Nice line up of none standard MMO games. I have only tried Second World from this set up but it was way too slow for me. I guess I am not a big fan of sandbox genre. I do kinda like EVE Online, even though I have been only training skills for the last year and doing nothing else. If there wasn't big popular storylines like starwars there wouldn't be anything to look forward to (swtor). I am just glad that while devs these days prefer not to risk and only chase the big buck by making WoW and Everquest fantasy clones assuming that its going to be an instant success I am glad there are still some good devs like BIOWARE that release decent single player games.
It would be a very sad world of repetitive annoyingly similar fantasy MMOs if there were no fun single player games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age origins, Elder Scrolls, Modern Warfares, Assassin's Creeds etc. Even though some brave devs release their none-WoW-Everquest-cloned-fantasy games (Fallen Erth), those attempts are quite amateur, projects are poorly budgeted and games are not as good as they could have been if genre was picked up by a more experienced, better financially secured developers. I just know one thing - something needs to change. Its been literally YEARS without a good MMO in other genre than fantasy. I think thats why Star Wars: Old Republic is so much anticipated. Gaming World Needs a Change!
Why does all weird games that either noone plays or hasnt heard of end up in these kind of articles? Eve, which is a proper MMORPG, is certainly one that does things differently. Why is it not listed? Puzzle pirates, wtf?
This comment is a PERFECT example of how so few seemed to get the POINT and topic of the original post and article.
This isn't an article about "the best" MMOs, or popular MMOs, or just a little "different" MMOs, or even MMOs that many people would necessarily be interested in PLAYING. It is about MMOs that stray FAR FROM THE "NORM." They are not LIKE any other MMO, in...well...pretty much ANY way, other than being massively multiplayer, and that is pretty much it.
These are games that, popular or not, "good" or not, DARED TO STRAY from the traditionally formulated MMO. And I'm sorry, but DFO, and EVE don't meet that criteria. Actually, EVE does more than DFO. Darkfall, while being interesting and not "the same old same old," STILL stayed with the traditional fantasy setting...it still has combat with swords and shields, it still has PvP (although done a LITTLE different, Tibia...a very old 2D game, and UO, both "did this before" or did something very similar).
And yes, EVE does SOME things differently. I think you'll see that the games listed, do a lot more than "some" things differently. For instance....Puzzle Pirates. Is there another game out there, that is an MMO, that even REMOTELY resembles it? No. Is it something I'd want to play every day? No. BUT THAT ISN'T THE POINT! lol
The OP was listing games that were WAY WAY off the "beaten path," as far as MMOs go. I do not understand why some people are having such a hard time understanding why the games that are on the list are there.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
Because most here have Zero reading comprehension and full of Fanboi fire.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
I have no idea what you're saying, i think the list is fine... it's what i said above, it doesn't have to be a list of the best mmos of all time, and not even one with ALL the innovative MMO's, those that invite rethiking and new visions of peristancy and massivity.
They are just examples of designing outside of the(miserable, cheap marketing) box. The message is wholesome, and it reaches, and that's all there's to it, questioning who's 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and some not being there(planetside etc) is matter of top5-junkies.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
I have no idea what you're saying, i think the list is fine... it's what i said above, it doesn't have to be a list of the best mmos of all time, and not even one with ALL the innovative MMO's, those that invite rethiking and new visions of peristancy and massivity.
They are just examples of designing outside of the(miserable, cheap marketing) box. The message is wholesome, and it reaches, and that's all there's to it, questioning who's 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and some not being there(planetside etc) is matter of top5-junkies.
My comment wasn't to you. It was regarding what I highlighted in orange. I was just too lazy to go looking for THAT poster. I apologize for the misunderstanding that I caused when I also quoted YOUR post.
i suspected so, i thought you were talking to me because "different isn't always better'' is not, i think, a misunderstanding of the topic, it's a generic declaration of love for conservatorism. This person here is stating that clones are better than awkward broken originality.
Which is of course demented... that because you're afraid of failure, you should stick with what you know works well, being tested by others.
GREAT LIST Jon.. may the world of MMOs get filled up with more of THESE type of games rather than rehashing of WoW.. kudeos to all developers who think outside the box and give us greater and more diverse gaming opportunities!
Originally posted by HYPERI0N Originally posted by girlgeek Originally posted by Gylfi Originally posted by tro44_1 Different doesnt always = Better
However same old always = pure shit. So progress is still better.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that. Again....why can no one understand the topic here? Because most here have Zero reading comprehension and full of Fanboi fire.
