... Actually, after talking to a few people from old guilds that actually tried to get refunds from Mythic, WoW/Blizzard, and Sony/EQ... they had VERY different experiences. All three were gamers in America. 2 of the 3 used Visa and they were NOT refunded; their CC company said that they had broken their contract with the merchant. They were given the choice to sue the CC company and/or the merchant if they didn't like it. (Good luck!) Pity they didn't take up the option TBH.
An agreement between a customer and a merchant is nothing to do with the CC Assoc. I would have like to see the CC contract on that - maybe a debit card of some sort?
They should also have asked the CC Company for proof (that they broke the contract with the merchant). I would love to see a CC Assoc in court trying to explain that the customer was a 'gold farmer' in an MMO and broke their agreement with the merchant - and how exactly - to a judge.
1 was refunded, no questions asked. I have a feeling that the major thing that mattered in the question of American consumers, at least, was what your credit rating and how good of a customer were you? If you have a $10,000 credit limit and are never late, your CC company is going to try and treat you a little better. If you have a secured $500 credit card, good luck on that customer support... Again, anecdotal evidence at best but I thought it was interesting. US laws amaze me. Particularly with regard to software. They are probably the worst in the 'western world' with regard to consumer protection.
Why US consumers put up with it is beyond me? Where the hell is Ralph Nader?
... Actually, after talking to a few people from old guilds that actually tried to get refunds from Mythic, WoW/Blizzard, and Sony/EQ... they had VERY different experiences. All three were gamers in America. 2 of the 3 used Visa and they were NOT refunded; their CC company said that they had broken their contract with the merchant. They were given the choice to sue the CC company and/or the merchant if they didn't like it. (Good luck!) Pity they didn't take up the option TBH.
An agreement between a customer and a merchant is nothing to do with the CC Assoc. I would have like to see the CC contract on that - maybe a debit card of some sort?
They should also have asked the CC Company for proof (that they broke the contract with the merchant). I would love to see a CC Assoc in court trying to explain that the customer was a 'gold farmer' in an MMO and broke their agreement with the merchant - and how exactly - to a judge.
1 was refunded, no questions asked. I have a feeling that the major thing that mattered in the question of American consumers, at least, was what your credit rating and how good of a customer were you? If you have a $10,000 credit limit and are never late, your CC company is going to try and treat you a little better. If you have a secured $500 credit card, good luck on that customer support... Again, anecdotal evidence at best but I thought it was interesting. US laws amaze me. Particularly with regard to software. They are probably the worst in the 'western world' with regard to consumer protection.
Why US consumers put up with it is beyond me? Where the hell is Ralph Nader?
I agree. I am fascinated to see one of these cases go to court in a US court. I think it's a matter of time; we already have one guy trying to sue WoW/Blizzard for "deceptive and addiction-causing practices" - the US justice system can be very wacky, but one thing is true - it tends to favor the rich, and the corporation over the individual. The more resources you have to pay for legal help the better off you are.
I know for me, personally, the few times I've needed it; paying for the best legal counsel definitely made a huge difference in the outcome and handling of my cases. I needed an estate lawyer once to deal with some family issues; they aren't cheap and unless I had the capital to pay for one, I would be SOL.
I think the gaming companies know this in many cases. Sure, it's all well and good to sue Mythic but that can cost a lot of money. Money the average consumer just doesn't have.
... I agree. I am fascinated to see one of these cases go to court in a US court. I think it's a matter of time; we already have one guy trying to sue WoW/Blizzard for "deceptive and addiction-causing practices" ... Sadly though Erik Estavillo turned out to be an idiot. I had high hopes on his initial claim - but he chose to pursue the 'dead end' not the parts of his claim that actually stood a chance.
Still, I think it is only a matter of time.
What do they think the average age of MMO gamers is? 36? These are middle aged professionals in some cases.
There are certainly MMO players who are lawyers.
What is needed now is a talented US MMO player who is a lawyer and is interested in consumer rights.
