How to improve pve in mmo's

metalhead980

Improving the pve leveling experience:

Currently in a mmo we have around a thousand quests or missions in game that make up the bulk of the pve experience.

While I think it's fantastic that we have that many quests in game they still have that "side quest" feeling to them.

I've been playing a lot of single player Rpgs lately (mostly Mass Effect) and I wonder how a MMO would be if we also had a main storyline to follow. Some really massive, epic storyline with cinematics and morally gray choices that bend and twist your storyline to the point of your personal adventure being unique to you.  Something that lasts from level one to level cap.

Now before the sandbox guys/gals have my head for typing that keep in mind that a storyline like this gives a player choice on how they want to progress. this wouldnt just be zone to zone progression you would get to pick through difficult decisions, you have the say in how YOU want to deal with this thing.  Of course mmos could keep the side quests, hunting and dungeon mechanics to give the game depth.

 

Improving the high level pve experience:

Right now mmos are notorious for having some carrot on the stick, cock block mechanic at high levels to keep people playing. This cock block is usually a Item farm using a raid lock out timer mechanic or some faction farm that once completed a new faction is created that you need to farm all over again. Let us not forget about the newest cock block the title or achievement farm.

Well how do we get around this? how do we make a not so repetitive endgame that will still hold people to the game for an extended period of time?

If we took away the item farm, the factions and achievements/titles what would we have?probably not much of a mmo, so lets try to fix them

Ok, lets tackle these one at a time.

The item farm. We all know how shitty it is to farm the same god damn set of dungeons for armor sets or tokens. Lets take the armor sets and tookens out of the dungeons, lets make dungeons less static, lets scale the dungeons.  Lets scale the dungeon to the amount of players running it, from 3 to 20+ lets randomize the mobs so pulls are different lets create 20+ boss encounters but only have 3 spawn in at a time to keep the dungeon fresh, lets remove static loot tables. Lets add quest givers outside and inside the dungeons. randomize the quest givers inside the dungeons (these wouldnt give your armor set) one day you can find a escort Npc and the next a Npc asking you to find a rare item.

Lets take a page from the new leveling experience and add in a epic adventure that leads you into that dungeon for your armor set. this would be a long, epic chain with cinematics and choices (like Bioware rpgs).

The goal is to not make it repetitive but still keep people wanting to experience this content over and over again.

 

Factions! Lets fix this. I hate running shitty collection quests to raise faction standing. I hate raising faction standing in general. Lets make a faction less grindy, lets have them have a true storyline. These guys/gals have a issue and you need to fix it. You arent running the same repeatable quests over and over you dealing with a problem they have in one epic storyline. As you progress maybe they give you stuff but it isnt a farm its more about the story and watching it unfold and maybe leading to more epic arcs within that faction or with a sister faction.

I know it sounds like a quest grind but honestly its a lot better than handing in bundles of items or wearing a stupid tabard in a dungeon.

 

Titles/Achievements. Well I dont normally have an issue with these as long as these mechanics are optional. keep them as something extra to do and they can add a lot to the game. My problem is when a game adds abilities and spells to the achievements. doing this forces a player to complete them *Looks at Lotro*.

Keep them optional and add a bit of variety and im fine.

 

Well guys thats all I have. maybe you can add more. I'm just sick and tired of mmos having crappy repetitive gameplay. I want the pve content to feel epic and not just something that was placed in game to keep me subscribed.

 

What do you guys think and maybe you could add something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comnitus

Star Wars: The Old Republic.

As far as the dungeons, I like your ideas.

I also want to add that I prefer Runescape's quests to any other MMO out there right now, except possibly SW:TOR if it delivers. Why? They're not Kill X, FedEx, Find My Lost Teddy Bear, Go Talk to My Lonely Grandma, or Search Through the Mud to Find My $1 Bill quests. They're actual... well... quests. They take preparation, you have to know what to do once you start them (very little guidance, especially for the harder quests... unless you look at a walkthrough, which is optional), you can mess up, you can die (and lose your equipment), and it can be frustrating at times. But you really get an epic feeling when you complete them (again, more so with the harder quests). WoW attempted to have some "epic" quests with Wrath, and I'll admit, I did like a few of them. Especially when you first enter Icecrown and you have to defend the Argent Crusade's outpost against the Scourge.

PvE is okay in its current form, but, like everything, it could use improvement.

 

metalhead980

Originally posted by Comnitus


Star Wars: The Old Republic.
As far as the dungeons, I like your ideas.
I also want to add that I prefer Runescape's quests to any other MMO out there right now, except possibly SW:TOR if it delivers. Why? They're not Kill X, FedEx, Find My Lost Teddy Bear, Go Talk to My Lonely Grandma, or Search Through the Mud to Find My $1 Bill quests. They're actual... well... quests. They take preparation, you have to know what to do once you start them (very little guidance, especially for the harder quests... unless you look at a walkthrough, which is optional), you can mess up, you can die (and lose your equipment), and it can be frustrating at times. But you really get an epic feeling when you complete them (again, more so with the harder quests). WoW attempted to have some "epic" quests with Wrath, and I'll admit, I did like a few of them. Especially when you first enter Icecrown and you have to defend the Argent Crusade's outpost against the Scourge.
PvE is okay in its current form, but, like everything, it could use improvement.
 

