most accessible. Use sound as a plus, not as a requirement.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
@ ;Sovrath Why streaming? All those sound files would be loaded to local systems via patch. Activated by the user and told to queue by the server, but not streaming from the server.
As far as hiring voice actors... a company could very easily tap their own employee pool rather than get some C-list actor to lend his voice. In this manner, you for-go legal obligations as well as have a persistent base from which to draw voices.
I'm a proponent of text myself. Using voices as an 'addition' and for immersion's sake, rather than a requirement to experience part of the game. Consider people who are hard of hearing or deaf, or people who enjoy your game sans a native level of involvement with the language... text is easier on everyone, and is most accessible. Use sound as a plus, not as a requirement.
Well, I don't know the technical hurdles that one would/should incorporate. I just know that I sometimes have issues with streaming movies and music (you tube for instance) and because someone suggested streaming I thought there could be issues. If you are saying that there is a way for players to have uninterupted sound that they don't have to have on their machines then I see no reason why that couldn't be implemented.
As far as the actors go, there are a lot of great C list actors. Really. As good as anyone who you would see in a movie or on stage. But the life of an actor is not easy and they are a dime a dozen. Heck, my brother, in some ways, is a great actor. But he is out there beating the bush with all the other actors. Talent isn't the only thing that gets people jobs. There are many other factors.
I've grown up playing games with bad voice acting and I can only assume that they used the in house staff. However, if a person is in house and they are good I see no reason why they can't be used.
But good voice acting, or good acting, is not something that everyone can do. I'm pretty sure most of us have played games where they had horrible voice acting. That was either because they used friends or in house staff or just "whoever was around" or they didn't have thorough auditions.
Another thing people have to remember is that not everyone is right for the part. That is why I question the Aion voices. I don't think they were bad but the actors they got were just wrong for the part.
Originally posted by Elikal I am just so tired of this neolithic way of quest giving, and prolly I am spoilt by 5 years into EQ2, where almost every damn little sidequest NPC talks in lipsynch voice to you. I swear I am so done with this boring reading.
¿Tu hablas español?, porque yo no hablo ingles. Si me ponen los textos del NPC en ingles, los entiendo perfectamente, pero si me pones voz, no entiendo ni papa. Los MMO's necesita un publico internacional, esto es, gente de todo el mundo que no tiene porque entender voces en ingles.
Adding to that, is cheap to change the text of a quest, but If you enter voice actors, is much more expensive.
Quiero pensar que si estas en la conversacion es porque hablas ingles...
I don't agree with that as an argument against voiceovers even though i dislike them myself. You should be able to understand english if you're playing in a server that uses that language. As for translations there's a reason i avoid them. The spanish voiceovers in WOW are some of the most dreadful i've ever heard...
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I have to disagree, I read much faster than I listen and I probably would just escape the voice overs far more often than when I have to read them.
I came from a visual gaming world, before there was voice coms and we did everything by typing, including extensive roleplaying. I enjoy reading in my games and for the most part keep all sounds turned off when I play (interferes with my own soundtracks)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have to disagree, I read much faster than I listen and I probably would just escape the voice overs far more often than when I have to read them. I came from a visual gaming world, before there was voice coms and we did everything by typing, including extensive roleplaying. I enjoy reading in my games and for the most part keep all sounds turned off when I play (interferes with my own soundtracks)
Well as in EQ2 dialogue, it would have text too, skippable. I can imagine for a replay or alts you don't want to hear it again. But thats no point against it.
Also, EQ2 has a lot of VO, and it worked, so I really don't see the issue making at least a major part of a MMO with VO.
Coming from a Pen and Paper group, the first thing you teach noobs is not to say things in indirect speech but in direct speech; so not "the inn keep tells you to seek out the rat in the cellar" but "Hello, I have a rat in my cellar can you seek it out." And what would then be more logical as to make it with voice.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I like voice overs for they add immersion by lending voice and personality to the NPC.
The downside is I hate Voice Overs the 4th time through the same content.
Dragon Age is quickly teaching me that voice overs are not replay or alt friendly.
