Why is LOTRO PvP a joke compared to other MMOs?

CrittRockets

So just curious why LOTRO doesnt have any open-world PvP at all? It would be a good game with 1 PvP server. I understand that most people just love to pay 15$ a month to kill computers and get a false sense of accomplishement but some people like playing against other players. The system they have now where monsters fight good guys is pretty weak, basically just follow a raid around and fight the other raid. There is little-to-no small group or 1v1 opportunities. The "class" system on the monster side is completely different from the good guys making balance very hard to achieve.  Its basically a lame attempt to incorporate the "lore" of the LOTR world into the game where good guys fight bad guys. 

So why not make a system where elves can attack other elves in the real world (outside moors) and etc.  If LOTR had a real PvP system this game would attract not only all the people who love to kill mobs all day and pay real money for it but also people who are avoiding this game because there is no real PvP.

Kyleran

It is not a PVP oriented game, pretty simple really.  It would destroy the lore to have elf vs elf combat, and the game tries to remain as true to the lore as possible.

Even the PVP they have is realistic in this way, takes far more monster players to beat a player character, much as in the lore (and particularly the movies) where the heroes could kill dozens if not hundreds and the hordes kept on coming.

Stop looking for balanced classes too, the challenge in real open world PVP is to overcome your opponent regardless of the other sides make up.  You'd have ot play a game like DAOC to appreciate this, and not keep looking for balance like these games are FPS'ers.

 

CrittRockets

How does elf vs elf go against the lore? Because you never saw an elf fight another elf in the movie?

I'm pretty sure the "lore" of LOTR doesn't equal middle earth being a heavenly land where every man fights for a noble cause and every elf is pure and true. Seriously? People do bad things and its going AGAINST the lore to force people to be a good guy. Just because you look like an elf doesn't mean you have to be a good guy.

zeowyrm

Originally posted by CrittRockets


How does elf vs elf go against the lore? Because you never saw an elf fight another elf in the movie?
I'm pretty sure the "lore" of LOTR doesn't equal middle earth being a heavenly land where every man fights for a noble cause and every elf is pure and true. Seriously? People do bad things and its going AGAINST the lore to force people to be a good guy. Just because you look like an elf doesn't mean you have to be a good guy.

 

3 points

1) Read the books.  Game is based on the core trilogy of books, not the movies.

2)Its just not a PvP game.  PvMP as it is was a tacked on system.

3)Saul Zentz group (or whatever it is), the ones that own the rights to LOTR, said no.  So if there were PvP added in, they could yank the license, and the game would shut down.

Nebless

Well there could be a few reasons:

I heard/read/seen somewhere that the Tolkien estate didn't want people to play as 'bad' guys.  While they seem to have allowed a little in the way of monster quests (shaking down the hobbits for pipeweed etc...) it's not as immersive as playing an Orc from day 1, level 1 to cap

The dev's cut the number of quest writing in half by only doing the free people

It's based on the books which is a story about the free people

Kind of a take your pick thing.

I actually think monster play was just an after thought to give playings something to do while waiting for the next expansion.

Do I personally think open-world Pvp would work?  No.  Orc's burning, killing and looting in the towns would kill the rest of the game.

Now a realm vs realm type of thing where there was a Pvp border zone (like in the North Downs up the road from Trestlebridge once you move into the barrow land area) where you could take your (any level) toon and Pvp play would be cool.  Kind of like an updated DAOC thing.

Sovrath

Originally posted by CrittRockets


How does elf vs elf go against the lore? Because you never saw an elf fight another elf in the movie?
I'm pretty sure the "lore" of LOTR doesn't equal middle earth being a heavenly land where every man fights for a noble cause and every elf is pure and true. Seriously? People do bad things and its going AGAINST the lore to force people to be a good guy. Just because you look like an elf doesn't mean you have to be a good guy.

 

I don't think you actually understand the world. And it also seems like you didn't read the books.

For the most part it is not generic fantasy world #108.

The entire Lord of the Rings is about the free peoples against Sauron.

You would have to actually read the books to understand.

