EQ = Theme park ? Do yourself a favour, go play it and come back and change your post. We won't hold it against you. Theme park style was introduced by WOW. It's a style amongst many; it's just not my cup of tea. I am just tired of companies rolling out WOW clones and I am hoping for a UO clone. That's "logically" not too hard to understand, is it ?
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
People are ok with Ultima Online clones because they come few and far in between already, and the sandbox genre as a whole has generated quite a...rabidly passionate following. Take a look at the Darkfall/Mortal Online fans: Telling them you don't like their game is akin to walking into a bar and shouting "football sucks!"
On the other hand, people are against Everquest clones because, with one or two exceptions, they are cheaper knockoffs of the original. It's like having the iPhone come out, and then a couple months later what comes out of China? The tPhone. It looks like the iPhone, but a distinctly uglier test model version. It has some of the same features, but they're not polished at all and it looks like it was designed simply by pictures of the original. Oh, and it's made by Appel and its CEO: Chang Jobs.
A clone MMO is something that takes the core concepts and mechanics of one game, and practically copies them in another without adding any distinct value.
That said, people aren't asking for UO clones, they're asking for new sandbox games that offer a high level of customization, player impact, and general freedom.
Basically how Eve is to UO. They're both sandbox games, but Eve is in a whole new ballpark than UO was gameplay and game mechanic wise.
WoW on the other hand, is essentially a rehash of the core EQ mechanics. Yes WoW does them better, but it hasn't specifically added anything particularly new other than simply polishing things up.
Theme park and sandbox need to be replaced because the only real sandbox game is Second Life, all other MMOs have a mixture of theme park and sandbox.
You're right Uquipu, Second Life is probably one of the only true sandbox games. But I think most people are simply confused with the term "Sandbox" in general.
A sandbox is merely a world created where the developers give you all the tools to do what you want with them. In a sense - freedom. And yes, there can still be limitations in a virtual sandbox world and still be perfectly sandboxy. For instance, if you've created an ancient medieval world, its virtually imposible to go outside of that and create aliens with flying saucers. Its just not possible within the confinements of the virtual laws of the world and the tools the developers have created for you. So of course there's going to be some limitations within a sandbox game. And that does not exempt it from being a true sandbox.
I think overall, just alot of people are confused with what exactly is a "Sandbox". Because there aren't many recent sandbox games released post-WoW (when most of the new MMO subscribers came into the online gaming atmosphere) to experience.
This thread doesn't make any sense. Games do not clone Everquest now, they clone WoW. How can I say that when WoW is an EQ clone? Because WoW now has tremendous amounts of content types far beyond EQ.
I don't care what you "clone"; make a new game that has interesting features and gameplay mechanics and I'll try it.
This thread doesn't make any sense. Games do not clone Everquest now, they clone WoW. How can I say that when WoW is an EQ clone? Because WoW now has tremendous amounts of content types far beyond EQ.
I don't care what you "clone"; make a new game that has interesting features and gameplay mechanics and I'll try it.
•Pre-determined classes
•Quest
•Pre-determined raids
•Restricted level based zones
•linked mobs
•EXPANSION PACKS (the tell all of any theme park MMORPG)
Also Levels
(Copy Paste) because all of these features are copied right from Everquest in the new age of Theme Park MMOs.
OK so it’s ok to Clone Ultima Online, but it’s not ok to Clone Everquest?
I get this message, because I see a lot of members of this site scream about how the MMORPG industry isn’t innovating, and is copying WoW, yet these same people are perfectly fine with games copying the granddaddy of Sandbox games (Ultima Online). Whats the deal on this? These people complain about Clones of theme park games reducing the innovation in the industry, but wouldn’t UO Sandbox Clones be the same thing Logically?
Didn’t Everquest, The granddaddy of Theme Park MMOs, prove once before, that it is the style of gameplay that people like most, back then when Sandbox games were dominant? So why is this community so angry when newer games try to follow EQ’s path of gameplay? Blizzard did it with WoW, and had major success. So why can’t others?
