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Dumbed down means the developers telling you how a game works? Eh?
Josher
Member Posts: 2,818
I never undertood how far some people take this DUMB term=) I was browsing some Dragon Age threads and the infamous description came up. It was followed by, "and of course the game informs you that the spell can cause friendly fire...SO DUMBED DOWN." He went on about the tool tips as well and how that dumbs it all down as well. You should have to figure out what Strength does or what the general value of an item is? WHAT?? This is the same song and dance that goes on here, which got me thinking. If the game explains how a spell or an ability works, its DUMB? If the developer gives you any explaination for anything it seems lots of people think thats actually dumbing it all down, because GUESSING and using trial and error for something that should obviouisly be known by the player makes the game better?
As a veteran gamer, I must be out of touch;) I must be stupid for expecting developers to explain how the game works, hehe. TO me Its LAZY when a developer doesn't bother. All it does is force me to go to an FAQ in the end which is the worst thing I'd ever want to do. Wasting time guessing or figuring something out 50% through the game that I should've known in the first hour doesn't make me feel SMART. It makes me feel stupid or cheated for wasting my time. I guess I'm too old to find any satisfaction in figuring things out when they should be obvious. When I was 12, I might've thought I was smart for realizing that a certain spell actually slows me down when I'd have no idea otherwise. Now, I just want to know how a spell or ability works. GUESSING isn't fun and a game isn't dumbed down for telling me. Its just more intuitive. Its just the way its supposed to be.
Thats not to say I want the game to tell me the answer to a quest or EXACTLY where I'm supposed to go. But if I need to talk to someone specific, I should have a clue as to where he is. A quest that says, "Simon needs this letter." But you have to figure out Simon is actually in another city in the corner of a bar and he's only there at a specific time...thats NOT fun or smart. Thats STUPID. The game should tell you where he is, because obviously if someone wanted a letter delivered, that person would have a clue and should tell you;)
Comments
Josher that was a good rant!
Didn't know you had it in you.
Ehh honestly I don't think Good tutorials and solid information on missions is dumbing things down.
Imo dumbing down is giving people awesome rewards from very little accomplished in the game. Like handing Top tier raid items to people that just run smaller player dungeons.
Eliminating a pvp ladder system that normally would take a player months of dedication to recieve rewards and turning it into a personal point collection mechanic where you can get those same items in 1/10th the time.
That's dumbing down not giving people information on how the game works and stuff.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Was that an allusion at WoW? Because, you still need a few months to get all arena rewards, unless you're at Gladiator rating, and even then it takes at least 2 months. Oh, and in arena, you actually have to use relfexes, your mind and have a good partner. In battlegrounds you just had to grind for 15h+ hours. For me, first seems...harder.
Was that an allusion at WoW? Because, you still need a few months to get all arena rewards, unless you're at Gladiator rating, and even then it takes at least 2 months.
I usually use WoW as an example because Everyone could understand me since most have played it.
Yes I agree the arena title is pretty hardcore its the entry level stuff (battlegrounds) that have been made incredibly easy. Remember Vanilla WoW it took a while just to get a blue pvp set lol.
Blizz is fixing that with rated BGs though.
Also another example of dumbing down in WoW would be making raid content easier after the hardcore guilds grabbed world firsts so the regular population could actually try it.
Things like this arent needed imo.
Other games do this as well, like I said its just easier to bring up WoW. If I spoke of VG or AO mechanics being turned to shit most wouldnt understand.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
That is just silly. We are talking about games here.
The only reason why players need months to get anything in the old days is because there is a lack of resources to create those things. If there are more developer resources now to create the reward, there is no reason rewards need to space out so much.
Was that an allusion at WoW? Because, you still need a few months to get all arena rewards, unless you're at Gladiator rating, and even then it takes at least 2 months.
I usually use WoW as an example because Everyone could understand me since most have played it.
Yes I agree the arena title is pretty hardcore its the entry level stuff (battlegrounds) that have been made incredibly easy. Remember Vanilla WoW it took a while just to get a blue pvp set lol.
Blizz is fixing that with rated BGs though.
Also another example of dumbing down in WoW would be making raid content easier after the hardcore guilds grabbed world firsts so the regular population could actually try it.
Things like this arent needed imo.
Other games do this as well, like I said its just easier to bring up WoW. If I spoke of VG or AO mechanics being turned to shit most wouldnt understand.
