MAG for the ps3 is the closest you are going to see. But I don't think that is exactly the kind of game you are talking about.
I think there will be Massive (how constitutes massive?) Multi-player Online FPS's (like WWII Online but more mainstream) that will come out.
They still have some type of XP system though. I mean even COD Modern Warfare II has and XP system. Although in a game like that it mean a lot less then it does in an MMO.
I think the problem with traditional MMO's is that the XP/level systems makes it impossible to newer players to compete in PvP or be to helpful for PvE.
They need to have some way of balancing that out. They also need to have no tiered worlds that keep the higher level players and newer players in the same area. That would prevent the newbie areas from becoming ghost towns and discouraging newer players.
There is risk of less profit in games with no skill/exp progression. Alot of developers understand that to keep a player interested they have to feed the player their game little bit at a time or they will just burn out quickly. Another problem with the FPS mechanic is that lag can become an issue.
On the other hand I completely agree with the OP and I would love to see a game where players do not have to level/skill up anything and all abilities are equal with their own upside and downside.
One other thing I have personally grown sick of is games that revolve and function entire around combat. I miss sandbox games like UO with a focus on not combat but rather community and adventure. Maybe one of these day someone will put together a game with more interactive enviroments + no skill/level and as much "fluff" as needed to keep the players immersed and involved in their own sandbox community.
EDIT: I believe I have found a game that will be coming out with this basic premise. Look up APB (All Points Bulletin). I do not believe there is any skill progression in that game.
OP - I think that idea could work very well. I have always thought that it would be fun to have an MMO where leveling (by XP or skills) is not the focus. It could work much as you described. Instead of grinding for advancement, you go on long quest chains that eventually give you a new skill or item that allows you to do something new. Like in the Zelda games where you get the power glove and are suddenly able to lift heavy rocks. Or the zip-line you can use to swing across long drops. Or maybe you learn some new combat moves or a way to climb or run across walls like in Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed. The point is, there are other ways to advance one's character than simply leveling up a long chain. The problem is that this would require developers to be much less lazy. They would have to think out creative ways of implementing new game mechanics and would have to create enough content to allow you to get there in a fun and engaging way. At the same time, they would have to make that content long enough that people continue paying their $15 a month. The XP/skill grind currently gives them an artificial barrier to the end game that developers love to use to keep people paying and grinding without implementing more content. Unfortunately I don't think they will attempt something like this until we gamers stop playing the mindless grinder games and demand something new.
Those are some really good points you made. However I'm not sure about the bit regarding having to make content long enough to justify a monthly fee. Isnt this precisely why so many mmos are shit? Whats wrong with making a smaller mmo that focuses on quality instead of quantity and just removing the monthly fee? I would even pay a high initial box price if the game was well made and fun to play. People pay money for single player games and they dont expect the game to keep them occupied for months or even years. It can be the same for mmos too.
One thing is clear: Players needs to get some kind of reward for playing. That reward can be skills, levels, gear, feats or something totally different but a game where you have none of those wont be a MMO. But you can make a where the character doesn't get better, just the stuff he have on him.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
One thing is clear: Players needs to get some kind of reward for playing. That reward can be skills, levels, gear, feats or something totally different but a game where you have none of those wont be a MMO. But you can make a where the character doesn't get better, just the stuff he have on him.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
No one plays any game for the enjoyment of the game except perhaps small children.
After that, most games become a matter of "winning" and the reward is the win. We even take it to a professional level and pay big money to people who are capable of winning in a game.
People don't play pro baseball or golf for 'the love of the game", that's a fantasy from bad movies, they play for the cash.
Now, with MMORPG's, how does one win? Developers have chosen to create artifical goals such as levels, gear, skills, game currency or titles to use as yardsticks to let players measure themselves against each other and give them a sense of winning.
PVP games are a bit easier, you win by stomping your opponents flat, but in PVE those other yardsticks are pretty much necessary to give the player a way to enjoy the game.
Now, back to the OP, an idea I always thought would be nice is to give every player starting out a fixed pool of skill points to spend that never changes (except perhaps on a temporary basis). You also establish a set of core skills that everyone has access to and they empower even the new player with the skills (but not necessarily the experience) to take on even a hardened veteran.
Progression would come from achieving in game goals, be it PVE or PVP oriented and the rewards would be new skills that perhaps gave your character the power to breath underwarter, opening up new content areas, or fly, giving a new tactical advantage.
The rub would be that in order to use these new skills the player would have to give up some of the core skills and put the new ones in their place. Done properly game play could be designed so that certain combinations of new and old skills used in certain situations would dominate, but the core skills only player could still compete and win in the right circumstances.
