Haha. Whatever you say mate. In order to understand an opponent, one must first understand oneself.
That doesn't even make sense in this situation. If you think that lack of innovation post WoW, had nothing to do with WoW, then you don't know ANYTHING about the history of the MMORPG industry.
The corporatization of the gaming industry had much more to do with it than any single game. If you want to blame WoW blame it for a reason more fitting, it was hugely successful and people's greed caused attempts to cash in on it.
Yes, and using English we say that... "WoW's impact on the industry, was negative". You can ham it up all you want but the bottom line of this entire thread is "WoW impact, good bad" and you JUST NOW said yourself, WoW caused deveopers to try to cash in on WoW by making bad clones of an already boring cloned game. Therefore, bad.
Haha. Whatever you say mate. In order to understand an opponent, one must first understand oneself.
That doesn't even make sense in this situation. If you think that lack of innovation post WoW, had nothing to do with WoW, then you don't know ANYTHING about the history of the MMORPG industry.
The corporatization of the gaming industry had much more to do with it than any single game. If you want to blame WoW blame it for a reason more fitting, it was hugely successful and people's greed caused attempts to cash in on it.
Yes, and using English we say that... "WoW's impact on the industry, was negative". You can ham it up all you want but the bottom line of this entire thread is "WoW impact, good bad" and you JUST NOW said yourself, WoW caused deveopers to try to cash in on WoW by making bad clones of an already boring cloned game. Therefore, bad.
Ok, WoW killed JFK, raped a kitten and caused the depression. It may have started WWII, I'm still working on that theory. Still, you want to be right so bad you miss out on being correct. This isn't discourse, it's you attempting to be TEH BEST EVAR. I can't seriously engage you on any level because I've seen how you react. Hulk smash, dude, Hulk smash.
No one can argue with a straight face that it's had a good effect on the industry. All you need to do is compare the amount of innovation, the maturity level, and the different type of games pre WoW, to the ones post WoW.
Pre WoW you had a largely varied genre with a large number of high quality unique games that devs put their heart and soul into and steadily grew over the years.
Post WoW, you have massively overproduced gimmick MMO's that are 95% WoW clone, and don't even have some of the features that games from 2000 had. PvP game from 2001 made with 30 people, max amount of people fighting at once before slow down - 600.
PvP game from 2007-8 with about a hundred developers and a marketing budget bigger than the entire budget of aforementioned game, max number of people in combat before lag - capped at 40 in an instanced zone.
WoW appeals to non gamers, which is why it is popular. It is a well polished, mind numbingly simple game. It mainstreamed the industry, brought a lot of non gamers into it. Which is nice and all, but now the people who loved the industry are left with nothing, whereas casual gamers had their own MMOs before WoW, now we have non after WoW
It appears that your opinion is heaviliy biased against WoW and is rather subjective and blinkered.
1. Innovation pre-WoW? Seriously? There wasn't that many MMO's out before WoW to make such insinuations that there was great innovation occuring before WoW. In fact there's probably more MMO's out now than there has ever been. And the majority that did release prior to WoW are still going to this day. So in actual fact, given the choice we have today, WoW has helped the industry.
2. WoW is not to blame for the maturity level of players. WoW didn't make them that way, people chose to act that way, just like asshats choose to be so on forums. Besides, there are people playing WoW who are more mature than others who have never played it. WoW opened the doors of the MMO market to the masses, but it isn't to blame for a persons maturity.
3. Quality games pre-WoW? Seriously? You would classify SWG or EQ2's (which technically launched prior to WoW) performance at launch as a measure of quality games when they ran like pants, crashed all the time and lagged everywhere? The best case in point is Anarchy Online's terrible launch back in 2001. No, the quality of MMO's didn't degrade with WoW, only the publics level of acceptance changed after WoW was introduced. And the industry had to change with it, which meant focusing on those aspects that the public defines as being a sign of quality which dev companies had never had to think about before (such as graphics and quest systems). I'm not saying WoW ran perfectly, but it performed in many respects better than others. Before WoW, people were more inclined to accept SWG's or Anarchy Onlines lag because we didn't know it could be any better. After WoW, people began comparing WoW's various elements to other games. And if WoW came out on top, then that's were people went.
4. What exactly would you class as being elements that are indicative of a WoW Clone? A usable UI perhaps? Swords and Sorcery perhaps? If anything, WoW is an EQ clone. And I bet you won't subscribe to THAT ideal. It's funny that MMORPG.COM recently did a write up of the top 10 most inappropriately used MMO phrases, and "Wow Clone" was at the top.
5. Please don't tell me you blame WoW for lag in MMO games. SWG had, and still has, awful lag. Anarchy Online which launched in 2001 again has massive lag to THIS day. WoW cannot be blamed for MMOs that were released prior to it. Furthermore, WoW cannot be blamed for devs who ignore the imbalance between what they want to achieve and what the hardware is programmed to do or can do.
