Since we can't all be opinion leader, you can also find a site/blog like what is describe just above and add your two cents.
As for the "I quit!" post. It is an exercise in style to keep the right balance of anger (to get the point across that you are NOT satisfied), of calmness (to show that you are not just raquitting), and demonstration (to show that there is an (f)actual issue, not just your bruised feelings).
And most of all, [b]it should be short[b/]. Just like any "discourse", it can be describe like a skirt (yeah old joke here): "short enough to grab the crowd's attention, long enough to cover the essentials parts/points". Or here, long enough to not appear as a /ragequit, but short enough to not appear as a rambling rant.
If it's too long, you get - a large chance none of the posters will actually read it, and will just flame one way or another, leading to the thread being closed and not read by the devs - the devs just not plain reading, for lack of time. It's the old "tl;dr" thing...
On this note, this post is already getting too long, so bye!
Also, do everyone a favor by putting a halt to the pre-order fad. You're telling publishers/devs that you don't give a damn about the state of the game, just the name and the hype. It's been accepted as commonplace for far too long that a game is supposed to be horrible at release, and should be given 1-3 months to be "working as intended" while you the consumer is paying for them to finish their post-release beta phase. Maybe it can be passed as inexperience for indie companies, but all the "AAA" companies that have more than enough gaming time under their belts have no excuse other than meeting their deadlines.
Want better games? Let companies know that you're not giving them a dime until it's actually released rather than based on "faith".
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
When you present feedback, you have to recognize that you are delivering a message to a group of people who constructed the game and have an intimate understanding of how each mechanic and piece of content was implemented.
If only this were true.
I encountered situations in SWG where the developers CLEARLY did not understand the mechanisms of the game. Perhaps these were not the same devs that designed the function or wrote the code, but they didn't have a clue as to how it actually worked in the game presented to the players.
You try to explain to them HOW this functions in the game you're playing, and you're dismissed as not knowing what you're talking about, and when you catch the same developers in logical inconsistencies in their replies, they get all huffy.
I did this several times in the SWG forums during the preCU period, and it was painfully obvious that the developers did not understand their own game. I'm referring specifically to the functionality of camps and the calling of pets and vehicles in them. The developers cited unspecified "griefing exploits" that they could not articulate for fear of informing the players of them, while at the same time not acknowleding that these "griefing exploits" existed, by design, in metropolitan regions of the game...the cities and some POIs. For some reason, things that were "griefing exploits" in the wild were not "griefing exploits" in the cities...and the concern they had with creature handlers "rotating" through pets was addressed in another function, because it had to be, because you could call pets "at will" in metropolitian areas. The stated reason for that restriction did not make sense given the mechanisms of the game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
If only this were true. I encountered situations in SWG where the developers CLEARLY did not understand the mechanisms of the game. Perhaps these were not the same devs that designed the function or wrote the code, but they didn't have a clue as to how it actually worked in the game presented to the players.
Interesting side discussion and I have to agree. Warhammer Online, to me, was a perfect example of this. There were a lot of core issues that people stated both prior to launch and even after launch, yet these issues weren't addressed. Mythic paid dearly for this and now are on a slow path of trying to improve things.
Not sure what it is but it's almost as though gamers, since they're immersed within the game on a continual basis, can see the bigger picture and complexities of the game more so than the game developers who are all focused just on specific aspects of the design and development (i.e. UI, quests, character art, etc).
In my opinion, there are two critical roles that can help change this situation. The lead game designer should be playing the game on a frequent basis or have a close assistant / advisor who is playing the game for him, if he or she doesn't have the time to do so. Even more so, the lead game designer should be communicating frequently with the lead community manager. It's up to the community manager to gauge and relay the voice of the community to the lead game designer.
In effect, when you're focused on design and development, especially from a leadership position, you have very little opportunity to actually spend time experiencing the intimate complexities of the game firsthand because you're spending all of your time managing people and the process.
Victor, you should do a whole post on asking players why they DON'T play a game. It is the most valuable thing a game company (or any company) can do, and it's absolutely the one that NOBODY DOES.