I realize GW operates a lot like this already, and being able to flexibly respec your character like in GW's would be crucial to making this game succeed. Controls and limits would have to be put in place to ensure certain scenarios occur (EVE is much like this already) and you'd have to tactically outthing your opponents or the game itself to chose the right combinations.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Yes I'm sure we will see MMO without xp and skillpoints. But a MMORPG without them? No because IMO XP and Skillpoints and or Levels are part of what make up the RPG part of the MMORPG. Character progression is part of RPG's as well as playing an actual role. If you don't have that kind of progression then you just have a plain hack and slash action game. The problem with games now days is its a stupid quest grind and the devs just make it boring while your are leveling. All the cool stuff is at endgame so everyone rushes through the grind to get to the fun. To me I can't handle all that shit I get so bored even before I get to the cool stuff. I remember games where It wasn't a race to max level and not many people were max. It was all about adventure, grouping up just to group up, and being more of a social game.
Yeah but why does "character progression" have to involve the raising of numbers and stats on a character sheet? Why does a player have to become more powerful? It doesnt neccessarily enhance the gameplay or make it more enjoyable. It does however keep players apart from each other in what are supposed to be multiplayer games. How about a game where you choose all of your skills and abilities from a massive selection at character creation.......and then thats it. Thats your character. From then on you roleplay your part in the gameworld with what you have chosen.
Here is a possible way it could work. Every player at character creation has 1000 points to spend on skills, stats, abilities etc (maybe even hit points). One player might choose to be really strong, is a good carpenter, can swim really well and is good at surviving in the wilderness. Another player might choose to be a fast runner, can use a bow really well, has an understanding of animals and can cast some simple spells. Characters always have 1000 points and this never changes. However players can still learn new things with their chosen trades/skills. The strong carpenter could learn to build different things or pick up various survivial techniques. The fast runner could learn to tame and control various animals or learn new tricks with his bow. Players would also be able to shift their points in certain directions at the sacrifice of other skills/traits. The fast runner might decide to become more focused on his magic spells and choose to become a slower runner (he got fat from sitting around reading books lol).
You say that a game without character progression is just a hack n slash game? Nearly all of the mmos currently on the market have character progression......and they all focus on endless combat and nothing else. Do all the players in those games choose to be mass murderers because they want to? Nope. They do it because its the only option they have. They do it because its the only way to level up their characters.......because leveling up is the only way to make any progress in the game. Would people brainlessly kill thousands of mobs if they knew their characters were not benefiting from it? Its pretty clear that character progression doesnt stop an mmo from being a hack n slash game. If anything it makes it more of one......especially when killing things to make your level go up is the only thing you have to do in a game.
Remove the level grinding treadmills and it becomes pretty clear that virtually all of these mmos dont actually offer much at all in the way of fun or interesting gameplay. You just kill things and then go up levels so you can kill more things that match your level. Thats it. Killing 100s of the same thing over and over isnt fun......but the promise of a carrot makes it worthwhile right? The impression of progress you get from these treadmills is an illusion to keep people hooked on weak repetitive gameplay. Without the levels and exp points the players would become free to do things that they actually enjoy rather than being slaves to the boring activities that come from chasing level grinding carrots......thats assuming there were actually things to do in a game other than endless combat. Thats where most sandbox games fall flat on their faces. MMOs would actually have to provide fun gameplay and things to do that involve interacting with each other (mmo?) to keep players engrossed rather than simply throwing down levelling treadmills to keep them addicted.
But the players in general have been too conditioned to hack n slash level grinding games games to be able to accept or understand anything else.......and the games companies have also become too conditioned by making these types of games for so many years to be capable of making anything else. This is apparent through so many peoples perception that all rpgs MUST have levels and character progression and they MUST make progress through the mass murder of mobs.
One thing is clear: Players needs to get some kind of reward for playing. That reward can be skills, levels, gear, feats or something totally different but a game where you have none of those wont be a MMO. But you can make a where the character doesn't get better, just the stuff he have on him.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
No one plays any game for the enjoyment of the game except perhaps small children.
After that, most games become a matter of "winning" and the reward is the win. We even take it to a professional level and pay big money to people who are capable of winning in a game.
People don't play pro baseball or golf for 'the love of the game", that's a fantasy from bad movies, they play for the cash.
Now, with MMORPG's, how does one win? Developers have chosen to create artifical goals such as levels, gear, skills, game currency or titles to use as yardsticks to let players measure themselves against each other and give them a sense of winning.
PVP games are a bit easier, you win by stomping your opponents flat, but in PVE those other yardsticks are pretty much necessary to give the player a way to enjoy the game.