When this person appears they will become the new Ralph Nader. There is certainly a 'job opening' there.
I think the gaming companies know this in many cases. Sure, it's all well and good to sue Mythic but that can cost a lot of money. Money the average consumer just doesn't have. Do you always have to sue? Don't you have a small claims system? Where is the FTC on this?
It seems some missed the point I was trying to make above. I'll try to clear it up.
Yes, I know Mythic is not a Credit Card Company. I was trying to point out that TOS/EULA are legally enforceable if push comes to shove (meaning, people go to court).
Whether or not the money is refunded is pretty much up to the credit company themselves. If they find that you broke the terms of the TOS and lost your account due to that, they aren't required to refund your money. However, if you have a good credit standing the credit company may take the loss and refund the money to keep you as a customer. Captial One has such measures in place called their "No Hassle" policy. An example of this is once per year I can make a phone call and ask that Captial One makes my minimum payment this month. They take a small loss, but keep me happy as their credit customer.
Subscription fees are different products than say a defective TV. Once you are charged the sub the product is delivered to you. You can't "return" the game time, hence the no refund clause.
I doubt that the gold spammers would join forces and file a class-action lawsuit against an MMO company. If you think about it, you'd have a bunch of people that would basically say "we knowingly violated the terms of a contract with <insert MMO Company> but regardless want our money back". Don't think they'd get a good reception with that .
It seems some missed the point I was trying to make above. I'll try to clear it up. I think the problem we have here is that you assume everyone is you and works under the same rules and laws that you do. We don't. U.S. Law is not universal. Yes, I know Mythic is not a Credit Card Company. I was trying to point out that TOS/EULA are legally enforceable if push comes to shove (meaning, people go to court). It's a contract. But where it falls into contract law depends on local laws. Whether or not the money is refunded is pretty much up to the credit company themselves. If they find that you broke the terms of the TOS and lost your account due to that, they aren't required to refund your money. However, if you have a good credit standing the credit company may take the loss and refund the money to keep you as a customer. Captial One has such measures in place called their "No Hassle" policy. An example of this is once per year I can make a phone call and ask that Captial One makes my minimum payment this month. They take a small loss, but keep me happy as their credit customer. Like I say... maybe where you live this is the case?
MMOs are international beasts. Subscription fees are different products than say a defective TV. Once you are charged the sub the product is delivered to you. You can't "return" the game time, hence the no refund clause. If you are denied service you can get a refund in many places. In some cases it might be a proportion. But 'no refund' is actually not legal in some countries. I doubt that the gold spammers would join forces and file a class-action lawsuit against an MMO company. If you think about it, you'd have a bunch of people that would basically say "we knowingly violated the terms of a contract with <insert MMO Company> but regardless want our money back". Don't think they'd get a good reception with that . But did they violate the law or the contract? As said earlier in this thread - they could argue that what they are selling is a service and their time. I would love to see a Gold Farmer case in Australia for example - there are parts of the EULA/ToS that could well fall under a 'restrictive trade practice' which would not go well for the MMO company at all.
It seems some missed the point I was trying to make above. I'll try to clear it up. I think the problem we have here is that you assume everyone is you and works under the same rules and laws that you do. We don't. U.S. Law is not universal. Yes, I know Mythic is not a Credit Card Company. I was trying to point out that TOS/EULA are legally enforceable if push comes to shove (meaning, people go to court). It's a contract. But where it falls into contract law depends on local laws. Whether or not the money is refunded is pretty much up to the credit company themselves. If they find that you broke the terms of the TOS and lost your account due to that, they aren't required to refund your money. However, if you have a good credit standing the credit company may take the loss and refund the money to keep you as a customer. Captial One has such measures in place called their "No Hassle" policy. An example of this is once per year I can make a phone call and ask that Captial One makes my minimum payment this month. They take a small loss, but keep me happy as their credit customer. Like I say... maybe where you live this is the case?