It may sound stupid but gamers of current generation are sort of a "brainwashed" by which games are fun today and which games suck ass. Everything today is about numbers. If publisher says - "our game has 1 million characters" - yay, everyone happy and agrees that game is super cool even though 50% of those people didn't even try it and nobody really cared about paying attention to word "characters". Everything today is about how media hands that game over to the player and how good the marketing campaign is. Take Dragon Age for example. All this marketing campaign, it makes the game look like its some kind of fast paced thriller with sex scenes, mass decapitations and blood covered heroes that player supposedly will play. In reality this game is actually a tactical sim, when you have to pause at least 25 times every time you meet another bunch of mobs, yes there is blood, yes there are some scenes of people in swimsuits, but game itself is completely different from what the marketing campaign and launch trailers suggest.
I mean look around, what are the 2 best promoted gaming genres these days - fantasy MMO and first person shooters, then some variations of either. I think that gaming industry is degrading towards the linear dumb games. PvP and FPS - two most popular words in gaming world today. Thats why such a reaction from some gamers. They just can't comprehand other genres than what community tells them and most developers give them today are the most fun.Tthey are being fed by media that this is what you have to focus on and what is todays games. PvP and FPS. If you don't you suck, friends look strangely at you and you are just a plain loser. "You are playing Sim City? Wow, man you're strange. We are all playing Modern Warfare 2". Or something like that.
I'm only responding again because you "find it wierd" DFO would be suggested. Name another MMO now on the market where players create most of the content such as politics due to the following: - Player built Cities and Hamlets that can be captured or lost with functionality of player created walls, cannons, skill trainers, boat yards, laser towers, and the list goes on. -Player created Ships with sea warefare and fortresses at sea that can be captured and/or challenged for control. -Open PvP where one can attack any one, not just the opposite faction. -Death Penalty in PvP and PvE where all you have is left on corpse. -Skill based, not level based. -No class selection, as one can be any class or combo as player desires. Look forward to hearing your reply. -CC
EvE Online does everything you put there but better?
( By the way, in Darkfall, there are not multiple classes, there is only ONE class. )
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead.
There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
i suspected so, i thought you were talking to me because "different isn't always better'' is not, i think, a misunderstanding of the topic, it's a generic declaration of love for conservatorism. This person here is stating that clones are better than awkward broken originality. Which is of course demented... that because you're afraid of failure, you should stick with what you know works well, being tested by others. It's like the manifesto of gutless WIMPS.
Yes, I agree. It's the very antithesis to creative genius, which many proclaim they want, but when seeing anything that deviates from the accepted "norm" (i.e., conservative boundaries of acceptance), people tend to "freak out," and say, "but...but...that's not what we MEANT."
It's like telling an artist to create something fantastic and to use their imagination, and then when they present you with the finished piece, saying to them, "But when I said be creative, I MEANT....within these particular boundaries." Uhm....NO.
I completely understand why the games listed are there....and why the games NOT listed...are not. I think the list is actually very insightful and hopefully will encourage SOME developer out there somewhere to roll the dice.
Darkfall doesnt belong in the list because it isnt doing anything different or new. Its using the mould that UO used back in 1997. The article is pointing out games have that shifted away from the traditional fantasy (or sci-fi) norm by using a completely different set of mechanics and play style. Thats why games like puzzle pirates and tale in the desert are in there, because there arent any other games quite like them. For example, TitD has no combat which is very unusual, and puzzle pirates uses puzzles and mini games for all of its tasks.
Look at it like this; In Darkfall, you kill things using your sword or a spell, and craft items such as armour and weapons. It shares these game mechanics with games such as wow, or lotro, or allods, whatever. Darkfall might use an fps or tps viewpoint compared to wow or lotr tab target style, but at its base, its no different in that you can log in your character, run around in a world and kill things. In Cities XL, you cannot log in and equip your awesome sword or ownage and kill the goblins or bears outside the big city of evil and rank up your fireball or visit your trainer for the newest rank of hamstring. Thats what this article is pointing out, and thats why thoe games are on the list.
As a huge Darkfall fan, Darkfall should not be on this list. The games listed moved WAYY away from any basic mold of a typical MMO. Nice article, I enjoyed the read.