I'd be happy to explain why I don't play City of Heroes anymore. Chapter 13 introduced a hard crash bug and as of Chapter 14, it still wasn't fixed - I went back and tried again a few months ago, no joy. Fix it and I'll reup, I was having fun.
I'd be happy to tell SOE why I won't ever play EQ2 again. They got psychotic about the game's atmosphere (Gigglegibber goblins? Mushroom pets? ffs get a grip you loons) and then went farther in the wrong direction and WoW'd out the game, driving every adult who actually wanted to earn their rewards out of the game. Fix that and I'll seriously consider reupping just to hang with a friend who is still enduring the madness to this day.
I can describe in detail exactly why I will not return to playing LOTRO, and it's the same reason I won't play any other Turbine game. I get a black screen of death bug across all of their games that I've tried so far. It came in with LOTRO's Moria expansion for me, and I just tried DDO Online on a fresh install of Windows and the latest drivers across the board, and in 3 seconds of play - boom black screen of death, just like in LOTRO. At the same time, all my other games run flawlessly, so it's not my machine. Fix the BlackSOD bug and I'll definitely play one or the other right now. Probably DDO just for the old-school feel of it, but maybe LOTRO - I had some friends there and I was having fun with several different toons.
(Seriously, I'd like to tell them about that, since it has to be a tool they're using across all of the games. But their shortsighted registration system denies access to the forums if you're not a paying subscriber, so I can't go back to the official Tech Support - Black Screen - Gathering Information thread and fill them in. Doh.)
I won't play Cryptic's Champions Online or Star Trek Online, even though I was excited about them, because of microtransactions and the easy-mode 1337ism it fosters. If you are 133t in a game I play, I want to know that you earned it, not bought it. One thing I'd tell them on that is that I'd pay more to play on a server with no microtransactions. (Edit: I now seriously wonder if this is a model that should be pursued. Prices go up on everything over time, if it's time to tier the service so that serious players can have their enjoyment away from the F2P players and those who buy their victories, then it's time imho.)
In conclusion, excellent idea Victor. See how much clear, detailed information you can get from 1 player about why they are not giving your game company money? I hope the entire industry adopts it ASAP. It's got to be better feedback for gaining new customers than listening to the vocal minority on the forums.
I think it's possibly more important from a company's point of view to have a dialogue of some sort when people cancel their subs, asking why they are doing so. Some people hate these dialogues, but when you play a game that doesn't have one at cancellation, it's an odd feeling - I'm cancelling your game because I don't want to play it anymore, and you don't care why? (Hello NC Soft!)
Almost every MMO asks you to list the reasons you're quitting.
In fact, it's more difficult for me to think of the specific games that DONT ask you, than to list the ones that DO. Almost all of them ask why.
However, every single "Why are you quitting" survey I've taken has been done in the style of a marketing questionnaire, which all too often is driving your answers towards their predetermined categories so it fills in the columns of their happy little spreadsheet. The exit survey is supposed to extract the exact reason why you don't want to give the company money any more, not just neatly fill in the weekly subscription report so the marketing person can concentrate on choosing the swag for the next show.
I will start with the I quit post. At turbine these get locked very quickly and deleted, as they usually turn into a flame war. The reason wny is the I quit post usually goes of the deep end after what I call a rage quit. I have seen a few I quit posts followed by a long list of items of what drove that person to that point. The sad thing is Turbine shuts theese down hard, saying theres no need to let that go on. Honestly if folks read half my post at Turbine they would know the real reason why I am quitting if it ever came to that. I have a long line of posts concerning gear gating, lack of character progression as well as others. No on to choosine the right soap box. Just goin off blind rage and calling the devs stupid gets you knowhere. I have lately went toe to toe with a couple of CS and Devs dirrectly at turbine. I finally had to post screenshot to prove they were wrong, and it actually resulted in the CS making a change to his/her post stating that the deed was efected. It is a shame that we have to prove to them that things are not working but I am finding out that a couple of the devs actually listen. I think it is best to approach the dev's and CS with actuall proof, not just some random out of air I think this is broken. That way if they really do listen them might be able to find the problem a lot quicker. The problem is that after a few years the dev's actually get tired of being berated and beet down, and at that point they don't care. Case in point we only have 2 devs who actually respond now at Turbine items that are under their perview, the rest of the dev team seams to be very quite. Good article by the way. Feedback does not always have to be negative to get there attention it just needs to be mad e in such a manner to where the dev on the other end is not being hit over the head. Something I know I did a few times. It is just far to often feedback given is never taken. I can point at several MMO's. Turbine, SOE, NCSOFT and others.