MMOs are international beasts. Subscription fees are different products than say a defective TV. Once you are charged the sub the product is delivered to you. You can't "return" the game time, hence the no refund clause. If you are denied service you can get a refund in many places. In some cases it might be a proportion. But 'no refund' is actually not legal in some countries. I doubt that the gold spammers would join forces and file a class-action lawsuit against an MMO company. If you think about it, you'd have a bunch of people that would basically say "we knowingly violated the terms of a contract with <insert MMO Company> but regardless want our money back". Don't think they'd get a good reception with that . But did they violate the law or the contract? As said earlier in this thread - they could argue that what they are selling is a service and their time. I would love to see a Gold Farmer case in Australia for example - there are parts of the EULA/ToS that could well fall under a 'restrictive trade practice' which would not go well for the MMO company at all.
Yes you are correct US Law is not the same as international law. However if the company is based in the US, the TOS will be bound by US Law for purposes of litigation or interpretation. Sometimes it will even get specific as to say bound by the laws of <insert state name>.
As I stated above, the contract you electronically sign (by clicking I Agree) will be bound by US law typically or a specific US state. Whichever is the case is listed in the TOS/EULA. Obviously if you play an asian game, then the it will be bound by the laws of Korea (or where ever) in that case.
Not sure why you keep repeating "where I live" as if it's important somehow? If the TOS is bound by the laws of the US and I live in the US, then I guess it is "where I live". Credit Card companies handle business intertnationaly, but when it comes to disputes with the claims they will abide by the laws of the contract of the company's country of origin typically. Again, as I said above, they have the option to refund you regardless depending on your credit score and how often you request refunds.
The no refund may be illegal in some countries, I can't dispute that. However in US it isn't illegal. So if you were a citizen of That Country , the MMO company wouldn't have to refund your money unless they themselves were based in That Country. So it would then be up to the Credit Company to determine if they want to take the loss and refund your money regardless. This particular case would have nothing to do with the MMO company at all, since its about your Credit Company and their opinion of you.
Finally, yes they did violate the contract. It clearly states, in plain simple terms, that you can't buy/sell igname virtual items for your own personal proft. Both SOE and Mythic have taken people and companies to court winning judgements on this basis. This is why you see people saying "I'm not selling you my 1000 gold, I'm charging you a fee to compensate me for my time in farming 1000 gold." This is a legalese re-wording to try and get around the language of the contracts. This is why the TOS is so dern long as the MMO company has to basically cover all the bases. That would be like saying "I didn't shoot that person I just happened to fire a gun in a paritcular direction and someone happened to be standing there". Changing the phrase doesn't change what happened.
... Yes you are correct US Law is not the same as international law. However if the company is based in the US, the TOS will be bound by US Law for purposes of litigation or interpretation. Sometimes it will even get specific as to say bound by the laws of <insert state name>. As I stated above, the contract you electronically sign (by clicking I Agree) will be bound by US law typically or a specific US state. Whichever is the case is listed in the TOS/EULA. Obviously if you play an asian game, then the it will be bound by the laws of Korea (or where ever) in that case. Not sure why you keep repeating "where I live" as if it's important somehow? If the TOS is bound by the laws of the US and I live in the US, then I guess it is "where I live". Credit Card companies handle business intertnationaly, but when it comes to disputes with the claims they will abide by the laws of the contract of the company's country of origin typically. Again, as I said above, they have the option to refund you regardless depending on your credit score and how often you request refunds. The no refund may be illegal in some countries, I can't dispute that. However in US it isn't illegal. So if you were a citizen of That Country , the MMO company wouldn't have to refund your money unless they themselves were based in That Country. So it would then be up to the Credit Company to determine if they want to take the loss and refund your money regardless. This particular case would have nothing to do with the MMO company at all, since its about your Credit Company and their opinion of you. Finally, yes they did violate the contract. It clearly states, in plain simple terms, that you can't buy/sell igname virtual items for your own personal proft. Both SOE and Mythic have taken people and companies to court winning judgements on this basis. This is why you see people saying "I'm not selling you my 1000 gold, I'm charging you a fee to compensate me for my time in farming 1000 gold." This is a legalese re-wording to try and get around the language of the contracts. This is why the TOS is so dern long as the MMO company has to basically cover all the bases. That would be like saying "I didn't shoot that person I just happened to fire a gun in a paritcular direction and someone happened to be standing there". Changing the phrase doesn't change what happened.