I'm only responding again because you "find it wierd" DFO would be suggested. Name another MMO now on the market where players create most of the content such as politics due to the following: - Player built Cities and Hamlets that can be captured or lost with functionality of player created walls, cannons, skill trainers, boat yards, laser towers, and the list goes on. -Player created Ships with sea warefare and fortresses at sea that can be captured and/or challenged for control. -Open PvP where one can attack any one, not just the opposite faction. -Death Penalty in PvP and PvE where all you have is left on corpse. -Skill based, not level based. -No class selection, as one can be any class or combo as player desires. Look forward to hearing your reply. -CC
EvE Online does everything you put there but better?
( By the way, in Darkfall, there are not multiple classes, there is only ONE class. )
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead.
There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong.
-CC
I'm playing.
I completely disagree with you.
And DF doesn't belong on the list, it's really not any dif. then games like AC and SB; infact, it aspires to be the WoW of PvP, FPSMMO's.
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead. There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong. -CC
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
Awesome article. Loved it. Was sad when Seed went under. Was a shame
Played them all, except for XLCities, and I can honestly say, I've never played anything like them, before or after. Even Project Entropia is still a recipe following game, only difference is that instead of gold and coppers or credits or isks, you use RL monehs.
Oh, and to no one in particular: I'm right, you're wrong! (This will be my new bestest motto in the wholest world).
"So I contend that the player stories will always be more powerful than the scripted stories that we try to tell the players."
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead. There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong. -CC
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
Awesome article. Loved it. Was sad when Seed went under. Was a shame
That is hilarious. I only found 2 "classes" *coughthingstoroleplaycough* that were worth even trying. Put bluntly, crafter and ganker. Sure there's the wizard, archer, warrior, etc but they mean nothing without a good reason to play one.
Also, I can say that I'm ashamed I never got to play Seed. It's the one game I really regret never playing. Any other game I regret never playing I can just pick up and play. :<
I really enjoyed the idea for this one, expand the horizons of people open up to alternatives, and I really like the choices of the games too.
As for the comments guys please Darkfall is nothing Innovative or different ...unless you started your MMORPG career with WoW, then yes they would seem as different and be perceived as innovative...it all depends against what your comparing them and how long you have been around.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
YESSS!!! YOHOHO! Puzzle Pirates made Numero Uno!!!
For those that love puzzle games, you have to at least give it a try. It's as much a sandbox as any other open world MMO. It just depends on how good you are. I played it on a whim and, although I took about a 6-8 month extended vacation from it (personal family reasons... hard to play a game that was your only connection to a deceased family member), I haven't really quit playing it in over two years.
For whoever asked about someone else doing a skill system like EVE that is train over time without grind XP, check out Perpetuum Online here on mmorpg.com or at www.perpetuum-online.com.
Now, when I first saw the article, I thought "I wonder where EVE will fall at?" I am happily disappointed that it didn't make the list because none of these games fit anything at all other than they are multiplyer. I only have two questions, though... "Why Second Life?" and "Why Cities XL?" One isn't a game and the other isn't an RPG. (I have noticed that mmorpg.com is turning more into MMOG instead of just RPGs... sad, as I can think of a lot of other resources for MMOGs in general that are more specific when I'm looking for something.)
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead. There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong. -CC
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
heh.. granted, it does sound a bit arrogant, but the reply was to a person posting DFO has one class. Even if one were to completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, still, one class would be so versatile, it would be similar to rolling all the classes in other games in to one character. So even assuming no one specializes and reaches maximum skills in all 10 (TEN) magic schools, masters all 8 (EIGHT) melee schools, masters shield, masters archery, switches between the Cloth, Leather, Bone, Chain, Scale, Plate, all the armors that have their benefits and weakness, it should be obvious in a PvP game, you can't possibly use all of those skills and armor variables in one fight. With global cool-downs, one must pick a play style. So yes, to say there is "one class" in DFO is absolutely wrong, when the above is understood and the discussion occurs within context of the game play.
