If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest mmo those would be to hardcore for the wow players.
It takes more time to play a MMORPG like UO than it does to become "world's best" piano/cello/violin player.
That says something.
No. The reason UO is still the best MMO that's been released is because they did something that most developers since haven't bothered with: detail and RP elements. At a base level, all MMORPG's are about playing a role, whether someone wants to create a fictional persona to match their character or not. UO is still a widely played game in emulated and private shards alone because they took the time to develop the little details that by themselves are frivolous, but together create an immersive experience. I'm talking about things like blank books that people could write stories in and pass around, or water pitchers that after you drink from you can refill from another source of water, or even the way the inventory, weight, and item management system works. Look at the crafting system in UO: it allows you to create almost everything in the game, from furniture, to spell scrolls, to the full range of weapons and armor, potions, an enormous range of clothing options, bows and arrows, traps - the list goes on, and on. Designing and customizing a house in UO gave players the freedom to create their own hubs of activity and had nearly endless possibilities with what could be done, simply because the engine allowed players to interact with almost everything. Customizing characters was almost as varied as house design, and it was all detail; none of it reflected on the skills or abilities of the character itself. Most of these things I'm listing aren't even important when you're playing the game from a PvP or a Min/Max perspective, but they're there to give players of a wide range of styles to co-exist in the same world. We don't need several MMORPG's providing several varied experiences for individual archetypes of players, we need one that provides us all the experiences we're looking for. That, in my opinion, is exactly why the MMO market in general is full of titles that rise and fall seemingly over night and why the genre itself needs to seriously reprioritize what they're trying to achieve. It shouldn't be about money, it should be about community and bringing players of all walks of life together.
When I see someone disregard this game as "crap" because it "takes more time to play a MMORPG like UO than it does to become "world's best" piano/cello/violin player", a statment that in and of itself is extremely skiewed from reality, it makes me a little sad that there are always going to be, and will continue to swiftly grow, a vast majority of ignorant players who never understood what an MMORPG was supposed to be in the first place: a living, breathing world with detail that mattered and the ability for players of all archetypes to be important and co-exist in the community.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
UO and sandbox games had their shot. If they had dominated the survival of the fitest test for the industry they would be the dominant game types. They did not dominate and the EQ style did. Deal with it.
WoW hit the market place at the right time with the right type of computer system specs. For other companies, where there is a market, someone is going to try to make money off of that market. That is the reason there are so many clones. If UO was the top dog, people would still copy UO, but with a twist. In 10 years WoW will be a thing of the past and we will be talking about the clones of the best game then.
But what really gets me about these threads. No one complains about the clones of sports games and first person shooters.
What if questions are moot. It didn't happen that way so there is no sense in talking about it. It is a waste of time and effort.
I agree. A pointless exercise.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
In the end, I do not find there to be much difference between the "sandbox" and "theme park" games. People act as if they are vastly different experiences.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
What if questions are moot. It didn't happen that way so there is no sense in talking about it. It is a waste of time and effort.
It's a good excercis for your gray matter and an interesting point to discuss.
What is moot is going into threads and simply posting, that the thread is moot, thus wasting your time.
The answer to the OP is very easy and very frightening.
... Simply there wouldn't be anymore PC games (except free to play browser goodies) since 2006 ...
Blizzard single handedly helped survive the much plagued and pirated software of PC gaming.
You would all be playing on consoles.
Was the massive money making of WOW that important in the history of PC gaming?
YES, it clearly was. No one would invest any further in PC gaming because of its pirated status as of 2005/2006. Forget the intrest in MMO's these days: you would ALL be playing Mario#27 as a fantastic liniair jumping game ))
And btw UO was a TERRIBLE game as ... a game, so it would NEVER have gottten further than a handful of players anyway so that wouldn't have helped the PC gaming at all.
Without WoW we would not have the mass of piles of crap that have been released since that time. Without UO we wouldn't have a MMORPG market besides "The Realm".... Do we really want tons of "The Realm" clones? And to say UO was a terrible game is just poor sense of judgement (then again you think WoW is the best thing since prostitution, credibility lost). Player housing, player towns, interactive Seer quests, GM's that actually do their job, US BASED customer support, player vendors, guilds, Factions (Order vs. Chaos), quick ways to teleport from place to place, PVP, dungeons, NO INSTANCES, OPEN WORLD, sailing, etc.... etc..... etc.... How many other games have this complete of a feature set? And do not forget, UO wasn't designed as a game so much as it was a social experiment to show to possibility of gaming creating communities and drawing them together in an online world.
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
Ha you said samething I said goodjob wow has ruined the genre nuff said.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
Ha you said samething I said goodjob wow has ruined the genre nuff said.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
There is nothing hardcore about your definition of "hardcore", or about your "speeling".
Whiners blame WoW, or Blizzard as if it was a evil vindictive conspiracy to destroy their "vision" of what MMO's should be. Whiners should be blaming success, the fail train of corporate greed mongers that want the piece of WoW's success pie that throw out games at break-neck speed that mimic WoW, and players that bitch and moan about wanting their "hardcore" games, but won't fork out more $$$ to counterbalance the lack of subs for their niche game.