I think games need both voice and text. Voice for the the first couple of run throughs, with an option to go to text when the stuff gets old.
Also, some of those voice scenes in DA:O can take 10 to 15 minutes if you answer all the questions. Can you imagine that in an MMO? Just my luck, I will get grouped up with some guy who needs the quest and has to cycle through the voice overs... talk about bringing back downtime.
So, yes, a mix of text and voice would be the ticket.
I want to have a reason to read the text boxes. There is no necessity to read them, at least with modern MMO's, as everything is given to you that you would need to know. If they are going to use a text box system, give me a reason to read the dialogue.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
I have to disagree, I read much faster than I listen and I probably would just escape the voice overs far more often than when I have to read them. I came from a visual gaming world, before there was voice coms and we did everything by typing, including extensive roleplaying. I enjoy reading in my games and for the most part keep all sounds turned off when I play (interferes with my own soundtracks)
I agree with Kyleran here. I still play Pencil and Paper and even there I will resort to writing down what they say when I think it's important so that I can read it over a few times and "run the permutations" of what it means. Granted this isn't really so important as the missions and quests in the "modern MMO" give you a marker on a minimap and the tasks only consist of go kill this and/or bring me 5 of these. Mission/quest creativity is dead and voice overs are but a flash-pan idea to justify the long game creation times and cover the lack of depth and diversity.
Wow, if every single quest had voice-overs reading out text that I can read out myself, I think I'll kill myself. That's how much I hate voice in games, much less, full voice text. Especially if the reading speed is faster than my own. Call me old school but I would much rather read out the text, especially if there is horrid voice acting. Maybe if I come across some good ones I'll be more understanding, but so far, I have yet to come across a game with voice-overs that I don't skip. Cutscenes I can understand; I love the Guild Wars cutscenes (even though the animation is usually lacking) and anyway, I can skip those if I want to.
But if people want to implement voice, then as long as they have an option to turn it off, I don't mind.
Unless its a cut scene or just simple phrases activated when you come close to a guard, having to listen to badly spoken/written quests won't be fun. Reading is fine. If they speak they need to move their mouths, which means emoting and animation and no developer has the manpower to animate every quest giver the way they need to be. Its all automated, robotic crap most of the time. It doesn't look good and it ruins immersion more than it helps.
Unless its a cut scene or just simple phrases activated when you come close to a guard, having to listen to badly spoken/written quests won't be fun. Reading is fine. If they speak they need to move their mouths, which means emoting and animation and no developer has the manpower to animate every quest giver the way they need to be. Its all automated, robotic crap most of the time. It doesn't look good and it ruins immersion more than it helps.
I agree. Listening to that old lady complaining about having to carry her own water again and again and again while trying to fish in Stormwind in WoW drove me nuts.
"Atmospheric" voice dialog does not work well when it's just a few lines of dialog repeated ad nauseum whenever you get close enough to trigger it.
One problem with voiced dialogue over text dialogue that nobody has mentioned yet is that if you have to hire another set of voice actors if you try to localize the dialogue for another country. A lot of people would prefer not to hear a foreign language with subtitles over just simply reading text in their language.
That's why J-RPGs and such typically save the voice work for cutscenes and important dialogue and leave the rest for text.
I personally don't mind either voice (when it's done well, but I really hate when it's dubbed from a foreign language and the lip movement doesn't sync, or when the actors deliver the dialogue in wooden voices) or text. Leaving a little bit to the imagination never hurt. Also bad dialogue makes me cringe when it's delivered through either medium.
Having a voice over is much slower then most gamers can read, so it slows the process even more.
Having every bit of dialog added as a voice means lots of paid voice actors (unless you want all the NPCs to sound the same, one way to help get by this is the DDO dungeon master voice over since it can be the same voice for each dungeon). So that is higher cost for the company. On top of the all that voice will eat up a ton of harddrive space since some MMOs have thousands of quests and even more NPCs that you can talk to. That is a ton of voice files.
Now if it is forced voice (as in not a voice reading along with the text box) then you can't speed it up.