Well...it's 2009. You can no longer have the old MMORPG mindset. MMORPGs are supposed to be more...open-minded these days(especially since they aren't the brightest genre, let's face it...they're total shit compared to other genres).
I think Blizzard did it well...they just reduced the time of getting starter PvP gear. The essence is the same tho, you still spam the same abilities like you did back then in battlegrounds. Arena is a whole different story and is probably the hardest aspect in WoW(to gain Glad or #1 battlegroup-wide) and it does take a lot of time, some would say even more than old BG grind.
They did dumped down overall raid progression very hard though, but again...it's 2009.
If WoW had the same 5% raiding playerbase like in Vanilla/BC, its future wouldn't have been so bright.
So whats smarter about taking 6 months to achieve something that should take 2 months? In a month or 2 it can still be FUN. In 6 months, it just turns into a tedious, massive time sink that feels like work. A GAME isn't supposed to be work right? Or is it=)
Some people like having things to work for in a mmo.
As an example It was much more satisfying for me to complete the thunderfury quest line for my Legendary than just having it drop like a regular epic like the Swords in BT.
It makes it kinda special imo.
Nothing wrong with wanting something like that not everything needs to be suited to the 5 hour a week crowd.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
As a long-loong time gamer I can see the point Josher is making, and it's a good one.
I disagree with other posters that dumbing things down means making it easy to get 'raid level l00t' doing other tasks. Not all of us have the time/energy/interest-in-following-orders to do what they call 'raiding'.
Dumbing a game down is most commonly referring to 'consolising' an already established PC game, which requires various controls and commands to get things done, and shoving the final effect into one or two button presses on a console controller.
In the case of MMORPGs I would say that dumbing a game down would be removing the requirement to develop the knowledge and skills that mean you can perform fantastic effects by just slapping it into one command on a toolbar, and then telling everyone exactly what it is.
In my opinion (and there is no such thing as a humble opinion) there should be plenty in a game for everyone to enjoy, but those who have practiced and learned methods by which to perform actions that bit better should be able to stand out. It should never be about who was lucky enough to pick up the 'l00t' or who has 'raided' the most (hate that term), it should be about skill.
In single-player (or multiplayer but not massive) terms a made-up example of dumbing down a game would be taking a game like System Shock 2, with it's different choices (which you have to live with) in electronics, hacking, implants of different types, etc and replacing it with a simple slot-latest-item-from-inventory-into-character method. The former involves you having to make the choice of what path you're going to take and how you can mix it up to produce your best playstyle, and how you have to approach different puzzles - the latter involves you going around hitting enough stuff until the best item that you can get drops so you can slot it into the ONE set of 'enhancements' you can get.
Alright, the example isn't perfect, but I hope it got the point across.
That is just silly. We are talking about games here.
The only reason why players need months to get anything in the old days is because there is a lack of resources to create those things. If there are more developer resources now to create the reward, there is no reason rewards need to space out so much.
Games can't have hard to achieve rewards? I'm sorry but not everything needs to be handed to someone due to player activity.
If im casual I have no issue with playing for 5-10 hours a week and taking a few months to get something awesome.
WoW even does this with certain achievements. Noone bitches.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
it´s 2009, we supposed to have all kinds of games to cater all play styles, not just a bunch of "copycats" that catter to an audience of new "non-gamers" and forgets the old ones that gave time and money in the past.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
This has always been a funny topic for me. If you don;t like taking orders and don't really like raiding then why should you get raid level gear? Certainly you don;t need it for solo questing, Pvp has different rewards so thats not the reason.
I found nothing wrong with casual players that didnt enjoy raiding to just get blue gear. You really dont need anything else if you only adventuring.
Players get raid gear to keep raiding, whats the point in getting it if you dont like raiding?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I agree OP. Some people have a warped view of the true definition of some well used phrases and words, in order to suit their own skewed perception of what they want. It's like claiming suspension dumbs down the experience of driving a car whereby its "easymode". Other misused phrases are "WoW Clone" and "Innovation".
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I think the OP is wrong. The idea of removing numerical data from the tooltips, is to make it safe for dumb people. Dumb people get scare of numbers, so is better to make a poor description of a power, than have some factual numerical data.
This has always been a funny topic for me. If you don;t like taking orders and don't really like raiding then why should you get raid level gear? Certainly you don;t need it for solo questing, Pvp has different rewards so thats not the reason.