It's asinine to rage against a company because they actually put out something "good" that the majority of people enjoy, or against the people who are in the majority. But before you try to be cool by insulting people using the phrase " Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store", yews ah dikchionarie sow yew dount sownd stewpid beecawse mowst peepol whew plaee ememmoh's espeshilie bak en dee old dais taiped vary well... so lirn tew inglish, plz, oar reed won uv dem DUMBIES buks.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
There would hardly be a genre=) I'm not kidding. You think millions of people are interested in UO or any sandbox game. Think again. It would just be a niche genre no one cares about except the D&D nerds who can't even get the nerve to leave their home and RP face to face=)
Ha you said samething I said goodjob wow has ruined the genre nuff said.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
There is nothing hardcore about your definition of "hardcore", or about your "speeling".
Whiners blame WoW, or Blizzard as if it was a evil vindictive conspiracy to destroy their "vision" of what MMO's should be. Whiners should be blaming success, the fail train of corporate greed mongers that want the piece of WoW's success pie that throw out games at break-neck speed that mimic WoW, and players that bitch and moan about wanting their "hardcore" games, but won't fork out more $$$ to counterbalance the lack of subs for their niche game.
"It's asinine to rage against a company because they actually put out something "good" that the majority of people enjoy, or against the people who are in the majority". But before you try to be cool by insulting people using the phrase " Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store", yews ah dikchionarie sow yew dount sownd stewpid beecawse mowst peepol whew plaee ememmoh's espeshilie bak en dee old dais taiped vary well... so lirn tew inglish, plz, oar reed won uv dem DUMBIES buks.
me thinks its good that theres a place for people who wants to yell @nal this @nal that and lol,like never lolled before and they think its roleplaying in its best,i really love that theres a place in this universe for that kind of people @ internet,they really should make WoW2 and WoW4 ,not should,i demand it.
so Blizzard pls show something to world that you are making WoW2 and call your boys back home,becos theres lots of games getting ruined atm.
Back when EQ was king of the mountain, hardcore gamers hated on it as much as they do WoW. Why? Because it was the most popular mmorpg. Now they look back with rose colored glasses and wish for those days back again. It had nothing to do with hardcore elements in game. The genre was still new and they don't have the understanding of themselves to realize that mmorpg s haven't really changed, they have. They charge through content, lvls, equipment, etc., in order to be the best and have gotten so efficient at it that when they reach the top in record time, skipping much of the game content, they start yelling fail.
When they shout WoW clone at every new mmorpg, they aren't talking about game machanics or style most of the time. WoW clone is their code word for lame. This game is lame like WoW is lame for them, so it is a WoW clone. It is a way over used term.
Mmorpg s have evolved over the years into less of a giant time sink and more of an actual game. No more camping one spot for 10 hrs waiting for a rare spawn. Less of a chance that one person can stop game play for everyone by blocking a doorway (a popular move back in the early EQ days when avatars were solid to eachother). No more game quitting issues due to outrageous death consequences (unretrievable corpses, loss of lvls, etc.) The countless hours spent grinding the same monsters over and over because there was no other way to gain lvls, equipment, gold, etc. Hardcore gamers look back at those days and gloss over the frustration they had over these issues. All they remember is that feeling of newness they felt. A new game comes out and you shout, "Been there, done that, FAIL!". Of course you recognize elements of other games in a new game. You've played dozens of mmorpgs in similar genre.
And hating WOW for bringing millions of new gamers to the genre is just ridiculous. It really just shows that you have an elitist attittude. You should be on the ground bowing to the altar of WoW if you love mmorpgs. It made the genre a viable industry causing many new mmorpgs to be created. Now whether YOU don't like the ones created is besides the point. Many people do. You, the hardcore gamer, are still waiting for an mmorpg that gives you that sense of newness and wonder you felt the first time you stepped into a new world and killed you first olthoi, orc, roller rat, etc. It can't happen. Many of us have been playing mmorpgs for 10+ years and the sooner we realize that the industry hasn't "failed" us, we have just become bored with it, the quicker we can stop this search for a mythical holy grail of an mmorpg and enjoy what's out there.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
Too Hardcore for the WoW players-------
So what about the player base that it had before WoW? Why not develop better games to appel to them, rather then targeting WoW players.
This is why I dont see that as an excuse. If the Old School MMOs were better and what the Hardcore crowd wanted, then they would have stayed with it. Why did they move on to Theme Park MMOs?
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
Too Hardcore for the WoW players------- So what about the player base that it had before WoW? Why not develop better games to appel to them, rather then targeting WoW players.
This is why I dont see that as an excuse. If the Old School MMOs were better and what the Hardcore crowd wanted, then they would have stayed with it. Why did they move on to Theme Park MMOs?
