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RPG into MMOs in EVE?
Oudoksuja
Member Posts: 106
Been thinking about the EVE design and structure quite a bit every now and then, and wanted to ask if anyone else has come to the same conclusions. This post isn't exactly coherent, I know.. Consider it as a musing 
It's not meant to be an EVE add, either, just some thought that sprung into mind playing EVE.
Roleplaying in MMOs is a non-existent phenomenon. In AO you put some social clothing on and two guys playing with chick avatars talk crap and pretend to be either lesbians, or sisters. Roleplaying in AO is about who's SO some other avatar is. People make up some vague histories and have to fill out 95% of the character background, as the game itself doesn't really offer anything to hold onto. When two "roleplaying characters" meet, they have to first set up the frame of reference as the game doesn't give you any common ground, really.
Roleplaying is a different mode from the rest of the playing experience. In EQ you kill some monsters for xp or camp some big monsters. Then you decide that it's time to "roleplay", you switch you gear and head to some more social area and talk semi-rpg stuff until you decide you want a more xp. One big obstacle is the all too common level system, which defines the extent of fun you can have in the game. To have fun in the game, you have to level. When that doesn't go with immersion, you're playing just a hack'n slash game with less lepth than in Diablo (no offense to those who like hack'n slash, I'm a fan too but it's not related to RPGs unless you want to call it retro).
All in all, the is no immersion. Everything is shallow. Building anything on top of roleplaying in those games is not supported. Killing 1000 copies of the same monster in a row for xp or some rare drop and roleplaying do not in any way meet. Two distinct, different modes of playing. For a character that is realistic in the frame of reference in a game like AO, there is *no* in-game reason to go killing some boss monsters, hoping a huge fricking snake would drop the hightech nanocrystal you've been looking for.
Now, in EVE.. It's more to the liking of the real world. Most of the stuff happens around money. Money buys you ships, guns, ammo, skills to learn, technology.. If you're rich, you get what you want. To get rich, there are numerous opportunities. Mining, doing missions for agents, hauling cargo, research, manufacturing, trade, recycling.. Basically nothing you do in the game, from shooting pirates to mining, does not conflict with the possibility of roleplaying. Anything your character does, can be considered work. People work for money. Money buys stuff and makes life sweet.
From a real world point of view, even a scenario where a corporation hires players to do the work (from manufacturing to ore mining, hauling, refining..) and pays them for the work is possible (as opposed to the standard, loose org/clan/corp structure). A character can have a place in the game, that defines the character. Just as education, social standing and work defines us in the real world.
I've found out - to my surprise - that it's more fun to do something boring in the game because my superior ordered me to than it is to do something boring because it earns me cash in the game. Consider the feeling when you're flying in the space, patrolling some fricking stupid, infrequently used solar system just because your boss had gotten orders to keep that area clear off "unwanted people" as a favor to someone else, so that their operations could run smoothly. And you don't even know these people, nor have you any idea whatsoever what's in it for your boss. You just do it, because you were told to do it, and it's your job. Sweet!
Sidenote #1: I haven't *ever* played a single MMORPG, where I would've felt any slightest bit of immersion. This was the first time. Why? Because the situation was believable. It was realistic in the framework of the game. Roleplaying isn't talking crap with other players talking crap. It's playing the role of your character, and immersion.
Sidenote #2: I don't enjoy doing tedious and boring stuff any more than anyone else. Just to underline to avoid misunderstandings I've already been asked about with regards to this post, the fun part in the example was in the social connections, hierarchy and the fact that many things were tied together (organisational hierarchy, area control, intra-alliance agreements, corp practices,..), resulting in some factually tedious activity (patrolling an area). Doing the boring stuff, and cursing my boss (like I do every day at work irl) was switched into something that was actually fun, because it had more meaning in the game than just shooting npc pirates (which is an activity that is not tied to anything that is going on in the game).