I won't argue the innovative points further, but stand-by my original post on the subject. I shall of course admit there are definately elements of prior MMO's in DFO, like 100% of every MMO made, even the ones listed. I played UO from release in Sept. 97', loved it, but we couldn't build and own cities, or engage in sea warfare. DFO has taken many of the elements of UO and AC-Darktide; it's true, and sure Shadowbane had ctiy building and sieges, but DFO is its own game and on the aggregate, quite unique
There has never been a game like DFO where all the elements it contains can be found in one game, and to all you EvE fans, I'm sure you have a great game pvp game there too, but you can only compare in theory. EvE is a Space Sim where your avatar is a spaceship. So while I recognize the open PvP and a few other aspets in common with DFO, they are very different games;; more like cousins, but certainly not twins.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead. There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong. -CC
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
heh.. granted, it does sound a bit arrogant, but the reply was to a person posting DFO has one class. Even if one were to completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, still, one class would be so versatile, it would be similar to rolling all the classes in other games in to one character. So even assuming no one specializes and reaches maximum skills in all 10 (TEN) magic schools, masters all 8 (EIGHT) melee schools, masters shield, masters archery, switches between the Cloth, Leather, Bone, Chain, Scale, Plate, all the armors that have their benefits and weakness, it should be obvious in a PvP game, you can't possibly use all of those skills and armor variables in one fight. With global cool-downs, one must pick a play style. So yes, to say there is "one class" in DFO is absolutely wrong, when the above is understood and the discussion occurs within context of the game play.
I won't argue the innovative points further, but stand-by my original post on the subject. I shall of course admit there are definately elements of prior MMO's in DFO, like 100% of every MMO made, even the ones listed. I played UO from release in Sept. 97', loved it, but we couldn't build and own cities, or engage in sea warfare. DFO has taken many of the elements of UO and AC-Darktide; it's true, and sure Shadowbane had ctiy building and sieges, but DFO is its own game and on the aggregate, quite unique
There has never been a game like DFO where all the elements it contains can be found in one game, and to all you EvE fans, I'm sure you have a great game pvp game there too, but you can only compare in theory. EvE is a Space Sim where your avatar is a spaceship. So while I recognize the open PvP and a few other aspets in common with DFO, they are very different games;; more like cousins, but certainly not twins.
-CC
What innovations does DFO has that EVE does not?
I'll list a few that EVE has that DFO does not :
Single shard where everyone plays on the same server, no payed expansions so everyone is on the same page, offline skill training, regulated RMT that blends nicely in the game and economy ( aka plexes ), CSM which is a counsil elected by the players that advice the developer face to face what should be fixed, changed or improved on the game, ...
Now DFO has alot of sandbox elements you can find in EVE and UO, making it nice, breaking the mold of EQ, WoW, LOTRO, ... but not making it that special imho.
The games listed here are very special, not good per sé.
I do believe that EVE has more right to belong in this list than DFO, MO, FE or any of the latest sandboxes out there, still I am fine with it that it is not on the list, because like I said, the listed games are pretty out of the ordinary.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Yes, I agree. It's the very antithesis to creative genius, which many proclaim they want, but when seeing anything that deviates from the accepted "norm" (i.e., conservative boundaries of acceptance), people tend to "freak out," and say, "but...but...that's not what we MEANT." It's like telling an artist to create something fantastic and to use their imagination, and then when they present you with the finished piece, saying to them, "But when I said be creative, I MEANT....within these particular boundaries." Uhm....NO. I completely understand why the games listed are there....and why the games NOT listed...are not. I think the list is actually very insightful and hopefully will encourage SOME developer out there somewhere to roll the dice.
Exactly. people prefer to recognize more of the same, not discover things that may make them feel lost in a universe so big they can't handle. The so-called fence syndrome! Infact most of the people, and here as well, DO ask for innovation, but ironically they assume it is inside the boundaries of a typical WoW game, some are not READY to abandon the concepts of levels, quickbar moves, down to the very concept of PvP & PvE, which at the time of, say, Ultima Online, didn't exist. It's a matter of forgetting everything you know and start from zero, that scares people. But it would give us so much, we would learn many new things about society, and war, and future, things that in reallife can't be learned... the point is that some people don't think a videogame should teach anything.
Well this is a bit digressive, anyhow. Although part of the problem is that marketing experts conclude ''players want more of the same'', and they exploit it, i'm sure the problem is not just that
Finally i agree, the OP invites rethinking and it achieved it. But the message needs more visibility... it's pretty much the same message i'm trying to spread about with a bunch of articles down at gamasutra... (i'm McAndrews)
As someone who was involved in the seed comunity, I wanted to point out a few errors in what was written. While the easiest conclusion to make about seed might be that the concept was unworkable the actual reason for its failure was fiscal in nature. Seeds development team was small and inexperienced. The game was released before even the core game features were finished, and because of their lack of cash they were unable to fix things fast enough to accomidate us fickel gamers. The choices seed made in development didnt have nearly the effect on its demise as did the inability to finish the game before release. I would hate to think that seed would be held up as a reason why a non combat game would be doomed to failing. Even with its flaws it had a strong growing comunity, and if the deves could have had the resources I think it would have ended up a very strong nich product.
