For the love of god I hope they dont kill us with the cut scenes and voice acting every 1 mins, I swera in Dragon age, im finding my self saying "ffs STFU ALREADY, I WANT TO PLAY". Bioware this sint a singleplayer game damit, where u can keep stopping players 24/7. Ive nerv really been a fan of voice acting or cutscenes in games, other than the occasional one for a special event or something. My god and they also give NPC's to aid you so u never have to group again. GJ Bioware, why didnt u just call this mass effect 3 single player game.
A hint, don't play a RPG
You should play Diablo, not Baldur's Gate. Next complaint by Demz2: There is all this sex in this porn movie, why can't they just skip it and get to the plot!"
I know. I love idiots who play games with lots of plot and storyline, and then cry about it. Jesus Christ. It's Bioware you moron. Of course there is going to be lots of voice acting and plot. He'd probably go into seizures if he played Metal Gear Solid then.
Good read. I'm playing KOTOR again atm. I don't think I'd mind having my character voice-acted. It still feels like "me." I also don't mind npc companions. Most MMOs have this in some form, like pets. I would just want the number of npc companions to be small: one or two max.
I like the idea of helping others with story arcs. I also like the idea of the customization within professions.
I only didn't like one thing about the article. It repeats the fallacy that SWG failed because people didn't want to be moisture farmers. This is a reference to a statement made by people that seemed completely out of touch with the game and its players. Players have said, time and time again, that SWG did so poorly because it was broken all to hell and not nearly complete at release. Then just when it seemed they'd get one version of the game working, they'd completely replace it was something half-baked and even more broken. This was done over and over again until a number of the game's servers were recently shut-down.
When I hear the moisture farmer comment still being thrown around, I just shake my head. Guys, just make the damn game work, and don't keep changing it out from under the players. If it's broken and constantly changing, fun just isn't even possible.
Has anyone heard whether or not droids are going to be an option for NPC companions?
>
I haven't heard anything...but given that Bioware is not made up of idiots, it seems pretty obvious that this will be an option imho.
Pretty right with the movies too. Artoo was Luke's companion in this sort of a system. I guess Threepio was Leia's and Chewbacca (not a droid) was Han's. Of course, in the game the droids will probably have more combat capability than in the movies.
They said one of the classes has a unique droid companion. They never told us which class, they just hinted at it saying it was shown in a older video, the class was pointing to his droid.
Hmm, I wonder if he was actually talking about the cinematic trailer, where the Jedi Knight has a utility droid that warns him with a beep. Seems to be his companion.
I also remember reading somewhere that the Sith Warrior will indeed have a Twi'lek Smuggler companion as the one in the trailer does... So maybe the Jedi Knight actually does have a droid as one of his companions...
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 It repeats the fallacy that SWG failed because people didn't want to be moisture farmers.... (but) Players have said, time and time again, that SWG did so poorly because it was broken all to hell and not nearly complete at release.
Exactly. I remember being extremely frustrated that seemingly not a week would pass in SWG where my Creature Handler was tampered with in some thoughtless and reactionary way, of having more than half of my lots bugged for weeks and never getting a customer service response (it took only a minute or two to fix when I finally literally hunted down a CS rep in the game myself), and of having a world where not one shred of content existed but merely placeholders. But damn, I still never doubted for a minute that SWG was a revolutionary, complex, and imaginative game. Where being a "moisture farmer" could really be one helluva lot of fun.
But now it seems to me in MMORPGs we have a pattern of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is a Jedi, all the "frills" - a diverse economy, deep character customization, player driven world, etc. - are an afterthought if they even exist at all, and your story will kindly be dictated for you so there's no chance you'll make a mistake. Well to me at least, that's actually what is as boring as being a moisture farmer.
It repeats the fallacy that SWG failed because people didn't want to be moisture farmers.... (but) Players have said, time and time again, that SWG did so poorly because it was broken all to hell and not nearly complete at release.
Exactly. I remember being extremely frustrated that seemingly not a week would pass in SWG where my Creature Handler was tampered with in some thoughtless and reactionary way, of having more than half of my lots bugged for weeks and never getting a customer service response (it took only a minute or two to fix when I finally literally hunted down a CS rep in the game myself), and of having a world where not one shred of content existed but merely placeholders. But damn, I still never doubted for a minute that SWG was a revolutionary, complex, and imaginative game. Where being a "moisture farmer" could really be one helluva lot of fun.
But now it seems to me in MMORPGs we have a pattern of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is a Jedi, all the "frills" - a diverse economy, deep character customization, player driven world, etc. - are an afterthought if they even exist at all, and your story will kindly be dictated for you so there's no chance you'll make a mistake. Well to me at least, that's actually what is as boring as being a moisture farmer.
That's fair enough, but a lot of us aren't interested in that and want to focus on what Star Wars movies and books almost always focus on, conflict (often epic) between good and evil. It is silly, imho, to expect every Star Wars MMO to be a sandbox game -- in fact it is somewhat odd the first one was, imho (I am not saying that it is wrong for people to enjoy it, just that it was rather odd from a market perspective).
Anyhow, Bioware doesn't generally make Sandbox games and letting anyone be any job they wanted would be very hard from their perspective. There'd have to be a Moisture Farmer storyline, a dancer storyline, bartender storyline, waitress storyline, dishwasher storyline, etc, etc. It just wouldn't work at a reasonable price. I think it is perfectly reasonable that in deciding to make an MMO with a heavy epic story emphasis that they didn't make a Sandbox, especially given that it is a Star Wars game.