No. Wrong again.
It depends on how I buy the game.
If I buy a box in a retail store 'where I live' (Australia) then I am under Australian law all the way. In that case the law says that the importer is considered to be the manufacturer for most purposes unless the actual manufacturer has a place of business here.
(This is done to prevent companies attempting to avoid statutory warranties.)
The EULA / ToS then comes under the law as a 'ticket case'. Covered that above.
If I buy the same game over the internet then yes, I am bound by the (consumer) laws of the country I buy the game from.
So, if I mail order a box from Germany then things can be different than if I bought the game over the internet as a download which is different again than if I buy from my local EB games store.
The thing is that EULAs can say what they like in terms of which country or state the contract operates under - that in itself is not legal in some countries.
US Contacts might work under US Law - but outside US borders it's a whole new ball game.
Oh, and show me those SOE and Mythic Court Cases (post links and / or case numbers) interested to see those.
... Yes you are correct US Law is not the same as international law. However if the company is based in the US, the TOS will be bound by US Law for purposes of litigation or interpretation. Sometimes it will even get specific as to say bound by the laws of <insert state name>. As I stated above, the contract you electronically sign (by clicking I Agree) will be bound by US law typically or a specific US state. Whichever is the case is listed in the TOS/EULA. Obviously if you play an asian game, then the it will be bound by the laws of Korea (or where ever) in that case. Not sure why you keep repeating "where I live" as if it's important somehow? If the TOS is bound by the laws of the US and I live in the US, then I guess it is "where I live". Credit Card companies handle business intertnationaly, but when it comes to disputes with the claims they will abide by the laws of the contract of the company's country of origin typically. Again, as I said above, they have the option to refund you regardless depending on your credit score and how often you request refunds. The no refund may be illegal in some countries, I can't dispute that. However in US it isn't illegal. So if you were a citizen of That Country , the MMO company wouldn't have to refund your money unless they themselves were based in That Country. So it would then be up to the Credit Company to determine if they want to take the loss and refund your money regardless. This particular case would have nothing to do with the MMO company at all, since its about your Credit Company and their opinion of you. Finally, yes they did violate the contract. It clearly states, in plain simple terms, that you can't buy/sell igname virtual items for your own personal proft. Both SOE and Mythic have taken people and companies to court winning judgements on this basis. This is why you see people saying "I'm not selling you my 1000 gold, I'm charging you a fee to compensate me for my time in farming 1000 gold." This is a legalese re-wording to try and get around the language of the contracts. This is why the TOS is so dern long as the MMO company has to basically cover all the bases. That would be like saying "I didn't shoot that person I just happened to fire a gun in a paritcular direction and someone happened to be standing there". Changing the phrase doesn't change what happened.
No. Wrong again.
It depends on how I buy the game.
If I buy a box in a retail store 'where I live' (Australia) then I am under Australian law all the way. In that case the law says that the importer is considered to be the manufacturer for most purposes unless the actual manufacturer has a place of business here.
(This is done to prevent companies attempting to avoid statutory warranties.)
The EULA / ToS then comes under the law as a 'ticket case'. Covered that above.
If I buy the same game over the internet then yes, I am bound by the (consumer) laws of the country I buy the game from.
So, if I mail order a box from Germany then things can be different than if I bought the game over the internet as a download which is different again than if I buy from my local EB games store.
The thing is that EULAs can say what they like in terms of which country or state the contract operates under - that in itself is not legal in some countries.
US Contacts might work under US Law - but outside US borders it's a whole new ball game.
Oh, and show me those SOE and Mythic Court Cases (post links and / or case numbers) interested to see those.