It's extremely simple as to why:
A CEO of a corporation is looking over two ideas for MMOs to decide to approve funding for. He can only pick one. He is accountable to the shareholders to make as much profit for them as possible.
Game A is a "themepark MMO" like WoW. It's an easy, quick, addictive gaming experience that keeps players on a treadmill to keep them playing, and paying. It looks like WoW, you know, that hugely successful MMO with '11 million people paying $15 a moth' (we know that's not the truth of it, but the CEO doesn't know that).
Game B is a sandbox MMO that has a steeper learning curve, no clear linear progression, and tends to be more niche and thus appeals to a smaller target audience than game A.
Both games will cost roughly the same in development, and in maintenance, and would charge the same for box fees and monthly fees.
Which of the two do you think the CEO will approve?
There's your answer as to why the 'traditional' MMO gamers are being left in the dust, and all of these WoW clones are being spewed out.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
Too Hardcore for the WoW players-------
So what about the player base that it had before WoW? Why not develop better games to appel to them, rather then targeting WoW players.
This is why I dont see that as an excuse. If the Old School MMOs were better and what the Hardcore crowd wanted, then they would have stayed with it. Why did they move on to Theme Park MMOs?
It's extremely simple as to why:
A CEO of a corporation is looking over two ideas for MMOs to decide to approve funding for. He can only pick one. He is accountable to the shareholders to make as much profit for them as possible.
Game A is a "themepark MMO" like WoW. It's an easy, quick, addictive gaming experience that keeps players on a treadmill to keep them playing, and paying. It looks like WoW, you know, that hugely successful MMO with '11 million people paying $15 a moth' (we know that's not the truth of it, but the CEO doesn't know that).
Game B is a sandbox MMO that has a steeper learning curve, no clear linear progression, and tends to be more niche and thus appeals to a smaller target audience than game A.
Both games will cost roughly the same in development, and in maintenance, and would charge the same for box fees and monthly fees.
Which of the two do you think the CEO will approve?
There's your answer as to why the 'traditional' MMO gamers are being left in the dust, and all of these WoW clones are being spewed out.
That didnt answer anything. Nothing about that is forcing Old School Hardcore players from stop playing their Hardcore sandbox games and moving along to the Theme Park mmos.
Back when EQ was king of the mountain, hardcore gamers hated on it as much as they do WoW. Why? Because it was the most popular mmorpg. Now they look back with rose colored glasses and wish for those days back again. It had nothing to do with hardcore elements in game. The genre was still new and they don't have the understanding of themselves to realize that mmorpg s haven't really changed, they have. They charge through content, lvls, equipment, etc., in order to be the best and have gotten so efficient at it that when they reach the top in record time, skipping much of the game content, they start yelling fail. When they shout WoW clone at every new mmorpg, they aren't talking about game machanics or style most of the time. WoW clone is their code word for lame. This game is lame like WoW is lame for them, so it is a WoW clone. It is a way over used term.
Mmorpg s have evolved over the years into less of a giant time sink and more of an actual game. No more camping one spot for 10 hrs waiting for a rare spawn. Less of a chance that one person can stop game play for everyone by blocking a doorway (a popular move back in the early EQ days when avatars were solid to eachother). No more game quitting issues due to outrageous death consequences (unretrievable corpses, loss of lvls, etc.) The countless hours spent grinding the same monsters over and over because there was no other way to gain lvls, equipment, gold, etc. Hardcore gamers look back at those days and gloss over the frustration they had over these issues. All they remember is that feeling of newness they felt. A new game comes out and you shout, "Been there, done that, FAIL!". Of course you recognize elements of other games in a new game. You've played dozens of mmorpgs in similar genre. And hating WOW for bringing millions of new gamers to the genre is just ridiculous. It really just shows that you have an elitist attittude. You should be on the ground bowing to the altar of WoW if you love mmorpgs. It made the genre a viable industry causing many new mmorpgs to be created. Now whether YOU don't like the ones created is besides the point. Many people do. You, the hardcore gamer, are still waiting for an mmorpg that gives you that sense of newness and wonder you felt the first time you stepped into a new world and killed you first olthoi, orc, roller rat, etc. It can't happen. Many of us have been playing mmorpgs for 10+ years and the sooner we realize that the industry hasn't "failed" us, we have just become bored with it, the quicker we can stop this search for a mythical holy grail of an mmorpg and enjoy what's out there.
QFT
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Back when EQ was king of the mountain, hardcore gamers hated on it as much as they do WoW. Why? Because it was the most popular mmorpg. Now they look back with rose colored glasses and wish for those days back again. It had nothing to do with hardcore elements in game. The genre was still new and they don't have the understanding of themselves to realize that mmorpg s haven't really changed, they have. They charge through content, lvls, equipment, etc., in order to be the best and have gotten so efficient at it that when they reach the top in record time, skipping much of the game content, they start yelling fail. When they shout WoW clone at every new mmorpg, they aren't talking about game machanics or style most of the time. WoW clone is their code word for lame. This game is lame like WoW is lame for them, so it is a WoW clone. It is a way over used term.