Not to spam this thread with my responses, but I have to add to this. It took me about a week of arguing on Turbine's Tech Support forum to get the TS people past their knee-jerk "update your drivers" and "it's your graphics card overheating" responses t o start addressing the Black Screen of Death issue. I actually got more than a few others with the same problem to come into the thread and post their configs and screenshots of their card temps along with mine, and it was absolutely necessary before the TS people would start listening to us.After that though, they set up a thread just for Black Screen issues, so something good was happening.
So you're absolutely right. There's a "guilty before proven innocent" mentality applied to forum posters that blocks out player input, regardless of the quality of the input.
Comments
Since we can't all be opinion leader, you can also find a site/blog like what is describe just above and add your two cents.
As for the "I quit!" post. It is an exercise in style to keep the right balance of anger (to get the point across that you are NOT satisfied), of calmness (to show that you are not just raquitting), and demonstration (to show that there is an (f)actual issue, not just your bruised feelings).
And most of all, [b]it should be short[b/]. Just like any "discourse", it can be describe like a skirt (yeah old joke here): "short enough to grab the crowd's attention, long enough to cover the essentials parts/points". Or here, long enough to not appear as a /ragequit, but short enough to not appear as a rambling rant.
If it's too long, you get
- a large chance none of the posters will actually read it, and will just flame one way or another, leading to the thread being closed and not read by the devs
- the devs just not plain reading, for lack of time. It's the old "tl;dr" thing...
On this note, this post is already getting too long, so bye!
Dollar voting ftw.
Also, do everyone a favor by putting a halt to the pre-order fad. You're telling publishers/devs that you don't give a damn about the state of the game, just the name and the hype. It's been accepted as commonplace for far too long that a game is supposed to be horrible at release, and should be given 1-3 months to be "working as intended" while you the consumer is paying for them to finish their post-release beta phase. Maybe it can be passed as inexperience for indie companies, but all the "AAA" companies that have more than enough gaming time under their belts have no excuse other than meeting their deadlines.
Want better games? Let companies know that you're not giving them a dime until it's actually released rather than based on "faith".
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
When you present feedback, you have to recognize that you are delivering a message to a group of people who constructed the game and have an intimate understanding of how each mechanic and piece of content was implemented.
If only this were true.
I encountered situations in SWG where the developers CLEARLY did not understand the mechanisms of the game. Perhaps these were not the same devs that designed the function or wrote the code, but they didn't have a clue as to how it actually worked in the game presented to the players.
You try to explain to them HOW this functions in the game you're playing, and you're dismissed as not knowing what you're talking about, and when you catch the same developers in logical inconsistencies in their replies, they get all huffy.
I did this several times in the SWG forums during the preCU period, and it was painfully obvious that the developers did not understand their own game. I'm referring specifically to the functionality of camps and the calling of pets and vehicles in them. The developers cited unspecified "griefing exploits" that they could not articulate for fear of informing the players of them, while at the same time not acknowleding that these "griefing exploits" existed, by design, in metropolitan regions of the game...the cities and some POIs. For some reason, things that were "griefing exploits" in the wild were not "griefing exploits" in the cities...and the concern they had with creature handlers "rotating" through pets was addressed in another function, because it had to be, because you could call pets "at will" in metropolitian areas. The stated reason for that restriction did not make sense given the mechanisms of the game.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Interesting side discussion and I have to agree. Warhammer Online, to me, was a perfect example of this. There were a lot of core issues that people stated both prior to launch and even after launch, yet these issues weren't addressed. Mythic paid dearly for this and now are on a slow path of trying to improve things.
Not sure what it is but it's almost as though gamers, since they're immersed within the game on a continual basis, can see the bigger picture and complexities of the game more so than the game developers who are all focused just on specific aspects of the design and development (i.e. UI, quests, character art, etc).
