I mean, yeah yeah, I know it has always been so...
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The problem is that static questing will by and large almost always be dull or utter nonsense. Static quests by nature cannot alter the state of the world, otherwise players who come after you cannot enjoy the content as it will be "used up", which is not good for business. Automatically, a game that relies heavily on static questing cannot give players what they really want: A way to affect and alter the world through their actions. I think a big problem with MMOs is that they're designed to let every player "Be the Hero!". In a setup like this, quests are created which progresses the player through the world in a mostly linear fashion. The quests typically play out like a single player game but in a multiplayer setting. I think that this is the biggest fundamental absurdity in MMOs. Everyone CANNOT be the hero. MMOs need to step back from this approach. I think that, for the most part, players who are not content with the current crop of MMOs are mature enough that they don't need to be a hero to enjoy a game. Yes, there will be heroes, as there would be in any epic story, but becoming a hero would be an achievement, an accident or a way of life (defending newbies from PKers for instance). Either way, being a hero would be something to strive for, rather than a privilege of the game. I honestly think that static quests need to be a supplement to dynamic quests handed out and ran by live GMs. I fully believe that the next big MMO will be the one that takes a risk and charges more for subscription to be able to support a live GM team to undertake such a task.
You pretty much said it. The static quest system is possibly the worst "innovation' so far in the genre. Heroic, immersive, story-driven, that's all bull shit. It's linear, scripted content that plays the same for every player. Why do players get bored? Because they chew through this content, then sit around and wait for the next batch of content, which will last a whole week or two. You can't get attached to a game world like this, since you're not really a part of the world in any way...your just passing through, taking your turn on the rides.
"Why run through the content so fast? Just slow down and enjoy the journey." Good question and good point. Except that there's no "journey" in this type of game. You know where you're going at every moment (A to B to C), there's no mystery, and there's no real danger or consequences.
You could say that the static quests aren't the real problem. The real problem is that the entire game is bent around the static quests. Nothing exists in the game world unless there is some quest tied into it and most of the development focus is towards quests. Just think about that, tons of money and development time go into creating quests that players will chew through in 1 week...
The static quest system is possibly the worst "innovation' so far in the genre. Heroic, immersive, story-driven, that's all bull shit. It's linear, scripted content that plays the same for every player. Why do players get bored? Because they chew through this content, then sit around and wait for the next batch of content, which will last a whole week or two. You can't get attached to a game world like this, since you're not really a part of the world in any way...your just passing through, taking your turn on the rides.
"Why run through the content so fast? Just slow down and enjoy the journey." Good question and good point. Except that there's no "journey" in this type of game. You know where you're going at every moment (A to B to C), there's no mystery, and there's no real danger or consequences.
You could say that the static quests aren't the real problem. The real problem is that the entire game is bent around the static quests. Nothing exists in the game world unless there is some quest tied into it and most of the development focus is towards quests. Just think about that, tons of money and development time go into creating quests that players will chew through in 1 week...
There is absolutely NO body of evidence to support your opinion. The most successful MMO's with the exception of Eve are quest driven, and few non-quest driven MMO's made before or after the big WoW have shared their success. In short, people want a fairly clear means to achieve their goals, and right now, quests are one of the better ideas used.
Not that they're the final word, of course. I'd like to see something better. But for now, they are what brings folks to the MMO genre.
I mean, yeah yeah, I know it has always been so...
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
Actually there is one thing more static and meaningless and that is the XP grind. Quests replace/disguise this with a more defined, and less grindy system which is why players love them so much.
The key to evolving the system for the better is to replace the quest system with a system that privides more immersion while not devolving back into the XP grind.
Personally, I think that an achievement-based progression system would be a better replacement. If you have the title of Balrog Slayer then the dwarves will respect you and not bother you with the petty stuff anymore. Combine that with Friend of the Elves and Rider of Rohan and suddenly you are Somebody in that world.
