Sandbox and Themepark types: It's not that black or white, guys.

Thenarius · December 2009

Especially in a fantasy setting, you'll need a healthy amount of both types to create that "player freedom" game you always wanted to. You can't just add a world, skill levels instead of normal levels and call it a good game.

To have a good sandbox game, you'll need a lot of "themepark" elements like quests(I'd prefer about 200-300 epic quest chains that end up with summoning a demon etc) and a sense of progression.

Also, a sandbox should have A LOT of content: even player houses, the most basic form of "content", should have a lot of options(player crops, guard NPCs, even quests to improve it).

These are just a few examples, but I think it's pointless to try to build a sanbox without any tools and some NPC content.

At the end of the day, it's not the "cool box features" like FFA, Full Loot, Made for Hardcore Players, FPS combat who's gonna make a good game, but the actual good ideas that offer a lot of freedom to the player, while still not feeling way too overdone.

Limiting your mindset and excluding some features just because they are "themeparkish" is simply stupid.

metalhead980 · December 2009

I've never understood why people say Sandbox games lack content.

What is content to you?

Last time I checked Sandbox games had missions/quests, dungeons, raids, a reason to pvp. we even have stuff like non-instanced arenas, Events and player made content (player designed quests and dungeons).

Do you want a story to lead you around the game world and introduce you to every zone? is that the content you want?

Please explain what content your refering to?

I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

eggpod · December 2009

Originally posted by metalhead980

I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

Past experience perhaps. SWG was an awesome sandbox to begin with, but over time the lack of enough new content (or new tools/toys) was a big factor in why I got bored with it and left.

Thenarius · December 2009

Originally posted by metalhead980
I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

Because, they do mostly.

You need a lot of tools to have a good sandbox game(EVE is probably the only current-gen that has them). You can't just add housing, chopping and other things and say: "Ok, guys, you got a lot of freedom".

Someone needs to create a proper fantasy game which has the proper tools to be good: from a diverse range of non-combat options that are efficient in the game(See: Having a garden in your house backyard) and can even bring you infamy in the entire server to interesting skills and tools to play, not just PvP 24/7.

Then I can finally say: I got a lot of freedom in this game because I can play it MY way.

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by metalhead980
I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

Because, they do mostly.

You need a lot of tools to have a good sandbox game(EVE is probably the only current-gen that has them). You can't just add housing, chopping and other things and say: "Ok, guys, you got a lot of freedom".

Someone needs to create a proper fantasy game which has the proper tools to be good: from a diverse range of non-combat options that are efficient in the game(See: Having a garden in your house backyard) and can even bring you infamy in the entire server to interesting skills and tools to play, not just PvP 24/7.

Then I can finally say: I got a lot of freedom in this game because I can play it MY way.

What game lets you just have a house or chop wood and thats it? All of these tools have mechanic that support each other.

Take housing as an example.

You have a house, soon others have one and you put a town together. Within this town you have a small community that decides to fill the town out with traders, smiths, woodworkers. Then the town needs a few defenders.

This town starts to become known throughout the game as an excellent trade hub, people come from all over to trade.

As the town becomes more and more popular other towns are built in the area for easier trade or even to be in direct conflict with the original town.

Rivalries are started, wars are waged, towns are burnt to the ground.

All of this by just giving people housing and gathering/crafting skills.

This town will be remembered for as long as the game is running.

Now if this isnt freedom and content I have no idea what is.

The tools are already given to you, just think outside the box and work with them.

I'm still waiting to hear what content actually is in your opinion btw.

UknownAspect · December 2009

The problem is the way content and progression is measured in sandbox games is through player control and pvp elements. With typical "themepark" style MMOs, this is measured by something concrete and unchanging like raids, or progressive dungeons. Something you can show as an achievement to people.

I think when most people say the word "content" they are merely meaning it as a measurable way to show their worth in a game. When it comes to sandboxes, this can be done in such a plethora of ways, but none are defined by the game's boundaries. If I'm a good trader I pull in assloads of cash, if I'm a good fighter, I'll rack up one hell of a kill sheet, if my guild is powerful they will have more territory, etc. etc.

Yes these sandbox games have tons of content, but they often go in different directions and they are spread throughout the community and its playstyles. While "themepark" games have content that is measurable and is completable by everyone.

So I think most of the miscomunication here lies in your definition of "content".

