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What kind of leveling curve does everyone prefer?
Nicephorus
Member Posts: 52
I'm going to start off stating my #1 personal rule for MMOs:
"The most fun you will ever have in a MMO is leveling your first character to max level."
One of the things that has really depressed me about many of the new MMOs and their playerbases is it no longer seems to be about the journey, but all about getting to max level as fast as you can, and experiencing the "end game." You hear so many complaints about the "leveling grind" in games. FFXI is a very "grindy" game, and yet it never seemed that way to me because my first thought when I logged on was never "I've gotta go grab a group so I can knock out that next level" or "Only 20 more levels to go to 75." Grouping for exp was fun, and I made lots of friends that way, but like many of us, it could get a bit old by the 30th or 50th crab/raptor/turtle/skelleton etc. Fortunately I never lacked for stuff to do when I didnt feel like leveling, whether it was crafting/gardening/story missions/exploring/hunting HNMs etc. Leveling will always seem a grind, whether its killing countless monsters, or completing endless quests, if all it is to you is something to get out of the way so you can start playing the "real" game.
Now I'm not trying to tell everyone how to play. If the end game is where its at for you, great! Unfortunately, in the name of supposedly giving people what they want, ie making the wait for the end game as quick and painless as possible, I feel that the rest of the game, ie the "journey" is getting short changed. I played FFXI semi regularly for almost 2 years, and never made it to max. Yet I had an awesome time, and never felt disappointed that I didnt have a 75 in front of my name. Compare that to my most recent MMO, Lord of the Rings Online. It was an enjoyable game, and I was having a good time. However, even playing just a couple of hours a day, and actually trying not to level too quickly, it only took 3 months to max out. I couldnt help be feel disappointed. Its not that I don't enjoy end game (I raided in WOW for a couple of years), but it never equals the feeling of your first time through.
There have been some pretty heated discussions on here about how solo or group oriented FFXIV will be. I'll admit I'd probably prefer something closer to FFXI than to WOW casual. My plea to SE though, no matter how solo friendly 14 ends up being, is don't neglect the journey...
Comments
TL:DR: As long as they make the low and mid level game as interesting and involved as FFXI's, I don't care if it takes a year to reach level cap.
For the long version...
Well said, and I agree. I hope they keep that sense of "journey" intact with FFXIV as well.
Also, I'm in the same boat as you with FFXI... I played since the US launch on PC and it took me about 3 years to get my first 75. Why? Well, for one I had to start over, but still... I wasn't in a hurry. There was so much to do at every level, so many different goals to complete along the way...
For example... get subjob, get chocobo license, get Khazam Key, unlock my first advanced job (which was Samurai, incidentally), get my complete RSE set, upgrade my mog safe, get Rank 5 and my airship pass, eventually work toward Rank 10, etc. etc. etc. All but Rank 10 was achieved *well* before level 75, every one of them was a milestone, and not a single one of them (well, except maybe subjobs and Khazam key if you were lucky with drops) was something you could "race through". FFXI makes everything that's meaningful or beneficial to your character an adventure - nothing is handed to you.
When you needed help from friends to accomplish many of those tasks, or you were all helping each other... then that's where the community comes together. Unfortunately, in my experience, the community's degraded a bit over the past couple years, as more and more soloable content has been added, removing the need for groups and cooperation as much. But at one time, FFXI's community was, in my opinion, second only to Matrix Online for a couple months after its launch (freaking brilliant community that game had.. such a waste).
And then, there's how engrossing they made it. FFXI is, at its core, a Final Fantasy title put online instead of the FF theme shoe-horned into the typical MMO mold. All the depth of characters, storylines, plot twists, etc. etc. The layers upon layers of details left for players to figure out. It's a very cinematic game that puts your character right in the middle of the action - makes you *part* of the story, not merely a bystander. I'd chuckle when people were raving about how Blizzard had innovated the MMO genre by adding in-game cut-scenes with Lich King... FFXI had been doing that since day one, over 7 years ago now.