Yeah TOR seems to be getting the whole Rpg flavor into this game for the leveling atleast. I have no idea how the endgame will play out.

 

Papadam

Skirmishes in LotrO seems like a step in that direction.

RavZterz

What happened to your blue words?

And what would be cool is if GMs were more active in games like they used to be years ago and could set up the story in real time with massive events..but that would require them to log on more then once a week.

metalhead980

Originally posted by Ravik


What happened to your blue words?
And what would be cool is if GMs were more active in games like they used to be years ago and could set up the story in real time with massive events..but that would require them to log on more then once a week.

 

I stopped using the blue text and font since people were having a hardtime reading my posts.

I do agree with you the GM ran events would be awesome. Ryzom still does this but sadly the game is low population so events only happen every couple months.

I don't know if those events would work in more heavily populated games like WoW or possibly TOR. THey might crash a server lol.

 

Added some blue text just for you bud

SgtFrog

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Ravik


What happened to your blue words?
And what would be cool is if GMs were more active in games like they used to be years ago and could set up the story in real time with massive events..but that would require them to log on more then once a week.

 

I stopped using the blue text and font since people were having a hardtime reading my posts.

I do agree with you the GM ran events would be awesome. Ryzom still does this but sadly the game is low population so events only happen every couple months.

I don't know if those events would work in more heavily populated games like WoW or possibly TOR. THey might crash a server lol.

 

Added some blue text just for you bud

 

the blue text must never die O_O

UknownAspect

Good post, interesting ideas.  I have some questions for you and others though.  I noticed you mentioned that a sandbox lovers might jump all over you, but I don't believe that a really good story and a sandbox are mutually exclusive.  In fact I think some of the games out there with great stories could add sandbox elements at end game to really get rid of that "themepark style" hit cap and grind gear, rep, and achievements.

 

So what would people think if there was a game that delivered incredibly rich story with player decision making and problem solving to introduce you to the game's setting and lore.  But then after hitting cap, it would open up to a large world  with player controlled land, fortresses, trade routes, pirates, and other sandbox features where players were in control.  But there would also be zones (after cap) to continue the story, add raids and dungeons that would instead of yeilding powerful items, would give these players materials to trade and sell or use to produce weapons and items for player housing and transportation etc. etc.

 

Would you guys like something that fused these elements together?

Ihmotepp

Although SWTOR looks like it might be fun, I'd rather see a game with ZERO quests.

That's right, not one single quest, NO XP for doing anything for an NPC.

Instead, NPC's would give you information on how the world works, and what you can do to implement changes in the game world.

For example, Zombies patrol the road from A to B. they come from a nearby graveyard. If you Kill the boss Mob Zombie master in the graveyard, no more zombies on the road, travel is easier.

However, another NPC will tell you how to collect certain materials, combine them, and create a potion you can use to Create a zombie Master in the graveyard. If you do, he will begin to raise zombies, and they will patrol the road.

It's not a quest. you don't get any xtra XP for doing this, one way or another.

The NPC doesn't want you to destroy the Zombie MAster, doesn't want you to create teh Zombie Master. That is YOUR choice, not some errand you are running for an NPC.

The xp comes from the usual killing mobs, but the "quests" are replaced by things you decide to do in the game, not being a lackey for an NPC.

Also you could enable PvP in a way that players can not only decide these objectives for themselves, but also fight over them. You LIKE zombies wandering the road ? Stop any player from killing the Zombie master.

Don't like zombies wandering the road? Stop any player from collecting the special materials needed to create a Zombie master.

Add hundreds of these sorts of features into the game, and let players turn the world into waht they want. Construct bridges, tear them down, control dungeons, build pyramids that give you the ability to summon undead, tear them down, stuff like that.

 

Scottc

www.destructoid.com/blogs/Azure

Read this op.

metalhead980

Originally posted by UknownAspect


Good post, interesting ideas.  I have some questions for you and others though.  I noticed you mentioned that a sandbox lovers might jump all over you, but I don't believe that a really good story and a sandbox are mutually exclusive.  In fact I think some of the games out there with great stories could add sandbox elements at end game to really get rid of that "themepark style" hit cap and grind gear, rep, and achievements.
Most sandbox fans consider long quest chains "hand holding". their right if the quest chain is required to progress. In most sandbox games quests are like little jobs, you do them for in game currency and thats it. Their totally optional. For someone like me (a sandbox fanatic) to suggest a somewhat linear progression in a game could get me some heat.
 