Besides, this discussion is years out of date. I and others have debated this very topic with people who have posted the exact same words you have many, many times in closed beta.

artemisentr4

Originally posted by CrittRockets


So just curious why LOTRO doesnt have any open-world PvP at all? It would be a good game with 1 PvP server. I understand that most people just love to pay 15$ a month to kill computers and get a false sense of accomplishement but some people like playing against other players. The system they have now where monsters fight good guys is pretty weak, basically just follow a raid around and fight the other raid. There is little-to-no small group or 1v1 opportunities. The "class" system on the monster side is completely different from the good guys making balance very hard to achieve.  Its basically a lame attempt to incorporate the "lore" of the LOTR world into the game where good guys fight bad guys. 
So why not make a system where elves can attack other elves in the real world (outside moors) and etc.  If LOTR had a real PvP system this game would attract not only all the people who love to kill mobs all day and pay real money for it but also people who are avoiding this game because there is no real PvP.

 

The game was never designed to be a PvP game. The balance would be a joke if you had the main players able to fight each other. To have a good PvP game, you need balance in PvP which in turn puts PvE out of balance.

I think It would be good to have an expansion some day for the Evil minions of Sauron. You could start a new character in the evil lands that Sauron has called forth to battle the free people of Middle Earth. You would level and quest in Rohan and Gondor and finnaly Mordor against the free people of Middle Earth. Faction type PvP would be something to add to the game, but would be years away from ever even being a thought.

metalhead980

Originally posted by Sovrath




 
I don't think you actually understand the world. And it also seems like you didn't read the books.

You can't expect these young kids to actually read if its not a homework assignment.

It's pathetic really I was reading Catcher in the Rye the other day and some chick asked me if it was based on a movie...........

Obviously he knows nothing about Tolkien.

Ahhh kids these days.

CrittRockets

If the game is supposed to be based on the books and the lore why cant i start attacking the good guys towns with a monster? When you ask yourself that its when you realize PvP was just an afterthought with this game and how bad the current system really is. Either that or they figured that people who liked the LOTR lore couldn't handle a game where they would get killed by other players.

metalhead980

Originally posted by CrittRockets


If the game is supposed to be based on the books and the lore why cant i start attacking the good guys towns with a monster? When you ask yourself that its when you realize PvP was just an afterthought with this game and how bad the current system really is. Either that or they figured that people who liked the LOTR lore couldn't handle a game where they would get killed by other players.

 

ehhh you can attack other players as a monster its just confined to areas of the world.

I don't think the players in lotro ( a mostly Rp and dungeon centric community) would like FFA pvp interupting their dungeons and quests.

Frostbite05

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by CrittRockets


If the game is supposed to be based on the books and the lore why cant i start attacking the good guys towns with a monster? When you ask yourself that its when you realize PvP was just an afterthought with this game and how bad the current system really is. Either that or they figured that people who liked the LOTR lore couldn't handle a game where they would get killed by other players.

 

ehhh you can attack other players as a monster its just confined to areas of the world.

I don't think the players in lotro ( a mostly Rp and dungeon centric community) would like FFA pvp interupting their dungeons and quests.

Very true. Also turbine tries to stick as close as then can to the books. There really is no way to add ffa pvp into the world because its pretty much against the lore unless they add another faction besides the free people.

Kordesh

 Pretty simply, because its not the focus of the game. Additionally, they're limited as to what can be done by the lore. I don't see why someone who wanted serious PvP would put LoTRO on the top of their list in the first place. It's there as merely something else to do, an interesting feature/side game for people to have fun with. I doubt it will ever be anything more than that. 

rodingo

You do realize there are plenty of other games that allow you to play as an elf or orc and still do somewhat of "world" pvp? One of those games is a raging "success" as far as sub numbers go. The rest are "meh".  But everyone one of those games has balance and CC issues.

artemisentr4

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by CrittRockets


If the game is supposed to be based on the books and the lore why cant i start attacking the good guys towns with a monster? When you ask yourself that its when you realize PvP was just an afterthought with this game and how bad the current system really is. Either that or they figured that people who liked the LOTR lore couldn't handle a game where they would get killed by other players.