The final thing is would it be worth the cost, time and disk space for a company to implement. Most MMO players skip quest lore so all that added voice acting would be skipped so they could see the summary dialog and go do the quest real quick. Doesn't seem like a smart payout.
You can always click dialogue away, if you want to read fast through. That is no issue of critique. You can mute voices also, if you want, so thats either no issue. But for me, a MMO that really wants to deserve to be called triple A and next gen, Voice Over is a MUST have, at least quests. Those text boxes are SO uninspiring, some dull NPC stands like glued to the ground and a text box opens as if we had 1979 and some Legend Adventure. Bah.
I don' think a MMO VO is that big. Take a big single player RPG, like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. While a MMO has more quests, the dialogue itself is considerable shorter as the lengthy dialogues of said games. So netto we would have just as much disc space as in any AAA single player RPG, not the tremendous needs some expect here.
As for those who skip the lore altogether: sorry to be blunt, but a MMORPG is NOT for you. Go play some damn shooter, where you don't need to bother with a rich and deep world lore. I don't know why anyone would NOT support VO. It's like going to a Soccer or Football game and then plug your ears to silence the cheering and calling. Sure, it would be quieter, but you'd lose an important part of sensual experience. Voices are another part like music and sounds. How can one NOT want it? It's beyond me.
Seriously, why is everyone such a negative Nancy?? It adds more fun and more emotional attachment, so whats wrong with it? Wanna read, well GO BUY A FRIGGING BOOK. I can easily suggest some good for any taste. But in a Computer Game, I want to play with all my senses not follow a mute slideshow! Its not that you are FORCED to listen, as unimaginable it is to me why anyone would not listen.
Maybe my teachers were right, when they wrote into the yearbook "Visitor from another planet". Pfft. Huh-mons.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'll go over it again, the real issue is bad dialogue. I'd rather a company spend the money on good writers than good voice actors...
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I think the problem is less "I hate reading" and more "I hate having to read all this meaningless crap."
If the NPCs actually had a dialogue with you, like an exchange of sentences rather than feeding you a paragraph of pointless pleas, maybe it would be a little more interesting. As it is, every NPC is your mum or dad giving you a shopping list and some huge justification for it - it's not a quest, it's a request.
I completely agree with this. That said I prefer a voice option on top of this, but I always find interactive conversations better than reading some crap generic shopping list.
I don't think text w/o voice is going anywhere based on costs and file size, among other things. A fully voiced game would easily cost tens of thousands of dollars (maybe more) and expect half of whatever downloaded content you get to be half audio files.
I don't have a problem with having to read, but I agree a window with a page or two of text is not very "phun". There is always a way to trick people into reading, and I figured long ago to put text into overhead chat bubbles and emotes. Figure if the NPC is popping parts out one at a time while giving hand gestures to draw you in, you are more likely to actually read the shit. I think Free Realms did good with that, but the damn window is still there, the NPCs should have an empathic-style animation reel for every possible string of text to relay some kind of emotion. IMO, that's taking text as far as it's going to go.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I got much deeper into Mass Effect lore than Dragon Age lore just because the lore was also spoken in ME. In DA theres so much text and the codex keeps on updating so it is kind of a tedious task to read 'em all. I always listen to the VO. There should be more quest-, storytelling with a nice picture or a slide show with the text that you can watch/read while listening. Cutscenes are even better. That was just one of the things I loved about Guild Wars PvE.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Seriously, why is everyone such a negative Nancy?? It adds more fun and more emotional attachment, so whats wrong with it? Wanna read, well GO BUY A FRIGGING BOOK. I can easily suggest some good for any taste. But in a Computer Game, I want to play with all my senses not follow a mute slideshow! Its not that you are FORCED to listen, as unimaginable it is to me why anyone would not listen.
It's not that we're being negative; we just don't like voice-overs, period. It's purely preferential, really, though some other posters have come up with very good points on why it's not being implemented.