Back to the issue of immersion and how EVE design supports it. Assume you want to roleplay a character as you fly through the wastness of space. Look around. Do you anything that wouldn't fit? Do you see anything you'd have to edit out, or does the world look believable in the eyes of your character? Yes, in EVE it does. Players are mining, player pirates are lurking in some highly insecure bottleneck systems, ready to kill you for your loot, or blackmail cash to let you go alive, people are hauling stuff from place to another, hunting pirates.. The players behind those characters quite likely aren't roleplaying a charactrer, but you wont see that. You see other people in the space, leading their daily life there, as pilots, researches, manufacturers, traders and miners. Even if they don't roleplay as such, they contribute to your roleplaying experience with their existance alone. Even if you are in a roleplaying mode yourself and they are not, you still have a common tongue - that of commodities, services, money and information.
For a corporation to work in EVE, organisational hierarchy will eventually evolve - especially when the corp grows - or emerge. With an increasing focus into corporations in the Shiva/Exodus expansion, it's even more important that the corporation runs smoothly, and also makes profit. From a character point of view, that means a corp member is all the more important for the corporation.
Why is this significant? In AO, EQ, L2, and the likes, a player isn't really important to the org/clan/corp. It's a meeting place with a purpose of giving the people a common chat or chatroom, org house or whathaveyou - not a functional entity in itself. EVE gives the player organisations a purpose. the more characters you have working for the same goal, the more you achieve. You can't claim a region of space for your own without the guns to back it up. Even with guns, you can't hold onto what you own without politics. Yes, politics. Keeping good relationships going with your neighbours. That isn't as easy as it sounds, believe me. There is an infinite supply of greedy people and corporations out there, all erager to grab what you've claimed. They'll use guns, hired player mercenary corps, sabotage and politics (the nastiest bit), to drive you out, or make everyone else hate you.
I've seen my share of the alliance and corporation politicking in EVE and while it's mostly a mess when too young or immature players try their hands at politics and PR, it's still beautiful to see how the players create content for themselves and to the other players.
Rant goes on, as I notice this is an important aspect in any game, especially in a roleplaying game.
In tabletop roleplaying games all the players basically create part of the story, and the game content. They may be playing a railroaded story created by the GM/ST/DM/whathaveyou, but essentially, it's the players and character who are telling the story.
In the majority of MMORPGs it's been made nigh impossible for players to create content. Yes, you may be able to build a small house for your corp/org/clan or your character, but that's not content. Content is starting a war between hundreds of players, messing up the daily lives for another few hundred who are cought in between and then trying to get the best out of it. Important differences is affecting the lives of others in the game.
In AO, if an org hates another org, they'll beat down each other's tower fields. Nobody notices. In the cities you can't attack other players. Yes, you can insult each other, but that's the extent of it. What's there to gain? What's there to fear? What's there to lose?
In EVE, if someone hates your guts, he'll hunt you down. He'll buy player mercs to shoot you down when you're lazily mining in low sec. He'll declare a war at your corporation, and continue hunting you even in the secure areas. Is that fair? Yes, it is. It's kinda like realistic (especially in the EVE world framework). It means you can't just make enemies out of everyone without there being potential consequences - and that's fun.
All in all, I'd go as far as saying that EVE is the first MMORPG that's been designed in a fashion that not only makes roleplaying and immersion possible but also supports it. This may not have been the design intent CCP devs originally had, but that's where the game has come to.
Why would this be an interesting issue for anyone who isn't interested in roleplaying, but want to just hack and bash monsters, all day long? Because the qualities that make EVE a good online *roleplaying* game also make it a good game. That the game world seems alive, that you feel you can have impact and affect the game world with your actions makes the game more fun, and it makes the game last even after you've gotten bored with the regular monsters and killing them.
Phew. I think it ended up even less coherent than I imagined, and longer than anyone would propably have time to read
Comments
I totally agree. I just hope that someone will eventually put more work into this type of framework and make it even stronger...
Has to be the most interesting post I have read for a while
Great post! Although the title of the thread is a little confusing
i agree completely - although i wish i didnt cause now i sound liked a biased fanboy.
the open ended, player economy, single shard, 5000 huge solarsystem, make your own future, real politiking, open ended, ever evolving game is what makes EvE more of a rpg than many, if not most out there; as it breaks the convention in alot of ways, it is not perceived as a rpg. Even players of the game often fail to realise that it is this part of the game, intentional or not, that makes the game more compelling.