6. As for features, that's not the fault of WoW directly. WoW showed the world what it could have in terms of MMO's. The MMO development focus therefore shifted to meet that demand. If the developement companies do not factor in enough time to not only meet WoW in terms of its elements but then surpass it by providing more, then WoW is not to blame for that. Rising costs are in part to blame....which brings me neatly to....
7. Overheads, cost of living and salaries have increased MANY times since 2000. You can't blame game development budgets on WoW.
There were TONS of MMOs before WoW. And the features that those MMOs introduced pretty much set the standard for the industry. Almost every modern feature in the entire MMORPG industry you can trace back to these 4, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, and EverQuest. MMO industry has been going on since what, 1994 I believe. You honestly think there were "hardly any" MMORPGs before WoW? WoW is still a young child in the industry. Tell me , what new features have been invented by WoW? Yes, WoW is to blame. Their demographic is the casual audience, people who are impatient, many who are young, and people who want instant gratification. It's not always the case, but usually, when you make a shallow game to appeal to Halo kiddies, you get, immature people. And since appealing to this market, instead of the RPG market, is so vastly successful, other MMOs have followed suit with shallow games. No, they were not inclined to accept those games, that's why Anarchy Online was hardly played by anyone, and SWG was on the verge of shutting down, the ONLY thing that saved it from its HORRIBLE launch was the Star Wars name. People love Star Wars. And yeah, games nowadays have so much LESS in them in terms of mechanics that it must be easier to launch, sadly, this has not been the case, cause games STILL launch with horrible bugs and flaws and missing features (Age of Conan) no matter the standard. WoW clone? Games that play and feel exactly like WoW perhaps? Such as, having floating quest icons, and quest xp being the primary way to level up. No death penalty. High rate of experience gain and instant gratification. No real end game. Shallow instanced based PvP/raiding system. Oversaturation of quests. Focus on solo and casual play and not on RPG mechanics or socializing. Shallow crafting system. Need I go on? WoW wasn't so much an EQ clone, more of, WoW was a kiddie version of EverQuest, with everything from the world, to the mechanics, done smaller, simpler, easier, without any depth. No, I blame WoW for popularizing simple games that try to appeal to mass audience with things that don't really matter (flashy graphics, instant gratification, ect ect) and spend less time on the actual gameplay. More money is being put into advertising than making the game. When did I? It doesn't stop at just non-MMO gamers, it extends to the same people that play Wii Fit. I have nothing against those people, and I have nothing against Wii Fit, because not all games in the entire genre have turned into Wii Fit clones. The MMORPG genre however, has turned into a market of simple WoW clones and leaves none for the people that where here when the genre was created, the MMORPG gamers. WoW uses the addictive tendencies of EQ, without ANY of the penalties for screwing up, and targets people who have never touched an online game (many times, haven't touched ANY game) because they know those simple people may have been turned off by losing something upon death, and want to provide a game that is just simple casual mindless happy gathering loot and gaining levels that mean nothing, because the leveling up system is, addictive. Again, nothing wrong with a game for casual gamers, but it doesn't stop there. Those casual gamers, usually don't have any idea an MMORPG genre even exists. I had one WoW player who told me she thought WoW was a game some guy made and runs from ONE computer and had never heard of MMORPGs before. Then the people who DO know what an MMO is, go around saying how WoW is the best thing ever, and the most innovative thing ever in the world ever!!111! It's annoying, and other companies have tried to loop in that casual market, and so us real gamers, suffer.
There, enjoy that.
1. I never said that WoW was "innovative" but your implication is that innovation has gone down because of WoW's introduction. Which is in fact wrong. WoW had nothing to do with that.
Stopped reading here. You are indeed, clueless.
Ight so your blaming WoW for having a negative effect on the mmo market. Fine thats your opinion and its just as valid as mine but lets take a moment to think here shall we. If WoW didn't come along the mmo genre would most likely be dead.
The MMORPG genre would be thriving with innovation if WoW had never been made. Did you know LOTRO was going to be a sandbox game? It was called Middle Earth Online.
Unfortunately every other MMO that's come out after it has not been, because it was trying to be WoW.
That is why I think it's more negative than positive.
Retarded devs don't seem to understand that WoW is a good game, but the game itself is not why it's so popular. For one it was in the right place at the right time.
Two, Blizzard was a well established reputable company and Warcraft was a well know series.
Those are two factors these other companies seem to overlook...
Which is why I have high hopes for games like TOR, finally breaking the mold.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
The MMORPG genre would be thriving with innovation if WoW had never been made. Did you know LOTRO was going to be a sandbox game? It was called Middle Earth Online.