Now, back to the OP, an idea I always thought would be nice is to give every player starting out a fixed pool of skill points to spend that never changes (except perhaps on a temporary basis). You also establish a set of core skills that everyone has access to and they empower even the new player with the skills (but not necessarily the experience) to take on even a hardened veteran.
Progression would come from achieving in game goals, be it PVE or PVP oriented and the rewards would be new skills that perhaps gave your character the power to breath underwarter, opening up new content areas, or fly, giving a new tactical advantage.
The rub would be that in order to use these new skills the player would have to give up some of the core skills and put the new ones in their place. Done properly game play could be designed so that certain combinations of new and old skills used in certain situations would dominate, but the core skills only player could still compete and win in the right circumstances.
I realize GW operates a lot like this already, and being able to flexibly respec your character like in GW's would be crucial to making this game succeed. Controls and limits would have to be put in place to ensure certain scenarios occur (EVE is much like this already) and you'd have to tactically outthing your opponents or the game itself to chose the right combinations.
You just described exactly what I had in mind in my post above.......except your description is much better.
I want a mmo with real time combat ( and not some disguised turn based combat) with no skills. you press X and you swing, cast or shoot. Take combat away from skills and make it environment based. make traps, dig holes, drop rocks on the mobs, use guerilla tactics. Mob too hard to go toe to toe with? no problem. lure it someplace where you will have the higher ground, or a terrain advantage, or even the strength of numbers. Imagine this. You see a lizard 10 times your size. what sane person would walk up to it and bash it with a club? no. go into the woods, dig a hole in the ground, cover it with foliage. aggro the mob, run like hell, lure it into the hole. once its there, its yours to kill. maybe actually make mobs be able to out run you depending on their type. make me crawl, roll and zig zag through the trees if I have to, just make combat more exciting than standing in front of something and use the "2" key. humanoid mobs. you run into a camp full of orcs. instead of going in cutting everything in half, why not make a poison, stealthing into their camp and pouring it into their cauldron? (cmon theres always a cauldron in orc camps, its a rule or something). then loot the ones who fell for it. Imagine the gameplay of something like "Shadow of the Colossus" in a mmorpg. thats what I would love to see basically.
-if they made MMO with everything you just said it would be the most awesome mmo there is imo.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
Funny enough, this is what a lot of people were asking when Borderlands came out. You're doing the same stuff you do in an MMO (quest train, leveling, loot whoring), so why doesn't it feel like a grind? Simple answer, because combat is actually fun in Borderlands.
Combat has always been a major weak point for MMOs yet, they've always felt the need to make a combat a major focus. Doesn't make sense to me. Either push combat as a secondary feature (like some of the skill based MMOs have done) or improve the combat system. You don't even have to go with FPS combat, just adjust mob AI and spawns so that it's much less predictable and more like PvP.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
Funny enough, this is what a lot of people were asking when Borderlands came out. You're doing the same stuff you do in an MMO (quest train, leveling, loot whoring), so why doesn't it feel like a grind? Simple answer, because combat is actually fun in Borderlands.
Combat has always been a major weak point for MMOs yet, they've always felt the need to make a combat a major focus. Doesn't make sense to me. Either push combat as a secondary feature (like some of the skill based MMOs have done) or improve the combat system. You don't even have to go with FPS combat, just adjust mob AI and spawns so that it's much less predictable and more like PvP.
Indeed.......or produce MMOs that take full advantage of the internet. Focusing on developing decent AI is good but we also have other forms of AI that dont need any extra work. Thousands of them log online every day........so they can ignore each other, read stories and kill computer controlled mobs in pursuit of the next level fix. They're basicly playing weak online single player games with optional teamwork features. Why focus so hard on trying to make computer controlled opponents act like people when we already have real people? Oh yeah I remember now. Its because real people get upset if they get beaten by another human being.......but getting whooped by a badly programmed computer opponent is somehow less of a threat to peoples fragile egos. People are strange.
Then again I suppose we have to remember that online games are actually relatively new. It was only 25 years ago when I remember playing games on my Spectrum. I guess back then if someone had said to me "In 25 years time there will be 2 games called EvE and Darkfall where players can fully interact with each other in a virtual gameworld" then I would have been amazed. I guess I will just have to wait and see what Mortal Online and various other mmos focused on player interaction can offer.
Well doesnt there need to be some sense of character progression? if its a game like Halo, where the only skill you gain is real life playing skills i dont think that would work for an mmo.
Well doesnt there need to be some sense of character progression? if its a game like Halo, where the only skill you gain is real life playing skills i dont think that would work for an mmo.
Why not? Because its not the "accepted way" of doing things? A game that relies on player skill in a virtual gameworld inhabited by hundreds of players sounds pretty good to me......a bit like Planetside perhaps which was an mmo and was supposedly a pretty good game (never played it myself though). Why does Halo always get brought up whenever the mention of player skill occurs in an mmo discussion anyway? A minor show of contempt perhaps?