Funny, while this can be considered an absurdity, I don't think that way when I'm actually doing the stuff. I'm thinking about how it will progress my character. Even Real Life has an absurdity to it, yet we still do it. Working for example. Getting a paycheck from week to week, saving for homes, food, entertainment, kids, and its all amounts to not really making much difference once you die. I could go on about Laws created that are absurd. Or sports, what is the real purpose of sports to hold up a silver trophy that does nothing but sit there. So you see, absurdity abounds everywhere, not just in the virtual worlds we create. I think it all comes down to perspective. What is absurd to one fellow, may be someone else's dream come true. Or something like that...
The real life argument is always flawed and really adds nothing to the discussion. Regardless, I'll bite.
I'll make an analogy. Bill Gates goes to a meeting. The board of directors asks him to do some janitorial work around Microsoft headquarters. Absolutely absurd right?
Similarly, why would a supposedly great and renowned hero be refused entry to any army, or be asked to fetch an old ladies handbag that she dropped on the path through Mirkwood?
Because there are thousands of heroes around, so it's not so absurd as it seems.
Funny, while this can be considered an absurdity, I don't think that way when I'm actually doing the stuff. I'm thinking about how it will progress my character. Even Real Life has an absurdity to it, yet we still do it. Working for example. Getting a paycheck from week to week, saving for homes, food, entertainment, kids, and its all amounts to not really making much difference once you die. I could go on about Laws created that are absurd. Or sports, what is the real purpose of sports to hold up a silver trophy that does nothing but sit there. So you see, absurdity abounds everywhere, not just in the virtual worlds we create. I think it all comes down to perspective. What is absurd to one fellow, may be someone else's dream come true. Or something like that...
The real life argument is always flawed and really adds nothing to the discussion. Regardless, I'll bite.
I'll make an analogy. Bill Gates goes to a meeting. The board of directors asks him to do some janitorial work around Microsoft headquarters. Absolutely absurd right?
Similarly, why would a supposedly great and renowned hero be refused entry to any army, or be asked to fetch an old ladies handbag that she dropped on the path through Mirkwood?
Because there are thousands of heroes around, so it's not so absurd as it seems.
If you think about it, if Microsoft cloned Bill Gates and made a thousand copies of him, it would make sense that some of them would be given menial jobs since they would not be needed for more important tasks.
Actually there is one thing more static and meaningless and that is the XP grind. Quests replace/disguise this with a more defined, and less grindy system which is why players love them so much. The key to evolving the system for the better is to replace the quest system with a system that privides more immersion while not devolving back into the XP grind. Personally, I think that an achievement-based progression system would be a better replacement. If you have the title of Balrog Slayer then the dwarves will respect you and not bother you with the petty stuff anymore. Combine that with Friend of the Elves and Rider of Rohan and suddenly you are Somebody in that world.
I agree with this.
I realize some players say that quests add tedium to these games but why are they more tedious than camping an area for 2 hours? To that end I've met quite a few players who don't like quests, they grind, but in no way are they "making their own stories" as some have suggested.
They are essentially camping an area with a group and shooting the shit on TS. I suppose what happens during that group can be a story but it doesn't really make me want to join that story.
Also, it seems that to some extent I play these more themepark games like the older games. I do more killing of mobs than quests and usually do the quests I want to do or that are relatively easy to do without running around the world to do it.
But it also seems that players feel that they have to go to quest giver, get quest, go to the part marked on the map, run back to quest giver and repeat ad infinitum.
I mean, who wants to do that every day? Andy why as one doesn't have to do this.
When I was in Moria, I would take a few quests and set out to explore. More often than not I would run intto my quest objective and finish the quest.
But in no way did I run to do x amount of quests, run back to turn them in and get more only to do it again.
why? Because that's not fun. One can play these games in different ways if one wants to.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Robsolf There is absolutely NO body of evidence to support your opinion. The most successful MMO's with the exception of Eve are quest driven, and few non-quest driven MMO's made before or after the big WoW have shared their success. In short, people want a fairly clear means to achieve their goals, and right now, quests are one of the better ideas used.