Though, I am kinda curious, if you could be a moisture farmer, bartender, or the like, and you didn't get an character storyline but the Jedi and so forth did, would you be interested in playing a character like that still? (Of course, balancing all that with combat mechanics might still be hell, but I am ignoring that for now). I guess another way of phrasing this is in what ways would you want to be "equal" or able to "measure up" to other characters if there was some dichotomy like this going on?
I understand you Drachasor, and I respect your desire to experience an epic Star Wars adventure. I just don't think that type of gaming can possibly fit very well with the MMORPG format. Because when your scripted story is done, so is the game. In other words, I don't think the idea of "end game" should have any place in this genre at all. And at one time - not that long ago really - it actually didn't. And we still managed to have fun.
But just for your information, I really wasn't (just) a pacifistic crafter in SWG. I simply used that as an example because it was possible to do only this and still remain active. And in fact, many people did. However to try and explain how a MMORPG like Pre-CU SWG could be fun without being "epic", this is roughly what the game was like for me. And I'm not trying to be dictatorial myself, or sound superior. I'm just trying to illustrate one alternative way (to the modern experience) of playing these games.
40% of time - Solo 'exploration' all across the galaxy and PvE combat for resource harvesting. Resources (as well as the items they could create) were truly dynamic in Pre-CU SWG, and would change stats and locations every week or so. Unlike the static 'nodes' and creatures you see in every current MMMORPG.
20% of time -Designing (again dynamic, not static), setting up my factories, and then marketing to player owned shops across the galaxy my specialty first aid "Stims". I'd also be buying all my other equipment from player shops during these forays, and selling off my surplus resources as well. One sideline was selling energy resources, used to power harvesters and factories.
40% of time - Group PvE (Tuskan Fort, Nightsisters, The Ackley etc.) and PvP (city and base) warfare. Usually on weekends.
Now maybe this all wasn't as brilliant or exciting as a scripted instance can be (the first time you run it, anyway), but I sure didn't end up being like a rat on a treadmill either. For example like you become doing an "end game" raid in WoW over and over again ad nauseum.
Ok it seems there's a clear separation between the social/world/online elements and the story missions... and that's why people's mouths start foaming in rage. People's minds work in watertight compartments, one side there's carebear dialogues, stories, voice-overs, "IN CHARACTER" feelings, and on the other side there's the "real-world" mess, people who go LOL and do the /dance emote, and sometimes they go "i am your father" to each other, they talk about funnee things, they do not care about shit, it's the world of PvP, where all that counts is people Pwning each other with their skillz0!!11
Instead I take for granted that this is false, and that there's no separation. That what you do in those missions strongly affects the way you relate with the whole world.
Clearly if during a mission you do somethng evil, the good people will want to stop you. Which should be a source of socialization... if you're going to enter this new instance and you know there's gonna be tight moral decisions to make, AND you know what path you intend to pursuit, you'll be interested to know exactly what kind of morally-aligned players you have around you... because suddenly, after making a choice, you may hear that sinister fizzling sound of a saber arming up behind your back, so you'll want to DISCUSS the story steps so far, CONVINCE persons of the best things to do(like Obi-Wan would try to convince Anakin that He's descending into FartVaderness). And it's not for stupid reasons of stupider role-playing carebear In-character lore nonsense with THEE's and THOU's, it's just the way you play this game in the hope of being any succesful.
Sure it's not that easy to make this system works, but it can be done. It's the most reasonable solution to make the game work, it's coherent with Star Wars, it's coherent with Bioware's trademark, and it COULD be coherent with a massive persistant world... in ways i can't yet understand.
Yet some here keep separating story from open-world, Kotor from Tor, and keep arguing. Why is it so impossible to see that everything(morality with playerVsplayer, thus story with real-time) can be easily reconciled?
Originally posted by Mandalore How do they plan to add new (fully voiced over!) content for more than 100 hours every 30-60 days?
Far from impossible. Cartoons do the equivalent all the time (take into account that new content isn't going to be people constantly speaking, because it will also involve a lot of fighting and so forth, so the voice content isn't nearly as bad as you might think).
Even easy with the right software.
Eg. Icarus made quite a big deal out of the lip-synching software incorporated into their platform. Just record the voice acting and the NPCs flap their gums when they should.
Even easy with the right software. Eg. Icarus made quite a big deal out of the lip-synching software incorporated into their platform. Just record the voice acting and the NPCs flap their gums when they should.
Whoop-de-doo.
Thank goodness they have their priorities in order.
Who needs good gameplay when you can have smooth lip-syncing.
/sarcasm
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Even easy with the right software. Eg. Icarus made quite a big deal out of the lip-synching software incorporated into their platform. Just record the voice acting and the NPCs flap their gums when they should.
Whoop-de-doo.
Thank goodness they have their priorities in order.
Who needs good gameplay when you can have smooth lip-syncing.
/sarcasm
Our only point was adding this stuff IS trivial. It doesn't have to have any serious impact on the rest of the game.
Err, why do you hate TOR again, Doubter? (I know you hate most stuff, : ) , just wondered what the particulars about TOR were)
Originally posted by Drachasor Our only point was adding this stuff IS trivial. It doesn't have to have any serious impact on the rest of the game.
Err, why do you hate TOR again, Doubter? (I know you hate most stuff, : ) , just wondered what the particulars about TOR were)
I don't HATE it (you know which game I hate). I do hate the apparent focus on solo play (and story, which will amount to the same thing), and the IP-breaking combat system where targets can take multiple lightsabre or blaster hits and keep fighting.
I expect a game to respect the IP. Maybe someday that will happen.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Drachasor Our only point was adding this stuff IS trivial. It doesn't have to have any serious impact on the rest of the game.