Mmorpg s have evolved over the years into less of a giant time sink and more of an actual game. No more camping one spot for 10 hrs waiting for a rare spawn. Less of a chance that one person can stop game play for everyone by blocking a doorway (a popular move back in the early EQ days when avatars were solid to eachother). No more game quitting issues due to outrageous death consequences (unretrievable corpses, loss of lvls, etc.) The countless hours spent grinding the same monsters over and over because there was no other way to gain lvls, equipment, gold, etc. Hardcore gamers look back at those days and gloss over the frustration they had over these issues. All they remember is that feeling of newness they felt. A new game comes out and you shout, "Been there, done that, FAIL!". Of course you recognize elements of other games in a new game. You've played dozens of mmorpgs in similar genre. And hating WOW for bringing millions of new gamers to the genre is just ridiculous. It really just shows that you have an elitist attittude. You should be on the ground bowing to the altar of WoW if you love mmorpgs. It made the genre a viable industry causing many new mmorpgs to be created. Now whether YOU don't like the ones created is besides the point. Many people do. You, the hardcore gamer, are still waiting for an mmorpg that gives you that sense of newness and wonder you felt the first time you stepped into a new world and killed you first olthoi, orc, roller rat, etc. It can't happen. Many of us have been playing mmorpgs for 10+ years and the sooner we realize that the industry hasn't "failed" us, we have just become bored with it, the quicker we can stop this search for a mythical holy grail of an mmorpg and enjoy what's out there.
Hmm I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy me the current MMO's. I liked the time sinks spent in one spot talking to people in your group while you kill. It was never about the grind, it was about socializing which is what MMO's are about.
Back when EQ was king of the mountain, hardcore gamers hated on it as much as they do WoW. Why? Because it was the most popular mmorpg. Now they look back with rose colored glasses and wish for those days back again. It had nothing to do with hardcore elements in game. The genre was still new and they don't have the understanding of themselves to realize that mmorpg s haven't really changed, they have. They charge through content, lvls, equipment, etc., in order to be the best and have gotten so efficient at it that when they reach the top in record time, skipping much of the game content, they start yelling fail. When they shout WoW clone at every new mmorpg, they aren't talking about game machanics or style most of the time. WoW clone is their code word for lame. This game is lame like WoW is lame for them, so it is a WoW clone. It is a way over used term.
Mmorpg s have evolved over the years into less of a giant time sink and more of an actual game. No more camping one spot for 10 hrs waiting for a rare spawn. Less of a chance that one person can stop game play for everyone by blocking a doorway (a popular move back in the early EQ days when avatars were solid to eachother). No more game quitting issues due to outrageous death consequences (unretrievable corpses, loss of lvls, etc.) The countless hours spent grinding the same monsters over and over because there was no other way to gain lvls, equipment, gold, etc. Hardcore gamers look back at those days and gloss over the frustration they had over these issues. All they remember is that feeling of newness they felt. A new game comes out and you shout, "Been there, done that, FAIL!". Of course you recognize elements of other games in a new game. You've played dozens of mmorpgs in similar genre. And hating WOW for bringing millions of new gamers to the genre is just ridiculous. It really just shows that you have an elitist attittude. You should be on the ground bowing to the altar of WoW if you love mmorpgs. It made the genre a viable industry causing many new mmorpgs to be created. Now whether YOU don't like the ones created is besides the point. Many people do. You, the hardcore gamer, are still waiting for an mmorpg that gives you that sense of newness and wonder you felt the first time you stepped into a new world and killed you first olthoi, orc, roller rat, etc. It can't happen. Many of us have been playing mmorpgs for 10+ years and the sooner we realize that the industry hasn't "failed" us, we have just become bored with it, the quicker we can stop this search for a mythical holy grail of an mmorpg and enjoy what's out there.
Hmm I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy me the current MMO's. I liked the time sinks spent in one spot talking to people in your group while you kill. It was never about the grind, it was about socializing which is what MMO's are about.
Good point. Back in the good old days, grind didn't exist. At least, we didn't have that term for it. It was just the way things were. IMO though, socialzing in mmorpgs is alive and well. Time sinks back then may have allowed for more socializing, but I don't see that as being a good enough reason to have to "grind" in one spot for hrs and hrs, whether that be killing mobs or simply sitting there waiting for something to happen. There has to be a balance. I don't see how anyone can look back and think AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, etc., were perfect and now all is lost. Mmoprgs have only gotten better in almost every way. Its just a few hardcore gamers that aren't enlightened enough to see that. The most vocal ones that give the others a bad name. The ones that wear the thickest set of rose colored glasses their oversized heads can bear.
The whole world would have changed, if this was the case. WoW is a part of todays society...I mean, all the people must have had another world view that this could've happened.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
Too Hardcore for the WoW players------- So what about the player base that it had before WoW? Why not develop better games to appel to them, rather then targeting WoW players.