Here's a sample... (spoiler warning). This is a recording covering cut-scenes from Wings of The Goddess. I'm not sure which Nation's storyline this is for... I know I've never seen it (yay spoilers :-p)... But it shows just a small sample of how cinematic the game is. For those unfamiliar with FFXI, Karinastar in the video is the player's character.
www.youtube.com/watch
After increasing the level cap from 50 to 75 with their first expansion, Rise of The Zilart, SE never again raised the level cap. And they didn't only add on to the end game. They added new content across almost all levels with each update, and players could get into doing "raid like" content as early as level 20 with BCNMs. There was simply *so much to do*, and still is, that the journey *did* matter. Even if you hardly ever did quests, the game just has an incredible amount of things a player can choose to do.
But then... maybe that's just it.
By comparison... so many newer MMOs are so anemic and underwhelming and, frankly, lazy in their low and mid-end game, that I can understand why people aren't interested in it; whey they're in that hurry to get to end game... End game in many newer MMOs is where all the challenging and "meaningful" content is. FFXI has such content available starting at around level 20 and adds progressively more as you go up.
So yeah... I guess if you want people to pay more attention to the journey.. then you have to make it interesting and meaningful. Stop putting all the "good stuff" at the top end, and give people more to work toward along the way.
Of course, you'll have your players who *insist* that it's "all about the end game" because that's become totally ingrained in their mind... but there's plenty of MMOs for them to choose from that facilitate that just fine.
I don't think it would kill anyone to have another MMO whose focus is as much on the low and mid level game as it is on end game. Who knows... some of the "end game only" people might actually find it a nice change of pace.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I personaly would like it to take a long time to max out. Not as long as FFXI though.. think half way at US launch was 55?
But if they hold true to what they said at first of No lvls then I will be lots happier because it allways is a Pain to keep friends in the same lvl range.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Personally I loved how in FFXI you got dropped in town with 10 gil, a coupon, a slap on the ass, and a "good luck you'll need it"
If you look at my first few days in the game my first death was day one in Korroloka Tunnel. I happened to walk down there as I was exploring, zoned in, and was like "oh a bat ... lets kill it." Moral of the story was lesson learned, check mobs difficulty. I didn't need an NPC to tell me that from that point forward. Hell it took me until the next day to realize that if i use my Stone scroll I learn the spell. I had initially though that it was like a scroll in D&D or a like game where it was a one time use. Imagine walking up to a worm, dying badly then you decided to use your only scroll to save your life. "Icon learned Stone" (translation in my head: *BOOM*).
I started as a BLM (obviously) and in that job the curve is actually higher than others. It took me until partying in the Crawler's Nest before I magic bursted for first time. I didn't know what it was (or it if even existed) and I didn't happen to accidentally cast the right elemental spell at the right time. First magic burst "oh?" Second magic burst "oh." Third magic burst " OH! that is how this shit works"
Or that time I unlocked Beastmaster.
Icon: "BST done"
Linkshell: "awesome who did you get to help you with it"
Icon: "No one I soloed it"
Linkshell: "How did you get passed the Kraken?"
Icon: "Sneak"
Linkshell: "..."
Like no one figured that out before. People were paying others money to distract and train the Kraken away (which was hell on exp parties at the time since the mob would slowly train back to it camp attacking every person it could along the way). This game was 100 fold better in the days when no one know how to do shit. We were all learning the game at the same time, messing up, learning from mistakes. I mean I didn't learn to play BLM until I was into my 30s and even then I was only scratching the service of the job. With all these (for lack of a better word) WoW-bies playing games now a days that want instant gratification I don't think you will ever see a game like this again. I don't want a game where you are reward for learning to open the box and I really don't want my hand held the entire time playing either. If they could set me loose on the world without a single word I would be extremely happy, but I also know that will not happen.