Err, why do you hate TOR again, Doubter? (I know you hate most stuff, : ) , just wondered what the particulars about TOR were)
I don't HATE it (you know which game I hate). I do hate the apparent focus on solo play (and story, which will amount to the same thing), and the IP-breaking combat system where targets can take multiple lightsabre or blaster hits and keep fighting.
I expect a game to respect the IP. Maybe someday that will happen.
I kid, I kid. Well, the "solo" gameplay lets you do it with friends, so it is optionally solo. Not bad, I don't think. I admit the multiple hits from everything is a bit silly (though Leia handles getting shot once ok). It would have been nice if they had health as "stamina" or something and people dodged or avoided atttacks, but "hits" would reduce stamina, and then when stamina ran out, the next attack would kill them. I can accept a bit of departure from IP reality here though (tons of games and pretty much all MMOs are like this).
Though, they do have blocking animated to an extent at least. That's a step in the right direction.
Originally posted by Drachasor I kid, I kid. I know. Well, the "solo" gameplay lets you do it with friends, so it is optionally solo. Not bad, I don't think. I think grouping needs to be encouraged, not just 'allowed'. I admit the multiple hits from everything is a bit silly (though Leia handles getting shot once ok). It would have been nice if they had health as "stamina" or something and people dodged or avoided atttacks, but "hits" would reduce stamina, and then when stamina ran out, the next attack would kill them. I can accept a bit of departure from IP reality here though (tons of games and pretty much all MMOs are like this). That's the problem - it's not like Star Wars, and it is like the other MMORPGs. Though, they do have blocking animated to an extent at least. That's a step in the right direction.
Yes. HOW could you have a game with Jedi in it without blocking blaster shots? I wouldn't touch it.
Then again - HOW could you have a Star Wars game without space battles?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Drachasor I kid, I kid. I know. Well, the "solo" gameplay lets you do it with friends, so it is optionally solo. Not bad, I don't think. I think grouping needs to be encouraged, not just 'allowed'. I admit the multiple hits from everything is a bit silly (though Leia handles getting shot once ok). It would have been nice if they had health as "stamina" or something and people dodged or avoided atttacks, but "hits" would reduce stamina, and then when stamina ran out, the next attack would kill them. I can accept a bit of departure from IP reality here though (tons of games and pretty much all MMOs are like this). That's the problem - it's not like Star Wars, and it is like the other MMORPGs. Though, they do have blocking animated to an extent at least. That's a step in the right direction.
Yes. HOW could you have a game with Jedi in it without blocking blaster shots? I wouldn't touch it.
Then again - HOW could you have a Star Wars game without space battles?
Well, I'd imagine they'll dynamically scale content to group size (at least non-raids/dungeons or whatever they call those). So unlike a lot of games where there is soloing, here you won't be punished if you group. People like grouping, so I imagine it will work pretty well (I plan on doing a lot of this stuff with my brother, so it should work out a LOT better than games like WoW). Hopefully they'll be some fun group-only dynamics (but I admit it doesn't look like this will happen, then again almost no games have this so it isn't that surprising).
They do have Lightsabers blocking blasters and other sabers, but it isn't there as much as one would like. Like I said, a step in the right direction. There are space battles too, but seems quite possible we won't be flying our own ships at first (at least they haven't mentioned anything about it). Probably get that in time. A disappointment to be sure, but I can personally live with it as long as we get it within a year or two of release. Assuming the gameplay is solid, challenging, and largely feels right (admittedly it won't feel 100% right because of soaking ability of enemies regarding blasters and sabers, but I think it will be good enough). We shall see how it looks when it is getting close to release.
One thing I would have liked to have seen in the combat system is an equivalent of Storm Trooper Syndrome. Let PC take multiple hits (or give them a REALLY high dogde rating) when attacked by non-boss mobs and have one hit kills versus them.
PvP? I dunno. Paintball mode would preclude combat healing, but combat healing doesn't feel like Star Wars to me, anyway. Perhaps KOTOR had it. I don't know.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It repeats the fallacy that SWG failed because people didn't want to be moisture farmers.... (but) Players have said, time and time again, that SWG did so poorly because it was broken all to hell and not nearly complete at release.
Exactly. I remember being extremely frustrated that seemingly not a week would pass in SWG where my Creature Handler was tampered with in some thoughtless and reactionary way, of having more than half of my lots bugged for weeks and never getting a customer service response (it took only a minute or two to fix when I finally literally hunted down a CS rep in the game myself), and of having a world where not one shred of content existed but merely placeholders. But damn, I still never doubted for a minute that SWG was a revolutionary, complex, and imaginative game. Where being a "moisture farmer" could really be one helluva lot of fun.
But now it seems to me in MMORPGs we have a pattern of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is a Jedi, all the "frills" - a diverse economy, deep character customization, player driven world, etc. - are an afterthought if they even exist at all, and your story will kindly be dictated for you so there's no chance you'll make a mistake. Well to me at least, that's actually what is as boring as being a moisture farmer.
That's fair enough, but a lot of us aren't interested in that and want to focus on what Star Wars movies and books almost always focus on, conflict (often epic) between good and evil. It is silly, imho, to expect every Star Wars MMO to be a sandbox game -- in fact it is somewhat odd the first one was, imho (I am not saying that it is wrong for people to enjoy it, just that it was rather odd from a market perspective).
Anyhow, Bioware doesn't generally make Sandbox games and letting anyone be any job they wanted would be very hard from their perspective. There'd have to be a Moisture Farmer storyline, a dancer storyline, bartender storyline, waitress storyline, dishwasher storyline, etc, etc. It just wouldn't work at a reasonable price. I think it is perfectly reasonable that in deciding to make an MMO with a heavy epic story emphasis that they didn't make a Sandbox, especially given that it is a Star Wars game.