This is why I dont see that as an excuse. If the Old School MMOs were better and what the Hardcore crowd wanted, then they would have stayed with it. Why did they move on to Theme Park MMOs?
It's extremely simple as to why: A CEO of a corporation is looking over two ideas for MMOs to decide to approve funding for. He can only pick one. He is accountable to the shareholders to make as much profit for them as possible. Game A is a "themepark MMO" like WoW. It's an easy, quick, addictive gaming experience that keeps players on a treadmill to keep them playing, and paying. It looks like WoW, you know, that hugely successful MMO with '11 million people paying $15 a moth' (we know that's not the truth of it, but the CEO doesn't know that). Game B is a sandbox MMO that has a steeper learning curve, no clear linear progression, and tends to be more niche and thus appeals to a smaller target audience than game A. Both games will cost roughly the same in development, and in maintenance, and would charge the same for box fees and monthly fees. Which of the two do you think the CEO will approve? There's your answer as to why the 'traditional' MMO gamers are being left in the dust, and all of these WoW clones are being spewed out.
That didnt answer anything. Nothing about that is forcing Old School Hardcore players from stop playing their Hardcore sandbox games and moving along to the Theme Park mmos.
Actually, it does if you extrapolate on the point a little bit.
Realize that decent, hardcore and/or sandbox MMOs simply don't exist anymore because of what I explained. Just as much as new ones aren't being backed by big name developers who would rather try to make yet another WoW clone with hopes of striking it rich, many of the existing ones have been destroyed by their developers making changes to make them 'more accessible' and competitive, basically turning them into themepark MMOs in part, or in full.
SWG is a prime example of a good sandbox MMO turned into crap themepark.
Ultima Online met the same fate, but it's cause was at least not directly because of WoW... but ironically, the lead Dev Tom Chilton ( a.k.a. evocare, a.k.a. Kalgan) who spearheaded fundamentally changing UO from being more of a sandbox, to a themepark type MMO, jumped ship near the end of development of these changes, to join the WoW dev team.
What if questions are moot. It didn't happen that way so there is no sense in talking about it. It is a waste of time and effort.
It's a good excercis for your gray matter and an interesting point to discuss.
What is moot is going into threads and simply posting, that the thread is moot, thus wasting your time.
The answer to the OP is very easy and very frightening.
... Simply there wouldn't be anymore PC games (except free to play browser goodies) since 2006 ...
Blizzard single handedly helped survive the much plagued and pirated software of PC gaming.
You would all be playing on consoles.
Was the massive money making of WOW that important in the history of PC gaming?
YES, it clearly was. No one would invest any further in PC gaming because of its pirated status as of 2005/2006. Forget the intrest in MMO's these days: you would ALL be playing Mario#27 as a fantastic liniair jumping game ))
And btw UO was a TERRIBLE game as ... a game, so it would NEVER have gottten further than a handful of players anyway so that wouldn't have helped the PC gaming at all.
Without WoW we would not have the mass of piles of crap that have been released since that time. Without UO we wouldn't have a MMORPG market besides "The Realm".... Do we really want tons of "The Realm" clones? And to say UO was a terrible game is just poor sense of judgement (then again you think WoW is the best thing since prostitution, credibility lost). Player housing, player towns, interactive Seer quests, GM's that actually do their job, US BASED customer support, player vendors, guilds, Factions (Order vs. Chaos), quick ways to teleport from place to place, PVP, dungeons, NO INSTANCES, OPEN WORLD, sailing, etc.... etc..... etc.... How many other games have this complete of a feature set? And do not forget, UO wasn't designed as a game so much as it was a social experiment to show to possibility of gaming creating communities and drawing them together in an online world.
The mmorpg market was just a matter of time. Muds, various crpgs, AOL's nwn and The Shadow of Yserbius and many others were the learning grounds for it. People were talking about these types of game going back long before mmorpgs came out.
No they wouldnt fuss, because if UO was the top mmorpg, the MMO genre would still be tiny with a small niche playerbase, and thus there simply would never be a bunch of UO clones created by the scramble of companies trying to emulate it for profit.
Comments
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest mmo those would be to hardcore for the wow players.
No. The reason UO is still the best MMO that's been released is because they did something that most developers since haven't bothered with: detail and RP elements. At a base level, all MMORPG's are about playing a role, whether someone wants to create a fictional persona to match their character or not. UO is still a widely played game in emulated and private shards alone because they took the time to develop the little details that by themselves are frivolous, but together create an immersive experience. I'm talking about things like blank books that people could write stories in and pass around, or water pitchers that after you drink from you can refill from another source of water, or even the way the inventory, weight, and item management system works. Look at the crafting system in UO: it allows you to create almost everything in the game, from furniture, to spell scrolls, to the full range of weapons and armor, potions, an enormous range of clothing options, bows and arrows, traps - the list goes on, and on. Designing and customizing a house in UO gave players the freedom to create their own hubs of activity and had nearly endless possibilities with what could be done, simply because the engine allowed players to interact with almost everything. Customizing characters was almost as varied as house design, and it was all detail; none of it reflected on the skills or abilities of the character itself. Most of these things I'm listing aren't even important when you're playing the game from a PvP or a Min/Max perspective, but they're there to give players of a wide range of styles to co-exist in the same world. We don't need several MMORPG's providing several varied experiences for individual archetypes of players, we need one that provides us all the experiences we're looking for. That, in my opinion, is exactly why the MMO market in general is full of titles that rise and fall seemingly over night and why the genre itself needs to seriously reprioritize what they're trying to achieve. It shouldn't be about money, it should be about community and bringing players of all walks of life together.