Is it Everquest, or Theme Park style gameplay’s fault, that newer MMORPG developers are taking too much focus on Graphics, and releasing unfinished products, that ultimately lead to their game’s failure?
No I don’t think so.
So whats so wrong with copying Everquest, that doesn’t apply to games that copy Ultima Online?
EQ was not a themepark. It was a wide open world where people where left to find their own direction.
I wish someone would make a really well done clone of the original EQ.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Because if you clone something for the sheer $$$$$$$ it is sooooooooo lame, like everyone doing themeparks, if you clone a sandbox you have to be a little more innovating to survive. It is not BAD to copy something, a new sandbox UO clone (i would love that) would have to innovate a lot to bring UO to 3D without losing appeal. Some theme parks also want to innovate SW:ToR is a clear example, but mostly everything has been tried, in WoW... so...
Because if you clone something for the sheer $$$$$$$ it is sooooooooo lame, like everyone doing themeparks, if you clone a sandbox you have to be a little more innovating to survive. It is not BAD to copy something, a new sandbox UO clone (i would love that) would have to innovate a lot to bring UO to 3D without losing appeal. Some theme parks also want to innovate SW:ToR is a clear example, but mostly everything has been tried, in WoW... so...
Its that there are a lot of people who are just tired of EQ clones.
Its kinda like if all video games were all just the same Mario 3 knock offs over and over again. Sure, each game might be slightly different (setting/characters), but in the end you just crave something totally different - like maybe a FPS or Sim game just to break up the monotony.
After all, the world would be a very bland place if all you had was Vanilla Ice Cream to choose from.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
•EXPANSION PACKS (the tell all of any theme park MMORPG) Also Levels
- Classes impose a structure and a group role, they do NOTlimit what can be done in game, the aid the story by giving it stucture
- Quests were never requried for advancement. They were a part of the story that was available if wanted.
- There were only a small handful of raids, Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox mostly. They were not a goal, rather a final challenge.
- The zones were less level restricted than you might think. You were perfectly free to challenge whatever content you thought were strong enough to take on, in any zone you wished. Even then, most zones covered a wide range of capabilities.
- Linked mobs did not exist in the original EQ. The first linked mobs were the pair of temple guards tied to Derakor the Vidiator in Kael Drakkel. Linked mobs are still mostly a raid feature.
- Expansion packes??? No MMO will last long without updates. Even game like Ultima still update.
Levels are a means of tracking a characters growing skill. Skill points serve the exact same function. The only difference is skill points break the advancement up into smaller chunks.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
EQ had little to no quest. The typical quest in EQ gave no XP, and most took days or hours to complete.
Before WoW came along, there was no instant regen in EQ. You sat your butt down, and waited 15 agonizing minutes.
Raids? Ok, but EQ didn't start out as a raiding game. Raids didn't become the focus of EQ until sometime in 2001, or whenever PoP was released.
Group play. WoW has terrible group play. WoW only encourages grouping at max level.
The differences are endless between these two games. Anyone who thinks they are similar has never played EQ.
I wish there was a current game that copied EQ mechanics and spirit. Now, all we have are a bunch of single player games where you don't group until you're ready to get geared for raiding. Sad.
Care to elaborate the Theme Park features of classic EQ?
Pre-determined classes
Quest
Pre-determined raids
Restricted level based zones
linked mobs
EXPANSION PACKS (the tell all of any theme park MMORPG)
Forgot lvls
Really?
So classics like Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secrets of the Silver Blade, Pools of Darkness, The Bard's Tale 1, 2 an 3, the Might and Magic series, Eye of the Beholder series, Gateway to the Savage Frontier series, Champions of Krynn series are all examples of theme park games?
Of course, if your someone who has never delved into what a true RPG is, then I can see where you might think the definition of themepark is so cut and dry. Go play some real games, then come back to us with a definition of theme park.
The definitions are far more complex than a few features.