Actually I found Eve the least RP'd persistant online game I've ever played (Eve describes itself as a MMOG not a MMORPG) - thats not to say that Eve isnt a good game (although I just quit again) just that I've never seen any evidence of RP outside of the forums
I think the problem is that you character is just a portrait and your more likely to relate to someone by their ship (and probably to yourself as well) than to their portrait, race, caste or gender - the other problem is that, ultimately, your race, caste and gender dont actually make any difference to your gameplay (once youve got your skill sets sorted out)
Now I'm not saying that RP is abundant in any other MMORPG (which is a sad thing) because it always seems to be the preserve of niche groups and think the developer shoulders alot of the blame here for either not facilitating RP enough or putting too much emphasis on levelling and PvP (AO is very guilty of the second point)
It all depends 5150...
i'll agree, eve seems to be less able to "put you there" as some other more detailed 1st person type games.
but the point is that everything you do in game is justifiable from a "in character" position.
you can RP completely, and not get left behind...
unlike some other games.
Eve is a much slower paced game most of the time - giving you time to RP
in some areas, gender/race makes no difference, but in some areas (especially minmatar and amarr territory) it makes a worls of difference.
But facilitating RP... how does adeveloper do that (besides NOT emphasise levelling)
and i would say, by the way, that PvP is an IMPORTANT part of RP...
Seems to me that's all a matter of perspective. I happen to think Eve is a very good game, and I plan to continue playing it, although it's not social enough to satisfy me as my main game, and personally I'd much rather grind in a high fantasy MMORPG than mine for hours on end. But I don't see how guild members are any more important in Eve than in other games. In EQ we sure couldn't have done many of the things we did (heck almost all the things we did at high level) without the guild members, and you really did need people from the different classes all doing their jobs.
I also loved AO, but the truth is it's too easy to solo too far in AO, so the whole social and guild fabric isn't encouraged enough.
Some people are very self-directed, and you find that in Eve also ... mission runners (me, even though I am in a mission runner corp), solo pirate types, etc. OTOH, other people prefer having some direction provided to them, which a guild/corp can provide ... but it seems to me a guild or corp can provide that in any game. Maybe you just particularly like the economic model in Eve, which is quite good. It's good you found something you like.
That is entirely dependant on the game and its setting - while its true that 'conflict' is a very good facilitator it isnt always the most conductive to RP - sure you can argue that blowing the enemy away is certainly 'in character' (in that you are on the 'other' side) I would argue quite strongly that (beyond making it easier to give your character a reason to hate the enemy i.e. they killed my parents) it doesnt do very much for a players character
The main issue I have isnt PvP in itself, its that its presence often overrides any potential RP as players single mindedly go after a kill. Interestingly some games (Neocron for example) give rise to an opportunity of political conflict (as well as unoffical alliances against shared foes) yet these factors never see the light of day because 99% of players will go on the 'red = dead' style of RP (i.e. if the game lets me kill them, then surely I'm _supposed_ to kill them)
AO had amazing RP potential, the apartments, the social clothing and items, the emotes and the cities with their clubs and bars etc. The storyline was rich enough to give rise to lots of RP potential (including political conflict) yet (IMO) it was killed in beta by players who wanted 'something to do' - its unfortunate we have a generation of MMORPG players who believe each and every game should spoon feed its players content constantly (and/or have all out PvP with huge risk Vs reward) and I guess we have EQ to thank for that.
Fortunately SWG (what I've been playing since launch) hasnt (yet) given over to this kind of problem but its obvious that the devs vision is and has been erroded by this kind of player - hopefully the 'latest and greatest' TM games will draw these players away and keep them away.
Your idea of content is a lot of people's idea of grief.
While yes this is player created content, and furthermore one of the few types that a game can actually implement, it's not very popular in the wider world.
The ideal MMORPG would be a world where players can submit zones and content and such for other player's to play, in a non-PVP arena. Something like a single contuigous Neverwinter Nights persistant world.
That of course brings its own problems. Big ones. Such as the ability for a person to code cheats into the game, or to make unbalanced encounters, or such. Every bit of content added would have to be gone over with a comb by a paid dev....Which would take just as long as that dev making the content in the first place.
Which is why it won't be done.
(As an example I coded for a PW named MYth Drannor.....A while back a GM named Shalina added some areas that had cetrain "bonuses" in them that would be impossible for anyone but the one who wrote the area to ever get....I.E. Destroy all the benches in the temple in a certain order to get a +25 vorpal sword of whatever.)