In terms of the xp-curve, yeah I believe it was around there. Though they reduced it a bit some time later.
And yeah, I hope it's a longer leveling period as well.... so long as the content along the way is enjoyable.
I know everyone has their own taste and preference... but to me, a MMO whose key content is all at the level cap and involves running the same raids over and over to grind for better gear - and that's about it - is a pretty weak design. I always look at MMOs modeled around that and think "really? That's all they provide? Redundant, boring quests all the way through the game, and then all the best content is saved purely for end game? No wonder people are so anxious to get to level cap". But people seem to eat it up.
Then again, I've been spoiled by FFXI.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Totally agree. FFXi was not about max level, it was about everything around it. Long ass quests, waiting 10mins for the airship to come pick you, the journey on the airship and the arrival 10 minutes later. The long chocobo ride. I still remember my first run trying to get to Jeuno from San d'Oria by foot, dodging the Orcs through Jugners Forest (if i remember well). The first time i entered La Teine Plateau and being so amazed by the atmosphere.
For me, a game you can play casually is exactly like FFXi. The casual player will take years to reach max level (which should be one of the biggest reward in a game anyway) but will be able to contribute to the community and enjoy most aspects of the game in the low/mid levels.
About the line in blue... Indeed that was one of the best elements of FFXI, especially early on as you said. Unfortunately, nowadays, that kind of thing would lead to cries of "Unfair!", "This isn't fun!" and "This is too hard!".
I think someone summed it up best in another thread I read somewhere on here. To paraphrase, "people don't want to be challenged these days, they want to be entertained". I translate that as "many people these days don't want to have to learn or think or use their brains to succeed. They just want to press the buttons and get the reward". I'm really not sure when challenging oneself ceased to be entertaining, but there ya go. It sounds condescending, but the evidence of it is all over the place - people demonstrate it without even realizing it.
A favorite example of that very behavior... the "Mankirk's Wife" quest in WoW. This is quite possibly the greatest example of a quest that *really* isn't very difficult at all, and just requires reading the quest dialog and using about .5% of common sense.... Yet, because the quest dialog doesn't specifically *spell it out* for you, and the quest item needed isn't clearly labeled as "Mankirk's Wife" ('cause, you know, having never met the woman, you should *totally* know who she is, sight unseen, right? - many WoW players seemed to think so), it became a running joke in the game.
Not patting myself on the back here, because frankly I think anyone willing to use their brains and, again .5% of common sense would have figured it out quite easily... but I finished that quest in about 10 minutes, including the time it took to get to the general location. I didn't look it up. I didn't ask for a location in shout. I had never even heard of the quest before (was my first Horde character).
Here's the quest dialog as it was when I read it (for all I know they changed it to be more "specific", so players don't have to think):
"We battled in a small tauren camp when we were separated--she held three of the Bristlebacks off by herself. But the odds began to overwhelm us. I led some away only to see her overwhelmed by newcomers. In my rage, I turned to face my enemies, but they brought me down easily with their vast numbers.
I awoke to a tauren druid tending my wounds--he had come across me on the Gold Road as I fell.
Please, <class>, find some sign of my wife."
Now... to me, there's a big clue in that quest dialog of where to begin looking... it's the line "he had come across me on the Golden Road as I fell".
Ding! Big clue! Golden Road! That's where they were attacked and Mankirk was found... Perhaps I should start looking there! Rode down to the Golden Road location and started scouting the immediate area.. Saw a corpse on the ground near a tent, thought "Hmm.. what's that?", went over, clicked on it and voila... quest update. Rode back and got my reward. All for using a little bit of common sense. Yet, that quest was the "joke of the Barrens" for being "so vague". Again, I'm not bragging about how smart I am... My point is: It was a very simple quest if people just use their brains and stop expecting everything to be laid out for them in fine detail.