And yes, I do get emotional attachment while reading text. Some books have actually driven me to tears, and I have almost cried due to text quest a few times as well. The thing is, I started out as a reader before becoming a computer gamer, and personally, I find text much more imaginative. I can actually visualise in my mind what is going on, as well as add the kind of voice effects that the person presenting the quest should have, and that I find is more fun. This is also a reason why I rarely watch movies, because I find the book always much better.
And as long as I can have the option to switch off voice text, then I will be happy. I do not want to be forced to listen to something I don't want.
I vote for good writing over good voice actors myself as well. There is nothing wrong with reading, do you want signs on the tavern door to talk to you too?
We don’t exactly spend a lot of time reading quest text in a MMO so I really see no issue here.
Originally posted by Elikal I am just so tired of this neolithic way of quest giving, and prolly I am spoilt by 5 years into EQ2, where almost every damn little sidequest NPC talks in lipsynch voice to you. I swear I am so done with this boring reading.
¿Tu hablas español?, porque yo no hablo ingles. Si me ponen los textos del NPC en ingles, los entiendo perfectamente, pero si me pones voz, no entiendo ni papa. Los MMO's necesita un publico internacional, esto es, gente de todo el mundo que no tiene porque entender voces en ingles.
Adding to that, is cheap to change the text of a quest, but If you enter voice actors, is much more expensive.
Quiero pensar que si estas en la conversacion es porque hablas ingles...
I don't agree with that as an argument against voiceovers even though i dislike them myself. You should be able to understand english if you're playing in a server that uses that language. As for translations there's a reason i avoid them. The spanish voiceovers in WOW are some of the most dreadful i've ever heard...
Just as a FYI, there is a rather large difference between reading a foreign language, speaking it and listening to it.
I don't have English as my native language (first language), but I have no problems reading it. I have no problems playing games in English. But I would get into problems if I had to speak English or listen to English.
As far as I know, reading and writing a language is a skill that for many people come before the skill to talk and listen to a language.
NPC's with voice overs don't add anything for me in an MMORPG. I do like this in single player games, but in MMORPGs the NPC's don't have anything interesting to say, so I don't want to be bothered by having to listen to it.
Text is much better so I can just skip it and get to where's the fedex quest, or how many wolves do I have to kill, and how many pelts do I have to bring back for the boots of speed, or the 3 silver pieces.
You can always click dialogue away, if you want to read fast through. That is no issue of critique. You can mute voices also, if you want, so thats either no issue. But for me, a MMO that really wants to deserve to be called triple A and next gen, Voice Over is a MUST have, at least quests. Those text boxes are SO uninspiring, some dull NPC stands like glued to the ground and a text box opens as if we had 1979 and some Legend Adventure. Bah. I don' think a MMO VO is that big. Take a big single player RPG, like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. While a MMO has more quests, the dialogue itself is considerable shorter as the lengthy dialogues of said games. So netto we would have just as much disc space as in any AAA single player RPG, not the tremendous needs some expect here. As for those who skip the lore altogether: sorry to be blunt, but a MMORPG is NOT for you. Go play some damn shooter, where you don't need to bother with a rich and deep world lore. I don't know why anyone would NOT support VO. It's like going to a Soccer or Football game and then plug your ears to silence the cheering and calling. Sure, it would be quieter, but you'd lose an important part of sensual experience. Voices are another part like music and sounds. How can one NOT want it? It's beyond me. Seriously, why is everyone such a negative Nancy?? It adds more fun and more emotional attachment, so whats wrong with it? Wanna read, well GO BUY A FRIGGING BOOK. I can easily suggest some good for any taste. But in a Computer Game, I want to play with all my senses not follow a mute slideshow! Its not that you are FORCED to listen, as unimaginable it is to me why anyone would not listen. Maybe my teachers were right, when they wrote into the yearbook "Visitor from another planet". Pfft. Huh-mons.
In many games you cannot click the dialogue away. In Dragon Age, hitting escape only forwards to the next line of voice and causes the problem of potentially missing some chat and/or answering a question in a way one does not intend. So, yes, this is an issue of critique.
As I said, I am like you for I enjoy voice overs. It is on the 4th pass through that voice overs begins to become a major impediment to play. That's why I advocate an option where text can be toggled-- that way, both are happy.