I see a patern in these discussions here and im starting to be annoyed by this everytimne starting with WoW and keep telling us that there is nothing wrong with it but...
Why constantly bring up WoW while you so it seems talk about other games.
This sneaky WoW promotion is sickening bah:(
Game is not even good, it have already conquer the world why keep promoting it is beyond me.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Comments
However same old always = pure shit.
So progress is still better.
the best blog of the net
EVE.
Nice line up of none standard MMO games. I have only tried Second World from this set up but it was way too slow for me. I guess I am not a big fan of sandbox genre. I do kinda like EVE Online, even though I have been only training skills for the last year and doing nothing else. If there wasn't big popular storylines like starwars there wouldn't be anything to look forward to (swtor). I am just glad that while devs these days prefer not to risk and only chase the big buck by making WoW and Everquest fantasy clones assuming that its going to be an instant success I am glad there are still some good devs like BIOWARE that release decent single player games.
It would be a very sad world of repetitive annoyingly similar fantasy MMOs if there were no fun single player games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age origins, Elder Scrolls, Modern Warfares, Assassin's Creeds etc. Even though some brave devs release their none-WoW-Everquest-cloned-fantasy games (Fallen Erth), those attempts are quite amateur, projects are poorly budgeted and games are not as good as they could have been if genre was picked up by a more experienced, better financially secured developers. I just know one thing - something needs to change. Its been literally YEARS without a good MMO in other genre than fantasy. I think thats why Star Wars: Old Republic is so much anticipated. Gaming World Needs a Change!
This comment is a PERFECT example of how so few seemed to get the POINT and topic of the original post and article.
This isn't an article about "the best" MMOs, or popular MMOs, or just a little "different" MMOs, or even MMOs that many people would necessarily be interested in PLAYING. It is about MMOs that stray FAR FROM THE "NORM." They are not LIKE any other MMO, in...well...pretty much ANY way, other than being massively multiplayer, and that is pretty much it.
These are games that, popular or not, "good" or not, DARED TO STRAY from the traditionally formulated MMO. And I'm sorry, but DFO, and EVE don't meet that criteria. Actually, EVE does more than DFO. Darkfall, while being interesting and not "the same old same old," STILL stayed with the traditional fantasy setting...it still has combat with swords and shields, it still has PvP (although done a LITTLE different, Tibia...a very old 2D game, and UO, both "did this before" or did something very similar).
And yes, EVE does SOME things differently. I think you'll see that the games listed, do a lot more than "some" things differently. For instance....Puzzle Pirates. Is there another game out there, that is an MMO, that even REMOTELY resembles it? No. Is it something I'd want to play every day? No. BUT THAT ISN'T THE POINT! lol
The OP was listing games that were WAY WAY off the "beaten path," as far as MMOs go. I do not understand why some people are having such a hard time understanding why the games that are on the list are there.
It's really not that complex, people.....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
However same old always = pure shit.
So progress is still better.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
However same old always = pure shit.
So progress is still better.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
Because most here have Zero reading comprehension and full of Fanboi fire.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
However same old always = pure shit.
So progress is still better.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
I have no idea what you're saying, i think the list is fine... it's what i said above, it doesn't have to be a list of the best mmos of all time, and not even one with ALL the innovative MMO's, those that invite rethiking and new visions of peristancy and massivity.
They are just examples of designing outside of the(miserable, cheap marketing) box. The message is wholesome, and it reaches, and that's all there's to it, questioning who's 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and some not being there(planetside etc) is matter of top5-junkies.
the best blog of the net
However same old always = pure shit.
So progress is still better.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
I have no idea what you're saying, i think the list is fine... it's what i said above, it doesn't have to be a list of the best mmos of all time, and not even one with ALL the innovative MMO's, those that invite rethiking and new visions of peristancy and massivity.
They are just examples of designing outside of the(miserable, cheap marketing) box. The message is wholesome, and it reaches, and that's all there's to it, questioning who's 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and some not being there(planetside etc) is matter of top5-junkies.