Though, I am kinda curious, if you could be a moisture farmer, bartender, or the like, and you didn't get an character storyline but the Jedi and so forth did, would you be interested in playing a character like that still? (Of course, balancing all that with combat mechanics might still be hell, but I am ignoring that for now). I guess another way of phrasing this is in what ways would you want to be "equal" or able to "measure up" to other characters if there was some dichotomy like this going on?
I enjoyed reading this response, and I'd like to comment on it. First of all, I'd be very happy with a story-driven bioware type of MMO. It doesn't have to be a sand-box game. I was commenting on the fallacy that blamed SWG's failure on the fact that it was a sandbox game. It was a badly broken, not nearly complete game that underwent constant revisions. The fact that it was sandbox was coincidental, not the reaon for its failure imho.
Why a sandbox game to begin with? I think that was Koster's vision, and he had a proven track record at that point. It would have been interesting to see his vision realized in SWG, but it never was--not even close.
Some of the bigwigs at SOE also had this crazy notion that if you were a bartender, you needed a bartender story arc and quests. We never wanted that; that's whack. Anyone who thought this didn't understand the game design. I was a pistoleer, a scout and a musician at the same time. That was the beauty of the skill system. I could play the horn for fun if I wanted, and then blow someone's head off in a duel or if they had a temporary enemy flag for shooting NPCs of my faction. I could go out to get lightsaber pearls from dragons, set up camp in the wilderness and provide music buffs. I didn't need a music buff quest arc, or camping quests. Many diferent skills (camping, tracking, trapping, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, healing, pistol shooting etc.) were all handy for something like dragon hunting. Likewise they were handy for other content areas like taking on the Tusken Raiders, or hijacking an Imperial Corvette.
Also, SWG had plenty of "epic good versus evil" stuff going on. What's more StarWars than being a bounty-hunter, a or trying to become a jedi while the whole galaxy is hunting you? The Galactic Civil War in the original game was also extermely "epic." What's more StarWars than putting on your Stormie armour and blasting rebels out of Anchor Head? So, "epic StarWars" and "sanbox" are not mutually exclusive.
Having said all of that, I still like where Bioware seems to be going with this game. It's got the epic StarWars gig (jedi versus sith). It also has some other nice options, some variety, and the ability to customize. I also happen to love the way Bioware adds story to their games and can't wait to see what this looks like in an MMO.
Even more than that, I like the way Bioware thinks about games. They don't see them as some gimmicky cash cow that is merely a means to access people's wallets online. No, they like games, and they like to make them well (in my experience). They seem to take pride in their work, and probably want people to enjoy themselves when they play. That also seemed to be missing from SWG. I think a lot of the devs had that mind you, but the suits missed the bus.
I just hope at some point their will be ship to ship combat. That was another epic part of Star Wars. It does not NEED to be in at launch but in an Xpac or patch would be great. I know atm Bioware's main focus is the aspect of every thing being voiced, storyline,etc..etc. witch can be a lot to handle. and honestly (as ive stated in posts before) playing a game that will actually put the RPG back in RPG will be nice. Most mmo's...for me...are getting staggnet kill XX, Find XX and return XX, Collect XX to get XX. Sure the other mmos have storyline per say, but most people these days are in a rush to level and dont bother with the quest text, enjoyment of the game and such, its a give me give me got a go level attitude trend I have been seeing. I have rushed to many games (or been with my buds who HAVE to rush) and looked back going Huh i really did not see much of the game content, or enjoyed leveling...get to the end and off to epics land :P. Now Im not saying that people who do the whole Rush To Level dont enjoy it, thats the way they probally enjoy a game. I just think there is TO much of it imo. Lol hell its starting to sound like some times gamers are treating games like they are married to it "this needs to change, this is not good enough, if it dont have this Im out of here, Its not Purrttey enough, so on and so forth.
The first article I've read that mentions the rough feel of the game, but that's to be expected at this point. It's a good reminder the game is still far in development.
The article also mentions the same problem with full VO that I'll have. I prefer having my own character silent even if I'm responding to NPCs. I wouldn't even mind if other player characters were all silent and only NPCs talked, but it's not a huge deal.
The first article I've read that mentions the rough feel of the game, but that's to be expected at this point. It's a good reminder the game is still far in development. The article also mentions the same problem with full VO that I'll have. I prefer having my own character silent even if I'm responding to NPCs. I wouldn't even mind if other player characters were all silent and only NPCs talked, but it's not a huge deal.
Well, I think they could easily add an option so that your character was silent to you (but other people would hear him talk). I do think you kinda hit on the reason why they have your character talk -- when you are in a group dialogue scene it would be awkward if the NPCs all talked but you had to read whatever a PC said to those NPCs.
I really don't understand why people complain about "instanced content" then turn around and complain because they have to farm 20 leathers from some stupid bear where 30 others are Farming the same leathers for the same quest on a 15% drop rate. Good show.
That comment made me smile
Interesting, thank you for writing! I like some healthy criticism.
Your write-up does have a couple of differences from other articles written about the same hands-on:
*You found the demo rough on the edges while several others found it *rather smooth* already, I wonder where the difference in opinion comes from.
*You say there was a lot of voice acting and cutscenes on par with DA:O while some other interviews detail the cutscenes/dialogues are less lenghty than in previous BW games.
*You seem less enthusiastic about the lack of auto attack / combat, how did you experience this?
The thing that worries me most about this interview, is that you say the AI still needs a lot of work; that was a very important feature for me, seeing NPC's duck for cover and generally behave smarter than your run of the mill mmo.