MMO's can have hugely long text and voice sections. Ever play WoW? Remember back in the day before they had fast text and you had to wait until the stuff was written out? I remember several occassions where the text took so long to write out that mobs killed just prior to activating the quest dialogue respawned. The Dead Sea Turtle Quests all along Dark Shore (NE Region) were notorious for lengthy write ups, up to 2 full pages, while the murlocs respawned.
Besides, if lore is the main draw for you, and the game has new and indepth lore, it is very logical that voice and text dialogues will be long, for they have a lot of info to deliver. Yes, MMO's will need shorter dialogue times, if nothing else for having to wait on a group member to get the quest.
MMO's are not just about the lore, but it is more about the players. This is why SP games (usually) have much better stories than MMO's. The idea of Massively Online is to talk with the other players, not with the NPC's.
Negative Nancy = In this case, everyone who disagrees with you, or simply poses other options in addition to voice content (as I did).
Besides, aren't you the one who hates Dragon Age? The voice overs are part of the reason why you cannot relate to the story. See, once the Devs commit a huge portion of the budget to such things, the game becomes locked that way. If Bioware had used text, they could have included many more answering options as well as personality types, since text costs way less and takes up far less resources.
And I guarantee you are not more of an alien than I am.
Comments
I thought about the streaming issue when I was also thinking of ways one could add more voice acting. However, I don't know what the hit on band width would be to stream all that different content to all those players for each quest and I also wonder if the experience would be less than optimum. I know that if I stream a movie or even a song there is sometimes this buffering time that really ruins the experience.
Perhaps for people with amazing internet that might not be an issue but I suspect that most people dont' have amazing internet. Heck, some areas don't have internet at all.
People who don't have internet kinda don't count.
And the VOs could easily be optional. In fact a test VO could be right there in the option menu to check your strreaming speed. And, perhaps, you could choose either to download or to continue streaming, things like that.
lol, I supose that is true isn't it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
@ ;Sovrath
Why streaming? All those sound files would be loaded to local systems via patch. Activated by the user and told to queue by the server, but not streaming from the server.
As far as hiring voice actors... a company could very easily tap their own employee pool rather than get some C-list actor to lend his voice. In this manner, you for-go legal obligations as well as have a persistent base from which to draw voices.
I'm a proponent of text myself. Using voices as an 'addition' and for immersion's sake, rather than a requirement to experience part of the game.
Consider people who are hard of hearing or deaf, or people who enjoy your game sans a native level of involvement with the language... text is easier on everyone, and is most accessible. Use sound as a plus, not as a requirement.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Well, I don't know the technical hurdles that one would/should incorporate. I just know that I sometimes have issues with streaming movies and music (you tube for instance) and because someone suggested streaming I thought there could be issues. If you are saying that there is a way for players to have uninterupted sound that they don't have to have on their machines then I see no reason why that couldn't be implemented.
As far as the actors go, there are a lot of great C list actors. Really. As good as anyone who you would see in a movie or on stage. But the life of an actor is not easy and they are a dime a dozen. Heck, my brother, in some ways, is a great actor. But he is out there beating the bush with all the other actors. Talent isn't the only thing that gets people jobs. There are many other factors.
I've grown up playing games with bad voice acting and I can only assume that they used the in house staff. However, if a person is in house and they are good I see no reason why they can't be used.
But good voice acting, or good acting, is not something that everyone can do. I'm pretty sure most of us have played games where they had horrible voice acting. That was either because they used friends or in house staff or just "whoever was around" or they didn't have thorough auditions.
Another thing people have to remember is that not everyone is right for the part. That is why I question the Aion voices. I don't think they were bad but the actors they got were just wrong for the part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j0Rrs8msVQ&feature=related
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
¿Tu hablas español?, porque yo no hablo ingles. Si me ponen los textos del NPC en ingles, los entiendo perfectamente, pero si me pones voz, no entiendo ni papa. Los MMO's necesita un publico internacional, esto es, gente de todo el mundo que no tiene porque entender voces en ingles.