Not that they're the final word, of course. I'd like to see something better. But for now, they are what brings folks to the MMO genre.
WoW brought people to the genre, not questing.
Marketing, polish, and accessibility are why that game is ridiculously huge. Replace questing with some other form of grinding and nothing would change there. Everquest was the anomaly back in the day and the lack of a quest system didn't slow that one down much.
I mean, yeah yeah, I know it has always been so...
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
Quests nowadays are the loophole designed to grant XP, money, and items as an alternative to grinding mobs. Without getting into semantics of what "quest" should mean, generally that's what a "quest" is representative for in MMO's at this time. The biggest problem is that for the most part, as far as immersion is concerned, when quests have no relevance to the storyline whatsoever. This comic sums up my feelings rather well in the reason I only played WotLK for a month.
For me, WoW was fun. But the biggest setback for me were all the "pointless" crap they threw in as time sinks. Say for instance...
Bob informs me, like the 50,000 people before him, that he has a bear problem and he wants me to bring back 10 bear paws as proof of helping him, in return he'll make me stronger somehow, and give me a choice of a really nice sword, bow, or staff. My impressions of this are:
A. Why should I kill the bears when I could kill Bob and take what he has in the first place. If he can't kill a few bears how the hell is he going to kill me...
B. If 50k people have destroyed at least 4 bears each bringing the kill ratio to say 200k, then Bob needs a U-haul to get the fuck out of Dodge, because 4 more won't help.
Then, should I decide to help him... I wander out to find those bears just walking around minding their own business. So after mowing down a bear, I walk up to one only to find out that this bear has no (lootable) paws. What. The. Fuck. If this bear has no feet, then how in the hell is it walking around, let alone causing BOB any problems?!? Three more footless bears later, I kill one that does have ONE paw. Half an hour later, after killing 50 bears for 10 paws, I return to Bob. Bob gives me XP, some cash, and an mild upgrade for a piece of gear.
A few quests (objectives) like this I wouldn't mind... but when it's ever damned quest I can honestly say, "Yes I feel more like a messenger boy instead of a part of something epic." There wasn't much of a difference what I did in the themepark ride that I couldn't do in a sandbox. All that was different was Bob gave a weak reason to actually go kill these things that normally I'd pass up anyways, and the drop rates for stuff were altered to mask the grind. Reward was the carrot on the stick to make me jump through the timesink hoop. I'm not saying it's a horrible bad thing... but after so long with little change... man, it gets old. Reinvent the wheel, give us another word to use instead of "sandbox", or "theme park" that defines what MMO we play. The only difference really is the smoke and mirrors.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I mean, yeah yeah, I know it has always been so...
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
Quests nowadays are the loophole designed to grant XP, money, and items as an alternative to grinding mobs. Without getting into semantics of what "quest" should mean, generally that's what a "quest" is representative for in MMO's at this time. The biggest problem is that for the most part, as far as immersion is concerned, when quests have no relevance to the storyline whatsoever. This comic sums up my feelings rather well in the reason I only played WotLK for a month.
For me, WoW was fun. But the biggest setback for me were all the "pointless" crap they threw in as time sinks. Say for instance...
Bob informs me, like the 50,000 people before him, that he has a bear problem and he wants me to bring back 10 bear paws as proof of helping him, in return he'll make me stronger somehow, and give me a choice of a really nice sword, bow, or staff. My impressions of this are:
A. Why should I kill the bears when I could kill Bob and take what he has in the first place. If he can't kill a few bears how the hell is he going to kill me...
B. If 50k people have destroyed at least 4 bears each bringing the kill ratio to say 200k, then Bob needs a U-haul to get the fuck out of Dodge, because 4 more won't help.