I hope they'll work on that.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The PC VO is a potential game breaker for me, what if I don't like the Imperial Agent VO... What if I want my toon to sound European or Asian...
It partially ruined Mass Effect for me too, how am I to feel immersed as (for example) an evil black warrior when my character is always going to have the same cheesy american accent and dialogue....
Please BioWare, let us imagine our character's dialogue. Unless you want to spend a few more years recording enough VO for us to choose from.
The PC VO is a potential game breaker for me, what if I don't like the Imperial Agent VO... What if I want my toon to sound European or Asian... It partially ruined Mass Effect for me too, how am I to feel immersed as (for example) an evil black warrior when my character is always going to have the same cheesy american accent and dialogue....
Please BioWare, let us imagine our character's dialogue. Unless you want to spend a few more years recording enough VO for us to choose from.
Very valid and good point. Would be nice to maybe have a few options on your characters voice choice at least. there are some mmos that allow this in a similar aspect.
I have been following this game since the website (official) came into existence. I am of course looking forward to it, and have scoured the website. However; I have never been able to figure out in any sense when this is intended to be released. Could someone figure out even within half a year time span what this date might be?
I don't need to know a definite especially because this is in development, and I would like this to be developed. At least as fully as they can get it before they let thousands of actual players in and see how the game environment works with a large number of players. So can someone ask Bioware what half of what year this may be released?
I have been following this game since the website (official) came into existence. I am of course looking forward to it, and have scoured the website. However; I have never been able to figure out in any sense when this is intended to be released. Could someone figure out even within half a year time span what this date might be? I don't need to know a definite especially because this is in development, and I would like this to be developed. At least as fully as they can get it before they let thousands of actual players in and see how the game environment works with a large number of players. So can someone ask Bioware what half of what year this may be released?
People can ask all they want..but Bioware isn't just going to give some Estimate or Date in an interview. It'd be Business Suicide. Any game company worth their salt is going to hold it close to the vest right now with a WoW expansion looming. They could go Yea "March" and you know what..2 days before march BOOM WoW hits ...destroys all hope. They've done it time and again when ever there's any sign of competition. Its both smart and evil but thats how Blizz works with WoW.
Considering its not in full closed beta yet..just techincal beta...its probably atleast a year or close to a year before release.
They'll announce it when they're ready......interviewers will just have to bang their heads like the rest of us.
Comments
A hint, don't play a RPG
You should play Diablo, not Baldur's Gate. Next complaint by Demz2: There is all this sex in this porn movie, why can't they just skip it and get to the plot!"
I know. I love idiots who play games with lots of plot and storyline, and then cry about it. Jesus Christ. It's Bioware you moron. Of course there is going to be lots of voice acting and plot. He'd probably go into seizures if he played Metal Gear Solid then.
Good read. I'm playing KOTOR again atm. I don't think I'd mind having my character voice-acted. It still feels like "me." I also don't mind npc companions. Most MMOs have this in some form, like pets. I would just want the number of npc companions to be small: one or two max.
I like the idea of helping others with story arcs. I also like the idea of the customization within professions.
I only didn't like one thing about the article. It repeats the fallacy that SWG failed because people didn't want to be moisture farmers. This is a reference to a statement made by people that seemed completely out of touch with the game and its players. Players have said, time and time again, that SWG did so poorly because it was broken all to hell and not nearly complete at release. Then just when it seemed they'd get one version of the game working, they'd completely replace it was something half-baked and even more broken. This was done over and over again until a number of the game's servers were recently shut-down.
When I hear the moisture farmer comment still being thrown around, I just shake my head. Guys, just make the damn game work, and don't keep changing it out from under the players. If it's broken and constantly changing, fun just isn't even possible.
I haven't heard anything...but given that Bioware is not made up of idiots, it seems pretty obvious that this will be an option imho.
Pretty right with the movies too. Artoo was Luke's companion in this sort of a system. I guess Threepio was Leia's and Chewbacca (not a droid) was Han's. Of course, in the game the droids will probably have more combat capability than in the movies.
They said one of the classes has a unique droid companion. They never told us which class, they just hinted at it saying it was shown in a older video, the class was pointing to his droid.
Hmm, I wonder if he was actually talking about the cinematic trailer, where the Jedi Knight has a utility droid that warns him with a beep. Seems to be his companion.
I also remember reading somewhere that the Sith Warrior will indeed have a Twi'lek Smuggler companion as the one in the trailer does... So maybe the Jedi Knight actually does have a droid as one of his companions...
heh i get it, Luke had R2.
Exactly. I remember being extremely frustrated that seemingly not a week would pass in SWG where my Creature Handler was tampered with in some thoughtless and reactionary way, of having more than half of my lots bugged for weeks and never getting a customer service response (it took only a minute or two to fix when I finally literally hunted down a CS rep in the game myself), and of having a world where not one shred of content existed but merely placeholders. But damn, I still never doubted for a minute that SWG was a revolutionary, complex, and imaginative game. Where being a "moisture farmer" could really be one helluva lot of fun.
But now it seems to me in MMORPGs we have a pattern of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is a Jedi, all the "frills" - a diverse economy, deep character customization, player driven world, etc. - are an afterthought if they even exist at all, and your story will kindly be dictated for you so there's no chance you'll make a mistake. Well to me at least, that's actually what is as boring as being a moisture farmer.
Exactly. I remember being extremely frustrated that seemingly not a week would pass in SWG where my Creature Handler was tampered with in some thoughtless and reactionary way, of having more than half of my lots bugged for weeks and never getting a customer service response (it took only a minute or two to fix when I finally literally hunted down a CS rep in the game myself), and of having a world where not one shred of content existed but merely placeholders. But damn, I still never doubted for a minute that SWG was a revolutionary, complex, and imaginative game. Where being a "moisture farmer" could really be one helluva lot of fun.