 

ehhh you can attack other players as a monster its just confined to areas of the world.

I don't think the players in lotro ( a mostly Rp and dungeon centric community) would like FFA pvp interupting their dungeons and quests.

Very true. Also turbine tries to stick as close as then can to the books. There really is no way to add ffa pvp into the world because its pretty much against the lore unless they add another faction besides the free people.

 

FFA would never work, but factions could work. Like I said earlier, if they have an expansion with the Rohan or Gondor expansions in the future have an evil faction race and class starting area. Players could join with Sauron and try to kill the free people in Gondor, Rohan and Mordor. That would make the struggle for Middle earth a real struggle. Along with questing, you would have to deal with evil players questing in the same open areas.

Irishoak

Seriously? Really? This was needed? Troll the Hello Kitty forum and demand tits or cock rings or something. You're not hardcore. This is banal. I don't even play this game anymore and I'm shaking my head at this...

Sovrath

Originally posted by CrittRockets


If the game is supposed to be based on the books and the lore why cant i start attacking the good guys towns with a monster? When you ask yourself that its when you realize PvP was just an afterthought with this game and how bad the current system really is. Either that or they figured that people who liked the LOTR lore couldn't handle a game where they would get killed by other players.

 

Ok fair enough.

I'm not a lore expert and I know there are guys who have memorized every single fact about the books from Silmarillion to forgotten tales. But I'll take a stab at it.

wow. Actually this is hard because there is so much history prior to the lord of the rings proper.

The books are about the free people's struggles against the rise of Sauron.

Sauron has just started gathering his power and knows that he needs to lay low until he can have an army that is ready. On top of this, he knows the ring of power exists so he is doing what he needs to do to find it.

The free people are essentially protected by some extremely powerful groups and individuals along with some nasty natural barriers or just dangerous places (moria, paths of carhadras, etc). You have Galadriel who has a ring of power in Lothlorien, Elrond in his valley who also has a ring of power, the rangers and elves protecting the woods and therefore no one gets through to the shire for example), you have the ents and powerful Huorns in Fangorn.

You also have Gandalf doing his fair share (also with a ring of power). Sauron just doesn't have the power to challenge these forces. Besides other Elf factions, dwarves, The Horse lords of Rohan, etc. Now, you might ask, well why can't I go out and just cause some mischief on my own? This is the crux of why players can't understand why they can't just be orcs and raze a village.

orcs/goblins are essentially very weak willed and weak minded in The Lord of the Rings. They really don't do much on their own without a powerful leader behind them. And as I said, Sauron is just not powerful enough to challenge the free people.

So what the evil players are faced with are exceptionally powerful forces protecting the world along with geography not in his favor.

You also have the people of Minas Tirith who are essentially the front lines and constantly making sure that no one gets through.

and that's the thing. For the most part, no one gets through. Sauron's forces just aren't n shape at the start of the books. And when they are ready he then marches them en masse on Minas Tirith.

now, you might be saying, but Helms Deep had a battle and he was able to reach there. But no, not exactly.

Sauron was able to convice Saruman, a very powerful being who is part of an order of wizards like Gandalf (they are actually Istari who are sort of like, for lack of a better term "Angels"), to come to his side. So Saurman realizes that orcs/goblins are not really great at moving around during the daylight (another weakness). So he creates his own version of orcs, The orcs of the White Hand or Uruk-Hai and he and Sauron come up with a plan to have Sauron march West, he will march east and they will crush the cities of men in a vice grip. Another thing to keep in mind were that the Uruk-High were created by Sauron but Saruman makes his own and makes changes, such as the ability to travel better during the day.

Of course, Treebeard, a very poweful ent realizes Saurman's treachery with the help of the hobbits merry and pippin (possibly gandalf and calls the ents and huorns to a meeting to decide if they should march on Saruman They decide they will and they siege his tower. Then, at Helm's deep, Gandalf finds the son of  Theoden of Rohan, Eomer(horse lord ) who was banished because theoden was under the influence of Grimer Wormtonge, an agent of Saruman, and they come to the defense of Helm's Deep.