The day it became LoTRO, is the day I stopped paying attention to it.
"We have spent countless hours studying Tolkien's books, to try and make the character feel he or she is living in an a part of Middle Earth."
So much ruined when they sold out to Turbine.
Before WoW, the MMO Market had massive potential. I still stick around, hoping and waiting for that potential to come back. It's not their fault, they made a game that sold huge numbers and they should be proud of that and I'm sure they are (I'm pretty sure the Farraris help too), but by those numbers WoW has effectively set MMORPGs back 15yrs.
I agree that WoW has had a positive impact on the MMO genre simply because it raised the bar of the level of quality that the majority desire. After all, the majority IS the playerbase of WoW. For example a good quest system, easy to use and customisable interface, a good background story, an acceptable system of progression and character customisation that is easy to get into, varied classes, graphics that are easy on the eyes AND the pc.
A good background story?? Compared to what, Doom?
Sorry but the background story is not Wows strongest point. Wows strongest point is the polish Blizzard put into it, the lore is worse than almost every fantasy book out there (but I am not saying that to bash Wow, most MMOs have pathetic story, LOTRO and Guildwars are the exceptions but Tolkien was a genius and Arenanet is using a rather good author for it's lore, he wrote the classic FR novel "Curse of the azure bonds").
But I still think Wows influence on the genre was negative. It wasn't Wows fault in itself but the problem was that it got so much bigger than the other that it made any suits want a piece of it and forces it's owns devs to make a game just like that. It totally killed the innovation of MMOs for 5 years, only now are we seeing that some new thinking games are on the way.
I think that the genre in itself would earn most if there is 3 big games splitting on most of the subs instead of one, it stops people from thinking that a MMO must be a certain way to get players.
Wow did have good influence on the genre too, like adding a lot of new players.
i'm sure wow helped bring more people into the mmorpg-ish genre. all that advertising and boasting of having 10 million players had to have gone somewhere.
WoW itself has done nothing but good things to the mmorpg world. It's all the developers that are trying to copy WoW's formula that are doing bad things.
Wow brought in a large demographic that had never tried MMO's before.
The presence of this new demographic has forever altered MMO's, and not in a good way.
I see, pity the rest of the world is not such a good player like you are right? You just hope all of those stupid idiot people that play WoW didnt exist right?
If wow came to end with the ridiculous and elitistic crowd like this guy then it was a good change.
How is he elitist? He's absolutely right. MMORPGs used to be for experienced gamers, and now they're dumbed down to the point where there's absolutely no challenge at all for the seasoned veteran. What has basically happened is the original MMORPG player has been forced out of the genre and a new group has taken it over. That group is the one that most MMORPG developers cater to.
so think about this... If you've only played one MMORPG, how are you supposed to know what's good? It's fun? How do you know if there's something that's way more fun out there? Nobody even has the option to play another type of MMORPG thanks to WoW. It has even drawn many players away from the few existing MMORPGs out there that are actually different because it has all the players.
First off, WoW is definitely not making people play the game and they do have other options. There are quite a few out there to play honestly. The idea that WoW is keeping you from playing other games is just stupid.
Second, let me clarify what you mean by challenge. Do you mean something that takes skill or does the word mean an overwhelming amount of grinding? WoW still requires quite a bit of skill, it is just cutting down on the grind a bit. Why do people only accept you into raids if you have the achievement for that raid? It's because if you don't know what your doing then you won't succeed hence you have to have some skill to overcome the raid.
One thing is certain, without WoW the mmorpg world would be completely different today and I think that it has done nothing but good things.
The only bad thing WoW as "done" is to make every bloody sad-sack game developer want to basically copy the game mechanisms and grab a piece of the action. Again, and again and again. Aion is the latest in lazy, copy/paste MMO gaming, except they go one step further down the road to mediocrity by limitng the game to ONE quest chain per race, ONE starting area per race and making the quests so stunningly boring that the only "grind" involved is withstanding the sheer boredom and monotony.
Pandering to the "I'm High Level So I Win" crowd by making a game where level cap was reached in two weeks just ruins the whole genre.
While it has made the MMO genre more popular and generally more accessible to the average gamer... the consequence of which has been an influx of younger gamers with a growing self importance with the need for instant gratification. It's also arguable that WoW's success as a generic hand-holding MMO has also caused the MMO market to saturate with competitors that try to 'clone' WoW's experience. The result of which has been a series of bland themepark MMOs with little new to offer. In short, it's stagnated innovation within the market.
WoW itself has done nothing but good things to the mmorpg world. It's all the developers that are trying to copy WoW's formula that are doing bad things.
I think you're making the point the OP is asking about. The EFFECT of WoW (its influence on devs) is bad.