Your right though. There should indeed be "some sense of character progression". Why does it need to take the form of numbers on a character sheet though? Here is some "character progression" for you.......
You create your character and decide what skills, stats and abilities he will have. You also choose various background traits he has such as things like "Keen Eyesight", "Born of Noble Blood" or "Locksmith".....character building stuff that seperates you and makes you unique basicly.....ya know the kind of stuff that makes real roleplaying games interesting but never actually appears in mmos. Then you pick your starting location. You choose to start in a small fishing village off the coast of blah blah land.
You wander around for a bit and talk to some npcs. They tell you rumours of whats going on nearby, which changes depending on what the players have been getting up to recently. It turns out that the graveyard outside the village has recently become infested with undead (unknown to you, this was triggered recently by the actions of a necromancer player. Yeah I know......an mmo where players can make things happen? Whatever next!). Bugger! The chap in charge of the village offers you a small reward (they're not rich ya know) if you sort out the problem. There are two other adventurer types currently in the village (players). One of them is a hooded fellow and he seems a bit shady. He refuses to help.....mumbling something about not wanting to go near manky old dead things. He says he has other matters to attend to. The other guy is a goody-two-shoes paladin and happily agrees. He hates undead and will gladly help you to "smite such abominations". So you both venture to the graveyard, kill the undead and fortunately the paladin knows a way of cleansing the graveyard of the evil presence. Without the paladin you wouldnt have been able to permanently remove the evil force from the graveyard and would have had to return to the village leader with a "Well I chopped them up but they wouldnt stay down" reply. Fortunately he pays you the full reward......well it goes to both of you actually and you have to split it. The village npcs now look more favourably upon you. If your standing with the village gets really high then some npcs might be willing to assist you with extra money, free food from the tavern, maybe a spare sword from a grateful blacksmith or possibly advice on the location of hidden treasure.
......and there ya go. You've just had a little adventure. You helped the village solve their undead problem......with the help of your new found paladin friend of course. You did it because you wanted to and it was in keeping with how you wanted your character to behave. Your "character progression" was......
You met a paladin.
You met a shady character.
You met some undead and killed them.
You helped to cleanse an evil force from a graveyard.
You gained the trust of the inhabitants of a fishing village.
You received a small amount of money.
Thats character progression. Its the sort of progression you get as you follow the adventures of someone in a book or film. Thats something to remember. No you didnt gain 250exp points. No you didnt get a sparkly light appear over your head as you go up a level (to be accompanied by a string of "gratz!!" from anyone nearby). No you didnt gain 25 hp. No you didnt gain an extra 10 skill points to assign on your character sheet. No you didnt gain the "Mighty Sword Swing" skill.
Why would you need to gain any of that stuff? Are you playing the game because you like the rewards or because you like playing roleplaying games? You just had fun playing a roleplaying game where you could roleplay the part of a character......where you could choose to do whatever you like and not feel that you had to accept the task of dealing with the undead. You could have refused (like the shady player did) and you wouldnt have missed out on anything. Sure you wouldnt have gained the favour of the village but then that might not be a good thing depending on how you want to play your character. There might be other npcs in the world who look down on you for being friends with lowly smelly fishermen. Your characters life would simply have progressed differently. Is the enjoyment of the adventure you just went on now obsolete because the game didnt "pay you" to carry on playing? Do you feel cheated by the game because it didnt make you more powerful? Is the fact that your actions just had an impact on a virtual world of no interest?
Of course none of this would ever happen in any of the current mmos. They all have limited gameplay, static worlds and they keep people playing by dangling carrots and throwing shinies at us.
A long winded reply to your short comment? Perhaps. Is it all aimed at you specifically? Not neccessarily. The point is that character progression can occur in the effect we have on the gameworld, the wealth we amass, the treasures we find, the friendships we form, etc etc. There really isnt any need for our characters to become demi gods for a game to feel worthwhile. We dont need to be constantly morphing into something else. I understand that its the accepted way things have always been done. It would be nice to see a game that doesnt follow the flock for once though. A roleplaying game instead of a level grinding carrot chasing game would be nice. A game where you're effectively "max level" from the beginning so you are free to do whatever you like.
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i would like to play the game without the XP/skill point ,But i think how to attract us or how to encourage us to pay for that ,which is the point .it is not easy to make a gameplay which can attract us (meanwhile it can make money).
MMOA with the A=adventure game such as The Legend of Zelda.
If you think about it a MMORPG is by definition of the RPG is partially a grind. I can't think of any offline RPG that I have ever played didn't have XP.
