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Whats with the dumbing down of Raid Content?

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  • KordeshKordesh Member Posts: 1,715

     40+ man gear grinding raids are a broken and archaic concept in the first place. The sooner they disappear the better. They had their time and place, but really serve no purpose in todays MMOs except to stroke off the guilds who built themselves up around being the only beneficiaries of the content as it has always remained mostly inaccessible to the majority player base. I'm all for more complexity in games, but there was nothing complex about forcing 40+ people online at the same time, and then listening to someone whine over a mic on how to pull the same spawns over and over, it wasn't epic, just obnoxious. Keep raids, keep them difficult, but I never want to see a raid over 16-24 people again. Raids have also become FAR too much of a focus in some games, to the point of being the ONLY focus in some, which just highlights a complete lack of depth in the game and dumbing down of the genre, as raids with a scant few exceptions exist purely as a method to shovel more gear at people, and "kill x, get gear" being the only thing to do in an MMO makes for a terrible MMO. 

    Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.

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  • TheHatterTheHatter Member Posts: 2,547
    Originally posted by chrisel


    The real challenge has been, is and will always be PvP. Raiding is all about gear. When "best" gear is achieved, any instanced is facerolled anyway. Raiding is hardly worthy the label "challenge". Most of them who raids, are people who suck so much in PvP (mouseclickers) that they have no other choices than raid, cause they have no clue how to pvp.
    But hey, if raiders belive that it is a "challenge" what they do, same for me. I could care less for them living in denial.

     

    Go raid then, you've obviously never done it.

     

    PVP = "ZERG WIN YAY"

    PVP = "We're a premade, they're not! WE WIN"

    PVP = "What's the most OP class atm? Lets roll one of those!"

     

    Raids and Dungeons are done VERY well in WoW. The Mini-Game they have labeled "PVP" is not.

  • KordeshKordesh Member Posts: 1,715
    Originally posted by TheHatter

    Originally posted by chrisel


    The real challenge has been, is and will always be PvP. Raiding is all about gear. When "best" gear is achieved, any instanced is facerolled anyway. Raiding is hardly worthy the label "challenge". Most of them who raids, are people who suck so much in PvP (mouseclickers) that they have no other choices than raid, cause they have no clue how to pvp.
    But hey, if raiders belive that it is a "challenge" what they do, same for me. I could care less for them living in denial.

     

    Go raid then, you've obviously never done it.

     

    PVP = "ZERG WIN YAY"

    PVP = "We're a premade, they're not! WE WIN"

    PVP = "What's the most OP class atm? Lets roll one of those!"

     

    Raids and Dungeons are done VERY well in WoW. The Mini-Game they have labeled "PVP" is not.

    FYI, nothing in WoW is done terribly well. I've seen EQ raids with more difficulty if thats what you're looking for, and raids elsewhere with more complexity and story.

    Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.

    EAT ME MMORPG.com!

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Torik

    Actually it is all in your head.  WoW's raiding is still pretty much divided the same way.  90+% of raiders are stuck doing normal modes and the advanced progression guilds are doing the hardmode content.
    What you are QQing about is merely the 'appearance of difficulty'.  You see that people are killing bosses with the same name on normal and harcmode difficulty and assume that they are the same difficulty.  In fact the level of difficulty is seriously increased between the modes.  In fact the transition between normal and hardmode raiding is much harder than that between vanilla WoW MC and Naxx raiding. 
    I am also tired of you epeen-wankers complaining how every casual can get the best gear without even trying.  That is a complete falsehood.  The gear a hardmode progression raider can obtain can never be obtained by a casual normal mode raider. 

    Absolutely bang on.

    I've been raiding in WoW since 2005. I raided Molten Core, Blackwing Lair and Naxxramas at level 60. I raided SSC, Tempest Keep and Black Temple at level 70, and I'm now raiding casually at level 80.

    The top-tier raids are more challenging now than they have ever been in the past.

    The only change has been a reduction in raid sizes and single-sitting time investment. The toughest content has become more accessible to casual players, but has absolutely not become easier.

    I agree 100% with Torik's assessment. It's pure epeen.

    The challenges are there if you want 'em.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • BrianshoBriansho Member UncommonPosts: 3,586
    Originally posted by TheHatter

    Originally posted by chrisel


    The real challenge has been, is and will always be PvP. Raiding is all about gear. When "best" gear is achieved, any instanced is facerolled anyway. Raiding is hardly worthy the label "challenge". Most of them who raids, are people who suck so much in PvP (mouseclickers) that they have no other choices than raid, cause they have no clue how to pvp.
    But hey, if raiders belive that it is a "challenge" what they do, same for me. I could care less for them living in denial.