I have to shake my head and wonder what people are thinking sometimes.
Lets imagine wow never existed and see what the mmo world would have had to build off of.
Everquest II releases and is king of the mmo hill, because honestly there isn't much else at the time.
So where do developers look for their ques to what makes the biggest mmo on the market? EQ2
Lets look at a few features of the EQ2 train wreck.
Shared death penatly. Joy, not you are punished for grouping even if the person died all the way across the zone where you have zero chance of affecting the outcome.
Zones, yes billions of loading screens. We all love waiting around for 15 loading screens just to go from one town to the next.
Instanced everything. To many people in qeynos hills, don't worry there will be 3 other instances you can choose from. Maybe your friends are in the same one as you.
20 levels of generic archtypes classes with 30 more levels of 24 classes so watered down they are only seperated by a few skills, which ironicially create massive imbalance between the desirability of those classes. The beauty of a game with 6 tank classes where 4 cannot fulfill the role of tank. Awesome.
/pizza, station exchange, etc.
Premium website access for only $2.99 a month. Who would not be thrilled to pay for something that doesn't work most of the time or is free in other games.
Adventure packs that do not work on release or are so horribly balanced that it destroys the community interaction, because everyone is hiding in their own little instance soloing the best experience in the game (I'm look at you splitpaw)
Expansions that are so rushed they barely function on release.
No pvp, who ever would want pvp in a pve game.
The mindset that players will accept anything on release and pay for the final year of development smacks so hard with EQ2 it isn't even funny.
Busted graphics engine that performs so horribly no one can possibly run the game well and that is by design.
Crafting system that was so hastily rushed into the game that many recipes cannot be used when they are purchased, because the prerequisite recipes cannot be learned for 5 more levels. Lets not forget that instead of 1 progress bar, there are now 4! Oh, and you can die while baking bread now. That is gameplay design at its finest.
Unitemized zones, massive camp fests to get access keys for special zones (that were gray to your level by the time you could actual enter them)
Massive class/combat/quest revamps that wildly changed the game and class you have been playing for a year.
casual "solo" friendly play that offered quest chains in the sequence of solo, solo, group, group, solo, group, group, solo, group.... Nothing says solo like having to ask for help then leave your group, then ask for help in another 10 minutes, then solo again, repeat.
I could go on, but the point is that EQ2 represented the pinnacle of mmo design and evolution of "the good old days". Honestly I look at where the market was heading and it was not very inspiring. The birth of wow didn't somehow remove talent and ability from other game designers. With or without wow, those companies would still be releasing games that suck and have no business being on a shelf at a software retailer.
Why is it that other genres have mega hits that also inspire innovation and evolution in their competition, even in the games that are clones. Yet in the mmo world people seem to think one game forces people to play it and has removed the ability of every other company to think for themselves and do their job of making good games. In other words, why do we work so hard to blame the failures of so many on the success of just one?
Endless companies trying to 'cash in' but failing miserably. The minority end up with some success (lotro) but the rest die a deserving death. If you dont want to play a cheap knock off game built around the everquest play style, you can play something completely crap like Darkfall or automated spreadsheets in space aka EVE. Yeah. Ill pass.
Not to mention its become the rallying call of every rabid fanboi or 'pr0 gamer' type with inncessant ,tearful, bitter posts about challenge, skillz and other such nonsense. Its an answer to any opinion it seems. Dont like this shoddy new grinder? "Go back to wow!". The truth is most people will 'go back to wow' simply because theres nothing else on offer. At least we're beginning to see some newer stuff come in using FPS mechanics - and no, I dont mean that shite grinder darkfall
Without Blizzard and WOW, more than HALF of this industry (including these editors on mmorpg.com) would't even have a job in this industry. Frankly, without Blizzard, chances were big that PC gaming would be the size of a post stamp and limited to on line browser games. So, thank you BLizzard for giving the world 5 years of World of Warcraft. They saved the pirated PC gaming world.
I would rather half the player population and fewer games, each with its own ideas, playstyle rather than hundreds of MMOs that all try to emulate WoW in some way or another.
WoW's itself has done nothing but good things to the mmorpg world. It's all the developers that are trying to copy WoW's formula that are doing bad things.
This is very true. People for some reason got the idea that blizzard forced every developer after to stop making innovations and just copy what has been done.
Finally some common sense in regards to this idiotically OLD debate about WoW "damaging" the MMO industry.
Without Blizzard and WOW, more than HALF of this industry (including these editors on mmorpg.com) would't even have a job in this industry. Frankly, without Blizzard, chances were big that PC gaming would be the size of a post stamp and limited to on line browser games. So, thank you BLizzard for giving the world 5 years of World of Warcraft. They saved the pirated PC gaming world.