TBH, I feel that there needs to be a game with "content" for both. Sandbox gameplay combined with a measurable progression allowing people to tout their epeen and for pirates to bring them down, and rival guilds to be able to keep them in check.

Axehilt · December 2009

Originally posted by metalhead980

I've never understood why people say Sandbox games lack content.
What is content to you?
Last time I checked Sandbox games had missions/quests, dungeons, raids, a reason to pvp. we even have stuff like non-instanced arenas, Events and player made content (player designed quests and dungeons).
Do you want a story to lead you around the game world and introduce you to every zone? is that the content you want?
Please explain what content your refering to?
I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

Simply having quests really comes nowhere near the sheer amount of content and variety of the first 24 hours of WOW gameplay, compared to my first 24 hours of EVE (and especially Darkfall.)

The sheer amount of new places I visited, people I helped, different tasks I did, different things I saw, different abilities I got, and different monsters I fought, is completely on a different scale from most sandbox games.

Of the sandboxes I've tried lately, H&H probably surpasses EVE and DF for how much variety of content you actually get to play with in the first 24 hours of play. Doesn't have near as much in the longrun as EVE (neither of them do) but it's a game which immediately opened itself up and empowered players to do cool/fun things, rather than keep them months away from doing anything interesting (or at least making it abnormally hard to find people to do interesting things with.)

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by UknownAspect

The problem is the way content and progression is measured in sandbox games is through player control and pvp elements. With typical "themepark" style MMOs, this is measured by something concrete and unchanging like raids, or progressive dungeons. Something you can show as an achievement to people.
I think when most people say the word "content" they are merely meaning it as a measurable way to show their worth in a game. When it comes to sandboxes, this can be done in such a plethora of ways, but none are defined by the game's boundaries. If I'm a good trader I pull in assloads of cash, if I'm a good fighter, I'll rack up one hell of a kill sheet, if my guild is powerful they will have more territory, etc. etc.
Yes these sandbox games have tons of content, but they often go in different directions and they are spread throughout the community and its playstyles. While "themepark" games have content that is measurable and is completable by everyone.
So I think most of the miscomunication here lies in your definition of "content".

TBH, I feel that there needs to be a game with "content" for both. Sandbox gameplay combined with a measurable progression allowing people to tout their epeen and for pirates to bring them down, and rival guilds to be able to keep them in check.

So content is a more focused goal for the entire game population? Like raiding progression or a pvp ladder system?

IF thats true why is that associated with the word Freedom in the OP?

Seems rather limited if you ask me.

Ibluerate · December 2009

There will never be an MMORPG that is truly Sandbox, because a pure sandbox MMORPG would basically be sticking a bunch of people in a forest, and giving them free reign to build cities, crush cities, and do whatever the fuck they felt like doing with the surrounding area.

Until that kind of Sandbox comes along, and it is made WELL, I'll stick away from these so-called sandbox MMOs.

Kenaoshi · December 2009

nah ,ppl DONT wanna a definition of sandbox/themepark they just wanna grow their duchbagery

"oh im 1333skillz ol´skool gamer of a failed game sandbox im l33et ur noot thempark wow carebear blakh"

Real player would play either game if they offered a gaming experience subpar of what their are looking for.

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

I've never understood why people say Sandbox games lack content.
What is content to you?
Last time I checked Sandbox games had missions/quests, dungeons, raids, a reason to pvp. we even have stuff like non-instanced arenas, Events and player made content (player designed quests and dungeons).
Do you want a story to lead you around the game world and introduce you to every zone? is that the content you want?
Please explain what content your refering to?
I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

Simply having quests really comes nowhere near the sheer amount of content and variety of the first 24 hours of WOW gameplay, compared to my first 24 hours of EVE (and especially Darkfall.)

The sheer amount of new places I visited, people I helped, different tasks I did, different things I saw, different abilities I got, and different monsters I fought, is completely on a different scale from most sandbox games.

Of the sandboxes I've tried lately, H&H probably surpasses EVE and DF for how much variety of content you actually get to play with in the first 24 hours of play. Doesn't have near as much in the longrun as EVE (neither of them do) but it's a game which immediately opened itself up and empowered players to do cool/fun things, rather than keep them months away from doing anything interesting (or at least making it abnormally hard to find people to do interesting things with.)

Well if content is just more interesting quests/missions and more variety in mob types I agree sandbox games could liven that up a bit when it comes to pve stuff.