I found nothing wrong with casual players that didnt enjoy raiding to just get blue gear. You really dont need anything else if you only adventuring.
Players get raid gear to keep raiding, whats the point in getting it if you dont like raiding?
Because primarily whether a player is a raider or not, obtaining the gear is a form of character progression and a continuation of your that players experience in their chosen playstyle.
It's not about whether raid gear is not needed to kill the rats outside the city gates, because even solo'ers wouldn't want to do that. If solo'ers (and teams/groups for that matter) are given a progression path which provides them with rewards which are better than they already have, then they are happy because there is something to aspire to which involves their chosen playstyle. In other words, whilst there is another item to get / another level to get / more talent points to get then the game isn't ending for that person. Once there's nothing more to aspire to, that's it game over until the next expansion.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
This has always been a funny topic for me. If you don;t like taking orders and don't really like raiding then why should you get raid level gear? Certainly you don;t need it for solo questing, Pvp has different rewards so thats not the reason.
I found nothing wrong with casual players that didnt enjoy raiding to just get blue gear. You really dont need anything else if you only adventuring.
Players get raid gear to keep raiding, whats the point in getting it if you dont like raiding?
Because primarily whether you are a raider or not, obtaining the gear is a form of character progression and a continuation of their game experience in their chosen playstyle. It's not about whether raid gear is not needed to kill the rats outside the city gates, because even solo'ers wouldn't want to do that. If solo'ers (and teams/groups for that matter) are given a progression path which provides them with rewards which are better than they already have, then they are happy because there is something to aspire to which involves their chosen playstyle.
Well, you have some PvP options as well(see WoW's battlegrounds and to a lesser extent, medium-rated arena). But to get gear on par(or close to on par) with raiders/good PvPers from soloing is a little bit too far.After all, it's a MMO.
Do you have to insult people? First of all, I've never known a "dumb" mmo gamer were all DnD and Tech nerds these people are usually pretty smart.
Imo giving people proper info in a video game doesn't mean it's catering to "dumb" people.
Eve has a fantastic new player tutorial thats getting another tweak in December and that's considered one of the most complex mmos.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
That's not really dumbing things down. It might be a poor rewards structure, but that assumes the actual effort involved in the raid content is considerably higher than small group content. Which isn't necessarily true.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This has always been a funny topic for me. If you don;t like taking orders and don't really like raiding then why should you get raid level gear? Certainly you don;t need it for solo questing, Pvp has different rewards so thats not the reason.
I found nothing wrong with casual players that didnt enjoy raiding to just get blue gear. You really dont need anything else if you only adventuring.
Players get raid gear to keep raiding, whats the point in getting it if you dont like raiding?
Because primarily whether a player is a raider or not, obtaining the gear is a form of character progression and a continuation of your that players experience in their chosen playstyle.
It's not about whether raid gear is not needed to kill the rats outside the city gates, because even solo'ers wouldn't want to do that. If solo'ers (and teams/groups for that matter) are given a progression path which provides them with rewards which are better than they already have, then they are happy because there is something to aspire to which involves their chosen playstyle. In other words, whilst there is another item to get / another level to get / more talent points to get then the game isn't ending for that person. Once there's nothing more to aspire to, that's it game over until the next expansion.
I agree with people having different progression paths.
Maybe someone should suggest Items that are targeted toward those types of players then. Maybe armor sets for the soloer (one designed to make farming easier w less downtime and increase faction gain) maybe armor sets designed to help small dungeon players advance those dungeons?
Imo diminishing raiders achievements by handing items to non-raiders is the wrong thing to do. Give them their own progression system to work on.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Well, you have some PvP options as well(see WoW's battlegrounds and to a lesser extent, medium-rated arena). But to get gear on par(or close to on par) with raiders/good PvPers from soloing is a little bit too far.After all, it's a MMO.
PVP is another playstyle that not everyone wants to partake in. Choice is good.
Now, when I personally speak about solo'ers / group'ers obtaining gear that is comparable to raiders, I am implying that it would be expected and accepted that there would be a large amount of work involved in getting that gear. To use a simple example, whereas a raider could possibly obtain an item on the first kill of a particular boss, it could take a solo'er 10x that amount of tries or time or whatever to get it. In short, a certain item doesn't necessary dictate that the same amount of effort is required by all playstyles.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Well, you have some PvP options as well(see WoW's battlegrounds and to a lesser extent, medium-rated arena). But to get gear on par(or close to on par) with raiders/good PvPers from soloing is a little bit too far.After all, it's a MMO.