There was plenty of PC gaming before WoW. I been PC gaming since my Commodore 64 in the 1980's!
WoW didn't invent, or innovate anything. They just wrapped it up in a happy meal, adding big business advertising and a nice fluffy wrapper to a polished simplistic product.
WoW neither created or ruined the PC market. It is simply just a well backed successfull product.
Unfortunatly it caught the eye of the big business vultures realizing how much cash they can milk people for with bad WoW clones.
Without Blizzard and WOW, more than HALF of this industry (including these editors on mmorpg.com) would't even have a job in this industry. Frankly, without Blizzard, chances were big that PC gaming would be the size of a post stamp and limited to on line browser games. So, thank you BLizzard for giving the world 5 years of World of Warcraft. They saved the pirated PC gaming world.
There was plenty of PC gaming before WoW. I been PC gaming since my Commodore 64 in the 1980's!
WoW didn't invent, or innovate anything. They just wrapped it up in a happy meal, adding big business advertising and a nice fluffy wrapper to a polished simplistic product.
WoW neither created or ruined the PC market. It is simply just a well backed successfull product.
Unfortunatly it caught the eye of the big business vultures realizing how much cash they can milk people for with bad WoW clones.
I keep seeing people make claims that developers are making money with "wow clones", but I am not sure that is happening. I would guess that the opposite of that is true and developers are losing money by trying to make clones or revamp their current games to be more like wow.
Basically the "innovation" in the MMO genre pre WoW was every MMO was an EQ clone because EQ was the king of the hill. So, this notion that post WoW every MMO trying to be a WoW clone is ruining the industry is stupid. Every MMO trying to be an EQ clone - no one cares Every MMO trying to be a WoW clone - doom and gloom
Uh, what?
Here's a prime example that proves you absolutely wrong.
Star Wars galaxies. Developed after EQ, by the same company. It was a stark opposite of EQ, being a sandbox MMO that did not restrict your gameplay by class. It offered features that EQ never did, such as complex player housing, player towns/cities, a very indepth crafting system. So clearly, it was not an EQ clone, but an innovative product within the MMO industry at the time.
Yet, not long after WoW came out, and was proving to be a very popular game, it just so happens that SOE decided to create the NGE for SWG. This changed the game into a confined class based MMO, with talent trees, quest treadmill, themepark MMO with very similar gameplay to WoW. This of course ruined the game, alienated the playerbase to the point where a huge portion quit, and the game has never since recovered. But I'm sure that SOE deciding to make a lot of changes to SWG similar to what was in WoW was entirely a coincidence. /rolleyes
Although WoW had the effect of opening up MMOs up to the mainstream market and creating a huge population pool of interest for future games, I think it created hype for the wrong reasons. It opened up MMOs to the public by taking the measured theme-park approach, and therein lies the negative effect. Because WoW succeeded using this model, others view it as an archetypal model for success and try to follow it with a few improvements-- economics at work, no ones to blame for that.
In summary, it undisputably brought more people into the MMO genre; great. But in doing so, it has corrupted future development through economic incentives.
UO// AC// EQ// DaOC// WOW have been the mmorpg games that in my opinion have changed the face of online gaming. Of those, I think WoW has had the most influence.
Although WoW had the effect of opening up MMOs up to the mainstream market and creating a huge population pool of interest for future games, I think it created hype for the wrong reasons. It opened up MMOs to the public by taking the measured theme-park approach, and therein lies the negative effect. Because WoW succeeded using this model, others view it as an archetypal model for success and try to follow it with a few improvements-- economics at work, no ones to blame for that. In summary, it undisputably brought more people into the MMO genre; great. But in doing so, it has corrupted future development through economic incentives.
That pretty much sums it up. Well done.
Good job to any developer who tries the opposite approach to WoW.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
UO// AC// EQ// DaOC// WOW have been the mmorpg games that in my opinion have changed the face of online gaming. Of those, I think WoW has had the most influence.
If only we lived in a world where UO and AC had been the most successful games. Sure we wouldn't have had innovation, but the games today would've been a hell of a lot more fun.
Comments
Haha. Whatever you say mate. In order to understand an opponent, one must first understand oneself.
That doesn't even make sense in this situation. If you think that lack of innovation post WoW, had nothing to do with WoW, then you don't know ANYTHING about the history of the MMORPG industry.
The corporatization of the gaming industry had much more to do with it than any single game. If you want to blame WoW blame it for a reason more fitting, it was hugely successful and people's greed caused attempts to cash in on it.
Yes, and using English we say that... "WoW's impact on the industry, was negative". You can ham it up all you want but the bottom line of this entire thread is "WoW impact, good bad" and you JUST NOW said yourself, WoW caused deveopers to try to cash in on WoW by making bad clones of an already boring cloned game. Therefore, bad.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Haha. Whatever you say mate. In order to understand an opponent, one must first understand oneself.