WoW? Please. EQ had little to no quest. The typical quest in EQ gave no XP, and most took days or hours to complete. Before WoW came along, there was no instant regen in EQ. You sat your butt down, and waited 15 agonizing minutes. Raids? Ok, but EQ didn't start out as a raiding game. Raids didn't become the focus of EQ until sometime in 2001, or whenever PoP was released. Group play. WoW has terrible group play. WoW only encourages grouping at max level.
The differences are endless between these two games. Anyone who thinks they are similar has never played EQ. I wish there was a current game that copied EQ mechanics and spirit. Now, all we have are a bunch of single player games where you don't group until you're ready to get geared for raiding. Sad.
Its not so much the whole 'quest' thing that is used to compare a game like WoW to EQ. People use the game structure itself to compare. EQ was essentially the first graphical 3D mmo to use Archtypes, Area Progression (Zone based) and 2 factions. WoW built off this (even the devs have stated that if EQ never existed then WoW wouldnt have either, Rob Pardo interview).
By EQ clone they dont mean exact carbon copy, but rather a large collection of ideas and principles. It has nothing to do with group vs solo play or quests/no quests. Its also not meant as an insult to EQ or games that followed it in the same basic image. Its just easier to compare those games to EQ seeing as the basic principles are the same.
Also, most of the comparrisons are to current EQ (as EQ is now) vs Classic EQ.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
(even the devs have stated that if EQ never existed then WoW wouldnt have either, Rob Pardo interview).
Because EQ made MMOs popular. Just like EVE wouldn't exist without EQ, because EQ brought investors to the market.
There are certainly similarities between EQ and WoW(they are both RPG based games), but there are similarities between EVE and EQ, too. Tanks, DPS and support roles, no? You're telling me EVE doesn't have archetypes or classes? C'mon, you're brighter than that.
Comments
EQ = Theme park ? Do yourself a favour, go play it and come back and change your post. We won't hold it against you. Theme park style was introduced by WOW. It's a style amongst many; it's just not my cup of tea. I am just tired of companies rolling out WOW clones and I am hoping for a UO clone. That's "logically" not too hard to understand, is it ?
People are ok with Ultima Online clones because they come few and far in between already, and the sandbox genre as a whole has generated quite a...rabidly passionate following. Take a look at the Darkfall/Mortal Online fans: Telling them you don't like their game is akin to walking into a bar and shouting "football sucks!"
On the other hand, people are against Everquest clones because, with one or two exceptions, they are cheaper knockoffs of the original. It's like having the iPhone come out, and then a couple months later what comes out of China? The tPhone. It looks like the iPhone, but a distinctly uglier test model version. It has some of the same features, but they're not polished at all and it looks like it was designed simply by pictures of the original. Oh, and it's made by Appel and its CEO: Chang Jobs.
So to sum up:
Ultima Online-esque sandbox games = Good
Everquest clones = Crappy knockoff.
What is this up to date graphics, pay to play, Ultima Clone you speak of? I would like to try this game.
Please post a link.
Original everquest was actually a quasi sandbox/theme park game.
A clone MMO is something that takes the core concepts and mechanics of one game, and practically copies them in another without adding any distinct value.
That said, people aren't asking for UO clones, they're asking for new sandbox games that offer a high level of customization, player impact, and general freedom.
Basically how Eve is to UO. They're both sandbox games, but Eve is in a whole new ballpark than UO was gameplay and game mechanic wise.
WoW on the other hand, is essentially a rehash of the core EQ mechanics. Yes WoW does them better, but it hasn't specifically added anything particularly new other than simply polishing things up.
I just wish soe would clone everquest 1 and bring it to the 21st century in terms of graphics.
You're right Uquipu, Second Life is probably one of the only true sandbox games. But I think most people are simply confused with the term "Sandbox" in general.
A sandbox is merely a world created where the developers give you all the tools to do what you want with them. In a sense - freedom. And yes, there can still be limitations in a virtual sandbox world and still be perfectly sandboxy. For instance, if you've created an ancient medieval world, its virtually imposible to go outside of that and create aliens with flying saucers. Its just not possible within the confinements of the virtual laws of the world and the tools the developers have created for you. So of course there's going to be some limitations within a sandbox game. And that does not exempt it from being a true sandbox.