Then, should I decide to help him... I wander out to find those bears just walking around minding their own business. So after mowing down a bear, I walk up to one only to find out that this bear has no (lootable) paws. What. The. Fuck. If this bear has no feet, then how in the hell is it walking around, let alone causing BOB any problems?!? Three more footless bears later, I kill one that does have ONE paw. Half an hour later, after killing 50 bears for 10 paws, I return to Bob. Bob gives me XP, some cash, and an mild upgrade for a piece of gear.
A few quests (objectives) like this I wouldn't mind... but when it's ever damned quest I can honestly say, "Yes I feel more like a messenger boy instead of a part of something epic." There wasn't much of a difference what I did in the themepark ride that I couldn't do in a sandbox. All that was different was Bob gave a weak reason to actually go kill these things that normally I'd pass up anyways, and the drop rates for stuff were altered to mask the grind. Reward was the carrot on the stick to make me jump through the timesink hoop. I'm not saying it's a horrible bad thing... but after so long with little change... man, it gets old. Reinvent the wheel, give us another word to use instead of "sandbox", or "theme park" that defines what MMO we play. The only difference really is the smoke and mirrors.
Well, prolly you are so aggressive you ruined the bear paws and bob only takes undamaged and really good paws? But of course I agree with you. I mean we are all so used to those habits we somehow stopped questioning then. We suppose they have been here forever and are going to stay forever. It is this rigid thinking we need to break up if we want to see really new and better MMOs.
For what have the recent 2 years of new MMOs been other than the repetition of the same WOW/EQ formula? It has been done too often. You grind quests, you do hilarious stuff to get XP, and sorry thats the worst reason to do something IMO. When I want to do a quest for XP and reward, thats fine, but when I begin to think, ok I do this to get XP and reward, then something is flawed. Fundamentally.
Let me make another daring example: the existence and wide spread use of gold buying is for me an alarming sign that something fundamental in MMO design is flawed. If the gaming process was fun enough, people would not buy gold. They would enjoy playing the game and everything would come in a natural balance. The widespread existenc of gold selling tells me, that something is very very wrong in MMOs. Just as one example, and I think that HAS a lot to do with the fact the quest-xp-reward model we use is not the very best. I mean look at the first 20 levels in Age of Conan, in Tortage. They were great. You were involved in a personal story, and honestly I never cared rats ass about XP or reward, I wanted to experience the story. Or take any good single player RPG. What is it that keeps you playing Mass Effect or Dragon Age or Oblivion or Fable or whatever? Is it XP? Is it this uber sword reward? Prolly not, I mean the main reason is you have some really cool story and something going on you want to follow.
The existing MMORPGs are more like "lets make a list of 20000 quests and drop them all over". End of story. Thats whats wrong. Most are totally unrelated. With some exceptions, and some are really good and show what is possible. For instance if you are playing Myrkwood expansion for LOTRO, try to solve that crime that happened in Augh...whatever that burned down village is called. Heck, it was like playing CSI in Middle Earth. I mean it wasnt earth shattering, but it was telling a story about the place, something related to the ongoings there and not some "bring me 20 swine snouts for moms favourite swine snout pie" rubbish.
The chances are there and not so difficult, but most MMO makers are just having no hand for that. Just to say it clear: writing is an art. Its not something you or me can just do because we know the alphabet. Just as less and you and I can just compose a symphony merely because we can sing, so is writing an art you have to get professionals for it. Bioware does, and god knows it shows! But in MMOs we still get stories made by programmers who think something they find cool. And thats just not good enough these days. Investing into good, REAL writers is something the MMO gaming industry still has to learn.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You pretty much said it. The static quest system is possibly the worst "innovation' so far in the genre. Heroic, immersive, story-driven, that's all bull shit. It's linear, scripted content that plays the same for every player. Why do players get bored? Because they chew through this content, then sit around and wait for the next batch of content, which will last a whole week or two. You can't get attached to a game world like this, since you're not really a part of the world in any way...your just passing through, taking your turn on the rides.