My comment wasn't to you. It was regarding what I highlighted in orange. I was just too lazy to go looking for THAT poster. I apologize for the misunderstanding that I caused when I also quoted YOUR post.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
i suspected so, i thought you were talking to me because "different isn't always better'' is not, i think, a misunderstanding of the topic, it's a generic declaration of love for conservatorism. This person here is stating that clones are better than awkward broken originality.
Which is of course demented... that because you're afraid of failure, you should stick with what you know works well, being tested by others.
It's like the manifesto of gutless WIMPS.
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GREAT LIST Jon.. may the world of MMOs get filled up with more of THESE type of games rather than rehashing of WoW.. kudeos to all developers who think outside the box and give us greater and more diverse gaming opportunities!
So progress is still better.
Show me just WHERE the OP said these games were even better than checkers, much less any AAA MMO. Show me. You can't. He never said that.
Again....why can no one understand the topic here?
Because most here have Zero reading comprehension and full of Fanboi fire.
It may sound stupid but gamers of current generation are sort of a "brainwashed" by which games are fun today and which games suck ass. Everything today is about numbers. If publisher says - "our game has 1 million characters" - yay, everyone happy and agrees that game is super cool even though 50% of those people didn't even try it and nobody really cared about paying attention to word "characters". Everything today is about how media hands that game over to the player and how good the marketing campaign is. Take Dragon Age for example. All this marketing campaign, it makes the game look like its some kind of fast paced thriller with sex scenes, mass decapitations and blood covered heroes that player supposedly will play. In reality this game is actually a tactical sim, when you have to pause at least 25 times every time you meet another bunch of mobs, yes there is blood, yes there are some scenes of people in swimsuits, but game itself is completely different from what the marketing campaign and launch trailers suggest.
I mean look around, what are the 2 best promoted gaming genres these days - fantasy MMO and first person shooters, then some variations of either. I think that gaming industry is degrading towards the linear dumb games. PvP and FPS - two most popular words in gaming world today. Thats why such a reaction from some gamers. They just can't comprehand other genres than what community tells them and most developers give them today are the most fun.Tthey are being fed by media that this is what you have to focus on and what is todays games. PvP and FPS. If you don't you suck, friends look strangely at you and you are just a plain loser. "You are playing Sim City? Wow, man you're strange. We are all playing Modern Warfare 2". Or something like that.
EvE Online does everything you put there but better?
( By the way, in Darkfall, there are not multiple classes, there is only ONE class. )
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead.
There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Yes, I agree. It's the very antithesis to creative genius, which many proclaim they want, but when seeing anything that deviates from the accepted "norm" (i.e., conservative boundaries of acceptance), people tend to "freak out," and say, "but...but...that's not what we MEANT."
It's like telling an artist to create something fantastic and to use their imagination, and then when they present you with the finished piece, saying to them, "But when I said be creative, I MEANT....within these particular boundaries." Uhm....NO.
I completely understand why the games listed are there....and why the games NOT listed...are not. I think the list is actually very insightful and hopefully will encourage SOME developer out there somewhere to roll the dice.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Darkfall doesnt belong in the list because it isnt doing anything different or new. Its using the mould that UO used back in 1997. The article is pointing out games have that shifted away from the traditional fantasy (or sci-fi) norm by using a completely different set of mechanics and play style. Thats why games like puzzle pirates and tale in the desert are in there, because there arent any other games quite like them. For example, TitD has no combat which is very unusual, and puzzle pirates uses puzzles and mini games for all of its tasks.
Look at it like this; In Darkfall, you kill things using your sword or a spell, and craft items such as armour and weapons. It shares these game mechanics with games such as wow, or lotro, or allods, whatever. Darkfall might use an fps or tps viewpoint compared to wow or lotr tab target style, but at its base, its no different in that you can log in your character, run around in a world and kill things. In Cities XL, you cannot log in and equip your awesome sword or ownage and kill the goblins or bears outside the big city of evil and rank up your fireball or visit your trainer for the newest rank of hamstring. Thats what this article is pointing out, and thats why thoe games are on the list.
As a huge Darkfall fan, Darkfall should not be on this list. The games listed moved WAYY away from any basic mold of a typical MMO. Nice article, I enjoyed the read.
EvE Online does everything you put there but better?