Adding to that, is cheap to change the text of a quest, but If you enter voice actors, is much more expensive.
Quiero pensar que si estas en la conversacion es porque hablas ingles...
I don't agree with that as an argument against voiceovers even though i dislike them myself. You should be able to understand english if you're playing in a server that uses that language. As for translations there's a reason i avoid them. The spanish voiceovers in WOW are some of the most dreadful i've ever heard...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I have to disagree, I read much faster than I listen and I probably would just escape the voice overs far more often than when I have to read them.
I came from a visual gaming world, before there was voice coms and we did everything by typing, including extensive roleplaying. I enjoy reading in my games and for the most part keep all sounds turned off when I play (interferes with my own soundtracks)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well as in EQ2 dialogue, it would have text too, skippable. I can imagine for a replay or alts you don't want to hear it again. But thats no point against it.
Also, EQ2 has a lot of VO, and it worked, so I really don't see the issue making at least a major part of a MMO with VO.
Coming from a Pen and Paper group, the first thing you teach noobs is not to say things in indirect speech but in direct speech; so not "the inn keep tells you to seek out the rat in the cellar" but "Hello, I have a rat in my cellar can you seek it out." And what would then be more logical as to make it with voice.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I like voice overs for they add immersion by lending voice and personality to the NPC.
The downside is I hate Voice Overs the 4th time through the same content.
Dragon Age is quickly teaching me that voice overs are not replay or alt friendly.
I think games need both voice and text. Voice for the the first couple of run throughs, with an option to go to text when the stuff gets old.
Also, some of those voice scenes in DA:O can take 10 to 15 minutes if you answer all the questions. Can you imagine that in an MMO? Just my luck, I will get grouped up with some guy who needs the quest and has to cycle through the voice overs... talk about bringing back downtime.
So, yes, a mix of text and voice would be the ticket.
I want to have a reason to read the text boxes. There is no necessity to read them, at least with modern MMO's, as everything is given to you that you would need to know. If they are going to use a text box system, give me a reason to read the dialogue.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
I agree with Kyleran here. I still play Pencil and Paper and even there I will resort to writing down what they say when I think it's important so that I can read it over a few times and "run the permutations" of what it means. Granted this isn't really so important as the missions and quests in the "modern MMO" give you a marker on a minimap and the tasks only consist of go kill this and/or bring me 5 of these. Mission/quest creativity is dead and voice overs are but a flash-pan idea to justify the long game creation times and cover the lack of depth and diversity.
"See, it talks! Never mind that it has the intelligence of a Miss South Carolina beauty pageant contestant!"
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Wow, if every single quest had voice-overs reading out text that I can read out myself, I think I'll kill myself. That's how much I hate voice in games, much less, full voice text. Especially if the reading speed is faster than my own. Call me old school but I would much rather read out the text, especially if there is horrid voice acting. Maybe if I come across some good ones I'll be more understanding, but so far, I have yet to come across a game with voice-overs that I don't skip. Cutscenes I can understand; I love the Guild Wars cutscenes (even though the animation is usually lacking) and anyway, I can skip those if I want to.
But if people want to implement voice, then as long as they have an option to turn it off, I don't mind.
Main characters:
Jinn Gone Quiet (Guild Wars)
Princess Pudding (Guild Wars)
Unless its a cut scene or just simple phrases activated when you come close to a guard, having to listen to badly spoken/written quests won't be fun. Reading is fine. If they speak they need to move their mouths, which means emoting and animation and no developer has the manpower to animate every quest giver the way they need to be. Its all automated, robotic crap most of the time. It doesn't look good and it ruins immersion more than it helps.
I agree. Listening to that old lady complaining about having to carry her own water again and again and again while trying to fish in Stormwind in WoW drove me nuts.
"Atmospheric" voice dialog does not work well when it's just a few lines of dialog repeated ad nauseum whenever you get close enough to trigger it.
Aside from not liking it personally there is also the cost. Way too expensive. Better to spend that money on other things.