When I see someone disregard this game as "crap" because it "takes more time to play a MMORPG like UO than it does to become "world's best" piano/cello/violin player", a statment that in and of itself is extremely skiewed from reality, it makes me a little sad that there are always going to be, and will continue to swiftly grow, a vast majority of ignorant players who never understood what an MMORPG was supposed to be in the first place: a living, breathing world with detail that mattered and the ability for players of all archetypes to be important and co-exist in the community.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
UO and sandbox games had their shot. If they had dominated the survival of the fitest test for the industry they would be the dominant game types. They did not dominate and the EQ style did. Deal with it.
WoW hit the market place at the right time with the right type of computer system specs. For other companies, where there is a market, someone is going to try to make money off of that market. That is the reason there are so many clones. If UO was the top dog, people would still copy UO, but with a twist. In 10 years WoW will be a thing of the past and we will be talking about the clones of the best game then.
But what really gets me about these threads. No one complains about the clones of sports games and first person shooters.
I agree. A pointless exercise.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
In the end, I do not find there to be much difference between the "sandbox" and "theme park" games. People act as if they are vastly different experiences.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
It's a good excercis for your gray matter and an interesting point to discuss.
What is moot is going into threads and simply posting, that the thread is moot, thus wasting your time.
The answer to the OP is very easy and very frightening.
... Simply there wouldn't be anymore PC games (except free to play browser goodies) since 2006 ...
Blizzard single handedly helped survive the much plagued and pirated software of PC gaming.
You would all be playing on consoles.
Was the massive money making of WOW that important in the history of PC gaming?
YES, it clearly was. No one would invest any further in PC gaming because of its pirated status as of 2005/2006. Forget the intrest in MMO's these days: you would ALL be playing Mario#27 as a fantastic liniair jumping game
))
And btw UO was a TERRIBLE game as ... a game, so it would NEVER have gottten further than a handful of players anyway so that wouldn't have helped the PC gaming at all.
Without WoW we would not have the mass of piles of crap that have been released since that time. Without UO we wouldn't have a MMORPG market besides "The Realm".... Do we really want tons of "The Realm" clones? And to say UO was a terrible game is just poor sense of judgement (then again you think WoW is the best thing since prostitution, credibility lost). Player housing, player towns, interactive Seer quests, GM's that actually do their job, US BASED customer support, player vendors, guilds, Factions (Order vs. Chaos), quick ways to teleport from place to place, PVP, dungeons, NO INSTANCES, OPEN WORLD, sailing, etc.... etc..... etc.... How many other games have this complete of a feature set? And do not forget, UO wasn't designed as a game so much as it was a social experiment to show to possibility of gaming creating communities and drawing them together in an online world.
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
Ha you said samething I said goodjob wow has ruined the genre nuff said.
If wow never came out the mmo genre woudn't be ruined like it is now. Wow has destroyed any hope of ever having another daoc or everquest .Mmos like those would be to hardcore for the wow players. Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store and since it sold so well everyone is trying to make the next wow not eq so the genre is gone to the way side of almost being as casul as playing halo 3 on xbox live,Also fanboys dont say wow is hardcore you have no clue what hardcore is or what a hard is.
There is nothing hardcore about your definition of "hardcore", or about your "speeling".
Whiners blame WoW, or Blizzard as if it was a evil vindictive conspiracy to destroy their "vision" of what MMO's should be. Whiners should be blaming success, the fail train of corporate greed mongers that want the piece of WoW's success pie that throw out games at break-neck speed that mimic WoW, and players that bitch and moan about wanting their "hardcore" games, but won't fork out more $$$ to counterbalance the lack of subs for their niche game.
It's asinine to rage against a company because they actually put out something "good" that the majority of people enjoy, or against the people who are in the majority. But before you try to be cool by insulting people using the phrase " Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store", yews ah dikchionarie sow yew dount sownd stewpid beecawse mowst peepol whew plaee ememmoh's espeshilie bak en dee old dais taiped vary well... so lirn tew inglish, plz, oar reed won uv dem DUMBIES buks.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
There would hardly be a genre=) I'm not kidding. You think millions of people are interested in UO or any sandbox game. Think again. It would just be a niche genre no one cares about except the D&D nerds who can't even get the nerve to leave their home and RP face to face=)
There is nothing hardcore about your definition of "hardcore", or about your "speeling".