Phew! that was really nice text... you got mind.
i plaid the game like 1 month didnt RP at any at the second month i sed myself that im gone to role of a one small people in huge corp. EVE takes you away even if you arent RPer. but im RPG guy so i have nothing to say... eve is great... great as the writer of this thing.
yes note to mmorpg makers more RPG less PW!
but i have heard myself something in EQ2 you can have your own home andget better in your jobs and get better houses and till you are the king of the crowd.. but im not sure.
lets take a look example to DAoC. what pleasure you get in the game when you are lvl 50 player with epic armors killing bosses and getting relics. yes, and then? what does that help? yes, you get the darkness falls. and what does that help? yes, you can kill the legion. and then? yes you get " lots a uberxxx stufz" and that? N.O.T.H.I.N.G.!. ... you just go and kill that legion again... but werent the pleasure be much larger if you would be the king of the nation and know it when you start that you can become the guy who can do everything. and then if you do something stupid when you are the king the albion looses the war... SORRY THAT IS RP.
I for one am glad that role playing is relatively non-existent in MMORPG's.
Here are my reasons why:
1) In many situations in many different MMORPG's where RP'ers were doing their thang- they demanded that they be allowed to do their thing unhindered- however- did not want anyone else to have input. It was considered "interferance" and they'd call in GM's to make their case.
2) The RP'ers I experienced often bossed other people around, telling other people how it was going to be according to "the storyline" albeit- "their" storyline.
3) RP'ers would Role Playing warfare, with a positive outcome for themselves.. ie. "We are roleplaying good- and we will triumph because we are good". As a participant in this stuff- if you won when you wernt supposed to- that was considered breaking the rules. When this happened- I think people were forgetting that it's a game. If they want to fix fights to fit into a storyline- perhaps they should just go write a book offline.
4) RP vs PvP. Roleplayers often appear to have 0% respect for PvP'ers, yet they expect respect from PvP'ers. Where am I going with this? Well- a RP'er would love to see the game design changed so that they can be competitive, or so that their play style is supported, however are often quite happy to sacrifice PvP'ers chosen playstyle to get it. I've seen numerous replies to changes made to nerf PvP'ers play styles- to be responded to by RP'ers as essentially "sucks to be you" type posts.
An example is when trammel came in to Ultima Online, essentially killing Murderers, even though Reds vs Noto's was probably the height of Role Playing in UO, it was nonetheless combatized through this segregative method.
The general impression I got from RP'ers- is that they thought PvP'ers were thoughtless fools who wanted to click on stuff until it died. eg. CS meets role playing game- or the other attitude, that PvP'ers were all griefers and exploiters. Either way- it wasnt pleasant, and didnt help matters. I do recall at one point in response to the carebearification of a game that PvP'ers started making a point of interefering with Role Playing events eg. all of them picking one side of a RP fight, and make sure it broke the storyline- as they'd had enough of it. GM's banned them- but they no longer cared the game wasnt for them anymore.
5) Special Interests
I remember in 1997/1998, GM's in UO used to run PvP duelling competitions. They were great fun, and I actually felt my interests were being catered to by the game company. Over time though, my interests stopped being catered to, and the RP crowd got more and more time from the "creative" writers. It started being more and more political.
It was as though my $10 a month wasnt worth as much as other people's $10 a month.
I got screwed, and they got GM blessed towns that GM's created for them, that they used to get rich.
Now, there was an incentive to walk the walk, talk the talk and get the reward- even if you werent serious about it. Suck up to the right people and you could score a vendor at a player run town and the cash would roll in.
My points here, are to suggest that the kind of game I like to see- is where everyone has equal opportunity to play the way they want to. The game mechanic should keep a baseline for all to follow- such that no special interest gets attention that others do not get.
When the nerfbat is swung, it should affect everyone- or nobody.
Eve, is seeing the nerfbat more and more now, and it's an unpleasant development.
Things are getting changed because people are good at things, not because of a particular imbalance.
An example, dual microwarp drived ships are going to be a thing of the past- this is occurring because people felt that it was imbalanced. Assume for a second, that each microwarp drive you put on, steals essentally 25% of your total capacitor (or mana if you will), so with 2 on, you lose half your cap (mana). On top of that, for each one you put on, someone can target you much faster- like radar cross section, your frigate by default may have the radar cross section of a tennis ball, put a microwarpdrive on, it's now the size of a car, put a second one on, it's now the size of a battleship (or larger), this means people can target you very very quickly.