So, it you want a MMO that doesn't have XP type system it would need to be a different genre.
EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre. Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games. Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP]) If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development, MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre. Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games. Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP]) If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development, MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario
EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre. Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games. Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP]) If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development, MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario
You should try to think outside the box a little bit.
EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre. Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games. Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP]) If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development, MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
That'd be fanatastic! Unfortunately though, MMO developers cash out on most people with the whole "I need to get to the next level" thing.
Great idea in theory, but until it gets put forth in MMOs, we'll all be stuck on killing rats, spiders, and other wildlife before we hit that lvl 10 mark just to grind on more creatures and quests just so we can wear nifty armor, wield cool spells, and fight epic dragons.
Also on that note, the fantasy genre has been done to death. How about something new and original that doesn't involve humans, elves, and the never-ending dark legion of evil.
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
That doesn't really change anything. The only MMOFPS to date is Planetside and it's practically dead, though I can't wait for the second one to be made.
On another related note, almost every FPS out there is boring and interesting with the exception of Urban Terror currently.
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
Comments
The correct answer is a FPS.
I think something like
MAG for the ps3 is the closest you are going to see. But I don't think that is exactly the kind of game you are talking about.
I think there will be Massive (how constitutes massive?) Multi-player Online FPS's (like WWII Online but more mainstream) that will come out.
They still have some type of XP system though. I mean even COD Modern Warfare II has and XP system. Although in a game like that it mean a lot less then it does in an MMO.
I think the problem with traditional MMO's is that the XP/level systems makes it impossible to newer players to compete in PvP or be to helpful for PvE.
They need to have some way of balancing that out. They also need to have no tiered worlds that keep the higher level players and newer players in the same area. That would prevent the newbie areas from becoming ghost towns and discouraging newer players.
There is risk of less profit in games with no skill/exp progression. Alot of developers understand that to keep a player interested they have to feed the player their game little bit at a time or they will just burn out quickly. Another problem with the FPS mechanic is that lag can become an issue.
On the other hand I completely agree with the OP and I would love to see a game where players do not have to level/skill up anything and all abilities are equal with their own upside and downside.
One other thing I have personally grown sick of is games that revolve and function entire around combat. I miss sandbox games like UO with a focus on not combat but rather community and adventure. Maybe one of these day someone will put together a game with more interactive enviroments + no skill/level and as much "fluff" as needed to keep the players immersed and involved in their own sandbox community.
EDIT: I believe I have found a game that will be coming out with this basic premise. Look up APB (All Points Bulletin). I do not believe there is any skill progression in that game.
Those are some really good points you made. However I'm not sure about the bit regarding having to make content long enough to justify a monthly fee. Isnt this precisely why so many mmos are shit? Whats wrong with making a smaller mmo that focuses on quality instead of quantity and just removing the monthly fee? I would even pay a high initial box price if the game was well made and fun to play. People pay money for single player games and they dont expect the game to keep them occupied for months or even years. It can be the same for mmos too.
One thing is clear: Players needs to get some kind of reward for playing. That reward can be skills, levels, gear, feats or something totally different but a game where you have none of those wont be a MMO. But you can make a where the character doesn't get better, just the stuff he have on him.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
One thing is clear: Players needs to get some kind of reward for playing. That reward can be skills, levels, gear, feats or something totally different but a game where you have none of those wont be a MMO. But you can make a where the character doesn't get better, just the stuff he have on him.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
No one plays any game for the enjoyment of the game except perhaps small children.
After that, most games become a matter of "winning" and the reward is the win. We even take it to a professional level and pay big money to people who are capable of winning in a game.
People don't play pro baseball or golf for 'the love of the game", that's a fantasy from bad movies, they play for the cash.
Now, with MMORPG's, how does one win? Developers have chosen to create artifical goals such as levels, gear, skills, game currency or titles to use as yardsticks to let players measure themselves against each other and give them a sense of winning.
PVP games are a bit easier, you win by stomping your opponents flat, but in PVE those other yardsticks are pretty much necessary to give the player a way to enjoy the game.
Now, back to the OP, an idea I always thought would be nice is to give every player starting out a fixed pool of skill points to spend that never changes (except perhaps on a temporary basis). You also establish a set of core skills that everyone has access to and they empower even the new player with the skills (but not necessarily the experience) to take on even a hardened veteran.
Progression would come from achieving in game goals, be it PVE or PVP oriented and the rewards would be new skills that perhaps gave your character the power to breath underwarter, opening up new content areas, or fly, giving a new tactical advantage.
The rub would be that in order to use these new skills the player would have to give up some of the core skills and put the new ones in their place. Done properly game play could be designed so that certain combinations of new and old skills used in certain situations would dominate, but the core skills only player could still compete and win in the right circumstances.