But is that all? MY game has only 50 mob types instead of 200 and random missions instead of quest chains that lead me to zones and it lacks content?

133794m3r · December 2009

I'm not evne going to read this thread. This is probably the 10th time i've seen a thread title with something along the lines of "sandbox vs. themepark" and it's getting old... I can now FINALLY say that i see that this is one of the most common reoccuring topics on the forums.

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by Ibluerate

There will never be an MMORPG that is truly Sandbox, because a pure sandbox MMORPG would basically be sticking a bunch of people in a forest, and giving them free reign to build cities, crush cities, and do whatever the fuck they felt like doing with the surrounding area.
Until that kind of Sandbox comes along, and it is made WELL, I'll stick away from these so-called sandbox MMOs.

I could do all of that in the sandbox games I play. the ones that dont have city building atleast have territory control and its the same thing really.

What is "well made" to you anyway? I hear this alot also. Games like Eve and Ryzom have very little bugs and a whole mess of stuff to do in them.

Care to explain what you mean by that?

uquipu · December 2009

The ambiguous terms 'sandbox' and 'theme park' terms need to be replaced with 'freedom'. Just how free are you to do what you want?

Second Life has the most freedom. The rest of the MMOs are more restricted with some being less free than others.

Kyleran · December 2009

What makes a game a themepark isn't so much the "tools" it has, as many have rightly pointed out, the same tools exist in both game types (some go so far as to say WOW is as much of a sandbox as EVE,) but rather how player progression through the game is managed.

Themeparks tend to lead their players down a more or less predetermined path. First, you clear out the quests in the starter zone, then you go to the next zone over and clear most of the quests there. Sometimes they mix it up and have players go to 2 zones, or offer some other choices, but by and by the player is strongly encouraged (rewarded) to stick to the script.

Sandboxes really have no such script. In a game like EVE, once you get out of the tutorial, you're pretty much on your own. There is a script of sorts if you follow the mission running path, which more or less leads you from level 1 to level 4, 5 missions, but outside of that, you're pretty much on your own.

Regardless, at no point is the player given a skill path to follow, its up to them to determine what to train, what order to train and focus on the skills that will lead them in their chosen direction. (combat, mining, exploration, industry etc).

More than once an EVE player has felt directionless (myself included) and I've had to do some reading (and soul searching) to determine my next course of action.

The good thing is there's so many roads to chose from, and even after 2.5 years and having 3 accounts, there are many things I've still yet to do. (and want to try one day, such as piracy)

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by uquipu

The ambiguous terms 'sandbox' and 'theme park' terms need to be replaced with 'freedom'. Just how free are you to do what you want?
Second Life has the most freedom. The rest of the MMOs are more restricted with some being less free than others.

heh, You really love second life. If the mechanics didn't complete blow hot ass I would play that game.

Kyleran · December 2009

Originally posted by 133794m3r

I'm not evne going to read this thread. This is probably the 10th time i've seen a thread title with something along the lines of "sandbox vs. themepark" and it's getting old... I can now FINALLY say that i see that this is one of the most common reoccuring topics on the forums.

Too late, you already did read it. But then again, why did you think we care?

We're here to discuss, rant, badger, troll etc, all others need not apply.

Ibluerate · December 2009

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Ibluerate

There will never be an MMORPG that is truly Sandbox, because a pure sandbox MMORPG would basically be sticking a bunch of people in a forest, and giving them free reign to build cities, crush cities, and do whatever the fuck they felt like doing with the surrounding area.
Until that kind of Sandbox comes along, and it is made WELL, I'll stick away from these so-called sandbox MMOs.

I could do all of that in the sandbox games I play. the ones that dont have city building atleast have territory control and its the same thing really.

What is "well made" to you anyway? I hear this alot also. Games like Eve and Ryzom have very little bugs and a whole mess of stuff to do in them.

Care to explain what you mean by that?

I won't know a well made game until I see one, because it's all based on opinion.

Kyleran · December 2009

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by uquipu

The ambiguous terms 'sandbox' and 'theme park' terms need to be replaced with 'freedom'. Just how free are you to do what you want?
Second Life has the most freedom. The rest of the MMOs are more restricted with some being less free than others.

heh, You really love second life. If the mechanics didn't complete blow hot ass I would play that game.