That doesn't even make sense in this situation. If you think that lack of innovation post WoW, had nothing to do with WoW, then you don't know ANYTHING about the history of the MMORPG industry.
The corporatization of the gaming industry had much more to do with it than any single game. If you want to blame WoW blame it for a reason more fitting, it was hugely successful and people's greed caused attempts to cash in on it.
Yes, and using English we say that... "WoW's impact on the industry, was negative". You can ham it up all you want but the bottom line of this entire thread is "WoW impact, good bad" and you JUST NOW said yourself, WoW caused deveopers to try to cash in on WoW by making bad clones of an already boring cloned game. Therefore, bad.
Ok, WoW killed JFK, raped a kitten and caused the depression. It may have started WWII, I'm still working on that theory. Still, you want to be right so bad you miss out on being correct. This isn't discourse, it's you attempting to be TEH BEST EVAR. I can't seriously engage you on any level because I've seen how you react. Hulk smash, dude, Hulk smash.
It appears that your opinion is heaviliy biased against WoW and is rather subjective and blinkered.
1. Innovation pre-WoW? Seriously? There wasn't that many MMO's out before WoW to make such insinuations that there was great innovation occuring before WoW. In fact there's probably more MMO's out now than there has ever been. And the majority that did release prior to WoW are still going to this day. So in actual fact, given the choice we have today, WoW has helped the industry.
2. WoW is not to blame for the maturity level of players. WoW didn't make them that way, people chose to act that way, just like asshats choose to be so on forums. Besides, there are people playing WoW who are more mature than others who have never played it. WoW opened the doors of the MMO market to the masses, but it isn't to blame for a persons maturity.
3. Quality games pre-WoW? Seriously? You would classify SWG or EQ2's (which technically launched prior to WoW) performance at launch as a measure of quality games when they ran like pants, crashed all the time and lagged everywhere? The best case in point is Anarchy Online's terrible launch back in 2001. No, the quality of MMO's didn't degrade with WoW, only the publics level of acceptance changed after WoW was introduced. And the industry had to change with it, which meant focusing on those aspects that the public defines as being a sign of quality which dev companies had never had to think about before (such as graphics and quest systems). I'm not saying WoW ran perfectly, but it performed in many respects better than others. Before WoW, people were more inclined to accept SWG's or Anarchy Onlines lag because we didn't know it could be any better. After WoW, people began comparing WoW's various elements to other games. And if WoW came out on top, then that's were people went.
4. What exactly would you class as being elements that are indicative of a WoW Clone? A usable UI perhaps? Swords and Sorcery perhaps? If anything, WoW is an EQ clone. And I bet you won't subscribe to THAT ideal. It's funny that MMORPG.COM recently did a write up of the top 10 most inappropriately used MMO phrases, and "Wow Clone" was at the top.
5. Please don't tell me you blame WoW for lag in MMO games. SWG had, and still has, awful lag. Anarchy Online which launched in 2001 again has massive lag to THIS day. WoW cannot be blamed for MMOs that were released prior to it. Furthermore, WoW cannot be blamed for devs who ignore the imbalance between what they want to achieve and what the hardware is programmed to do or can do.
6. As for features, that's not the fault of WoW directly. WoW showed the world what it could have in terms of MMO's. The MMO development focus therefore shifted to meet that demand. If the developement companies do not factor in enough time to not only meet WoW in terms of its elements but then surpass it by providing more, then WoW is not to blame for that. Rising costs are in part to blame....which brings me neatly to....
7. Overheads, cost of living and salaries have increased MANY times since 2000. You can't blame game development budgets on WoW.
I Agree here -------^
There, enjoy that.
1. I never said that WoW was "innovative" but your implication is that innovation has gone down because of WoW's introduction. Which is in fact wrong. WoW had nothing to do with that.
Stopped reading here. You are indeed, clueless.
Ight so your blaming WoW for having a negative effect on the mmo market. Fine thats your opinion and its just as valid as mine but lets take a moment to think here shall we. If WoW didn't come along the mmo genre would most likely be dead.
The MMORPG genre would be thriving with innovation if WoW had never been made. Did you know LOTRO was going to be a sandbox game? It was called Middle Earth Online.
Wow itself is a good game.
Unfortunately every other MMO that's come out after it has not been, because it was trying to be WoW.
That is why I think it's more negative than positive.
Retarded devs don't seem to understand that WoW is a good game, but the game itself is not why it's so popular. For one it was in the right place at the right time.
Two, Blizzard was a well established reputable company and Warcraft was a well know series.
Those are two factors these other companies seem to overlook...