In my opinion, there are two critical roles that can help change this situation. The lead game designer should be playing the game on a frequent basis or have a close assistant / advisor who is playing the game for him, if he or she doesn't have the time to do so. Even more so, the lead game designer should be communicating frequently with the lead community manager. It's up to the community manager to gauge and relay the voice of the community to the lead game designer.
In effect, when you're focused on design and development, especially from a leadership position, you have very little opportunity to actually spend time experiencing the intimate complexities of the game firsthand because you're spending all of your time managing people and the process.
Victor, you should do a whole post on asking players why they DON'T play a game. It is the most valuable thing a game company (or any company) can do, and it's absolutely the one that NOBODY DOES.
I'd be happy to explain why I don't play City of Heroes anymore. Chapter 13 introduced a hard crash bug and as of Chapter 14, it still wasn't fixed - I went back and tried again a few months ago, no joy. Fix it and I'll reup, I was having fun.
I'd be happy to tell SOE why I won't ever play EQ2 again. They got psychotic about the game's atmosphere (Gigglegibber goblins? Mushroom pets? ffs get a grip you loons) and then went farther in the wrong direction and WoW'd out the game, driving every adult who actually wanted to earn their rewards out of the game. Fix that and I'll seriously consider reupping just to hang with a friend who is still enduring the madness to this day.
I can describe in detail exactly why I will not return to playing LOTRO, and it's the same reason I won't play any other Turbine game. I get a black screen of death bug across all of their games that I've tried so far. It came in with LOTRO's Moria expansion for me, and I just tried DDO Online on a fresh install of Windows and the latest drivers across the board, and in 3 seconds of play - boom black screen of death, just like in LOTRO. At the same time, all my other games run flawlessly, so it's not my machine. Fix the BlackSOD bug and I'll definitely play one or the other right now. Probably DDO just for the old-school feel of it, but maybe LOTRO - I had some friends there and I was having fun with several different toons.
(Seriously, I'd like to tell them about that, since it has to be a tool they're using across all of the games. But their shortsighted registration system denies access to the forums if you're not a paying subscriber, so I can't go back to the official Tech Support - Black Screen - Gathering Information thread and fill them in. Doh.)
I won't play Cryptic's Champions Online or Star Trek Online, even though I was excited about them, because of microtransactions and the easy-mode 1337ism it fosters. If you are 133t in a game I play, I want to know that you earned it, not bought it. One thing I'd tell them on that is that I'd pay more to play on a server with no microtransactions. (Edit: I now seriously wonder if this is a model that should be pursued. Prices go up on everything over time, if it's time to tier the service so that serious players can have their enjoyment away from the F2P players and those who buy their victories, then it's time imho.)
In conclusion, excellent idea Victor. See how much clear, detailed information you can get from 1 player about why they are not giving your game company money? I hope the entire industry adopts it ASAP. It's got to be better feedback for gaining new customers than listening to the vocal minority on the forums.
Almost every MMO asks you to list the reasons you're quitting.
In fact, it's more difficult for me to think of the specific games that DONT ask you, than to list the ones that DO. Almost all of them ask why.
However, every single "Why are you quitting" survey I've taken has been done in the style of a marketing questionnaire, which all too often is driving your answers towards their predetermined categories so it fills in the columns of their happy little spreadsheet. The exit survey is supposed to extract the exact reason why you don't want to give the company money any more, not just neatly fill in the weekly subscription report so the marketing person can concentrate on choosing the swag for the next show.
Not to spam this thread with my responses, but I have to add to this. It took me about a week of arguing on Turbine's Tech Support forum to get the TS people past their knee-jerk "update your drivers" and "it's your graphics card overheating" responses t o start addressing the Black Screen of Death issue. I actually got more than a few others with the same problem to come into the thread and post their configs and screenshots of their card temps along with mine, and it was absolutely necessary before the TS people would start listening to us.After that though, they set up a thread just for Black Screen issues, so something good was happening.
So you're absolutely right. There's a "guilty before proven innocent" mentality applied to forum posters that blocks out player input, regardless of the quality of the input.