     

    Go raid then, you've obviously never done it.

     

    PVP = "ZERG WIN YAY"

    PVP = "We're a premade, they're not! WE WIN"

    PVP = "What's the most OP class atm? Lets roll one of those!"

     

    Raids and Dungeons are done VERY well in WoW. The Mini-Game they have labeled "PVP" is not.

     

    Does this mean PVP makes people emo?

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • chriselchrisel Member UncommonPosts: 990
    Originally posted by TheHatter

    Originally posted by chrisel


    The real challenge has been, is and will always be PvP. Raiding is all about gear. When "best" gear is achieved, any instanced is facerolled anyway. Raiding is hardly worthy the label "challenge". Most of them who raids, are people who suck so much in PvP (mouseclickers) that they have no other choices than raid, cause they have no clue how to pvp.
    But hey, if raiders belive that it is a "challenge" what they do, same for me. I could care less for them living in denial.

     

    Go raid then, you've obviously never done it.

     

    PVP = "ZERG WIN YAY"

    PVP = "We're a premade, they're not! WE WIN"

    PVP = "What's the most OP class atm? Lets roll one of those!"

     

    Raids and Dungeons are done VERY well in WoW. The Mini-Game they have labeled "PVP" is not.

    Jeez man, cut the drama. Please.

    I guess you are a mouseclicker then, since you obviously have no clue about how PvP works. What have your whining about FOTM (OP class) to do with this anyway?

    FYI; I do solo when I level, I do solo content end level. When I enter a BG with premades, i just switch BG. Plain & simple. I have no problems coming up around top 5 when I enter a BG, in crap gear. "Alone", even as Alliance.

    Every retard can do raiding, you need skills to do solo PvP. If you think raiding needs skills, well, that says alot about your skills. not mine.

    Now: L2P, do some real PvP. You obviously have'nt experienced anything but premades.

    Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!

  • MardyMardy Member Posts: 2,213

    This dumbing down you're talking about has to do with less and less people desiring to join a large raid guild, that's why most MMO's have shrunk the raid size.  Also less and less people have the time necessary to raid the old fashioned way.  This is not to mention less and less people want to even raid at all these days.  It's a trend you can't stop, it started a few years ago.

     

    So developers are wising up to the fact that they spend all this time developing raid content, they don't want their time wasted so only a couple guilds on each server can have access to.  If they spend a lot of time creating content that only .5% of the overall population can have access to, it's wasted time to them.

    EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO

  • aleosaleos Member UncommonPosts: 1,943

     hey allright good for you! you've realized why just about everyone hates wow. YEAH! 

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    Originally posted by 133794m3r


    Do you think wow would be where it is now if they hadn't dumbed down the entire game?



     

    I think wow was doing just fine when it had complex raiding.  Personally, I left when we came to a gate mob that had no skill attached to it but instead was a complete damage race.  When the guild leader said he wanted everyone to show up with 2 of those expensive potions for every naxx raid that was it for me.  It was no longer about figuring out the fight, it was about farming enough mats and/or gold to buy the potions.

  • justusfrogsjustusfrogs Member Posts: 5

    Its kind of a balancing thing.

    Call it what you like about long, complex end game raids that is the secret to doing them - skill, free time, ablity to work together / ability to follow orders, etc.

    In the end - they ain't for everybody.  That's all well and good.  Not everyone will have the time, desire, motiviation, to log on at a set time for several hours, grind through a raid, farm needed stuff for mats for the raid, etc, etc... repeat.

    Its kind of a balance.  The people that can do it aren't a huge market - but they are a very vocal and loyal (if you please them) market - much like hard-core pvp'ers.

    The problem is - you have to keep creating stuff that only a small % of your players will ever see.  So they make the content available to more folks.  But that ticks off the hard-cores - and a company may or may not care depending on how much $ they make or lose on it.

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • TheHatterTheHatter Member Posts: 2,547
    Originally posted by chrisel



    Jeez man, cut the drama. Please.

    I guess you are a mouseclicker then, since you obviously have no clue about how PvP works. What have your whining about FOTM (OP class) to do with this anyway?

    FYI; I do solo when I level, I do solo content end level. When I enter a BG with premades, i just switch BG. Plain & simple. I have no problems coming up around top 5 when I enter a BG, in crap gear. "Alone", even as Alliance.

    Every retard can do raiding, you need skills to do solo PvP. If you think raiding needs skills, well, that says alot about your skills. not mine.

    Now: L2P, do some real PvP. You obviously have'nt experienced anything but premades.