"Why run through the content so fast? Just slow down and enjoy the journey." Good question and good point. Except that there's no "journey" in this type of game. You know where you're going at every moment (A to B to C), there's no mystery, and there's no real danger or consequences.
You could say that the static quests aren't the real problem. The real problem is that the entire game is bent around the static quests. Nothing exists in the game world unless there is some quest tied into it and most of the development focus is towards quests. Just think about that, tons of money and development time go into creating quests that players will chew through in 1 week...
The static quest system is possibly the worst "innovation' so far in the genre. Heroic, immersive, story-driven, that's all bull shit. It's linear, scripted content that plays the same for every player. Why do players get bored? Because they chew through this content, then sit around and wait for the next batch of content, which will last a whole week or two. You can't get attached to a game world like this, since you're not really a part of the world in any way...your just passing through, taking your turn on the rides.
"Why run through the content so fast? Just slow down and enjoy the journey." Good question and good point. Except that there's no "journey" in this type of game. You know where you're going at every moment (A to B to C), there's no mystery, and there's no real danger or consequences.
You could say that the static quests aren't the real problem. The real problem is that the entire game is bent around the static quests. Nothing exists in the game world unless there is some quest tied into it and most of the development focus is towards quests. Just think about that, tons of money and development time go into creating quests that players will chew through in 1 week...
There is absolutely NO body of evidence to support your opinion. The most successful MMO's with the exception of Eve are quest driven, and few non-quest driven MMO's made before or after the big WoW have shared their success. In short, people want a fairly clear means to achieve their goals, and right now, quests are one of the better ideas used.
Not that they're the final word, of course. I'd like to see something better. But for now, they are what brings folks to the MMO genre.
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
Actually there is one thing more static and meaningless and that is the XP grind. Quests replace/disguise this with a more defined, and less grindy system which is why players love them so much.
The key to evolving the system for the better is to replace the quest system with a system that privides more immersion while not devolving back into the XP grind.
Personally, I think that an achievement-based progression system would be a better replacement. If you have the title of Balrog Slayer then the dwarves will respect you and not bother you with the petty stuff anymore. Combine that with Friend of the Elves and Rider of Rohan and suddenly you are Somebody in that world.
The real life argument is always flawed and really adds nothing to the discussion. Regardless, I'll bite.
I'll make an analogy. Bill Gates goes to a meeting. The board of directors asks him to do some janitorial work around Microsoft headquarters. Absolutely absurd right?
Similarly, why would a supposedly great and renowned hero be refused entry to any army, or be asked to fetch an old ladies handbag that she dropped on the path through Mirkwood?
Because there are thousands of heroes around, so it's not so absurd as it seems.
The real life argument is always flawed and really adds nothing to the discussion. Regardless, I'll bite.
I'll make an analogy. Bill Gates goes to a meeting. The board of directors asks him to do some janitorial work around Microsoft headquarters. Absolutely absurd right?
Similarly, why would a supposedly great and renowned hero be refused entry to any army, or be asked to fetch an old ladies handbag that she dropped on the path through Mirkwood?
Because there are thousands of heroes around, so it's not so absurd as it seems.
If you think about it, if Microsoft cloned Bill Gates and made a thousand copies of him, it would make sense that some of them would be given menial jobs since they would not be needed for more important tasks.
I agree with this.
I realize some players say that quests add tedium to these games but why are they more tedious than camping an area for 2 hours? To that end I've met quite a few players who don't like quests, they grind, but in no way are they "making their own stories" as some have suggested.
They are essentially camping an area with a group and shooting the shit on TS. I suppose what happens during that group can be a story but it doesn't really make me want to join that story.
Also, it seems that to some extent I play these more themepark games like the older games. I do more killing of mobs than quests and usually do the quests I want to do or that are relatively easy to do without running around the world to do it.