That's a great example of many people simply not wanting to have to think or be challenged in any way in many MMOs these days.
I'm just glad that FFXI wasn't like that and I hope that FFXIV is the same way.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In terms of the xp-curve, yeah I believe it was around there. Though they reduced it a bit some time later.
And yeah, I hope it's a longer leveling period as well.... so long as the content along the way is enjoyable.
I know everyone has their own taste and preference... but to me, a MMO whose key content is all at the level cap and involves running the same raids over and over to grind for better gear - and that's about it - is a pretty weak design. I always look at MMOs modeled around that and think "really? That's all they provide? Redundant, boring quests all the way through the game, and then all the best content is saved purely for end game? No wonder people are so anxious to get to level cap". But people seem to eat it up.
Then again, I've been spoiled by FFXI.
As far as: amount of exp gained so far = amount of exp needed to hit 75?
I think that point is somewhere in level 68, I might be wrong though. I know the exp from 1-55 = the exp from 70-75. I have it on my laptop if I remember to check tonight when I get home I can tell you where the mid point is (and where the mid point was at launch before they adjusted it)
This thread pretty much sums up my feelings as well. It took me 2 years to finally hit 75 in FFXI, but I started over once I hit 25 on my Hume because I wanted to be a Galka instead. There was so much to FFXI that the journey was the game. I took every opportunity I could to help out lower levels so I could re-experience some of those awesome moments. I didn't care if it took 2 hours to get that one drop they needed... it was just such a memorable game. I even leveled subjobs that didn't do anything for my main job, just to play the lower/mid levels again. Heck I even memorized much of the Renkei chart just so I knew right away which skills to use with whoever partied with me. Performing a "Light" skillchain for the first time was something I'll never forget.
Hopefully since FFXIV won't have character levels people won't even notice they are experiencing the journey and not rushing to "end-game", but I'm sure there will be those that expect to max out their skills in a month.
2 words
guild wars
Yeah, GW did put a lot of focus on story and cut-scenes... but it wasn't delivered in quite the same manner. Hard to explain, but I think it comes down to pacing. Even having storylines, you sweep through GW pretty fast, and I think it's pretty clear that the central goal of GW is the end-game PvP; the "guild wars" the game is named for. But that is about one of the best blends of the "cinematic" style with the "fast-moving, end-game" focused MMOs I've seen; then again, some would argue whether or not it's even a MMO due to the heavy reliance on instancing - I've always been pretty ambivalent about that detail myself.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think even if the MMO doesn't have a defined "end game", the players will "create" one out of what's there. I agree that trying to power-level their skills to cap as quickly as possible will very likely play a part. Players will identify and isolate their gameplay solely to the activities that get it there the quickest. Like BCNMs, I'm sure the Guildleves will be filtered through with some being deemed "mandatory" and others being deemed "useless" purely based on how much they speed up leveling skills (since some will reward with skill increases).
I also fully expect that we'll see many of those same people who put themselves through that "regimen" will then complain about a boring MMO, void of any good content.... and then blame SE instead of looking at the fact that they chose to ignore most of the content in their "race to the finish line". In FFXI, it was the end-game LS's for HNMs, etc. I'm sure they'll find an equivalent in XIV. And that's fine... I don't presume to dictate how others play the game... so long as it doesn't filter down and affect those who couldn't care less about how quickly they're leveling, or how uber their gear is but just want to enjoy the journey. This certainly did happen in XI to a degree with the whole "how you're supposed to play" thing that I ranted about in another thread :-p.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Assumingly ...
More Guildleves = more/better skills. Without that kind of idea you'd have people trying to experience endgame at startgame. I mean I always envisioned a game where you could fight the big boss immediately upon starting and you could (through extreme hardship, work, skill, luck, prayer) beat him but it would make more sense to level up some before fighting him. Thus making the fight more manageable. It is like those non-level challenge you can find on gamefaqs where you are getting though the game as quickly as possible without skilling much. Think about it from a Call of Duty stand point. Yes you can use your starter rifle with no attahments to it and still win a lot of fights, but it just gets easier the more you basically level up your gun with kills and such. You get laser sights, scopes, bullet damage as you get more kills with each gun that you don't have at the start.