Ok last chance here as apparently you don't understand it at all.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. If the game is made in Korea, the TOS will be worded to be under Korean Software Laws. When you click "I Agree" you are basically digitally signing a document saying you will be bound by the laws of Korea in relation to this virtiual contract. Will clearly state in the TOS where the document is legally bound to. An example I gave was if it states "this document bound by the laws of <insert state name>" or whatever. So even if you live in Australia, that will not matter as you signed a contract agreeing to be bound by the rules set therein. Now if Australia somehow says that the TOS is null and void in the sovereignty of Australia, then the software can't be legally sold in Australia unless the TOS is changed to abide by Australian law. If it does this, it will clearly state in the text "bound by the laws of Australia" or whatever particular province.
Even if you buy the game via digital download it still has a TOS you have to sign before you can download and/or install.
Even if you live outside the US, if you sign a contract most countries will still consider it legally binding. If they didn't then there would be no trade between countries, no contractors, no international sports, and any other numerous contracts that are done internationally.
The SOE suit was filed against ebay. This came about when Everquest items and accounts were being auctioned off on ebay. SOE argued that their TOS stated that items/chars in Everquest were SOE's property and not owned by the player. Ebay tried to counter by saying the account was the property of the player, therefore they could sell whatever they wanted. Originally Verant Interactive had filed the suit (original developer of EQ1). Ebay essentially blew off VI until SOE as the publisher (who bought out VI) came in and added their own 2 cents to the mix. SOE dropped the suit when EBay agreed to stop. Not sure if any monetary damages were awarded as that information is usually kept closed to the general public.
Mythic's suit was similar to SOE's. They asserted that their TOS was a legally binding contract that speicifically forbid the sale of ingame items as said items weren't the property of the player but Mythic.
Both suits are rather old, about 8 years for SOE and I think 6 for Mythic.
Couldn't find the links to the news reports on the suits, but I did remember that there were some webcomics made about them. the above links are to the comics that were made about the SOE suits. I know it's not much but all I could find in a few minutes.
...No. Wrong again. It depends on how I buy the game. If I buy a box in a retail store 'where I live' (Australia) then I am under Australian law all the way. In that case the law says that the importer is considered to be the manufacturer for most purposes unless the actual manufacturer has a place of business here.
(This is done to prevent companies attempting to avoid statutory warranties.) The EULA / ToS then comes under the law as a 'ticket case'. Covered that above. If I buy the same game over the internet then yes, I am bound by the (consumer) laws of the country I buy the game from.
So, if I mail order a box from Germany then things can be different than if I bought the game over the internet as a download which is different again than if I buy from my local EB games store. The thing is that EULAs can say what they like in terms of which country or state the contract operates under - that in itself is not legal in some countries. US Contacts might work under US Law - but outside US borders it's a whole new ball game.
Oh, and show me those SOE and Mythic Court Cases (post links and / or case numbers) interested to see those.
Ok last chance here as apparently you don't understand it at all.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. If the game is made in Korea, the TOS will be worded to be under Korean Software Laws. When you click "I Agree" you are basically digitally signing a document saying you will be bound by the laws of Korea in relation to this virtiual contract. Will clearly state in the TOS where the document is legally bound to.
As I say, you can say what you like in a contract, that does NOT make it legally binding.
You have to consider what is legal based on local law.
I could say in a contract that if you violate the ToS I can come to your house and kill you. That would of course be disregarded. It may not invalidate the entire contract but that clause certainly be void.
An example I gave was if it states "this document bound by the laws of <insert state name>" or whatever. So even if you live in Australia, that will not matter as you signed a contract agreeing to be bound by the rules set therein.
No. In Australia, certain things are statutory. Many countries have similar provisions in their laws (Some EU countries do). There are rights you CANNOT sign away. There are terms you CANNOT agree to.