     

    I would do some real PVP if it existed in WoW, but it doesn't. . Sorry. I'm playing DFO now, so it's all good. : ) Premade or not though, if you don't Zerg, you lose. It's pretty much that simple

    I am far from a clicker. The reason is every retard can raid, is the same reason OP made this topic. Whenever a new dungeon is released, it's moderately hard and people have to develop strategies to beat the bosses. Sometimes, they just reuse old boss scripts and it's easier to figure out the strategies, but not always do they reuse old bosses with shiny new skins on them.

    WoW has actually got the nerfing down to almost a formula. A new raid comes out, it can't be mindlessly done even after people figure out the best strategies, people whine and beg on the forums that they suck and can't complete them, then 2 weeks later a new patch comes out that nerfs the bosses. Every-single-time. The only real difference is sometimes it's 1 week, sometimes it's 2, but it's always one or the other.

    And as gear based as WoW is, I find it very hard to believe you're even in the top 15 with "crap gear". lmfao. I'm not saying there is no skill involved, but the skill doesn't really come till you're somewhat closely geared to your opponent.

  • chriselchrisel Member UncommonPosts: 990

    Fair enough.

    My personal opinion is that WoW lost much of its charm when world PvP was gone with the introduction of battle grounds. I like battle grounds too, but its different. I think I would choose the way WoW is today, rather than back how it was before the BG's. It was way too chaotic, way to much griefing. Today pvp can be done fast & furious in battle grounds, on equal terms. Still with knowing that you can be ganked when you are out in the open field when leveling or grinding. There is some world pvp, but not even close to as much it used to be. Years since there was 6 hrs Tarren Mill battles. I would like more world pvp, but unfortunately I have no real good suggestion how that can be achieved without lots of griefing/ganking of lowbies.

    I find it quite easy to compete in battle grounds, even though I am alone. It is not true that you need to be "grouped" to do well. And what so if you meet grouped people? The bigger satisfaction there is when you top the BG statistics time after time. This is even better when they need be 2 or more to kill you all the time... I care less what other feel, I care about my gaming. If we meet lots of grouped people, I am also experienced enough to see who has skills and who has not. If our side looses, against heavy grouped side, and I am on top on my side, its perfectly okay. Everyone should know why the situation is like that. The statistics do not lie :)

    Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516
    Originally posted by aleos


     hey allright good for you! you've realized why just about everyone hates wow. YEAH! 

     

    The reason I hate WoW is the same reason I hate:

    Microsoft

    Wal Mart

    Google

    McDonalds

    The United States

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Member Posts: 2,221
    Originally posted by uquipu

    Originally posted by aleos


     hey allright good for you! you've realized why just about everyone hates wow. YEAH! 

     

    The reason I hate WoW is the same reason I hate:

    Microsoft

    Wal Mart

    Google

    McDonalds

    The United States

    Dont see any way out for you. Have you considered suicide?

  • DewmDewm Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by uquipu

    Originally posted by aleos


     hey allright good for you! you've realized why just about everyone hates wow. YEAH! 

     

    The reason I hate WoW is the same reason I hate:

    Microsoft

    Wal Mart

    Google

    McDonalds

    The United States

    Dont see any way out for you. Have you considered suicide?



     

    So you use a Mac, intresting....well Macs suck, and you don't shop at Walmart because..? oh they probably buy chinese crap and put Americans out of work, but wait...you hate the United States... which means if you hate the united states you must love like..Red China, but wait....then again. you can't do that because you hate walmart.....and I agree about McDonals, bleh can eat at subway get like 3 times the food for the same price.

     

    But why on earth do you hate google?

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
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  • Zayne3145Zayne3145 Member Posts: 1,448
    Originally posted by uquipu

    Originally posted by aleos


     hey allright good for you! you've realized why just about everyone hates wow. YEAH! 

     

    The reason I hate WoW is the same reason I hate:

    Microsoft

    Wal Mart

    Google

    McDonalds

    The United States

    Yes, because they're all subscription-based virtual worlds, too....

    image

  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose Member Posts: 1,558
    Originally posted by Illius

    Originally posted by Scot


    Just part of the overall easy mode that gaming is being switched too. The idea is that they will get more players if no one feels there is anything they cannot do. More players equals more money.



    The only solution to this is to kick up a fuss in your games forums. If you feel that the game has become playable by your blind, one armed granny then leaving is an option. If gaming companies think they are losing customers because their game is a cake walk, then they will rethink the easy mode strategy.