These all sound bad right? well- apparently not bad enough for some- so it's not being allowed very soon.
In my opinion, RP'ing in MMORPG is due to expire because it a game play style that isnt popular, and requires people who do not agree with it, to change how they play so that it can occur. In a global populous, this is not a reasonable expectation.
This trend is very expected, and in my view- not that big of a deal.
Nerfing is a more upsetting trend.
Next thing you know- there will be samurai's in space.. oh hang on, another MMORPG is already working on that
Monkiboy
Zoners
Curse Alliance
Hi Monkey...
You have a nice argument, but unfortunately you are highlighting the WORST of the RP fanatics... in the same way that there are some PvP'ers who ONLY want lots of guns and killing everywhere (the "CS" crowd as many call them)
yes there are bad points on all sides.
I think i'm a dying breed - a RPer who likes PvP.
my idea of RP is takeing a role and making a difference in the world/group because of my words and actions. Note - no emphasis on words or action above the other.. they need to be both there.
If i want to RP the "ultimate good warriors", then i damn well better have the guts and skill to go toe to toe with the most griefing PKer out there. If i cant do that, i'm just a wannabe.
A RPer who doesn't want PvP is a person who wants to play a single player game and be "THE HERO", which is the wrong mindset for a MMORPG. In Eve ppl have to realise - they are playing a "nobody" ONLY your actions will change that opinion, both ingame and on the forums.
The two extremes "I AM HERO" RPers and griefing PKers are both bad.
All i would ask is that PvPers have some respect for RP, and at least give some thought to how their desires and acts can be reflected in the fiction of the game...
and i would also ask that RPers not talk shit and try to back up their words with actions.
The nerf on MWD i think is needed, even if i disagree with the exact "how" CCP is doing it. (shoudl always have been an additive stacking bonus, not multiplicative.
I'm saddened by your opinion of RP and I personally hope I never see they day when it dies in MMORPG (at which point we'll have to call them something else!)
Its true there are some 'fanatic' RPers out there - but taring groups of players with the same brush is just as applicable to PvP players as RP players. I can only assume that you are either not an RPer or you have had difficulty finding an RP group that shares your interests. From your desciption of UO I can only conclude that you are a PvP player and disliked the attention the RP players got - I'd therefore as you the following question - which MMORPG since UO has had the same kind of RP bias? (fairly certain the answer is going to be 'none')
Having said that I can see how and why RP players would end up being like that - since 'official' support for player organised RP is non-existant in any game I have played its very easy for an 'event' to be screwed up by other players either intentionally griefing it (because the game mechanics allow them to and theres no one to stop them) or accidentally screwing it up by being in the wrong place and doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. The result is an 'event' that is largely scripted down to the last detail and only members of that RP group are allowed to participate (because they are the only ones that have been briefed and can be trusted not to deviate from the agreed script)
Well, as can be seen from my original post, I heartily disagree. What I did not say was that EVE would be the best online RPG game. MMORPGs in general are not roleplaying games, even though roleplaying is possible when you play them.
There are quite a few RPG corporations in EVE. Most don't make a big number out of it, as it seems the players are rather content on keeping the roleplaying circles tight.
What is special in EVE is the design that allows player impact and content generation by the players. In any other game there is little persistency, character actions do not really leave any marks into the game world and they do not affect other players in any way. Just so I make myself clear, jumping out of the bush and killing another character doesn't fall into the categories mentioned above
I doubt a game could survive in the market solely as a roleplaying MMORPG (well, at least compared to MUSHes). I haven't seen any other MMORPG out there where roleplaying would not require conscious effort, and choosing between "playing the game" and "playing a role". In EVE that gap is extremely narrow. What good comes out of it for a "non-roleplaying" player? For me it means depth and being able to take the game content more seriously. It creates the feeling of "being there", rather than "making this funny avatar do funky stuff and kill mobs".
That is an odd perspective indeed, even though understandable on some levels. To me seeing a character is not a requirement. Assuming I was playing a tabletop roleplaying game, I wouldn't see my character anyways. In quite a few ways this is a good thing, just as reading a book leaves room for your imagination compared to watching a movie. Also, not having an avatar with funny emotes you have to focus more in the verbal output and actions.