( By the way, in Darkfall, there are not multiple classes, there is only ONE class. )
EvE is a completely different game where your avatar is a spaceship, but if you want to believe they are the same go right ahead.
There are numerous class builds in Darkfall, and if you don't know this, you are not playing the game or keeping up with it. Due to specializations, this isn't a subject worthy of debate, as any one who is playing knows I am correct and you are wrong. You can't benefit by a number of advantages in Magery, Archery or Melee without giving up some thing. This promotes multiple builds. There is one character slot, not one class. You are totally wrong.
-CC
I'm playing.
I completely disagree with you.
And DF doesn't belong on the list, it's really not any dif. then games like AC and SB; infact, it aspires to be the WoW of PvP, FPSMMO's.
Nice article.
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
Awesome article. Loved it. Was sad when Seed went under. Was a shame
Played them all, except for XLCities, and I can honestly say, I've never played anything like them, before or after. Even Project Entropia is still a recipe following game, only difference is that instead of gold and coppers or credits or isks, you use RL monehs.
Oh, and to no one in particular: I'm right, you're wrong! (This will be my new bestest motto in the wholest world).
"So I contend that the player stories will always be more powerful than the scripted stories that we try to tell the players."
- Will Wright
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
Awesome article. Loved it. Was sad when Seed went under. Was a shame
That is hilarious. I only found 2 "classes" *coughthingstoroleplaycough* that were worth even trying. Put bluntly, crafter and ganker. Sure there's the wizard, archer, warrior, etc but they mean nothing without a good reason to play one.
Also, I can say that I'm ashamed I never got to play Seed. It's the one game I really regret never playing. Any other game I regret never playing I can just pick up and play. :<
Check out the MUD I'm making!
Great article,
I really enjoyed the idea for this one, expand the horizons of people open up to alternatives, and I really like the choices of the games too.
As for the comments guys please Darkfall is nothing Innovative or different ...unless you started your MMORPG career with WoW, then yes they would seem as different and be perceived as innovative...it all depends against what your comparing them and how long you have been around.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
All I can say is....
YESSS!!! YOHOHO! Puzzle Pirates made Numero Uno!!!
For those that love puzzle games, you have to at least give it a try. It's as much a sandbox as any other open world MMO. It just depends on how good you are. I played it on a whim and, although I took about a 6-8 month extended vacation from it (personal family reasons... hard to play a game that was your only connection to a deceased family member), I haven't really quit playing it in over two years.
For whoever asked about someone else doing a skill system like EVE that is train over time without grind XP, check out Perpetuum Online here on mmorpg.com or at www.perpetuum-online.com.
Now, when I first saw the article, I thought "I wonder where EVE will fall at?" I am happily disappointed that it didn't make the list because none of these games fit anything at all other than they are multiplyer. I only have two questions, though... "Why Second Life?" and "Why Cities XL?" One isn't a game and the other isn't an RPG. (I have noticed that mmorpg.com is turning more into MMOG instead of just RPGs... sad, as I can think of a lot of other resources for MMOGs in general that are more specific when I'm looking for something.)
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
heh.. granted, it does sound a bit arrogant, but the reply was to a person posting DFO has one class. Even if one were to completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, still, one class would be so versatile, it would be similar to rolling all the classes in other games in to one character. So even assuming no one specializes and reaches maximum skills in all 10 (TEN) magic schools, masters all 8 (EIGHT) melee schools, masters shield, masters archery, switches between the Cloth, Leather, Bone, Chain, Scale, Plate, all the armors that have their benefits and weakness, it should be obvious in a PvP game, you can't possibly use all of those skills and armor variables in one fight. With global cool-downs, one must pick a play style. So yes, to say there is "one class" in DFO is absolutely wrong, when the above is understood and the discussion occurs within context of the game play.