But it also seems that players feel that they have to go to quest giver, get quest, go to the part marked on the map, run back to quest giver and repeat ad infinitum.
I mean, who wants to do that every day? Andy why as one doesn't have to do this.
When I was in Moria, I would take a few quests and set out to explore. More often than not I would run intto my quest objective and finish the quest.
But in no way did I run to do x amount of quests, run back to turn them in and get more only to do it again.
why? Because that's not fun. One can play these games in different ways if one wants to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WoW brought people to the genre, not questing.
Marketing, polish, and accessibility are why that game is ridiculously huge. Replace questing with some other form of grinding and nothing would change there. Everquest was the anomaly back in the day and the lack of a quest system didn't slow that one down much.
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
Quests nowadays are the loophole designed to grant XP, money, and items as an alternative to grinding mobs. Without getting into semantics of what "quest" should mean, generally that's what a "quest" is representative for in MMO's at this time. The biggest problem is that for the most part, as far as immersion is concerned, when quests have no relevance to the storyline whatsoever. This comic sums up my feelings rather well in the reason I only played WotLK for a month.
www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/11/14/
For me, WoW was fun. But the biggest setback for me were all the "pointless" crap they threw in as time sinks. Say for instance...
Bob informs me, like the 50,000 people before him, that he has a bear problem and he wants me to bring back 10 bear paws as proof of helping him, in return he'll make me stronger somehow, and give me a choice of a really nice sword, bow, or staff. My impressions of this are:
A. Why should I kill the bears when I could kill Bob and take what he has in the first place. If he can't kill a few bears how the hell is he going to kill me...
B. If 50k people have destroyed at least 4 bears each bringing the kill ratio to say 200k, then Bob needs a U-haul to get the fuck out of Dodge, because 4 more won't help.
Then, should I decide to help him... I wander out to find those bears just walking around minding their own business. So after mowing down a bear, I walk up to one only to find out that this bear has no (lootable) paws. What. The. Fuck. If this bear has no feet, then how in the hell is it walking around, let alone causing BOB any problems?!? Three more footless bears later, I kill one that does have ONE paw. Half an hour later, after killing 50 bears for 10 paws, I return to Bob. Bob gives me XP, some cash, and an mild upgrade for a piece of gear.
A few quests (objectives) like this I wouldn't mind... but when it's ever damned quest I can honestly say, "Yes I feel more like a messenger boy instead of a part of something epic." There wasn't much of a difference what I did in the themepark ride that I couldn't do in a sandbox. All that was different was Bob gave a weak reason to actually go kill these things that normally I'd pass up anyways, and the drop rates for stuff were altered to mask the grind. Reward was the carrot on the stick to make me jump through the timesink hoop. I'm not saying it's a horrible bad thing... but after so long with little change... man, it gets old. Reinvent the wheel, give us another word to use instead of "sandbox", or "theme park" that defines what MMO we play. The only difference really is the smoke and mirrors.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Actually, it hasn't. Quests are about the most static and meaningless content one could put into an MMO, but most players love them so that is why so many mainstream MMOs have them especially when the reward is a shiny new gear upgrade.
Quests nowadays are the loophole designed to grant XP, money, and items as an alternative to grinding mobs. Without getting into semantics of what "quest" should mean, generally that's what a "quest" is representative for in MMO's at this time. The biggest problem is that for the most part, as far as immersion is concerned, when quests have no relevance to the storyline whatsoever. This comic sums up my feelings rather well in the reason I only played WotLK for a month.
www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/11/14/
For me, WoW was fun. But the biggest setback for me were all the "pointless" crap they threw in as time sinks. Say for instance...
Bob informs me, like the 50,000 people before him, that he has a bear problem and he wants me to bring back 10 bear paws as proof of helping him, in return he'll make me stronger somehow, and give me a choice of a really nice sword, bow, or staff. My impressions of this are:
A. Why should I kill the bears when I could kill Bob and take what he has in the first place. If he can't kill a few bears how the hell is he going to kill me...