One problem with voiced dialogue over text dialogue that nobody has mentioned yet is that if you have to hire another set of voice actors if you try to localize the dialogue for another country. A lot of people would prefer not to hear a foreign language with subtitles over just simply reading text in their language.
That's why J-RPGs and such typically save the voice work for cutscenes and important dialogue and leave the rest for text.
I personally don't mind either voice (when it's done well, but I really hate when it's dubbed from a foreign language and the lip movement doesn't sync, or when the actors deliver the dialogue in wooden voices) or text. Leaving a little bit to the imagination never hurt. Also bad dialogue makes me cringe when it's delivered through either medium.
Having a voice over is much slower then most gamers can read, so it slows the process even more.
Having every bit of dialog added as a voice means lots of paid voice actors (unless you want all the NPCs to sound the same, one way to help get by this is the DDO dungeon master voice over since it can be the same voice for each dungeon). So that is higher cost for the company. On top of the all that voice will eat up a ton of harddrive space since some MMOs have thousands of quests and even more NPCs that you can talk to. That is a ton of voice files.
Now if it is forced voice (as in not a voice reading along with the text box) then you can't speed it up.
The final thing is would it be worth the cost, time and disk space for a company to implement. Most MMO players skip quest lore so all that added voice acting would be skipped so they could see the summary dialog and go do the quest real quick. Doesn't seem like a smart payout.
You can always click dialogue away, if you want to read fast through. That is no issue of critique. You can mute voices also, if you want, so thats either no issue. But for me, a MMO that really wants to deserve to be called triple A and next gen, Voice Over is a MUST have, at least quests. Those text boxes are SO uninspiring, some dull NPC stands like glued to the ground and a text box opens as if we had 1979 and some Legend Adventure. Bah.
I don' think a MMO VO is that big. Take a big single player RPG, like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. While a MMO has more quests, the dialogue itself is considerable shorter as the lengthy dialogues of said games. So netto we would have just as much disc space as in any AAA single player RPG, not the tremendous needs some expect here.
As for those who skip the lore altogether: sorry to be blunt, but a MMORPG is NOT for you. Go play some damn shooter, where you don't need to bother with a rich and deep world lore. I don't know why anyone would NOT support VO. It's like going to a Soccer or Football game and then plug your ears to silence the cheering and calling. Sure, it would be quieter, but you'd lose an important part of sensual experience. Voices are another part like music and sounds. How can one NOT want it? It's beyond me.
Seriously, why is everyone such a negative Nancy?? It adds more fun and more emotional attachment, so whats wrong with it? Wanna read, well GO BUY A FRIGGING BOOK. I can easily suggest some good for any taste. But in a Computer Game, I want to play with all my senses not follow a mute slideshow! Its not that you are FORCED to listen, as unimaginable it is to me why anyone would not listen.
Maybe my teachers were right, when they wrote into the yearbook "Visitor from another planet". Pfft. Huh-mons.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'll go over it again, the real issue is bad dialogue. I'd rather a company spend the money on good writers than good voice actors...
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I completely agree with this. That said I prefer a voice option on top of this, but I always find interactive conversations better than reading some crap generic shopping list.
I don't think text w/o voice is going anywhere based on costs and file size, among other things. A fully voiced game would easily cost tens of thousands of dollars (maybe more) and expect half of whatever downloaded content you get to be half audio files.
I don't have a problem with having to read, but I agree a window with a page or two of text is not very "phun". There is always a way to trick people into reading, and I figured long ago to put text into overhead chat bubbles and emotes. Figure if the NPC is popping parts out one at a time while giving hand gestures to draw you in, you are more likely to actually read the shit. I think Free Realms did good with that, but the damn window is still there, the NPCs should have an empathic-style animation reel for every possible string of text to relay some kind of emotion. IMO, that's taking text as far as it's going to go.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I got much deeper into Mass Effect lore than Dragon Age lore just because the lore was also spoken in ME. In DA theres so much text and the codex keeps on updating so it is kind of a tedious task to read 'em all. I always listen to the VO. There should be more quest-, storytelling with a nice picture or a slide show with the text that you can watch/read while listening. Cutscenes are even better. That was just one of the things I loved about Guild Wars PvE.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It's not that we're being negative; we just don't like voice-overs, period. It's purely preferential, really, though some other posters have come up with very good points on why it's not being implemented.