I won't argue the innovative points further, but stand-by my original post on the subject. I shall of course admit there are definately elements of prior MMO's in DFO, like 100% of every MMO made, even the ones listed. I played UO from release in Sept. 97', loved it, but we couldn't build and own cities, or engage in sea warfare. DFO has taken many of the elements of UO and AC-Darktide; it's true, and sure Shadowbane had ctiy building and sieges, but DFO is its own game and on the aggregate, quite unique
There has never been a game like DFO where all the elements it contains can be found in one game, and to all you EvE fans, I'm sure you have a great game pvp game there too, but you can only compare in theory. EvE is a Space Sim where your avatar is a spaceship. So while I recognize the open PvP and a few other aspets in common with DFO, they are very different games;; more like cousins, but certainly not twins.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
For some reason, I just had to quote that... Made me laugh. Nothing like a cheap laugh.
heh.. granted, it does sound a bit arrogant, but the reply was to a person posting DFO has one class. Even if one were to completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, still, one class would be so versatile, it would be similar to rolling all the classes in other games in to one character. So even assuming no one specializes and reaches maximum skills in all 10 (TEN) magic schools, masters all 8 (EIGHT) melee schools, masters shield, masters archery, switches between the Cloth, Leather, Bone, Chain, Scale, Plate, all the armors that have their benefits and weakness, it should be obvious in a PvP game, you can't possibly use all of those skills and armor variables in one fight. With global cool-downs, one must pick a play style. So yes, to say there is "one class" in DFO is absolutely wrong, when the above is understood and the discussion occurs within context of the game play.
I won't argue the innovative points further, but stand-by my original post on the subject. I shall of course admit there are definately elements of prior MMO's in DFO, like 100% of every MMO made, even the ones listed. I played UO from release in Sept. 97', loved it, but we couldn't build and own cities, or engage in sea warfare. DFO has taken many of the elements of UO and AC-Darktide; it's true, and sure Shadowbane had ctiy building and sieges, but DFO is its own game and on the aggregate, quite unique
There has never been a game like DFO where all the elements it contains can be found in one game, and to all you EvE fans, I'm sure you have a great game pvp game there too, but you can only compare in theory. EvE is a Space Sim where your avatar is a spaceship. So while I recognize the open PvP and a few other aspets in common with DFO, they are very different games;; more like cousins, but certainly not twins.
-CC
What innovations does DFO has that EVE does not?
I'll list a few that EVE has that DFO does not :
Single shard where everyone plays on the same server, no payed expansions so everyone is on the same page, offline skill training, regulated RMT that blends nicely in the game and economy ( aka plexes ), CSM which is a counsil elected by the players that advice the developer face to face what should be fixed, changed or improved on the game, ...
Now DFO has alot of sandbox elements you can find in EVE and UO, making it nice, breaking the mold of EQ, WoW, LOTRO, ... but not making it that special imho.
The games listed here are very special, not good per sé.
I do believe that EVE has more right to belong in this list than DFO, MO, FE or any of the latest sandboxes out there, still I am fine with it that it is not on the list, because like I said, the listed games are pretty out of the ordinary.
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Exactly. people prefer to recognize more of the same, not discover things that may make them feel lost in a universe so big they can't handle. The so-called fence syndrome! Infact most of the people, and here as well, DO ask for innovation, but ironically they assume it is inside the boundaries of a typical WoW game, some are not READY to abandon the concepts of levels, quickbar moves, down to the very concept of PvP & PvE, which at the time of, say, Ultima Online, didn't exist. It's a matter of forgetting everything you know and start from zero, that scares people. But it would give us so much, we would learn many new things about society, and war, and future, things that in reallife can't be learned... the point is that some people don't think a videogame should teach anything.
Well this is a bit digressive, anyhow. Although part of the problem is that marketing experts conclude ''players want more of the same'', and they exploit it, i'm sure the problem is not just that
Finally i agree, the OP invites rethinking and it achieved it. But the message needs more visibility... it's pretty much the same message i'm trying to spread about with a bunch of articles down at gamasutra... (i'm McAndrews)
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As someone who was involved in the seed comunity, I wanted to point out a few errors in what was written. While the easiest conclusion to make about seed might be that the concept was unworkable the actual reason for its failure was fiscal in nature. Seeds development team was small and inexperienced. The game was released before even the core game features were finished, and because of their lack of cash they were unable to fix things fast enough to accomidate us fickel gamers. The choices seed made in development didnt have nearly the effect on its demise as did the inability to finish the game before release. I would hate to think that seed would be held up as a reason why a non combat game would be doomed to failing. Even with its flaws it had a strong growing comunity, and if the deves could have had the resources I think it would have ended up a very strong nich product.
I see a patern in these discussions here and im starting to be annoyed by this everytimne starting with WoW and keep telling us that there is nothing wrong with it but...
Why constantly bring up WoW while you so it seems talk about other games.
This sneaky WoW promotion is sickening bah:(
Game is not even good, it have already conquer the world why keep promoting it is beyond me.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.