As a sidenote, as this doesn't really concern any issues in the original post: Concerning the race differences.. EVE as a game is ever evolving, just like any other MMORPG and I'd be sorely pissed off something in the game changed so that I'd regret my choice of character breed. Right now in EVE you can keep chasing the cookie cutter setups of the month if you want, without limitations or need to roll out a new character if you want to excel in something new.
Well.. Unfortunately the next generation that will one day follow after EVE was just pushed back some two year, maybe even more, with the release of EQ2 and WoW. Those two will dominate the western markets quite a bit, and the unfortunate effect that will follow is that people will keep thinking that what's in those games is the best you can get - killing monsters for xp and loot so you can kill bigger monsters for xp and loot.
Nothing wrong with that. Good sword & sorcery stuff is ever welcome. It's just not exactly the pinacle of good game design nor expanding the possibilities of the genre.
You list just one example to try supporting your notion that RPing does not exist in any MMORPG. BTW, RPing does so exist in AO.
AO also does indeed have an ongoing backstory. For anyone who takes the time to read it. It even has videos of it. Again, if one wants to role-play, form a RP guild, or join one. Just like if one wants to engage in non-stop PvP one joins a PvP oriented guild, or forms one.
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Bad design when a game wants to accomodate both hard core grinders and roleplayers, but can't create the mechanics to fit them both in. I've seen the same, mostly in MMORPGs where roleplaying, by my definition, is just chatting about silly stuff or imagining social structures that do not exist in the game mechanics. Take AO as a good example.
Again an example of the usual MMORPG design where a xp/pvp game is given a "storyline" that consists of some random, mismatch fluff.
Never seen that happen. Generally I prefer an open, mildly and consistently restricted PvP environments (like, surprise surprise, EVE) where everything is in the player/character skill. If someone wants to call himself a hotshot and big name in the killing business, it's generally a good thing to be able to prove it.
Just as generally I don't like games where PvP is restricted in a silly way, like in AO. If you're in a right place (rite about anywhere), you can say and do anything and nobody will be able to shoot your brains on the wall. I just hate invisible lines with "no fighting on this side" banners.
I certainly must've missed something as I completely skipped UO. Haven't really seen this like.. right about ever. Those people apparently have a hard time grasping the media of the MMORPGs, and how it differs from say, tabletop roleplaying.
Nothing new to this. Nor to nerfs. Frankly, if you don't like nerfs, don't play MMORPGs. They're as much a part of the games as is the way the games develop over time.
No, they really don't sound bad. There was a need to fix something. They solved it in one possible way. I for once can't disagree with their choice and out of the people I personally know that play EVE (30+) not a single person has complained. Granted, not everyone agrees to exactly how the nerf was executed. Nerfs are a touchy subject, and forum whiners make it all the worse.
Quite the contrary. Just keep in mind that RP in a virtual environment with the current technology wont by anywhere near the older medias of roleplaying for a long, long while.
What is a fact though, is that companies that create games want to draw in players and they want to keep those players in the game, paying their monthly subscriptions even after their graphics are no longer the best around, and even when the company swings the nerf bat.
Currently the companies know a few tricks. They know how to create a "good" grind, how to make people want to build something and make it take enough effort so that they don't want to let go. What the companies can't replicate yet is fun of the game that isn't tied to building and growing a character bigger and better. They don't know yet how to create content that stands on its own feet.
Roleplaying games and the techniques developed in that field are one way to approach solving the problem.
Well, as can be seen from my original post, I heartily disagree. What I did not say was that EVE would be the best online RPG game. MMORPGs in general are not roleplaying games, even though roleplaying is possible when you play them.
There are quite a few RPG corporations in EVE. Most don't make a big number out of it, as it seems the players are rather content on keeping the roleplaying circles tight.