So what would people think if there was a game that delivered incredibly rich story with player decision making and problem solving to introduce you to the game's setting and lore.  But then after hitting cap, it would open up to a large world  with player controlled land, fortresses, trade routes, pirates, and other sandbox features where players were in control.  But there would also be zones (after cap) to continue the story, add raids and dungeons that would instead of yeilding powerful items, would give these players materials to trade and sell or use to produce weapons and items for player housing and transportation etc. etc.
 
Would you guys like something that fused these elements together?

What you described is called a "Hybrid" mmo. we have yet to see the evolution of the true Hybrid mmo. I have a strong feeling that Hybrids will find their stride once Blizzard creates their next MMO.

Yes I just said Blizzard will create the next hybrid. Before I get flamed lets think about it for a second. How will Blizzard release a MMO that doesnt directly take from WoWs subscriber base? By creating something that focuses on a different community (sandbox) while still keeping elements that will keep new players into the genre (themepark).

Hybrid MMO would be perfect for them and it will open other AAA companies eyes.

 

I think I just killed my own thread with the Blizzard comment lol.

arctarus

Lets take a leveling pve mmo for example.

In short it consists of, quests, crafting, raid, rep grind. That's all i can think of right off my mind.

Looking at these 4 things, though you can expand them in their own way, still really didn't offer anything new.

To improve a pve mmo, i believe devs need to come up something new apart from these standard formula...

 

 

Capn23

Originally posted by Scottc


www.destructoid.com/blogs/Azure
Read this op.

 

That was incredible...I'm seriously speechless.

 

I WANT THAT!

metalhead980

Originally posted by arctarus


Lets take a leveling pve mmo for example.
In short it consists of, quests, crafting, raid, rep grind. That's all i can think of right off my mind.
Looking at these 4 things, though you can expand them in their own way, still really didn't offer anything new.
To improve a pve mmo, i believe devs need to come up something new apart from these standard formula...
 
 

As more and more mmos release you see raids while leveling turn into just entry level dungeons and rep grinds have all but been forgotten while leveling.

When It comes to questing like I said it all feels like side missions (fluff) We need a main story, something epic and involving.

If you have any ideas on what you would add to leveling please add to the thread. I was hoping people would have a few Ideas we could discuss.

 

Nebless

I like the main story arc where your choices matter.  Only problem would be trying to write those AND normal quests.  The dev time would be massive! LOL

So get rid of the normal quests;  Every toon starts out neutral, you have the one story arc and at certain spots you have a choice to make; help the good guys or bad guys, you pick you branch off, etc... for each fork in the road.  Those fork spots are what would push you towards your good guy / bad guy faction rep. 

Maybe some forks would be the lessor of two evils; kill 10 hostages to ensure the evil mastermind dies or try to rescue them and have the guy escape. 

You could backslide on your rep like the one Dirty Harry movie where the young cops have taken justice into their own hands and are killing bad guys.  Hey the bad guys need to be punished no question there but do you do it or let the courts?

Would make you think and give you replay value.  Harder to write than normal quests?  Yea but oh so much more worth it

metalhead980

Originally posted by Nebless


I like the main story arc where your choices matter.  Only problem would be trying to write those AND normal quests.  The dev time would be massive! LOL
So get rid of the normal quests;  Every toon starts out neutral, you have the one story arc and at certain spots you have a choice to make; help the good guys or bad guys, you pick you branch off, etc... for each fork in the road.  Those fork spots are what would push you towards your good guy / bad guy faction rep. 
Maybe some forks would be the lessor of two evils; kill 10 hostages to ensure the evil mastermind dies or try to rescue them and have the guy escape. 
You could backslide on your rep like the one Dirty Harry movie where the young cops have taken justice into their own hands and are killing bad guys.  Hey the bad guys need to be punished no question there but do you do it or let the courts?
Would make you think and give you replay value.  Harder to write than normal quests?  Yea but oh so much more worth it

THat's a pretty cool idea with the factions being tied into the main storyline.

Would you make is as obvious as good and evil? or would we go with a little depth and make some morally gray decisions. maybe like four factions.

this would put an interesting spin on faction play. instead of just starting a new epic arc for a faction at the endgame you could set that up from day one and expand the main arc with those choices. This may even keep the sandbox guys/gals happy.

Good post.

Nebless

Originally posted by metalhead980


 

THat's a pretty cool idea with the factions being tied into the main storyline.

Would you make is as obvious as good and evil? or would we go with a little depth and make some morally gray decisions. maybe like four factions.

this would put an interesting spin on faction play. instead of just starting a new epic arc for a faction at the endgame you could set that up from day one and expand the main arc with those choices. This may even keep the sandbox guys/gals happy.

Good post.

I just used good and bad as base examples.  In SWG it'd be Imp / Reb / Neutral.  PotBS: Brit / French / Spanish / Pirate and so forth.  Figured going really broad would make it easier to understand.

Thanks