Yeah, 2nd life takes the term freedom just a bit too far for me, be sort of like I'm free to write my own novel. No thanks, I enjoy reading the works of others, they're better than I.

Mrbloodworth · December 2009

Originally posted by Ibluerate

There will never be an MMORPG that is truly Sandbox, because a pure sandbox MMORPG would basically be sticking a bunch of people in a forest, and giving them free reign to build cities, crush cities, and do whatever the fuck they felt like doing with the surrounding area.
Until that kind of Sandbox comes along, and it is made WELL, I'll stick away from these so-called sandbox MMOs.

Wurm online.

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by Kyleran

What makes a game a themepark isn't so much the "tools" it has, as many have rightly pointed out, the same tools exist in both game types (some go so far as to say WOW is as much of a sandbox as EVE,) but rather how player progression through the game is managed.
Themeparks tend to lead their players down a more or less predetermined path. First, you clear out the quests in the starter zone, then you go to the next zone over and clear most of the quests there. Sometimes they mix it up and have players go to 2 zones, or offer some other choices, but by and by the player is strongly encouraged (rewarded) to stick to the script.
Sandboxes really have no such script. In a game like EVE, once you get out of the tutorial, you're pretty much on your own. There is a script of sorts if you follow the mission running path, which more or less leads you from level 1 to level 4, 5 missions, but outside of that, you're pretty much on your own.
Regardless, at no point is the player given a skill path to follow, its up to them to determine what to train, what order to train and focus on the skills that will lead them in their chosen direction. (combat, mining, exploration, industry etc).
More than once an EVE player has felt directionless (myself included) and I've had to do some reading (and soul searching) to determine my next course of action.
The good thing is there's so many roads to chose from, and even after 2.5 years and having 3 accounts, there are many things I've still yet to do. (and want to try one day, such as piracy)

So the feeling of being lost means there's a lack of content to these guys?

I can understand if you need to be guided during your gameplay, a set goal that the game gives you but thats not how Open ended games work.

Everything is optional but that doesnt mean there's nothing to do.

I can quest, raid, pvp, rp and whatever else a mmo has to offer in a sandbox.

I think the issue is you have to find that stuff in a sandbox game, you have to try to get into it. IN more linear games its served to you on a platter.

Honestly I would rather not have a platter rammed in my face.

I thought these guys were going to point to some content that I wasn't aware of not ask for more handholding in the sandbox/open ended sub genre.

Fawarendan · December 2009

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

I've never understood why people say Sandbox games lack content.
What is content to you?
Last time I checked Sandbox games had missions/quests, dungeons, raids, a reason to pvp. we even have stuff like non-instanced arenas, Events and player made content (player designed quests and dungeons).
Do you want a story to lead you around the game world and introduce you to every zone? is that the content you want?
Please explain what content your refering to?
I don;t mean to come off as hostile but why do people feel open ended games lack content?

Simply having quests really comes nowhere near the sheer amount of content and variety of the first 24 hours of WOW gameplay, compared to my first 24 hours of EVE (and especially Darkfall.)

The sheer amount of new places I visited, people I helped, different tasks I did, different things I saw, different abilities I got, and different monsters I fought, is completely on a different scale from most sandbox games.

Of the sandboxes I've tried lately, H&H probably surpasses EVE and DF for how much variety of content you actually get to play with in the first 24 hours of play. Doesn't have near as much in the longrun as EVE (neither of them do) but it's a game which immediately opened itself up and empowered players to do cool/fun things, rather than keep them months away from doing anything interesting (or at least making it abnormally hard to find people to do interesting things with.)

And what's the point of killing 10 boars for 24 hours? 99% of WoW quests sucks really hard (like in most MMO's), specially in the 1~60 experience, although a few are worth playing in BC and WotLK. Note that I'm not saying that EVE or DF quests are good, most are just as pointless and useless as the wow ones, but at least there are other FUN things to do besides questing (and no, I do not enjoy wow raiding thaaaat much).

Questing should be a hard, long, complex and valuable task, with really unique rewards (performance x reward could be taken from raiding to general questing) and a worth feeling at the end, not just something u will do for fifteen minutes because of a shield everyone already sold at the npc vendor, that doesn't make any sense. Prior quality to quantity for gods sake, and we will have better mmos with the same amount of gameplay hours, be it a themepark or a sandbox (but why put effort behind it if u can hire some bots to the quest designing chairs and be the number one MMO in the market, huh?).