Gandalf and Eomer ride to helm's deep with Eomer's forces as Theoden (his father) is trying to protect Helm's deep. the remaing orc army flees.

However...

the trees, huorns, of Fangorn forest came up to the edge of helm's deep. The orcs headed to the forest in their escapge but the sentient forest trapped and killed them.

Now Sauron doens't have Saruman's army. He must come from the east and march on the free peoples alone. Well, he has the Nazgul and they are a help of course but he needs them to drive his armies to Minas Tirith.

So, a player orc would have to essentially run away from Sauron's forces, get through minas Tirith, get through all sorts of natural barriers, the Riders of Rohan, Elves of Lothlorien, Moria,  Elrond's forces, the rangers and elves protecting the forest and all sorts of other denizen's of middle earth (I didn't mention Tom Bombadil who seems so powerful that the power of the one ring has no affect on him at all) so he can even attack bree or the Shire.

And in the end, the books are not about Sauron at all. Never once does the evil side ever have it's own material except in the presence of one of the protagonists. There are no chapters where Sauron is discussing his plans or Saruman let's us in on his plans. All is discovered by the protagonists.

The orcs and Sauron's forces are there for the purpose of the story.

 I apologize if I made any errors in this telling, I'm sure there are people who are much more versed with the entirety of the conflict. And in the end there really is a lot that goes into it. Enough so that any Orc is just not going to say "hey, let's raze a village and get some smoothies afterwards. My treat!

 

rozenblade1

Open world PvP wouldn't be following the lore...you couldn't have Free Peoples openly killing other Free Peoples, the lore just doesnt work that way...

The only way open world PvP could be implemented would be to allow players to choose to play as a member of the Free People or as the Minions of Sauron...but that still wouldnt follow the lore because the lore doesnt go enough into Saurons Minions to allow for there to be a story driven behind it that could allow for a sufficient amount of quests and other content...

Why can't people just except the fact that not every MMO has to cater to PvPers...

I love PvP, but LotRO is my favorite MMO I've played...but that could just be because I've been following the lore since I was like 12 or something

BarCrow

   I don't mean this to be insulting....it's just that The Lord of the Rings is a hero's tale about the epic struggle of Good Vs. Evil in its base and archetypical sense ...with a focus of good triumphant over overwhelming evil. We never really see instances of individual evil entities without the presence of a protagonist. The good guys are highlighted...at all times.

   The game reflects this very, very well...to the point that when we encounter an exceptionally evil being....usually enhanced by a strange distortion of the screen....it becomes very creepy and the atmosphere seems to grow dim...my heart even races a bit.   At no point in the stories..that I remember..(and I have only read the trilogy and the Hobbit)...but I do not recall a giant spider or Uber-Orc  being the focus as it runs amok in the shires. This may work great...and does..in other mmo's...but I think it would seem out of place in LOTRO. 

   Now if they had gone with Middle-Earth Online...and the game was merely like the original SWG...where you were just playing a living thing in the world Tolkien created...that would be a different story...but this game is definitely trying to capture the tone and motive of the books themselves.

   I, myself, really enjoy the game right now...the only thing is...in following the story of the books..I am wondering what Turbine is going to do AFTER the story ends as Tolkien has written. Are we just going to replay old content? I like to experiment with classes and what not...but I tend to be a one character player...usually sticking with the first creation. Have they announced anything on this?..however far away it may be.

                        ...wow..sorry about this long rambling post that basically says nothing new.

Sovrath

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Sovrath




 
I don't think you actually understand the world. And it also seems like you didn't read the books.

You can't expect these young kids to actually read if its not a homework assignment.

It's pathetic really I was reading Catcher in the Rye the other day and some chick asked me if it was based on a movie...........

Obviously he knows nothing about Tolkien.

Ahhh kids these days.

 

Ouch babe!

 

FikusOfAhazi

PVP in lotro is EXACTLY like the pvp in every other mmo. (except for a couple like eve or Darkfall that have a point)

Saying lotro pvp is a joke means? No scoreboard? No gear for wining or losing enough times lol? No xp to force you to level up so you cant stay a twink forever?
What do they mean exactly?