Which is why I have high hopes for games like TOR, finally breaking the mold.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
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Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
The MMORPG genre would be thriving with innovation if WoW had never been made. Did you know LOTRO was going to be a sandbox game? It was called Middle Earth Online.
The day it became LoTRO, is the day I stopped paying attention to it.
"We have spent countless hours studying Tolkien's books, to try and make the character feel he or she is living in an a part of Middle Earth."
So much ruined when they sold out to Turbine.
Before WoW, the MMO Market had massive potential. I still stick around, hoping and waiting for that potential to come back. It's not their fault, they made a game that sold huge numbers and they should be proud of that and I'm sure they are (I'm pretty sure the Farraris help too), but by those numbers WoW has effectively set MMORPGs back 15yrs.
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A good background story?? Compared to what, Doom?
Sorry but the background story is not Wows strongest point. Wows strongest point is the polish Blizzard put into it, the lore is worse than almost every fantasy book out there (but I am not saying that to bash Wow, most MMOs have pathetic story, LOTRO and Guildwars are the exceptions but Tolkien was a genius and Arenanet is using a rather good author for it's lore, he wrote the classic FR novel "Curse of the azure bonds").
But I still think Wows influence on the genre was negative. It wasn't Wows fault in itself but the problem was that it got so much bigger than the other that it made any suits want a piece of it and forces it's owns devs to make a game just like that. It totally killed the innovation of MMOs for 5 years, only now are we seeing that some new thinking games are on the way.
I think that the genre in itself would earn most if there is 3 big games splitting on most of the subs instead of one, it stops people from thinking that a MMO must be a certain way to get players.
Wow did have good influence on the genre too, like adding a lot of new players.
i'm sure wow helped bring more people into the mmorpg-ish genre. all that advertising and boasting of having 10 million players had to have gone somewhere.
Wow brought in a large demographic that had never tried MMO's before.
The presence of this new demographic has forever altered MMO's, and not in a good way.
I see, pity the rest of the world is not such a good player like you are right? You just hope all of those stupid idiot people that play WoW didnt exist right?
If wow came to end with the ridiculous and elitistic crowd like this guy then it was a good change.
How is he elitist? He's absolutely right. MMORPGs used to be for experienced gamers, and now they're dumbed down to the point where there's absolutely no challenge at all for the seasoned veteran. What has basically happened is the original MMORPG player has been forced out of the genre and a new group has taken it over. That group is the one that most MMORPG developers cater to.
so think about this... If you've only played one MMORPG, how are you supposed to know what's good? It's fun? How do you know if there's something that's way more fun out there? Nobody even has the option to play another type of MMORPG thanks to WoW. It has even drawn many players away from the few existing MMORPGs out there that are actually different because it has all the players.
First off, WoW is definitely not making people play the game and they do have other options. There are quite a few out there to play honestly. The idea that WoW is keeping you from playing other games is just stupid.
Second, let me clarify what you mean by challenge. Do you mean something that takes skill or does the word mean an overwhelming amount of grinding? WoW still requires quite a bit of skill, it is just cutting down on the grind a bit. Why do people only accept you into raids if you have the achievement for that raid? It's because if you don't know what your doing then you won't succeed hence you have to have some skill to overcome the raid.
One thing is certain, without WoW the mmorpg world would be completely different today and I think that it has done nothing but good things.
Mr. Bagguns
WoW didn't bring anything new to the MMO world.
The only bad thing WoW as "done" is to make every bloody sad-sack game developer want to basically copy the game mechanisms and grab a piece of the action. Again, and again and again. Aion is the latest in lazy, copy/paste MMO gaming, except they go one step further down the road to mediocrity by limitng the game to ONE quest chain per race, ONE starting area per race and making the quests so stunningly boring that the only "grind" involved is withstanding the sheer boredom and monotony.
Pandering to the "I'm High Level So I Win" crowd by making a game where level cap was reached in two weeks just ruins the whole genre.
Overall negative.
While it has made the MMO genre more popular and generally more accessible to the average gamer... the consequence of which has been an influx of younger gamers with a growing self importance with the need for instant gratification. It's also arguable that WoW's success as a generic hand-holding MMO has also caused the MMO market to saturate with competitors that try to 'clone' WoW's experience. The result of which has been a series of bland themepark MMOs with little new to offer. In short, it's stagnated innovation within the market.
I think you're making the point the OP is asking about. The EFFECT of WoW (its influence on devs) is bad.
I have to shake my head and wonder what people are thinking sometimes.
Lets imagine wow never existed and see what the mmo world would have had to build off of.
Everquest II releases and is king of the mmo hill, because honestly there isn't much else at the time.
So where do developers look for their ques to what makes the biggest mmo on the market? EQ2
Lets look at a few features of the EQ2 train wreck.