About the OP, u know, there's really no FULL sandbox or themepark mmo. Almost every game out there nowadays has at least some crap crafting ("sandbox") and crap quests ("themepark") systems. All we can do is wait for someone to achieve again the right balance between them.

UknownAspect · December 2009

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Kyleran

What makes a game a themepark isn't so much the "tools" it has, as many have rightly pointed out, the same tools exist in both game types (some go so far as to say WOW is as much of a sandbox as EVE,) but rather how player progression through the game is managed.
Themeparks tend to lead their players down a more or less predetermined path. First, you clear out the quests in the starter zone, then you go to the next zone over and clear most of the quests there. Sometimes they mix it up and have players go to 2 zones, or offer some other choices, but by and by the player is strongly encouraged (rewarded) to stick to the script.
Sandboxes really have no such script. In a game like EVE, once you get out of the tutorial, you're pretty much on your own. There is a script of sorts if you follow the mission running path, which more or less leads you from level 1 to level 4, 5 missions, but outside of that, you're pretty much on your own.
Regardless, at no point is the player given a skill path to follow, its up to them to determine what to train, what order to train and focus on the skills that will lead them in their chosen direction. (combat, mining, exploration, industry etc).
More than once an EVE player has felt directionless (myself included) and I've had to do some reading (and soul searching) to determine my next course of action.
The good thing is there's so many roads to chose from, and even after 2.5 years and having 3 accounts, there are many things I've still yet to do. (and want to try one day, such as piracy)

So the feeling of being lost means there's a lack of content to these guys?

I can understand if you need to be guided during your gameplay, a set goal that the game gives you but thats not how Open ended games work.

Everything is optional but that doesnt mean there's nothing to do.

I can quest, raid, pvp, rp and whatever else a mmo has to offer in a sandbox.

I think the issue is you have to find that stuff in a sandbox game, you have to try to get into it. IN more linear games its served to you on a platter.

Honestly I would rather not have a platter rammed in my face.

I thought these guys were going to point to some content that I wasn't aware of not ask for more handholding in the sandbox/open ended sub genre.

I really think there needs to be a sandbox game with a little handholding in the beginning if not just for the purposes of getting people interested in the sandbox. One of the biggest problems with sandbox games is that there is no real introduction, and you are immidiately thrown into a ruthless world of kill or be killed.

Now there is nothing wrong with that for most people, but I know there are plenty of people that need to have a little handholding when they first start. It doesn't need to be something that persists throughout the game, but just jumping into the fray can be rough at times.

It's not that people will hate sandbox games because it's harder to compete, it's just that people will hate sandbox games because it's so hard to get established. So find a way to get players established and give them a reason to protect their stuff or move out to enter the harsh sandbox world and they will enjoy it and feel purpose.

You need to serve things to people on a platter if you want to get them interested. Go to a restaurant, do you want a chef to cook your meal? or do you want a raw peice of meat and be told to cook it yourself. Honestly, I think most people (if entering the world of food to be enjoyed) would want the chef to show them how to cook the food and then set them loose to do it themselves. I think it could directly apply to MMOs in this manner.

metalhead980 · December 2009

Originally posted by UknownAspect

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Kyleran

What makes a game a themepark isn't so much the "tools" it has, as many have rightly pointed out, the same tools exist in both game types (some go so far as to say WOW is as much of a sandbox as EVE,) but rather how player progression through the game is managed.
Themeparks tend to lead their players down a more or less predetermined path. First, you clear out the quests in the starter zone, then you go to the next zone over and clear most of the quests there. Sometimes they mix it up and have players go to 2 zones, or offer some other choices, but by and by the player is strongly encouraged (rewarded) to stick to the script.
Sandboxes really have no such script. In a game like EVE, once you get out of the tutorial, you're pretty much on your own. There is a script of sorts if you follow the mission running path, which more or less leads you from level 1 to level 4, 5 missions, but outside of that, you're pretty much on your own.
Regardless, at no point is the player given a skill path to follow, its up to them to determine what to train, what order to train and focus on the skills that will lead them in their chosen direction. (combat, mining, exploration, industry etc).
More than once an EVE player has felt directionless (myself included) and I've had to do some reading (and soul searching) to determine my next course of action.
The good thing is there's so many roads to chose from, and even after 2.5 years and having 3 accounts, there are many things I've still yet to do. (and want to try one day, such as piracy)