PVP is another playstyle that not everyone wants to partake in. Choice is good.
Now, when I personally speak about solo'ers / group'ers obtaining gear that is comparable to raiders, I am implying that it would be expected and accepted that there would be a large amount of work involved in getting that gear. To use a simple example, whereas a raider could possibly obtain an item on the first kill of a particular boss, it could take a solo'er 10x that amount of tries or time or whatever to get it. In short, a certain item doesn't necessary dictate that the same amount of effort is required by all playstyles.
But the question is: how are you going to implement that? As, let's say, a huge grind in several small-scale instances/open world to get materials for that item? A more "smart" approach, like adding puzzles, putting you in control of several characters to defeat a boss? There's still a difference between complete soloing and alternating soloing with small-scale grouping.
It would be nice to have these kind of features, but look at the MMOs today.
All you see are PvE MMORPGs, PvP-only MMORPGs. I'm waiting for the day when all this casual/hardcore, themepark/bullshit thing will stop, and a company will create a "full" MMO, with elements from all types of MMOs and for everyone. WoW did this to an extent.
I agree with people having different progression paths.
Maybe someone should suggest Items that are targeted toward those types of players then. Maybe armor sets for the soloer (one designed to make farming easier w less downtime and increase faction gain) maybe armor sets designed to help small dungeon players advance those dungeons?
Imo diminishing raiders achievements by handing items to non-raiders is the wrong thing to do. Give them their own progression system to work on.
I do agree with you on some points. However, I don't think allowing solo'ers to obtain raider items diminishes the raiders achievements IF there is an appropriate amount of effort expected of other playstyles to achieve those items. Not all playstyles have to put in the same amount of effort to get the same item. Now that is based on constraints that MMO devs may have in terms of the amount of time allocated to develop progression paths. Using the same items for more than one path cuts down dev time.
The fact remains that ALL playstyles need a progression path. Now if development time isn't a factor then perhaps MMO devs should provide a complete end game path for all playstyles with comparable BUT different armour
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Man, I still remember when I got rank 8 (knight captain?) and got my first blue pvp items. those were the days...
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Well, you have some PvP options as well(see WoW's battlegrounds and to a lesser extent, medium-rated arena). But to get gear on par(or close to on par) with raiders/good PvPers from soloing is a little bit too far.After all, it's a MMO.
PVP is another playstyle that not everyone wants to partake in. Choice is good.
Now, when I personally speak about solo'ers / group'ers obtaining gear that is comparable to raiders, I am implying that it would be expected and accepted that there would be a large amount of work involved in getting that gear. To use a simple example, whereas a raider could possibly obtain an item on the first kill of a particular boss, it could take a solo'er 10x that amount of tries or time or whatever to get it. In short, a certain item doesn't necessary dictate that the same amount of effort is required by all playstyles.
But the question is: how are you going to implement that? As, let's say, a huge grind in several small-scale instances/open world to get materials for that item? A more "smart" approach, like adding puzzles, putting you in control of several characters to defeat a boss? There's still a difference between complete soloing and alternating soloing with small-scale grouping.
It would be nice to have these kind of features, but look at the MMOs today.
All you see are PvE MMORPGs, PvP-only MMORPGs. I'm waiting for the day when all this casual/hardcore, themepark/bullshit thing will stop, and a company will create a "full" MMO, with elements from all types of MMOs and for everyone. WoW did this to an extent.
WoW is a good example of how you can offer incentives to the various playstyles in order to encourage them to continue playing. It's not perfect by any stretch, but at least they try. Some hate the fact that such places like the Argent Tournament / faction system allows group players to obtain items which are comparable (and in some cases better) than raid items. And whilst there may indeed be a slight imbalance on that, the concept is still sound. Its the implementation of that concept that Blizzard may have gotten slightly wrong.
And that concept is that over time and with effort groupers can aspire to obtain better items. And that same concept can be used for solo'ing too, with the appropriate tweaking to what the devs require the solo'ers to do in order to achieve their goals.
I'm sure you'll agree that whilst choice is good, it also has to be fair and balanced so as not to necessarily discourage people from partaking in the other choices. My point is, solo'ing to get these items doesn't necessarily have to be easy. And yes, you could indeed involve concepts like puzzles, or operating more than one avatar during a fight (the MMO equivalent to "plate spinning") in order to "flesh" that experience out rather than just asking the player to kill Boss YYY 20 times.