But now it seems to me in MMORPGs we have a pattern of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is a Jedi, all the "frills" - a diverse economy, deep character customization, player driven world, etc. - are an afterthought if they even exist at all, and your story will kindly be dictated for you so there's no chance you'll make a mistake. Well to me at least, that's actually what is as boring as being a moisture farmer.
That's fair enough, but a lot of us aren't interested in that and want to focus on what Star Wars movies and books almost always focus on, conflict (often epic) between good and evil. It is silly, imho, to expect every Star Wars MMO to be a sandbox game -- in fact it is somewhat odd the first one was, imho (I am not saying that it is wrong for people to enjoy it, just that it was rather odd from a market perspective).
Anyhow, Bioware doesn't generally make Sandbox games and letting anyone be any job they wanted would be very hard from their perspective. There'd have to be a Moisture Farmer storyline, a dancer storyline, bartender storyline, waitress storyline, dishwasher storyline, etc, etc. It just wouldn't work at a reasonable price. I think it is perfectly reasonable that in deciding to make an MMO with a heavy epic story emphasis that they didn't make a Sandbox, especially given that it is a Star Wars game.
Though, I am kinda curious, if you could be a moisture farmer, bartender, or the like, and you didn't get an character storyline but the Jedi and so forth did, would you be interested in playing a character like that still? (Of course, balancing all that with combat mechanics might still be hell, but I am ignoring that for now). I guess another way of phrasing this is in what ways would you want to be "equal" or able to "measure up" to other characters if there was some dichotomy like this going on?
I understand you Drachasor, and I respect your desire to experience an epic Star Wars adventure. I just don't think that type of gaming can possibly fit very well with the MMORPG format. Because when your scripted story is done, so is the game. In other words, I don't think the idea of "end game" should have any place in this genre at all. And at one time - not that long ago really - it actually didn't. And we still managed to have fun.
But just for your information, I really wasn't (just) a pacifistic crafter in SWG. I simply used that as an example because it was possible to do only this and still remain active. And in fact, many people did. However to try and explain how a MMORPG like Pre-CU SWG could be fun without being "epic", this is roughly what the game was like for me. And I'm not trying to be dictatorial myself, or sound superior. I'm just trying to illustrate one alternative way (to the modern experience) of playing these games.
40% of time - Solo 'exploration' all across the galaxy and PvE combat for resource harvesting. Resources (as well as the items they could create) were truly dynamic in Pre-CU SWG, and would change stats and locations every week or so. Unlike the static 'nodes' and creatures you see in every current MMMORPG.
20% of time -Designing (again dynamic, not static), setting up my factories, and then marketing to player owned shops across the galaxy my specialty first aid "Stims". I'd also be buying all my other equipment from player shops during these forays, and selling off my surplus resources as well. One sideline was selling energy resources, used to power harvesters and factories.
40% of time - Group PvE (Tuskan Fort, Nightsisters, The Ackley etc.) and PvP (city and base) warfare. Usually on weekends.
Now maybe this all wasn't as brilliant or exciting as a scripted instance can be (the first time you run it, anyway), but I sure didn't end up being like a rat on a treadmill either. For example like you become doing an "end game" raid in WoW over and over again ad nauseum.
Ok it seems there's a clear separation between the social/world/online elements and the story missions... and that's why people's mouths start foaming in rage. People's minds work in watertight compartments, one side there's carebear dialogues, stories, voice-overs, "IN CHARACTER" feelings, and on the other side there's the "real-world" mess, people who go LOL and do the /dance emote, and sometimes they go "i am your father" to each other, they talk about funnee things, they do not care about shit, it's the world of PvP, where all that counts is people Pwning each other with their skillz0!!11
Instead I take for granted that this is false, and that there's no separation. That what you do in those missions strongly affects the way you relate with the whole world.
Clearly if during a mission you do somethng evil, the good people will want to stop you. Which should be a source of socialization... if you're going to enter this new instance and you know there's gonna be tight moral decisions to make, AND you know what path you intend to pursuit, you'll be interested to know exactly what kind of morally-aligned players you have around you... because suddenly, after making a choice, you may hear that sinister fizzling sound of a saber arming up behind your back, so you'll want to DISCUSS the story steps so far, CONVINCE persons of the best things to do(like Obi-Wan would try to convince Anakin that He's descending into FartVaderness). And it's not for stupid reasons of stupider role-playing carebear In-character lore nonsense with THEE's and THOU's, it's just the way you play this game in the hope of being any succesful.
Sure it's not that easy to make this system works, but it can be done. It's the most reasonable solution to make the game work, it's coherent with Star Wars, it's coherent with Bioware's trademark, and it COULD be coherent with a massive persistant world... in ways i can't yet understand.
Yet some here keep separating story from open-world, Kotor from Tor, and keep arguing. Why is it so impossible to see that everything(morality with playerVsplayer, thus story with real-time) can be easily reconciled?
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Far from impossible. Cartoons do the equivalent all the time (take into account that new content isn't going to be people constantly speaking, because it will also involve a lot of fighting and so forth, so the voice content isn't nearly as bad as you might think).
Even easy with the right software.
Eg. Icarus made quite a big deal out of the lip-synching software incorporated into their platform. Just record the voice acting and the NPCs flap their gums when they should.
Whoop-de-doo.
Thank goodness they have their priorities in order.
Who needs good gameplay when you can have smooth lip-syncing.
/sarcasm
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Whoop-de-doo.
Thank goodness they have their priorities in order.