Whiners blame WoW, or Blizzard as if it was a evil vindictive conspiracy to destroy their "vision" of what MMO's should be. Whiners should be blaming success, the fail train of corporate greed mongers that want the piece of WoW's success pie that throw out games at break-neck speed that mimic WoW, and players that bitch and moan about wanting their "hardcore" games, but won't fork out more $$$ to counterbalance the lack of subs for their niche game.
"It's asinine to rage against a company because they actually put out something "good" that the majority of people enjoy, or against the people who are in the majority". But before you try to be cool by insulting people using the phrase " Wow is like one of the FOR DUMBIES books you see in the store", yews ah dikchionarie sow yew dount sownd stewpid beecawse mowst peepol whew plaee ememmoh's espeshilie bak en dee old dais taiped vary well... so lirn tew inglish, plz, oar reed won uv dem DUMBIES buks.
me thinks its good that theres a place for people who wants to yell @nal this @nal that and lol,like never lolled before and they think its roleplaying in its best,i really love that theres a place in this universe for that kind of people @ internet,they really should make WoW2 and WoW4 ,not should,i demand it.
so Blizzard pls show something to world that you are making WoW2 and call your boys back home,becos theres lots of games getting ruined atm.
Generation P
Back when EQ was king of the mountain, hardcore gamers hated on it as much as they do WoW. Why? Because it was the most popular mmorpg. Now they look back with rose colored glasses and wish for those days back again. It had nothing to do with hardcore elements in game. The genre was still new and they don't have the understanding of themselves to realize that mmorpg s haven't really changed, they have. They charge through content, lvls, equipment, etc., in order to be the best and have gotten so efficient at it that when they reach the top in record time, skipping much of the game content, they start yelling fail.
When they shout WoW clone at every new mmorpg, they aren't talking about game machanics or style most of the time. WoW clone is their code word for lame. This game is lame like WoW is lame for them, so it is a WoW clone. It is a way over used term.
Mmorpg s have evolved over the years into less of a giant time sink and more of an actual game. No more camping one spot for 10 hrs waiting for a rare spawn. Less of a chance that one person can stop game play for everyone by blocking a doorway (a popular move back in the early EQ days when avatars were solid to eachother). No more game quitting issues due to outrageous death consequences (unretrievable corpses, loss of lvls, etc.) The countless hours spent grinding the same monsters over and over because there was no other way to gain lvls, equipment, gold, etc. Hardcore gamers look back at those days and gloss over the frustration they had over these issues. All they remember is that feeling of newness they felt. A new game comes out and you shout, "Been there, done that, FAIL!". Of course you recognize elements of other games in a new game. You've played dozens of mmorpgs in similar genre.
And hating WOW for bringing millions of new gamers to the genre is just ridiculous. It really just shows that you have an elitist attittude. You should be on the ground bowing to the altar of WoW if you love mmorpgs. It made the genre a viable industry causing many new mmorpgs to be created. Now whether YOU don't like the ones created is besides the point. Many people do. You, the hardcore gamer, are still waiting for an mmorpg that gives you that sense of newness and wonder you felt the first time you stepped into a new world and killed you first olthoi, orc, roller rat, etc. It can't happen. Many of us have been playing mmorpgs for 10+ years and the sooner we realize that the industry hasn't "failed" us, we have just become bored with it, the quicker we can stop this search for a mythical holy grail of an mmorpg and enjoy what's out there.
Too Hardcore for the WoW players-------
So what about the player base that it had before WoW? Why not develop better games to appel to them, rather then targeting WoW players.
This is why I dont see that as an excuse. If the Old School MMOs were better and what the Hardcore crowd wanted, then they would have stayed with it. Why did they move on to Theme Park MMOs?
It's extremely simple as to why:
A CEO of a corporation is looking over two ideas for MMOs to decide to approve funding for. He can only pick one. He is accountable to the shareholders to make as much profit for them as possible.
Game A is a "themepark MMO" like WoW. It's an easy, quick, addictive gaming experience that keeps players on a treadmill to keep them playing, and paying. It looks like WoW, you know, that hugely successful MMO with '11 million people paying $15 a moth' (we know that's not the truth of it, but the CEO doesn't know that).
Game B is a sandbox MMO that has a steeper learning curve, no clear linear progression, and tends to be more niche and thus appeals to a smaller target audience than game A.
Both games will cost roughly the same in development, and in maintenance, and would charge the same for box fees and monthly fees.
Which of the two do you think the CEO will approve?
There's your answer as to why the 'traditional' MMO gamers are being left in the dust, and all of these WoW clones are being spewed out.
Too Hardcore for the WoW players-------
So what about the player base that it had before WoW? Why not develop better games to appel to them, rather then targeting WoW players.
This is why I dont see that as an excuse. If the Old School MMOs were better and what the Hardcore crowd wanted, then they would have stayed with it. Why did they move on to Theme Park MMOs?
It's extremely simple as to why:
A CEO of a corporation is looking over two ideas for MMOs to decide to approve funding for. He can only pick one. He is accountable to the shareholders to make as much profit for them as possible.