And yes, I do get emotional attachment while reading text. Some books have actually driven me to tears, and I have almost cried due to text quest a few times as well. The thing is, I started out as a reader before becoming a computer gamer, and personally, I find text much more imaginative. I can actually visualise in my mind what is going on, as well as add the kind of voice effects that the person presenting the quest should have, and that I find is more fun. This is also a reason why I rarely watch movies, because I find the book always much better.
And as long as I can have the option to switch off voice text, then I will be happy. I do not want to be forced to listen to something I don't want.
Main characters:
Jinn Gone Quiet (Guild Wars)
Princess Pudding (Guild Wars)
I vote for good writing over good voice actors myself as well. There is nothing wrong with reading, do you want signs on the tavern door to talk to you too?
We don’t exactly spend a lot of time reading quest text in a MMO so I really see no issue here.
¿Tu hablas español?, porque yo no hablo ingles. Si me ponen los textos del NPC en ingles, los entiendo perfectamente, pero si me pones voz, no entiendo ni papa. Los MMO's necesita un publico internacional, esto es, gente de todo el mundo que no tiene porque entender voces en ingles.
Adding to that, is cheap to change the text of a quest, but If you enter voice actors, is much more expensive.
Quiero pensar que si estas en la conversacion es porque hablas ingles...
I don't agree with that as an argument against voiceovers even though i dislike them myself. You should be able to understand english if you're playing in a server that uses that language. As for translations there's a reason i avoid them. The spanish voiceovers in WOW are some of the most dreadful i've ever heard...
Just as a FYI, there is a rather large difference between reading a foreign language, speaking it and listening to it.
I don't have English as my native language (first language), but I have no problems reading it. I have no problems playing games in English. But I would get into problems if I had to speak English or listen to English.
As far as I know, reading and writing a language is a skill that for many people come before the skill to talk and listen to a language.
NPC's with voice overs don't add anything for me in an MMORPG. I do like this in single player games, but in MMORPGs the NPC's don't have anything interesting to say, so I don't want to be bothered by having to listen to it.
Text is much better so I can just skip it and get to where's the fedex quest, or how many wolves do I have to kill, and how many pelts do I have to bring back for the boots of speed, or the 3 silver pieces.
In many games you cannot click the dialogue away. In Dragon Age, hitting escape only forwards to the next line of voice and causes the problem of potentially missing some chat and/or answering a question in a way one does not intend. So, yes, this is an issue of critique.
As I said, I am like you for I enjoy voice overs. It is on the 4th pass through that voice overs begins to become a major impediment to play. That's why I advocate an option where text can be toggled-- that way, both are happy.
MMO's can have hugely long text and voice sections. Ever play WoW? Remember back in the day before they had fast text and you had to wait until the stuff was written out? I remember several occassions where the text took so long to write out that mobs killed just prior to activating the quest dialogue respawned. The Dead Sea Turtle Quests all along Dark Shore (NE Region) were notorious for lengthy write ups, up to 2 full pages, while the murlocs respawned.
Besides, if lore is the main draw for you, and the game has new and indepth lore, it is very logical that voice and text dialogues will be long, for they have a lot of info to deliver. Yes, MMO's will need shorter dialogue times, if nothing else for having to wait on a group member to get the quest.
MMO's are not just about the lore, but it is more about the players. This is why SP games (usually) have much better stories than MMO's. The idea of Massively Online is to talk with the other players, not with the NPC's.
Negative Nancy = In this case, everyone who disagrees with you, or simply poses other options in addition to voice content (as I did).
Besides, aren't you the one who hates Dragon Age? The voice overs are part of the reason why you cannot relate to the story. See, once the Devs commit a huge portion of the budget to such things, the game becomes locked that way. If Bioware had used text, they could have included many more answering options as well as personality types, since text costs way less and takes up far less resources.
And I guarantee you are not more of an alien than I am.