Who needs good gameplay when you can have smooth lip-syncing.
/sarcasm
Our only point was adding this stuff IS trivial. It doesn't have to have any serious impact on the rest of the game.
Err, why do you hate TOR again, Doubter? (I know you hate most stuff, : ) , just wondered what the particulars about TOR were)
I don't HATE it (you know which game I hate). I do hate the apparent focus on solo play (and story, which will amount to the same thing), and the IP-breaking combat system where targets can take multiple lightsabre or blaster hits and keep fighting.
I expect a game to respect the IP. Maybe someday that will happen.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I don't HATE it (you know which game I hate). I do hate the apparent focus on solo play (and story, which will amount to the same thing), and the IP-breaking combat system where targets can take multiple lightsabre or blaster hits and keep fighting.
I expect a game to respect the IP. Maybe someday that will happen.
I kid, I kid. Well, the "solo" gameplay lets you do it with friends, so it is optionally solo. Not bad, I don't think. I admit the multiple hits from everything is a bit silly (though Leia handles getting shot once ok). It would have been nice if they had health as "stamina" or something and people dodged or avoided atttacks, but "hits" would reduce stamina, and then when stamina ran out, the next attack would kill them. I can accept a bit of departure from IP reality here though (tons of games and pretty much all MMOs are like this).
Though, they do have blocking animated to an extent at least. That's a step in the right direction.
Yes. HOW could you have a game with Jedi in it without blocking blaster shots? I wouldn't touch it.
Then again - HOW could you have a Star Wars game without space battles?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yes. HOW could you have a game with Jedi in it without blocking blaster shots? I wouldn't touch it.
Then again - HOW could you have a Star Wars game without space battles?
Well, I'd imagine they'll dynamically scale content to group size (at least non-raids/dungeons or whatever they call those). So unlike a lot of games where there is soloing, here you won't be punished if you group. People like grouping, so I imagine it will work pretty well (I plan on doing a lot of this stuff with my brother, so it should work out a LOT better than games like WoW). Hopefully they'll be some fun group-only dynamics (but I admit it doesn't look like this will happen, then again almost no games have this so it isn't that surprising).
They do have Lightsabers blocking blasters and other sabers, but it isn't there as much as one would like. Like I said, a step in the right direction. There are space battles too, but seems quite possible we won't be flying our own ships at first (at least they haven't mentioned anything about it). Probably get that in time. A disappointment to be sure, but I can personally live with it as long as we get it within a year or two of release. Assuming the gameplay is solid, challenging, and largely feels right (admittedly it won't feel 100% right because of soaking ability of enemies regarding blasters and sabers, but I think it will be good enough). We shall see how it looks when it is getting close to release.
One thing I would have liked to have seen in the combat system is an equivalent of Storm Trooper Syndrome. Let PC take multiple hits (or give them a REALLY high dogde rating) when attacked by non-boss mobs and have one hit kills versus them.
PvP? I dunno. Paintball mode would preclude combat healing, but combat healing doesn't feel like Star Wars to me, anyway. Perhaps KOTOR had it. I don't know.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Exactly. I remember being extremely frustrated that seemingly not a week would pass in SWG where my Creature Handler was tampered with in some thoughtless and reactionary way, of having more than half of my lots bugged for weeks and never getting a customer service response (it took only a minute or two to fix when I finally literally hunted down a CS rep in the game myself), and of having a world where not one shred of content existed but merely placeholders. But damn, I still never doubted for a minute that SWG was a revolutionary, complex, and imaginative game. Where being a "moisture farmer" could really be one helluva lot of fun.
But now it seems to me in MMORPGs we have a pattern of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is a Jedi, all the "frills" - a diverse economy, deep character customization, player driven world, etc. - are an afterthought if they even exist at all, and your story will kindly be dictated for you so there's no chance you'll make a mistake. Well to me at least, that's actually what is as boring as being a moisture farmer.
That's fair enough, but a lot of us aren't interested in that and want to focus on what Star Wars movies and books almost always focus on, conflict (often epic) between good and evil. It is silly, imho, to expect every Star Wars MMO to be a sandbox game -- in fact it is somewhat odd the first one was, imho (I am not saying that it is wrong for people to enjoy it, just that it was rather odd from a market perspective).
Anyhow, Bioware doesn't generally make Sandbox games and letting anyone be any job they wanted would be very hard from their perspective. There'd have to be a Moisture Farmer storyline, a dancer storyline, bartender storyline, waitress storyline, dishwasher storyline, etc, etc. It just wouldn't work at a reasonable price. I think it is perfectly reasonable that in deciding to make an MMO with a heavy epic story emphasis that they didn't make a Sandbox, especially given that it is a Star Wars game.
Though, I am kinda curious, if you could be a moisture farmer, bartender, or the like, and you didn't get an character storyline but the Jedi and so forth did, would you be interested in playing a character like that still? (Of course, balancing all that with combat mechanics might still be hell, but I am ignoring that for now). I guess another way of phrasing this is in what ways would you want to be "equal" or able to "measure up" to other characters if there was some dichotomy like this going on?
I enjoyed reading this response, and I'd like to comment on it. First of all, I'd be very happy with a story-driven bioware type of MMO. It doesn't have to be a sand-box game. I was commenting on the fallacy that blamed SWG's failure on the fact that it was a sandbox game. It was a badly broken, not nearly complete game that underwent constant revisions. The fact that it was sandbox was coincidental, not the reaon for its failure imho.
Why a sandbox game to begin with? I think that was Koster's vision, and he had a proven track record at that point. It would have been interesting to see his vision realized in SWG, but it never was--not even close.