Game A is a "themepark MMO" like WoW. It's an easy, quick, addictive gaming experience that keeps players on a treadmill to keep them playing, and paying. It looks like WoW, you know, that hugely successful MMO with '11 million people paying $15 a moth' (we know that's not the truth of it, but the CEO doesn't know that).
Game B is a sandbox MMO that has a steeper learning curve, no clear linear progression, and tends to be more niche and thus appeals to a smaller target audience than game A.
Both games will cost roughly the same in development, and in maintenance, and would charge the same for box fees and monthly fees.
Which of the two do you think the CEO will approve?
There's your answer as to why the 'traditional' MMO gamers are being left in the dust, and all of these WoW clones are being spewed out.
That didnt answer anything. Nothing about that is forcing Old School Hardcore players from stop playing their Hardcore sandbox games and moving along to the Theme Park mmos.
QFT
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Hmm I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy me the current MMO's. I liked the time sinks spent in one spot talking to people in your group while you kill. It was never about the grind, it was about socializing which is what MMO's are about.
Hmm I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy me the current MMO's. I liked the time sinks spent in one spot talking to people in your group while you kill. It was never about the grind, it was about socializing which is what MMO's are about.
Good point. Back in the good old days, grind didn't exist. At least, we didn't have that term for it. It was just the way things were. IMO though, socialzing in mmorpgs is alive and well. Time sinks back then may have allowed for more socializing, but I don't see that as being a good enough reason to have to "grind" in one spot for hrs and hrs, whether that be killing mobs or simply sitting there waiting for something to happen. There has to be a balance. I don't see how anyone can look back and think AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, etc., were perfect and now all is lost. Mmoprgs have only gotten better in almost every way. Its just a few hardcore gamers that aren't enlightened enough to see that. The most vocal ones that give the others a bad name. The ones that wear the thickest set of rose colored glasses their oversized heads can bear.
The whole world would have changed, if this was the case. WoW is a part of todays society...I mean, all the people must have had another world view that this could've happened.
Of course, people like to bitch. Give someone a $50 and they would bitch they didn't get a $100.
Actually, it does if you extrapolate on the point a little bit.
Realize that decent, hardcore and/or sandbox MMOs simply don't exist anymore because of what I explained. Just as much as new ones aren't being backed by big name developers who would rather try to make yet another WoW clone with hopes of striking it rich, many of the existing ones have been destroyed by their developers making changes to make them 'more accessible' and competitive, basically turning them into themepark MMOs in part, or in full.
SWG is a prime example of a good sandbox MMO turned into crap themepark.
Ultima Online met the same fate, but it's cause was at least not directly because of WoW... but ironically, the lead Dev Tom Chilton ( a.k.a. evocare, a.k.a. Kalgan) who spearheaded fundamentally changing UO from being more of a sandbox, to a themepark type MMO, jumped ship near the end of development of these changes, to join the WoW dev team.
It's a good excercis for your gray matter and an interesting point to discuss.
What is moot is going into threads and simply posting, that the thread is moot, thus wasting your time.
The answer to the OP is very easy and very frightening.
... Simply there wouldn't be anymore PC games (except free to play browser goodies) since 2006 ...
Blizzard single handedly helped survive the much plagued and pirated software of PC gaming.
You would all be playing on consoles.
Was the massive money making of WOW that important in the history of PC gaming?
YES, it clearly was. No one would invest any further in PC gaming because of its pirated status as of 2005/2006. Forget the intrest in MMO's these days: you would ALL be playing Mario#27 as a fantastic liniair jumping game
))
And btw UO was a TERRIBLE game as ... a game, so it would NEVER have gottten further than a handful of players anyway so that wouldn't have helped the PC gaming at all.
Without WoW we would not have the mass of piles of crap that have been released since that time. Without UO we wouldn't have a MMORPG market besides "The Realm".... Do we really want tons of "The Realm" clones? And to say UO was a terrible game is just poor sense of judgement (then again you think WoW is the best thing since prostitution, credibility lost). Player housing, player towns, interactive Seer quests, GM's that actually do their job, US BASED customer support, player vendors, guilds, Factions (Order vs. Chaos), quick ways to teleport from place to place, PVP, dungeons, NO INSTANCES, OPEN WORLD, sailing, etc.... etc..... etc.... How many other games have this complete of a feature set? And do not forget, UO wasn't designed as a game so much as it was a social experiment to show to possibility of gaming creating communities and drawing them together in an online world.
The mmorpg market was just a matter of time. Muds, various crpgs, AOL's nwn and The Shadow of Yserbius and many others were the learning grounds for it. People were talking about these types of game going back long before mmorpgs came out.
if they sucked. yes.
No they wouldnt fuss, because if UO was the top mmorpg, the MMO genre would still be tiny with a small niche playerbase, and thus there simply would never be a bunch of UO clones created by the scramble of companies trying to emulate it for profit.