In all honesty I think there will be some kind of level in FFXIV. Not in the sense of you find in a normal RPG ... /em snaps his fingers ... you know ... like they already have FFXI with the merit system. You get point that you pick and choose what you spend them on. You can increase your weapon skill or add spells or increase your HP/MP ... i think i just accidentally stumbled onto something here ...
... anywho ... there has to be some limitation to let the player into event X or Y .. level is the easiest way to do it. But something is up their sleeve.
What Id really like to see is Instead of normal games with Pve/PvP servers, Have Solo and Group servers. I understand some want solo Play. I DON'T.
I want a hard server where everyone is sitting in town afraid to go outside because there was a gnat out side. Form up a large party and smash its little bug face in.
Hell Id go back to wow if they would give me a server like that...
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
I enjoyed the time spent getting to 75 no matter what you decided to do you always had something to do you could be leveling doing quests to raise your fame hanging out talking with your linkshell. Now if we have to sacrifice community for solo play then no I don't want it however I wouldn't mind a tad bit of solo content but I do much rather prefer grouping with nice and slow leveling I hate the whole race to cap. I want to enjoy the game as long as possible like FFXI been playing on and off since PS2 release and not even 50% through content I
I love a challenge and hate easy games that hands you everything I felt a sense of accomplishment when I turned 59 and got a Haubergeon. That's what I want in an MMO a sense of accomplishment not a oh I got all my stuff in a month I want to take the time to try everything and not just rush to cap in a few weeks.
So for me I want a huge leveling curve with community.
The leveling curve should be slow enough so you dont outlevel content before you finish the quests there. It should be fast enough so you arent redoing the same content a hundred times just to level so you can do other content.
I dont mind being level 20 for 6 months as long as there is variety.
The answer to the question for me is its all about how much content there is... If there are new quests/things to explore learn about then I dun really how long it takes to get max level. Now if I gain a level and do all the quests/exploring/etc and only have 10% exp into that level and I have to strait mob grind 90% to the next level then honestly I'm not gonna bother playing.
For example if I have to kill mobs all the way up one side of a mountain and down the other side just to explore and see whats there then I'm happy about it... If I run in a big circle over and over killing mobs just to level up then I hate it.
Good thing is I see a whole lot of content in store for FFIV so a long time to max level shouldn't be an issue for me.
I think that ffxi was fine, but the problem was creating parties. It takes way, way, way, way, way, way too long to create a party. The biggest problem was that the different job dps was not balanced enough, and people just did not want to party in a less than " optimum " setup. Mob layout was piss poor also. They should have spots that would provide decent experience for smaller parties ( 3 - 4 ) people. I think that ffxi was perfect in the " solo " aspect. Solo at low levels, but party the rest of the way or play the job that could solo.
Honestly I hope it is like FFXI when it first came out and they dont throw it all out of wack with every patch t hat is my only wish for this game... im soo sick of everyone subbing ninja
Lvl 75 Black Mage/White Mage ffxi
Lvl 80 Druid WoW
Lvl 34 Ranger Aion
I think that ffxi was fine, but the problem was creating parties. It takes way, way, way, way, way, way too long to create a party. The biggest problem was that the different job dps was not balanced enough, and people just did not want to party in a less than " optimum " setup. Mob layout was piss poor also. They should have spots that would provide decent experience for smaller parties ( 3 - 4 ) people. I think that ffxi was perfect in the " solo " aspect. Solo at low levels, but party the rest of the way or play the job that could solo.
Well, again... yes sometimes parties could take a while to put together. But for the majority it was the players' own fault. Again, too many players in my experience are *way* too stuck on doing what all the guides say you're supposed to and refuse to do any different.