    Nowadays it's about the bottom line.  I doubt anybody will intentionally alienate the massive cash cow that is the current gamer generation by making things more challenging.

    It's going to take a generation or 2 for this to start to change.  Sadly by then a lot of us will have moved on, or settled down with priorities that go beyond killing some time in a game.  Read "wife" and "kids".  I kinda find it interesting in a way to watch the downward spiral.  I want to see just how far it will go.



     

    You win the thread!

  • TotemthumperTotemthumper Member UncommonPosts: 23

    IMO this comes from a generation of " everyone gets a trophy for just playing " noone can be losers anymore and this Ideal has finally cought up to other areas of life

  • DewmDewm Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
    Originally posted by Totemthumper


    IMO this comes from a generation of " everyone gets a trophy for just playing " noone can be losers anymore and this Ideal has finally cought up to other areas of life



     

    ahhh, so i'm not the only one who thought that was screwed up..

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
    https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos

  • karat76karat76 Member UncommonPosts: 1,000
    Originally posted by Briansho


    Whats with the dumbing down of Raid Content?
    Best excuse I've seen so far are the I have kids, a job, hobbies, travel, pets, responsibilities, and no time to play games anymore. Seems like devs are catering more and more to this type of player. People want all the best pixels with the least amount of effort and time as possible.

    So having real life responsibilities is a bad thing?  Nothing wrong with dumping 40 man raids. Raids in general at least to me were only there to do when I couldn't get a date. Now after 10 years of marriage and two kids I don't need video games to be a second job.

  • AmstrupAmstrup Member Posts: 63

    link me yogg zero keepers achiv, link alagon ahiv, link anub 25 hc ahicv, and soon lich king hc achiv..if you cant, then shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    wow is not easier, please dont let nostalagi fool you.

  • crunchyblackcrunchyblack Member Posts: 1,362

    They dumbed down raids because people got sick of waiting forever to find a decent raid group, only to fail multiple times and disband.

    Also, the dumbing down of raid content is due to everyone caring about endgame pvp.  They just want quick easy raids so they can get the gear and go pvp

    ...for better or worse.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Torik

    Actually it is all in your head.  WoW's raiding is still pretty much divided the same way.  90+% of raiders are stuck doing normal modes and the advanced progression guilds are doing the hardmode content.
    What you are QQing about is merely the 'appearance of difficulty'.  You see that people are killing bosses with the same name on normal and harcmode difficulty and assume that they are the same difficulty.  In fact the level of difficulty is seriously increased between the modes.  In fact the transition between normal and hardmode raiding is much harder than that between vanilla WoW MC and Naxx raiding. 
    I am also tired of you epeen-wankers complaining how every casual can get the best gear without even trying.  That is a complete falsehood.  The gear a hardmode progression raider can obtain can never be obtained by a casual normal mode raider. 

    Absolutely bang on.

    I've been raiding in WoW since 2005. I raided Molten Core, Blackwing Lair and Naxxramas at level 60. I raided SSC, Tempest Keep and Black Temple at level 70, and I'm now raiding casually at level 80.

    The top-tier raids are more challenging now than they have ever been in the past.

    The only change has been a reduction in raid sizes and single-sitting time investment. The toughest content has become more accessible to casual players, but has absolutely not become easier.

    I agree 100% with Torik's assessment. It's pure epeen.

    The challenges are there if you want 'em.

     

    This is stupid.  The hardmode gear, which is harder to get, obviously, is pretty much the same item as the normal mode gear.  The only difference is like a 5% difference in stats.  It's so negligible that it doesn't make any difference.  

    Casuals with no skill or effort can have similar characters to people who put in a lot of effort toward raiding & downing hard mode content.  So, even thought you try and they don't, don't expect a character that is unique or different from any other WOW character.

    At least in Everquest, not everyone had a Sceptre of Destruction, or a Fungi Tunic, or NTOV Weapons.  Because scrub guilds would never be able to raid that kind of thing.  In WoW, they give scrubs the near-best gear in the game.  It's unfair to people who actually put effort into the game.

     

    WoW is easy mode, that is all.  Any guild that cared about progression is gone from WoW because of what they did.  They give everyone the same gear.  The best gear is so negligibly different in stats that no one even cares about it anymore.  

    Same graphic, and a 5% diff. in stats.  Yeah, real original there.  