B. If 50k people have destroyed at least 4 bears each bringing the kill ratio to say 200k, then Bob needs a U-haul to get the fuck out of Dodge, because 4 more won't help.
Then, should I decide to help him... I wander out to find those bears just walking around minding their own business. So after mowing down a bear, I walk up to one only to find out that this bear has no (lootable) paws. What. The. Fuck. If this bear has no feet, then how in the hell is it walking around, let alone causing BOB any problems?!? Three more footless bears later, I kill one that does have ONE paw. Half an hour later, after killing 50 bears for 10 paws, I return to Bob. Bob gives me XP, some cash, and an mild upgrade for a piece of gear.
A few quests (objectives) like this I wouldn't mind... but when it's ever damned quest I can honestly say, "Yes I feel more like a messenger boy instead of a part of something epic." There wasn't much of a difference what I did in the themepark ride that I couldn't do in a sandbox. All that was different was Bob gave a weak reason to actually go kill these things that normally I'd pass up anyways, and the drop rates for stuff were altered to mask the grind. Reward was the carrot on the stick to make me jump through the timesink hoop. I'm not saying it's a horrible bad thing... but after so long with little change... man, it gets old. Reinvent the wheel, give us another word to use instead of "sandbox", or "theme park" that defines what MMO we play. The only difference really is the smoke and mirrors.
Well, prolly you are so aggressive you ruined the bear paws and bob only takes undamaged and really good paws? But of course I agree with you. I mean we are all so used to those habits we somehow stopped questioning then. We suppose they have been here forever and are going to stay forever. It is this rigid thinking we need to break up if we want to see really new and better MMOs.
For what have the recent 2 years of new MMOs been other than the repetition of the same WOW/EQ formula? It has been done too often. You grind quests, you do hilarious stuff to get XP, and sorry thats the worst reason to do something IMO. When I want to do a quest for XP and reward, thats fine, but when I begin to think, ok I do this to get XP and reward, then something is flawed. Fundamentally.
Let me make another daring example: the existence and wide spread use of gold buying is for me an alarming sign that something fundamental in MMO design is flawed. If the gaming process was fun enough, people would not buy gold. They would enjoy playing the game and everything would come in a natural balance. The widespread existenc of gold selling tells me, that something is very very wrong in MMOs. Just as one example, and I think that HAS a lot to do with the fact the quest-xp-reward model we use is not the very best. I mean look at the first 20 levels in Age of Conan, in Tortage. They were great. You were involved in a personal story, and honestly I never cared rats ass about XP or reward, I wanted to experience the story. Or take any good single player RPG. What is it that keeps you playing Mass Effect or Dragon Age or Oblivion or Fable or whatever? Is it XP? Is it this uber sword reward? Prolly not, I mean the main reason is you have some really cool story and something going on you want to follow.
The existing MMORPGs are more like "lets make a list of 20000 quests and drop them all over". End of story. Thats whats wrong. Most are totally unrelated. With some exceptions, and some are really good and show what is possible. For instance if you are playing Myrkwood expansion for LOTRO, try to solve that crime that happened in Augh...whatever that burned down village is called. Heck, it was like playing CSI in Middle Earth. I mean it wasnt earth shattering, but it was telling a story about the place, something related to the ongoings there and not some "bring me 20 swine snouts for moms favourite swine snout pie" rubbish.
The chances are there and not so difficult, but most MMO makers are just having no hand for that. Just to say it clear: writing is an art. Its not something you or me can just do because we know the alphabet. Just as less and you and I can just compose a symphony merely because we can sing, so is writing an art you have to get professionals for it. Bioware does, and god knows it shows! But in MMOs we still get stories made by programmers who think something they find cool. And thats just not good enough these days. Investing into good, REAL writers is something the MMO gaming industry still has to learn.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Couldn't agree more.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."