What is special in EVE is the design that allows player impact and content generation by the players. In any other game there is little persistency, character actions do not really leave any marks into the game world and they do not affect other players in any way. Just so I make myself clear, jumping out of the bush and killing another character doesn't fall into the categories mentioned above
I doubt a game could survive in the market solely as a roleplaying MMORPG (well, at least compared to MUSHes). I haven't seen any other MMORPG out there where roleplaying would not require conscious effort, and choosing between "playing the game" and "playing a role". In EVE that gap is extremely narrow. What good comes out of it for a "non-roleplaying" player? For me it means depth and being able to take the game content more seriously. It creates the feeling of "being there", rather than "making this funny avatar do funky stuff and kill mobs".
That is an odd perspective indeed, even though understandable on some levels. To me seeing a character is not a requirement. Assuming I was playing a tabletop roleplaying game, I wouldn't see my character anyways. In quite a few ways this is a good thing, just as reading a book leaves room for your imagination compared to watching a movie. Also, not having an avatar with funny emotes you have to focus more in the verbal output and actions.
As a sidenote, as this doesn't really concern any issues in the original post: Concerning the race differences.. EVE as a game is ever evolving, just like any other MMORPG and I'd be sorely pissed off something in the game changed so that I'd regret my choice of character breed. Right now in EVE you can keep chasing the cookie cutter setups of the month if you want, without limitations or need to roll out a new character if you want to excel in something new.
Well.. Unfortunately the next generation that will one day follow after EVE was just pushed back some two year, maybe even more, with the release of EQ2 and WoW. Those two will dominate the western markets quite a bit, and the unfortunate effect that will follow is that people will keep thinking that what's in those games is the best you can get - killing monsters for xp and loot so you can kill bigger monsters for xp and loot.
Nothing wrong with that. Good sword & sorcery stuff is ever welcome. It's just not exactly the pinacle of good game design nor expanding the possibilities of the genre.
Dam nice post. I agree 100%. Couldnt say it better myself.
Signaturen-Creator
As I mention in a reply above, MMORPGs are roleplaying games just as much as any computer roleplaying games like Baldur's Gate.
By definition, you can roleplay alone in a dark closet. That doesn't mean that it would make the dark closet a closetRPG, nor a roleplaying closet.
Multiple players and chat features allow communication in MMORPGs, and that does indeed make roleplaying possible. However, the restrictions and limitations make MMORPGs as a media an equivalent of PBeMs and irc RPGs. Basically, what you're talking about is possible, but highly discouraged and limited by the design in most of the MMORPGs.
Apparently you haven't either been there for a while, or not for long. First of all, while some nice fluff, AO storyline has been dead for about.. two years now? Second, the storyline never, ever had any actual (as opposed to "forced by imagination") impact in the game. Third, again: you can eat concrete, but it doesn't make conrete edible. Nor healthy.
actually, it woulden't be worth making another 3d space trading game using point and click methods because then it would actually be another eve clone.
if there was a 3d space trading game using flight phsyics and twitch based controls, then it would be another privateer/elite clone.
in my own vivid imagination, I think that 3d twitch based space trading game would be a bit overrated.. and it's pretty scary that i can make my own 3d poly models and skin them as well too.
Hmm ? If this is the same Monkiboy from a few years back on the EVE forums he has always been pretty pessimistic when it comes to the RP side of things (A bad experience that damaged him for life it seems). I would say; take his comments with a pinch of salt so to say.
The comments about RP griefers and the likes are in fact far and very very few between because just like anyone else the basic RP player is just out there to have fun too. The difference is though, most RP players are looking to expand the story line of the gaming world they are in, that or create new additions to that RP world.
The points about nerfing to in some way soften up the game for Rpers is really moot, it has nothing to do with the RP side of things its purely about balancing the mechanics of the game(EVE in this case). Monkiboy is just using it as an escape goat to vent his own personal frustrations for how he likes to play EVE in his way.
Now I said this years ago on the EVE boards: There is room for all kinds of players within the EVE universe, be that PvPers, Rpers, Power-gamers and yes dare I say it even griefers , its all about adapting and finding your slot. The CCP has set/is setting a universe were all is possible for all kinds of people and their styles of play. Its just up to the individual on what level they wish to cross over into each-others styles of play.
I know from my perspective I RP full on all of the time and the universe about me is just as interactive, the group/s I am within thrive on RP and with that it creates a far more and deeper, richer gaming experience for all those I am with.
No one is forced into anything, no one is forced to do anything everyone I know whom engages in the RP side does so because they want to. Its funny really because EVE seems to be a very different model from old school archetypes, in such a way as the moment you step into the EVE universe in a way you are Rping just purely by interacting with the universes gaming mechanics.