FikusOfAhazi

Also i think it's the story and timeline world pvp would have trouble fitting into, not the lore. the lore supports it perfectly. the timeline makes everything tough to fit into the game.

GidSlack

Because MMO pvp is a joke, no matter what game you are playing (in terms of playability vs an fps, and in terms of the trashy crowd it attracts). 

So, if you're making a MMO, you have to have some kind of pvp, but you want to minimize it so your whole game doesn't become a joke.  

This is what Turbine did with LotRO.  It seems to be working out.

 

Loke666

Originally posted by GidSlack


Because MMO pvp is a joke, no matter what game you are playing (in terms of playability vs an fps, and in terms of the trashy crowd it attracts). 
So, if you're making a MMO, you have to have some kind of pvp, but you want to minimize it so your whole game doesn't become a joke.  
This is what Turbine did with LotRO.  It seems to be working out.
 

Arenanet did a much better work in Guildwars. 

 

The problem with LOTRO is that the devs choose to only let players be good. The lore in LOTRO supports both sides but Turbine only wanted players to be good, not to work for Sauron and that is why the PvP is so bad.

The alternative would be making a lot more content for the bad guys also and let the sides meet sometimes but not that often, or have constant wars with eachother. And it would cost more money to make all those zones.

FikusOfAhazi

---

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by GidSlack Because MMO pvp is a joke, no matter what game you are playing (in terms of playability vs an fps, and in terms of the trashy crowd it attracts). 
So, if you're making a MMO, you have to have some kind of pvp, but you want to minimize it so your whole game doesn't become a joke.  
This is what Turbine did with LotRO.  It seems to be working out.
 

Arenanet did a much better work in Guildwars. 
 
The problem with LOTRO is that the devs choose to only let players be good. The lore in LOTRO supports both sides but Turbine only wanted players to be good, not to work for Sauron and that is why the PvP is so bad.
The alternative would be making a lot more content for the bad guys also and let the sides meet sometimes but not that often, or have constant wars with eachother. And it would cost more money to make all those zones.

---

But remember, Turbine isnt Blizzard. Nor handed 100 million from a publisher to compete with blizzard. They did the best with what they had. They can always add the other side later like City of heroes did.

Papadam

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by GidSlack


Because MMO pvp is a joke, no matter what game you are playing (in terms of playability vs an fps, and in terms of the trashy crowd it attracts). 
So, if you're making a MMO, you have to have some kind of pvp, but you want to minimize it so your whole game doesn't become a joke.  
This is what Turbine did with LotRO.  It seems to be working out.
 

Arenanet did a much better work in Guildwars. 

 

The problem with LOTRO is that the devs choose to only let players be good. The lore in LOTRO supports both sides but Turbine only wanted players to be good, not to work for Sauron and that is why the PvP is so bad.

The alternative would be making a lot more content for the bad guys also and let the sides meet sometimes but not that often, or have constant wars with eachother. And it would cost more money to make all those zones.

 

Remember that very few MMOs let you play true evil characters like the orcs in Lotr and thats for a very good reason. The evil side in Lotr is not "missunderstood" or have any free will at all, they are just pure evil who want do destroý. Therfor having the evil side as a playable factions doesnt make much sense. There is a reason why you cant play as the burning legion in WoW either. PvMP is a geniouse way of making people get a taste of what the evil side of Lotr is about imo. (even thou it could use some more love now )

I like that the PvP in LotrO is about having fun and nothing else, PvP in other MMOs are like competitions but in LotrO its actually a War and nothing is fair or balanced in wars. GW is a good example of a game that is like a competition.

Nebless

Might make for an interesting twist if they allowed you to take (your) monster into a special skirmish instance.

Basically where the monster player signs into a list (LFF - Looking for fight) and if the Free Guy hits the same they both go with the Free Guy doing it like it is presently; random, he picks raid nr and level etc...., and the monster guy becoming one of the LT's or Big Boss.  Still totally random encounter with limited control on the monster side.  Could be looked at as just an extension of Monster Play.