I realize GW operates a lot like this already, and being able to flexibly respec your character like in GW's would be crucial to making this game succeed. Controls and limits would have to be put in place to ensure certain scenarios occur (EVE is much like this already) and you'd have to tactically outthing your opponents or the game itself to chose the right combinations.
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Yeah but why does "character progression" have to involve the raising of numbers and stats on a character sheet? Why does a player have to become more powerful? It doesnt neccessarily enhance the gameplay or make it more enjoyable. It does however keep players apart from each other in what are supposed to be multiplayer games. How about a game where you choose all of your skills and abilities from a massive selection at character creation.......and then thats it. Thats your character. From then on you roleplay your part in the gameworld with what you have chosen.
Here is a possible way it could work. Every player at character creation has 1000 points to spend on skills, stats, abilities etc (maybe even hit points). One player might choose to be really strong, is a good carpenter, can swim really well and is good at surviving in the wilderness. Another player might choose to be a fast runner, can use a bow really well, has an understanding of animals and can cast some simple spells. Characters always have 1000 points and this never changes. However players can still learn new things with their chosen trades/skills. The strong carpenter could learn to build different things or pick up various survivial techniques. The fast runner could learn to tame and control various animals or learn new tricks with his bow. Players would also be able to shift their points in certain directions at the sacrifice of other skills/traits. The fast runner might decide to become more focused on his magic spells and choose to become a slower runner (he got fat from sitting around reading books lol).
You say that a game without character progression is just a hack n slash game? Nearly all of the mmos currently on the market have character progression......and they all focus on endless combat and nothing else. Do all the players in those games choose to be mass murderers because they want to? Nope. They do it because its the only option they have. They do it because its the only way to level up their characters.......because leveling up is the only way to make any progress in the game. Would people brainlessly kill thousands of mobs if they knew their characters were not benefiting from it? Its pretty clear that character progression doesnt stop an mmo from being a hack n slash game. If anything it makes it more of one......especially when killing things to make your level go up is the only thing you have to do in a game.
Remove the level grinding treadmills and it becomes pretty clear that virtually all of these mmos dont actually offer much at all in the way of fun or interesting gameplay. You just kill things and then go up levels so you can kill more things that match your level. Thats it. Killing 100s of the same thing over and over isnt fun......but the promise of a carrot makes it worthwhile right? The impression of progress you get from these treadmills is an illusion to keep people hooked on weak repetitive gameplay. Without the levels and exp points the players would become free to do things that they actually enjoy rather than being slaves to the boring activities that come from chasing level grinding carrots......thats assuming there were actually things to do in a game other than endless combat. Thats where most sandbox games fall flat on their faces. MMOs would actually have to provide fun gameplay and things to do that involve interacting with each other (mmo?) to keep players engrossed rather than simply throwing down levelling treadmills to keep them addicted.
But the players in general have been too conditioned to hack n slash level grinding games games to be able to accept or understand anything else.......and the games companies have also become too conditioned by making these types of games for so many years to be capable of making anything else. This is apparent through so many peoples perception that all rpgs MUST have levels and character progression and they MUST make progress through the mass murder of mobs.
One thing is clear: Players needs to get some kind of reward for playing. That reward can be skills, levels, gear, feats or something totally different but a game where you have none of those wont be a MMO. But you can make a where the character doesn't get better, just the stuff he have on him.
Why do players NEED to be rewarded for playing a game though? Shouldnt the enjoyment of playing the game be enough? A reward is given to someone for doing something that they otherwise would not want to do. As an example we go to work and we get rewarded with money. It seems to me though that the system of rewarding players in mmos is there to cover up the fact that the games themselves arent actually very good. In many of them it actually is like going to work. Its as though people are playing mmos because they are addicted to the leveling process and its artificial rewards rather than the actual gameplay itself. Stop feeding the players carrots and they lose interest. If a game was genuinely enjoyable though then would the carrots actually matter?
No one plays any game for the enjoyment of the game except perhaps small children.
After that, most games become a matter of "winning" and the reward is the win. We even take it to a professional level and pay big money to people who are capable of winning in a game.
People don't play pro baseball or golf for 'the love of the game", that's a fantasy from bad movies, they play for the cash.
Now, with MMORPG's, how does one win? Developers have chosen to create artifical goals such as levels, gear, skills, game currency or titles to use as yardsticks to let players measure themselves against each other and give them a sense of winning.
PVP games are a bit easier, you win by stomping your opponents flat, but in PVE those other yardsticks are pretty much necessary to give the player a way to enjoy the game.