Some of the bigwigs at SOE also had this crazy notion that if you were a bartender, you needed a bartender story arc and quests. We never wanted that; that's whack. Anyone who thought this didn't understand the game design. I was a pistoleer, a scout and a musician at the same time. That was the beauty of the skill system. I could play the horn for fun if I wanted, and then blow someone's head off in a duel or if they had a temporary enemy flag for shooting NPCs of my faction. I could go out to get lightsaber pearls from dragons, set up camp in the wilderness and provide music buffs. I didn't need a music buff quest arc, or camping quests. Many diferent skills (camping, tracking, trapping, armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, healing, pistol shooting etc.) were all handy for something like dragon hunting. Likewise they were handy for other content areas like taking on the Tusken Raiders, or hijacking an Imperial Corvette.
Also, SWG had plenty of "epic good versus evil" stuff going on. What's more StarWars than being a bounty-hunter, a or trying to become a jedi while the whole galaxy is hunting you? The Galactic Civil War in the original game was also extermely "epic." What's more StarWars than putting on your Stormie armour and blasting rebels out of Anchor Head? So, "epic StarWars" and "sanbox" are not mutually exclusive.
Having said all of that, I still like where Bioware seems to be going with this game. It's got the epic StarWars gig (jedi versus sith). It also has some other nice options, some variety, and the ability to customize. I also happen to love the way Bioware adds story to their games and can't wait to see what this looks like in an MMO.
Even more than that, I like the way Bioware thinks about games. They don't see them as some gimmicky cash cow that is merely a means to access people's wallets online. No, they like games, and they like to make them well (in my experience). They seem to take pride in their work, and probably want people to enjoy themselves when they play. That also seemed to be missing from SWG. I think a lot of the devs had that mind you, but the suits missed the bus.
I just hope at some point their will be ship to ship combat. That was another epic part of Star Wars. It does not NEED to be in at launch but in an Xpac or patch would be great. I know atm Bioware's main focus is the aspect of every thing being voiced, storyline,etc..etc. witch can be a lot to handle. and honestly (as ive stated in posts before) playing a game that will actually put the RPG back in RPG will be nice. Most mmo's...for me...are getting staggnet kill XX, Find XX and return XX, Collect XX to get XX. Sure the other mmos have storyline per say, but most people these days are in a rush to level and dont bother with the quest text, enjoyment of the game and such, its a give me give me got a go level attitude trend I have been seeing. I have rushed to many games (or been with my buds who HAVE to rush) and looked back going Huh i really did not see much of the game content, or enjoyed leveling...get to the end and off to epics land :P. Now Im not saying that people who do the whole Rush To Level dont enjoy it, thats the way they probally enjoy a game. I just think there is TO much of it imo. Lol hell its starting to sound like some times gamers are treating games like they are married to it "this needs to change, this is not good enough, if it dont have this Im out of here, Its not Purrttey enough, so on and so forth.
The first article I've read that mentions the rough feel of the game, but that's to be expected at this point. It's a good reminder the game is still far in development.
The article also mentions the same problem with full VO that I'll have. I prefer having my own character silent even if I'm responding to NPCs. I wouldn't even mind if other player characters were all silent and only NPCs talked, but it's not a huge deal.
Well, I think they could easily add an option so that your character was silent to you (but other people would hear him talk). I do think you kinda hit on the reason why they have your character talk -- when you are in a group dialogue scene it would be awkward if the NPCs all talked but you had to read whatever a PC said to those NPCs.
That comment made me smile
Interesting, thank you for writing! I like some healthy criticism.
Your write-up does have a couple of differences from other articles written about the same hands-on:
*You found the demo rough on the edges while several others found it *rather smooth* already, I wonder where the difference in opinion comes from.
*You say there was a lot of voice acting and cutscenes on par with DA:O while some other interviews detail the cutscenes/dialogues are less lenghty than in previous BW games.
*You seem less enthusiastic about the lack of auto attack / combat, how did you experience this?
The thing that worries me most about this interview, is that you say the AI still needs a lot of work; that was a very important feature for me, seeing NPC's duck for cover and generally behave smarter than your run of the mill mmo.
I hope they'll work on that.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The PC VO is a potential game breaker for me, what if I don't like the Imperial Agent VO... What if I want my toon to sound European or Asian...
It partially ruined Mass Effect for me too, how am I to feel immersed as (for example) an evil black warrior when my character is always going to have the same cheesy american accent and dialogue....
Please BioWare, let us imagine our character's dialogue. Unless you want to spend a few more years recording enough VO for us to choose from.
Impressive...most impressive *wrings hands*
Very valid and good point. Would be nice to maybe have a few options on your characters voice choice at least. there are some mmos that allow this in a similar aspect.
I have been following this game since the website (official) came into existence. I am of course looking forward to it, and have scoured the website. However; I have never been able to figure out in any sense when this is intended to be released. Could someone figure out even within half a year time span what this date might be?
I don't need to know a definite especially because this is in development, and I would like this to be developed. At least as fully as they can get it before they let thousands of actual players in and see how the game environment works with a large number of players. So can someone ask Bioware what half of what year this may be released?
People can ask all they want..but Bioware isn't just going to give some Estimate or Date in an interview. It'd be Business Suicide. Any game company worth their salt is going to hold it close to the vest right now with a WoW expansion looming. They could go Yea "March" and you know what..2 days before march BOOM WoW hits ...destroys all hope. They've done it time and again when ever there's any sign of competition. Its both smart and evil but thats how Blizz works with WoW.
Considering its not in full closed beta yet..just techincal beta...its probably atleast a year or close to a year before release.
They'll announce it when they're ready......interviewers will just have to bang their heads like the rest of us.