It went something like this: For levels x-y you're "supposed to" level in "Area A" on "B, C and D" mobs. To do that, you need to have the "optimal party" which is comprised of jobs "1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6".
It wasn't that other party setups weren't as good - it's that no one wanted to bother doing a little research and *trying* anything different. The party setup available might not be "optimum" for "Area A" , but it would be perfectly good for "Area B" or even "Area C". Trouble is, no one wanted to level in areas "B" or "C", because all the guides say you're "supposed to level in Area A", following a strict party setup.
Meanwhile, I have a friend who could *always* find a good spot to level in, at any level range, with almost any party setup. She levels jobs like a madwoman, all because she doesn't rely on "what all the guides say you're supposed to do". She had a tendency of spoiling people, myself included, because her parties always kicked ass... because she *used her head* and worked out the best spot for xp in a given situation, instead of saying "Oh well... the leveling guides say we need to go to this spot and fight these mobs with this party setup... and we don't have the perfect party setup, so I guess we just disband". Instead she'd say "okay, we have these people available for a group, so we would do great against low magic defense mobs, so we should go to this area and level". And that's what we did.
If more people thought the way she did, the perceived "grouping problems" would be far less prevalent... and it would also help the problems with areas being over-camped, because people would have more spots to choose from.
Again... many of the perceived problems in FFXI, and in MMOs in general, are self-imposed by the players and players, being people, seldom see their own faults. As the saying goes, "When you're looking for faults, use a mirror, not a telescope"
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
My bad I should have stated I last played back in 2004, and the game may have changed enough with the expansion to accomodate the classes.
It won't be even close to how slow it's in FFXI or L2, my guess is WoW/Aion style.
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actually i hear its going to be basicly the same pace but more stratagy (now that you cant "auto attack" and whatnot) so it might play out as slow if not slower, but you will have to be alot more enguaged wich might make it feel like less of a time sink (tends to feel slow when you just watching your guy swing away over actually inputing tactics)
check out some of the combat videos on youtube and whatnot to get an idea of what it might be like (of course its the final build but it wont be a complete turn around at this point)
I certainly hope not. One of the great aspects of FFXI was the fact that the pace was more leisurely. It allowed groups to do a lil chit chat in combat and allowed for more " on the fly " group tactics.
I certainly hope not. One of the great aspects of FFXI was the fact that the pace was more leisurely. It allowed groups to do a lil chit chat in combat and allowed for more " on the fly " group tactics.
as much as i agree with you, that is what they said, they want people to do more during combat, some poeple enjoyed the slower pace where as just as many wished they were doing more and like people in here think its boring.
tbh i dont care that much because atleast during the last year or 2 before i quit FFXI i just talked to people over skype while we did endgame stuff....heck when we merited we had the most random conversations.
honestly i REALLY hope they add in some sort of chat feature...even if its just for partys, becuase my PC wont be able to handel FF14 and il be playing on ps3....come on SE...atleast make a simple option for it.
I would prefer to see leveling slow. 15+ days played for the fastest hardcore players and 60+ days played for the average casual player. But the problems of today's games go beyond super fast easy leveling. The challenge and thought has been taken out of most mmo's before reaching endgame.
It is sad how fast leveling is in all new games. In games like Vanguard, WoW etc one can reach max (before level raises) in less than 5 days played without paying much attention. But it is not only the speed or lack of effort needed to achieve max level that needs to be changed but the challenge. It seems all MMOs have virtually no challenge, before the endgame, as they are dumbed down for the whiny forum players who lack patience and want a game without thought or challenge. Endgame and raids should not be the only place where there is a challenge. I would love to see group and raid mobs throughout the leveling curve that are not beatable by most if not all players. But more than that I would love to see player power greatly diminished on average mobs forcing players to pay attention more and develop better skills to level effectively.