For example - in employment contracts you CANNOT sign away your right to Workers' Insurance (we call this Workcover). US companies down here routinely try to have workers 'opt out' of this and use alternate methods of insurance (as per US rules). However, if these contracts ever go before a court those clauses are simply regarded as void - that is simply not legal here (and the companies concerned get heavily fined and have to make full payments anyway)
When you sell / buy a product in Australia you are bound by the Australian Trade Practices Act.
An EULA/ToS within that becomes a 'ticket case'. An Australian court will then decide what parts are 'fair and valid' and what parts should be disregarded if it comes to that.
You CANNOT agree to be bound by the rules of another state if you retail a product here or buy a product here.
Now if Australia somehow says that the TOS is null and void in the sovereignty of Australia, then the software can't be legally sold in Australia unless the TOS is changed to abide by Australian law. If it does this, it will clearly state in the text "bound by the laws of Australia" or whatever particular province.
Not at all. But any conditions that violate our laws are disregarded (such as 'no refunds')
Think about it... when a game is retailed in Europe (with many different countries all with slightly different rules) do you think a new ToS / EULA is written for each country? No. Some parts of the contract will be valid and the bits that aren't just aren't.
Even if you buy the game via digital download it still has a TOS you have to sign before you can download and/or install.
Different laws apply in that case. If you buy over the internet you are bound by the laws of the place you do business - however in some cases (scams) you can get some consumer protection depending on which countries are involved.
Even if you live outside the US, if you sign a contract most countries will still consider it legally binding. If they didn't then there would be no trade between countries, no contractors, no international sports, and any other numerous contracts that are done internationally.
The missing word is 'parts'. No contract is ever 100% legally binding in all situations.
In the event of a dispute a court (or courts) will decide what parts of the contract are valid and binding.
...
Thanks for the info on the cases.
Sounds like they never actaully went to court though?
Comments
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I agree. I am fascinated to see one of these cases go to court in a US court. I think it's a matter of time; we already have one guy trying to sue WoW/Blizzard for "deceptive and addiction-causing practices" - the US justice system can be very wacky, but one thing is true - it tends to favor the rich, and the corporation over the individual. The more resources you have to pay for legal help the better off you are.
I know for me, personally, the few times I've needed it; paying for the best legal counsel definitely made a huge difference in the outcome and handling of my cases. I needed an estate lawyer once to deal with some family issues; they aren't cheap and unless I had the capital to pay for one, I would be SOL.
I think the gaming companies know this in many cases. Sure, it's all well and good to sue Mythic but that can cost a lot of money. Money the average consumer just doesn't have.
Fair? No. Reality? Yeah.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
It seems some missed the point I was trying to make above. I'll try to clear it up.
Yes, I know Mythic is not a Credit Card Company. I was trying to point out that TOS/EULA are legally enforceable if push comes to shove (meaning, people go to court).
Whether or not the money is refunded is pretty much up to the credit company themselves. If they find that you broke the terms of the TOS and lost your account due to that, they aren't required to refund your money. However, if you have a good credit standing the credit company may take the loss and refund the money to keep you as a customer. Captial One has such measures in place called their "No Hassle" policy. An example of this is once per year I can make a phone call and ask that Captial One makes my minimum payment this month. They take a small loss, but keep me happy as their credit customer.
Subscription fees are different products than say a defective TV. Once you are charged the sub the product is delivered to you. You can't "return" the game time, hence the no refund clause.
I doubt that the gold spammers would join forces and file a class-action lawsuit against an MMO company. If you think about it, you'd have a bunch of people that would basically say "we knowingly violated the terms of a contract with <insert MMO Company> but regardless want our money back". Don't think they'd get a good reception with that .
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Yes you are correct US Law is not the same as international law. However if the company is based in the US, the TOS will be bound by US Law for purposes of litigation or interpretation. Sometimes it will even get specific as to say bound by the laws of <insert state name>.
As I stated above, the contract you electronically sign (by clicking I Agree) will be bound by US law typically or a specific US state. Whichever is the case is listed in the TOS/EULA. Obviously if you play an asian game, then the it will be bound by the laws of Korea (or where ever) in that case.