  • AmstrupAmstrup Member Posts: 63
    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Torik

    Actually it is all in your head.  WoW's raiding is still pretty much divided the same way.  90+% of raiders are stuck doing normal modes and the advanced progression guilds are doing the hardmode content.
    What you are QQing about is merely the 'appearance of difficulty'.  You see that people are killing bosses with the same name on normal and harcmode difficulty and assume that they are the same difficulty.  In fact the level of difficulty is seriously increased between the modes.  In fact the transition between normal and hardmode raiding is much harder than that between vanilla WoW MC and Naxx raiding. 
    I am also tired of you epeen-wankers complaining how every casual can get the best gear without even trying.  That is a complete falsehood.  The gear a hardmode progression raider can obtain can never be obtained by a casual normal mode raider. 

    Absolutely bang on.

    I've been raiding in WoW since 2005. I raided Molten Core, Blackwing Lair and Naxxramas at level 60. I raided SSC, Tempest Keep and Black Temple at level 70, and I'm now raiding casually at level 80.

    The top-tier raids are more challenging now than they have ever been in the past.

    The only change has been a reduction in raid sizes and single-sitting time investment. The toughest content has become more accessible to casual players, but has absolutely not become easier.

    I agree 100% with Torik's assessment. It's pure epeen.

    The challenges are there if you want 'em.

     

    This is stupid.  The hardmode gear, which is harder to get, obviously, is pretty much the same item as the normal mode gear.  The only difference is like a 5% difference in stats.  It's so negligible that it doesn't make any difference.  

    Casuals with no skill or effort can have similar characters to people who put in a lot of effort toward raiding & downing hard mode content.  So, even thought you try and they don't, don't expect a character that is unique or different from any other WOW character.

    At least in Everquest, not everyone had a Sceptre of Destruction, or a Fungi Tunic, or NTOV Weapons.  Because scrub guilds would never be able to raid that kind of thing.  In WoW, they give scrubs the near-best gear in the game.  It's unfair to people who actually put effort into the game.

     

    WoW is easy mode, that is all.  Any guild that cared about progression is gone from WoW because of what they did.  They give everyone the same gear.  The best gear is so negligibly different in stats that no one even cares about it anymore.  

    Same graphic, and a 5% diff. in stats.  Yeah, real original there.  



     

    Wow is not eass mode you mega douchbag.

    You're a hater, with no clue about the game.

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Member Posts: 2,221
    Originally posted by Amstrup

    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Torik

    Actually it is all in your head.  WoW's raiding is still pretty much divided the same way.  90+% of raiders are stuck doing normal modes and the advanced progression guilds are doing the hardmode content.
    What you are QQing about is merely the 'appearance of difficulty'.  You see that people are killing bosses with the same name on normal and harcmode difficulty and assume that they are the same difficulty.  In fact the level of difficulty is seriously increased between the modes.  In fact the transition between normal and hardmode raiding is much harder than that between vanilla WoW MC and Naxx raiding. 
    I am also tired of you epeen-wankers complaining how every casual can get the best gear without even trying.  That is a complete falsehood.  The gear a hardmode progression raider can obtain can never be obtained by a casual normal mode raider. 

    Absolutely bang on.

    I've been raiding in WoW since 2005. I raided Molten Core, Blackwing Lair and Naxxramas at level 60. I raided SSC, Tempest Keep and Black Temple at level 70, and I'm now raiding casually at level 80.

    The top-tier raids are more challenging now than they have ever been in the past.

    The only change has been a reduction in raid sizes and single-sitting time investment. The toughest content has become more accessible to casual players, but has absolutely not become easier.

    I agree 100% with Torik's assessment. It's pure epeen.

    The challenges are there if you want 'em.

     

    This is stupid.  The hardmode gear, which is harder to get, obviously, is pretty much the same item as the normal mode gear.  The only difference is like a 5% difference in stats.  It's so negligible that it doesn't make any difference.  

    Casuals with no skill or effort can have similar characters to people who put in a lot of effort toward raiding & downing hard mode content.  So, even thought you try and they don't, don't expect a character that is unique or different from any other WOW character.

    At least in Everquest, not everyone had a Sceptre of Destruction, or a Fungi Tunic, or NTOV Weapons.  Because scrub guilds would never be able to raid that kind of thing.  In WoW, they give scrubs the near-best gear in the game.  It's unfair to people who actually put effort into the game.

     

    WoW is easy mode, that is all.  Any guild that cared about progression is gone from WoW because of what they did.  They give everyone the same gear.  The best gear is so negligibly different in stats that no one even cares about it anymore.  

    Same graphic, and a 5% diff. in stats.  Yeah, real original there.  



     

    Wow is not eass mode you mega douchbag.

    You're a hater, with no clue about the game.

    Now how can anyone debate against intellect like this?  Yep youve made a good case. WOW is uber tough, cut your epeen off hardcore.

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