Now, back to the OP, an idea I always thought would be nice is to give every player starting out a fixed pool of skill points to spend that never changes (except perhaps on a temporary basis). You also establish a set of core skills that everyone has access to and they empower even the new player with the skills (but not necessarily the experience) to take on even a hardened veteran.
Progression would come from achieving in game goals, be it PVE or PVP oriented and the rewards would be new skills that perhaps gave your character the power to breath underwarter, opening up new content areas, or fly, giving a new tactical advantage.
The rub would be that in order to use these new skills the player would have to give up some of the core skills and put the new ones in their place. Done properly game play could be designed so that certain combinations of new and old skills used in certain situations would dominate, but the core skills only player could still compete and win in the right circumstances.
I realize GW operates a lot like this already, and being able to flexibly respec your character like in GW's would be crucial to making this game succeed. Controls and limits would have to be put in place to ensure certain scenarios occur (EVE is much like this already) and you'd have to tactically outthing your opponents or the game itself to chose the right combinations.
You just described exactly what I had in mind in my post above.......except your description is much better.
-if they made MMO with everything you just said it would be the most awesome mmo there is imo.
No thats the narrow minded answer.
Funny enough, this is what a lot of people were asking when Borderlands came out. You're doing the same stuff you do in an MMO (quest train, leveling, loot whoring), so why doesn't it feel like a grind? Simple answer, because combat is actually fun in Borderlands.
Combat has always been a major weak point for MMOs yet, they've always felt the need to make a combat a major focus. Doesn't make sense to me. Either push combat as a secondary feature (like some of the skill based MMOs have done) or improve the combat system. You don't even have to go with FPS combat, just adjust mob AI and spawns so that it's much less predictable and more like PvP.
Funny enough, this is what a lot of people were asking when Borderlands came out. You're doing the same stuff you do in an MMO (quest train, leveling, loot whoring), so why doesn't it feel like a grind? Simple answer, because combat is actually fun in Borderlands.
Combat has always been a major weak point for MMOs yet, they've always felt the need to make a combat a major focus. Doesn't make sense to me. Either push combat as a secondary feature (like some of the skill based MMOs have done) or improve the combat system. You don't even have to go with FPS combat, just adjust mob AI and spawns so that it's much less predictable and more like PvP.
Indeed.......or produce MMOs that take full advantage of the internet. Focusing on developing decent AI is good but we also have other forms of AI that dont need any extra work. Thousands of them log online every day........so they can ignore each other, read stories and kill computer controlled mobs in pursuit of the next level fix. They're basicly playing weak online single player games with optional teamwork features. Why focus so hard on trying to make computer controlled opponents act like people when we already have real people? Oh yeah I remember now. Its because real people get upset if they get beaten by another human being.......but getting whooped by a badly programmed computer opponent is somehow less of a threat to peoples fragile egos. People are strange.
Then again I suppose we have to remember that online games are actually relatively new. It was only 25 years ago when I remember playing games on my Spectrum. I guess back then if someone had said to me "In 25 years time there will be 2 games called EvE and Darkfall where players can fully interact with each other in a virtual gameworld" then I would have been amazed. I guess I will just have to wait and see what Mortal Online and various other mmos focused on player interaction can offer.
Well doesnt there need to be some sense of character progression? if its a game like Halo, where the only skill you gain is real life playing skills i dont think that would work for an mmo.
Playing EVE
Played Darkfall, Played Wow,
I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
the only game i can think of like this is - A TALE IN THE DESERT IV
Why not? Because its not the "accepted way" of doing things? A game that relies on player skill in a virtual gameworld inhabited by hundreds of players sounds pretty good to me......a bit like Planetside perhaps which was an mmo and was supposedly a pretty good game (never played it myself though). Why does Halo always get brought up whenever the mention of player skill occurs in an mmo discussion anyway? A minor show of contempt perhaps?
Your right though. There should indeed be "some sense of character progression". Why does it need to take the form of numbers on a character sheet though? Here is some "character progression" for you.......
You create your character and decide what skills, stats and abilities he will have. You also choose various background traits he has such as things like "Keen Eyesight", "Born of Noble Blood" or "Locksmith".....character building stuff that seperates you and makes you unique basicly.....ya know the kind of stuff that makes real roleplaying games interesting but never actually appears in mmos. Then you pick your starting location. You choose to start in a small fishing village off the coast of blah blah land.