Not sure why you keep repeating "where I live" as if it's important somehow? If the TOS is bound by the laws of the US and I live in the US, then I guess it is "where I live". Credit Card companies handle business intertnationaly, but when it comes to disputes with the claims they will abide by the laws of the contract of the company's country of origin typically. Again, as I said above, they have the option to refund you regardless depending on your credit score and how often you request refunds.
The no refund may be illegal in some countries, I can't dispute that. However in US it isn't illegal. So if you were a citizen of That Country , the MMO company wouldn't have to refund your money unless they themselves were based in That Country. So it would then be up to the Credit Company to determine if they want to take the loss and refund your money regardless. This particular case would have nothing to do with the MMO company at all, since its about your Credit Company and their opinion of you.
Finally, yes they did violate the contract. It clearly states, in plain simple terms, that you can't buy/sell igname virtual items for your own personal proft. Both SOE and Mythic have taken people and companies to court winning judgements on this basis. This is why you see people saying "I'm not selling you my 1000 gold, I'm charging you a fee to compensate me for my time in farming 1000 gold." This is a legalese re-wording to try and get around the language of the contracts. This is why the TOS is so dern long as the MMO company has to basically cover all the bases. That would be like saying "I didn't shoot that person I just happened to fire a gun in a paritcular direction and someone happened to be standing there". Changing the phrase doesn't change what happened.
No. Wrong again.
It depends on how I buy the game.
If I buy a box in a retail store 'where I live' (Australia) then I am under Australian law all the way. In that case the law says that the importer is considered to be the manufacturer for most purposes unless the actual manufacturer has a place of business here.
(This is done to prevent companies attempting to avoid statutory warranties.)
The EULA / ToS then comes under the law as a 'ticket case'. Covered that above.
If I buy the same game over the internet then yes, I am bound by the (consumer) laws of the country I buy the game from.
So, if I mail order a box from Germany then things can be different than if I bought the game over the internet as a download which is different again than if I buy from my local EB games store.
The thing is that EULAs can say what they like in terms of which country or state the contract operates under - that in itself is not legal in some countries.
US Contacts might work under US Law - but outside US borders it's a whole new ball game.
Oh, and show me those SOE and Mythic Court Cases (post links and / or case numbers) interested to see those.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
No. Wrong again.
It depends on how I buy the game.
If I buy a box in a retail store 'where I live' (Australia) then I am under Australian law all the way. In that case the law says that the importer is considered to be the manufacturer for most purposes unless the actual manufacturer has a place of business here.
(This is done to prevent companies attempting to avoid statutory warranties.)
The EULA / ToS then comes under the law as a 'ticket case'. Covered that above.
If I buy the same game over the internet then yes, I am bound by the (consumer) laws of the country I buy the game from.
So, if I mail order a box from Germany then things can be different than if I bought the game over the internet as a download which is different again than if I buy from my local EB games store.
The thing is that EULAs can say what they like in terms of which country or state the contract operates under - that in itself is not legal in some countries.
US Contacts might work under US Law - but outside US borders it's a whole new ball game.
Oh, and show me those SOE and Mythic Court Cases (post links and / or case numbers) interested to see those.
Ok last chance here as apparently you don't understand it at all.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. If the game is made in Korea, the TOS will be worded to be under Korean Software Laws. When you click "I Agree" you are basically digitally signing a document saying you will be bound by the laws of Korea in relation to this virtiual contract. Will clearly state in the TOS where the document is legally bound to. An example I gave was if it states "this document bound by the laws of <insert state name>" or whatever. So even if you live in Australia, that will not matter as you signed a contract agreeing to be bound by the rules set therein. Now if Australia somehow says that the TOS is null and void in the sovereignty of Australia, then the software can't be legally sold in Australia unless the TOS is changed to abide by Australian law. If it does this, it will clearly state in the text "bound by the laws of Australia" or whatever particular province.