So I dont think it is in any way doom and gloom for anyone within the EVE universe, I mean the proof is in the pudding so to speak; I myself have been within EVE since its very beginning and am still here doing my RP thing and still growing with it, the likes of Monkiboy here have been here I dont know a few years also maybe? And is still doing his thing just fine down in the CA (Curse Alliance), room for all Id say no matter how much moaning any one person likes to do or what ever gaming style they follow.
No EVE is a vibrant gaming world that can and is played on many many levels, I like to liken it to an onion just keep peeling off the layers and you will find more depth in there.
Damn, now I sound like a fanboy.
Oh yes and very nice thread by the way.
Encina Technologies (ENTEC)
[color]"Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense.But the real universe is always one step beyond logic."[/color]
Encina Technologies (ENTEC)
I agree with a lot of the conclusions you make, but not with your premise. The superior economic structure and character development systems in EVE facilitate a deeply immersive experience.
But I don't believe roleplaying plays much of a function in the game's successful features. Economics are the primary motivator. Systems are claimed by alliancs and corporations because they contain resources which can net exceptional profits for those corporations. Pirates may be compelled by honor, but reaping named ship components or blackmailing cash are a huge motivational factor for player pirate activity.
In EVE, having 100 million ISK is significant as it will enable the purchase of a battleship, a blueprint, a few dozen prized tech 2 components, etc... This simply isn't the same in most other MMOGs, where character level is so much more significant.
For instance: A well-equipped level 30 wizard in EQ is going to get torched by a naked level 40 wizard...end of story, and no amount of cash is going to change that. It's highly reasonable for these 2 players to stand side by side with the same amount of hours played, or for the level 30 wizard to have played 20 more hours than the level 40 wizard. In the end, the level is everything.
And here is where the character development system comes in to complete the balance. The amount of time I spend in the game, combined with how I stack the learning of my skills, equates to my stature in EVE. Provided I have comparable skill as another player, if I have 100 million ISK to spend on a battleship and he does not I will smoke him brutally in PvP.
What this means is that I am motivated to make a profit in the game, and thus to do those drudgeries such as mining, agent running, or running errands for a CEO. It's meaningful to me, because it advances me toward having significant and meaningful advantages that similar players may not have.
There are many more points to make along these lines...but in the end its not the roleplaying that makes EVE such a compelling experience for players, it's the structure of the game and the manner with which it is played. The structure facilitates the roleplaying, but I posit to you that it is the structure and not the roleplaying that is the reason for EVE's successful gaming experience.
Ahhh yes, the wonderful chasing of isk, I would agree with you in part my friend that the detailed structure within EVE enables EVE to work so well, this is why I said before about once taking part in EVE it is the structure/gaming dynamics that is that what throws you into a semi role-playing mode anyway.
Isk and the way it plays out in the game is very important but it is just this chasing of it that can make the game meaningless and short lived in its fashion.
Let me explain, I dont know how many times Ive seen people join into the game only to drive at the point of seeking the next BIG ship the next great named item then loose them all only to loose all interest in the game itself ?
There is a rich story behind the EVE universe as you know, from the Rpers eyes to leave that alone is just madness. I mean after youve lost your big ship, joined with your group of 0.0 gate campers and sat around for hours on end doing your mining for millions of isk, but for what? What then? For what purpose? What aim? What goal? what reason? The RPing side of things adds reason to all of this, it creates a long term path other than the mere hoarding for hoardings sake, be the by a corp or by an individual.
Of course, people are different and all things appeal in different ways to different types. But if you get beyond the small time thinking of just the corp or just the individual player you start to automatically delve into a mode of RP without even focusing on it. Im talking about alliances and all the complexities and interactions that go with it.
With the release of SHIVA the game is being pushed even further along this line, I mean look at all the alliances that are within the game now. In a way all playing out an RP function purely by the design of the game itself, its all very interesting.
As I say I stand by what I said, there is room for everyone no matter what level you choose to interact with.
Lastly, I would just say I agree with you, it is the structure that makes the gaming experience but that said, I would say to you it is the RP adds so much "more" and truly makes it whole as a game.
Encina Technologies (ENTEC)