You wander around for a bit and talk to some npcs. They tell you rumours of whats going on nearby, which changes depending on what the players have been getting up to recently. It turns out that the graveyard outside the village has recently become infested with undead (unknown to you, this was triggered recently by the actions of a necromancer player. Yeah I know......an mmo where players can make things happen? Whatever next!). Bugger! The chap in charge of the village offers you a small reward (they're not rich ya know) if you sort out the problem. There are two other adventurer types currently in the village (players). One of them is a hooded fellow and he seems a bit shady. He refuses to help.....mumbling something about not wanting to go near manky old dead things. He says he has other matters to attend to. The other guy is a goody-two-shoes paladin and happily agrees. He hates undead and will gladly help you to "smite such abominations". So you both venture to the graveyard, kill the undead and fortunately the paladin knows a way of cleansing the graveyard of the evil presence. Without the paladin you wouldnt have been able to permanently remove the evil force from the graveyard and would have had to return to the village leader with a "Well I chopped them up but they wouldnt stay down" reply. Fortunately he pays you the full reward......well it goes to both of you actually and you have to split it. The village npcs now look more favourably upon you. If your standing with the village gets really high then some npcs might be willing to assist you with extra money, free food from the tavern, maybe a spare sword from a grateful blacksmith or possibly advice on the location of hidden treasure.
......and there ya go. You've just had a little adventure. You helped the village solve their undead problem......with the help of your new found paladin friend of course. You did it because you wanted to and it was in keeping with how you wanted your character to behave. Your "character progression" was......
You met a paladin.
You met a shady character.
You met some undead and killed them.
You helped to cleanse an evil force from a graveyard.
You gained the trust of the inhabitants of a fishing village.
You received a small amount of money.
Thats character progression. Its the sort of progression you get as you follow the adventures of someone in a book or film. Thats something to remember. No you didnt gain 250exp points. No you didnt get a sparkly light appear over your head as you go up a level (to be accompanied by a string of "gratz!!" from anyone nearby). No you didnt gain 25 hp. No you didnt gain an extra 10 skill points to assign on your character sheet. No you didnt gain the "Mighty Sword Swing" skill.
Why would you need to gain any of that stuff? Are you playing the game because you like the rewards or because you like playing roleplaying games? You just had fun playing a roleplaying game where you could roleplay the part of a character......where you could choose to do whatever you like and not feel that you had to accept the task of dealing with the undead. You could have refused (like the shady player did) and you wouldnt have missed out on anything. Sure you wouldnt have gained the favour of the village but then that might not be a good thing depending on how you want to play your character. There might be other npcs in the world who look down on you for being friends with lowly smelly fishermen. Your characters life would simply have progressed differently. Is the enjoyment of the adventure you just went on now obsolete because the game didnt "pay you" to carry on playing? Do you feel cheated by the game because it didnt make you more powerful? Is the fact that your actions just had an impact on a virtual world of no interest?
Of course none of this would ever happen in any of the current mmos. They all have limited gameplay, static worlds and they keep people playing by dangling carrots and throwing shinies at us.
A long winded reply to your short comment? Perhaps. Is it all aimed at you specifically? Not neccessarily. The point is that character progression can occur in the effect we have on the gameworld, the wealth we amass, the treasures we find, the friendships we form, etc etc. There really isnt any need for our characters to become demi gods for a game to feel worthwhile. We dont need to be constantly morphing into something else. I understand that its the accepted way things have always been done. It would be nice to see a game that doesnt follow the flock for once though. A roleplaying game instead of a level grinding carrot chasing game would be nice. A game where you're effectively "max level" from the beginning so you are free to do whatever you like.
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i would like to play the game without the XP/skill point ,But i think how to attract us or how to encourage us to pay for that ,which is the point .it is not easy to make a gameplay which can attract us (meanwhile it can make money).
I sill think what you are looking for is a
MMOA with the A=adventure game such as The Legend of Zelda.
If you think about it a MMORPG is by definition of the RPG is partially a grind. I can't think of any offline RPG that I have ever played didn't have XP.
So, it you want a MMO that doesn't have XP type system it would need to be a different genre.
Such as an action, fps, strategy, etc.
EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre.
Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games.
Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP])
If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development,
MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario
I believe The Secret World is going to be a classless system with no levels so I would guess there wouldn't be a need to xp or skillpoints ?
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario
You should try to think outside the box a little bit.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
That'd be fanatastic! Unfortunately though, MMO developers cash out on most people with the whole "I need to get to the next level" thing.
Great idea in theory, but until it gets put forth in MMOs, we'll all be stuck on killing rats, spiders, and other wildlife before we hit that lvl 10 mark just to grind on more creatures and quests just so we can wear nifty armor, wield cool spells, and fight epic dragons.
Also on that note, the fantasy genre has been done to death. How about something new and original that doesn't involve humans, elves, and the never-ending dark legion of evil.
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
Go play a FPS.
That doesn't really change anything. The only MMOFPS to date is Planetside and it's practically dead, though I can't wait for the second one to be made.
On another related note, almost every FPS out there is boring and interesting with the exception of Urban Terror currently.
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."