Even if you buy the game via digital download it still has a TOS you have to sign before you can download and/or install.
Even if you live outside the US, if you sign a contract most countries will still consider it legally binding. If they didn't then there would be no trade between countries, no contractors, no international sports, and any other numerous contracts that are done internationally.
The SOE suit was filed against ebay. This came about when Everquest items and accounts were being auctioned off on ebay. SOE argued that their TOS stated that items/chars in Everquest were SOE's property and not owned by the player. Ebay tried to counter by saying the account was the property of the player, therefore they could sell whatever they wanted. Originally Verant Interactive had filed the suit (original developer of EQ1). Ebay essentially blew off VI until SOE as the publisher (who bought out VI) came in and added their own 2 cents to the mix. SOE dropped the suit when EBay agreed to stop. Not sure if any monetary damages were awarded as that information is usually kept closed to the general public.
Mythic's suit was similar to SOE's. They asserted that their TOS was a legally binding contract that speicifically forbid the sale of ingame items as said items weren't the property of the player but Mythic.
Both suits are rather old, about 8 years for SOE and I think 6 for Mythic.
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=2001021
http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20010213
Couldn't find the links to the news reports on the suits, but I did remember that there were some webcomics made about them. the above links are to the comics that were made about the SOE suits. I know it's not much but all I could find in a few minutes.
Ok last chance here as apparently you don't understand it at all.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. If the game is made in Korea, the TOS will be worded to be under Korean Software Laws. When you click "I Agree" you are basically digitally signing a document saying you will be bound by the laws of Korea in relation to this virtiual contract. Will clearly state in the TOS where the document is legally bound to.
As I say, you can say what you like in a contract, that does NOT make it legally binding.
You have to consider what is legal based on local law.
I could say in a contract that if you violate the ToS I can come to your house and kill you. That would of course be disregarded. It may not invalidate the entire contract but that clause certainly be void.
An example I gave was if it states "this document bound by the laws of <insert state name>" or whatever. So even if you live in Australia, that will not matter as you signed a contract agreeing to be bound by the rules set therein.
No. In Australia, certain things are statutory. Many countries have similar provisions in their laws (Some EU countries do). There are rights you CANNOT sign away. There are terms you CANNOT agree to.
For example - in employment contracts you CANNOT sign away your right to Workers' Insurance (we call this Workcover). US companies down here routinely try to have workers 'opt out' of this and use alternate methods of insurance (as per US rules). However, if these contracts ever go before a court those clauses are simply regarded as void - that is simply not legal here (and the companies concerned get heavily fined and have to make full payments anyway)
When you sell / buy a product in Australia you are bound by the Australian Trade Practices Act.
An EULA/ToS within that becomes a 'ticket case'. An Australian court will then decide what parts are 'fair and valid' and what parts should be disregarded if it comes to that.
You CANNOT agree to be bound by the rules of another state if you retail a product here or buy a product here.
Now if Australia somehow says that the TOS is null and void in the sovereignty of Australia, then the software can't be legally sold in Australia unless the TOS is changed to abide by Australian law. If it does this, it will clearly state in the text "bound by the laws of Australia" or whatever particular province.
Not at all. But any conditions that violate our laws are disregarded (such as 'no refunds')
Think about it... when a game is retailed in Europe (with many different countries all with slightly different rules) do you think a new ToS / EULA is written for each country? No. Some parts of the contract will be valid and the bits that aren't just aren't.
Even if you buy the game via digital download it still has a TOS you have to sign before you can download and/or install.
Different laws apply in that case. If you buy over the internet you are bound by the laws of the place you do business - however in some cases (scams) you can get some consumer protection depending on which countries are involved.
Even if you live outside the US, if you sign a contract most countries will still consider it legally binding. If they didn't then there would be no trade between countries, no contractors, no international sports, and any other numerous contracts that are done internationally.
The missing word is 'parts'. No contract is ever 100% legally binding in all situations.
...In the event of a dispute a court (or courts) will decide what parts of the contract are valid and binding.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.