I could go on, but the point is that EQ2 represented the pinnacle of mmo design and evolution of "the good old days". Honestly I look at where the market was heading and it was not very inspiring. The birth of wow didn't somehow remove talent and ability from other game designers. With or without wow, those companies would still be releasing games that suck and have no business being on a shelf at a software retailer.
Why is it that other genres have mega hits that also inspire innovation and evolution in their competition, even in the games that are clones. Yet in the mmo world people seem to think one game forces people to play it and has removed the ability of every other company to think for themselves and do their job of making good games. In other words, why do we work so hard to blame the failures of so many on the success of just one?
Negative. Why?
Endless companies trying to 'cash in' but failing miserably. The minority end up with some success (lotro) but the rest die a deserving death. If you dont want to play a cheap knock off game built around the everquest play style, you can play something completely crap like Darkfall or automated spreadsheets in space aka EVE. Yeah. Ill pass.
Not to mention its become the rallying call of every rabid fanboi or 'pr0 gamer' type with inncessant ,tearful, bitter posts about challenge, skillz and other such nonsense. Its an answer to any opinion it seems. Dont like this shoddy new grinder? "Go back to wow!". The truth is most people will 'go back to wow' simply because theres nothing else on offer. At least we're beginning to see some newer stuff come in using FPS mechanics - and no, I dont mean that shite grinder darkfall
I would rather half the player population and fewer games, each with its own ideas, playstyle rather than hundreds of MMOs that all try to emulate WoW in some way or another.
This is very true. People for some reason got the idea that blizzard forced every developer after to stop making innovations and just copy what has been done.
Finally some common sense in regards to this idiotically OLD debate about WoW "damaging" the MMO industry.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
There was plenty of PC gaming before WoW. I been PC gaming since my Commodore 64 in the 1980's!
WoW didn't invent, or innovate anything. They just wrapped it up in a happy meal, adding big business advertising and a nice fluffy wrapper to a polished simplistic product.
WoW neither created or ruined the PC market. It is simply just a well backed successfull product.
Unfortunatly it caught the eye of the big business vultures realizing how much cash they can milk people for with bad WoW clones.
SHOHADAKU
There was plenty of PC gaming before WoW. I been PC gaming since my Commodore 64 in the 1980's!
WoW didn't invent, or innovate anything. They just wrapped it up in a happy meal, adding big business advertising and a nice fluffy wrapper to a polished simplistic product.
WoW neither created or ruined the PC market. It is simply just a well backed successfull product.
Unfortunatly it caught the eye of the big business vultures realizing how much cash they can milk people for with bad WoW clones.
I keep seeing people make claims that developers are making money with "wow clones", but I am not sure that is happening. I would guess that the opposite of that is true and developers are losing money by trying to make clones or revamp their current games to be more like wow.
Basically the "innovation" in the MMO genre pre WoW was every MMO was an EQ clone because EQ was the king of the hill.
So, this notion that post WoW every MMO trying to be a WoW clone is ruining the industry is stupid.
Every MMO trying to be an EQ clone - no one cares
Every MMO trying to be a WoW clone - doom and gloom
Uh, what?
Here's a prime example that proves you absolutely wrong.
Star Wars galaxies. Developed after EQ, by the same company. It was a stark opposite of EQ, being a sandbox MMO that did not restrict your gameplay by class. It offered features that EQ never did, such as complex player housing, player towns/cities, a very indepth crafting system. So clearly, it was not an EQ clone, but an innovative product within the MMO industry at the time.
Yet, not long after WoW came out, and was proving to be a very popular game, it just so happens that SOE decided to create the NGE for SWG. This changed the game into a confined class based MMO, with talent trees, quest treadmill, themepark MMO with very similar gameplay to WoW. This of course ruined the game, alienated the playerbase to the point where a huge portion quit, and the game has never since recovered. But I'm sure that SOE deciding to make a lot of changes to SWG similar to what was in WoW was entirely a coincidence. /rolleyes
Although WoW had the effect of opening up MMOs up to the mainstream market and creating a huge population pool of interest for future games, I think it created hype for the wrong reasons. It opened up MMOs to the public by taking the measured theme-park approach, and therein lies the negative effect. Because WoW succeeded using this model, others view it as an archetypal model for success and try to follow it with a few improvements-- economics at work, no ones to blame for that.
In summary, it undisputably brought more people into the MMO genre; great. But in doing so, it has corrupted future development through economic incentives.
UO// AC// EQ// DaOC// WOW have been the mmorpg games that in my opinion have changed the face of online gaming. Of those, I think WoW has had the most influence.
That pretty much sums it up. Well done.
Good job to any developer who tries the opposite approach to WoW.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
If only we lived in a world where UO and AC had been the most successful games. Sure we wouldn't have had innovation, but the games today would've been a hell of a lot more fun.