Another good example (although not perfect) is the Level 80 Destiny quest experience in Age of Conan. It's single player, but hard. It has puzzles and waves of mobs. Ignoring the fact that some classes find it easy for a moment, the intention is that it is supposed to be challenging to a single player because its the last stage in the destiny quest that the player has been partaking in throughout the levels.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
So, killing 1000 ice weasels to get the Sword of Uberness requires intelligence, but killing 100? Why, any idiot can do THAT!
I guess the ice weasels get smarter the longer you kill them, or something...
Here's a hint: The ability to do nothing for long periods of time is not indicative of intelligence, skill, or ability. "I camped this spawn for FORTY HOURS!" doesn't mean you're smart. It means you have a very large bladder or a very suspicious collection of Mountain Dew bottles, if you etgay my iftdray.
I wish people would stop confusing "length of grind" with "difficulty".
I remember when I started playing EQ2 when it first came out, it took for-freakin'-EVER to grind gathering skills. I once spent four hours just running in circles in a small cave so I could be able to harvest in Antonica. And there was a quest for some kind of heritage boots where you needed 100 stone and 100 wood or something like that, and the resource node spawn rate was loooow and, IIRC, you could easily get nothing from a harvest attempt. When I tried it again in 2007, you pretty much could max your gathering with no effort at all, and the requirements for gathering were much lower and the "rares" were much less rare -- in 2004, I got one "rare" in TWENTY SIX LEVELS, in 2007, I got a "rare" about 1 in 10 harvests.
What did I have to do to harvest in EQ2 in 2004? I clicked on a node and waited.
What did I have to do to harvest in EQ2 in 2007? I clicked on a node and waited. I just had to click a LOT LESS NODES.
Please, explain to me exactly how I needed more "intelligence" to max my harvesting in 2004? I needed more PATIENCE, clearly, or, rather, more tolerance for boredom. Intelligence? I'm not seeing it. I open the floor to you, sir, to explain to me why doing the same thing 1,000 times requires more intelligence than doing it 100 times.
Oh, I played original EQ (and UO, and Isle of Kesmai...) so let's talk "dumbing down". I got a Beastlord to level 45 in EQ1. To play him, I needed to click pretty much two buttons -- "Beast Attack" and "Kick", whenever it came up. Every once in a while, a spell might be useful, but I only could have 8 at a time and most were slow cooldown and could be used about once per fight.
Now, let's compare "hard" EQ to "dumbed down" WoW. My hunter has about 20-odd abilities to juggle in any given fight, and beast management is a lot more complex than "point at enemy". (Hell, the fact that there are many pets with unique attributes and talent trees puts EQ's "You're a cat man? Here's your tiger. You're a lizardman? Here's your alligator." system to shame.) Juggling DOTs, debuffs, managing mana, managing my aggro, managing my pets aggro, dealing with potion cooldowns and item cooldowns and knowing when to use lower rank powers... by any objective measure of "How much information do you need to juggle/how many actions are available to you at any moment", WoW is much more complex than EQ1, at least as of the time I played EQ 1 (1998 for a few months, then 2002-2004). Yet WoW is called "Dumbed down" because instead of going to Allakhazam to figure out how to do a quest, you can actually figure it out from the quest text, and there's no way to accidentally destroy a one-of-a-kind item by giving it to the wrong NPC. (Oh, and you can't start typing "Hail" when you talk to an NPC, and discover you're not in chat mode, and 'A' is bound to 'Attack', so the very first thing you do in the game is aggro your trainer who is 50th level and he kills you instantly. Yes, that happened to me in EQ1, and it happened to a lot of other people. Some people (some STUPID people) think this is a "challenge" or that it makes the game "harder". No, it just shows poor design.)
Incoherent and illiterate flames from people who probably weren't even born when I first played a game via a telecommunications device and who will cry about "WoW kiddies" in 5... 4... 3...
Agreed Lizard. Some people cannot differentiate between what is intended to be convenient against what the devs actually intend as being the effort required in the CORE gameplay in order to complete a goal. They bastardise definitions to suit their own skewed perspective.
Its like complaining that having labels on switches and levers in a car is dumbing down the effort required to drive.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's