I think overall, just alot of people are confused with what exactly is a "Sandbox". Because there aren't many recent sandbox games released post-WoW (when most of the new MMO subscribers came into the online gaming atmosphere) to experience.
this statement is true
+1
Second Life = 100% sandbox
UO = 40% thempark, 60% sandbox
EQ1 = 60% thempark, 40% sandbox
Darkfall = 20% themepark, 80% sandbox
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Care to elaborate the Theme Park features of classic EQ?
"to most people"? Really? You believe that?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This thread doesn't make any sense. Games do not clone Everquest now, they clone WoW. How can I say that when WoW is an EQ clone? Because WoW now has tremendous amounts of content types far beyond EQ.
I don't care what you "clone"; make a new game that has interesting features and gameplay mechanics and I'll try it.
EQ was a Diku MUD clone with a graphical 3D front end.
So WoW is a Diku MUD clone too.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Forgot lvls
Forgot lvls
How are levels a themepark feature?
•Pre-determined classes
•Quest
•Pre-determined raids
•Restricted level based zones
•linked mobs
•EXPANSION PACKS (the tell all of any theme park MMORPG)
Also Levels
(Copy Paste) because all of these features are copied right from Everquest in the new age of Theme Park MMOs.
EQ was not a themepark. It was a wide open world where people where left to find their own direction.
I wish someone would make a really well done clone of the original EQ.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Because if you clone something for the sheer $$$$$$$ it is sooooooooo lame, like everyone doing themeparks, if you clone a sandbox you have to be a little more innovating to survive. It is not BAD to copy something, a new sandbox UO clone (i would love that) would have to innovate a lot to bring UO to 3D without losing appeal. Some theme parks also want to innovate SW:ToR is a clear example, but mostly everything has been tried, in WoW... so...
THEY ARE ALL IN IT FOR MONEY!!!
STOP TRYING TO SINGLE SIDE THAT AS AN EXCUSE!!!
Its not that people hate EQ clones.
Its that there are a lot of people who are just tired of EQ clones.
Its kinda like if all video games were all just the same Mario 3 knock offs over and over again. Sure, each game might be slightly different (setting/characters), but in the end you just crave something totally different - like maybe a FPS or Sim game just to break up the monotony.
After all, the world would be a very bland place if all you had was Vanilla Ice Cream to choose from.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
- Classes impose a structure and a group role, they do NOTlimit what can be done in game, the aid the story by giving it stucture
- Quests were never requried for advancement. They were a part of the story that was available if wanted.
- There were only a small handful of raids, Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox mostly. They were not a goal, rather a final challenge.
- The zones were less level restricted than you might think. You were perfectly free to challenge whatever content you thought were strong enough to take on, in any zone you wished. Even then, most zones covered a wide range of capabilities.
- Linked mobs did not exist in the original EQ. The first linked mobs were the pair of temple guards tied to Derakor the Vidiator in Kael Drakkel. Linked mobs are still mostly a raid feature.
- Expansion packes??? No MMO will last long without updates. Even game like Ultima still update.
Levels are a means of tracking a characters growing skill. Skill points serve the exact same function. The only difference is skill points break the advancement up into smaller chunks.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Show me a game that has copied EQ?
WoW? Please.
EQ had little to no quest. The typical quest in EQ gave no XP, and most took days or hours to complete.
Before WoW came along, there was no instant regen in EQ. You sat your butt down, and waited 15 agonizing minutes.
Raids? Ok, but EQ didn't start out as a raiding game. Raids didn't become the focus of EQ until sometime in 2001, or whenever PoP was released.
Group play. WoW has terrible group play. WoW only encourages grouping at max level.
The differences are endless between these two games. Anyone who thinks they are similar has never played EQ.
I wish there was a current game that copied EQ mechanics and spirit. Now, all we have are a bunch of single player games where you don't group until you're ready to get geared for raiding. Sad.
Forgot lvls
Really?
So classics like Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secrets of the Silver Blade, Pools of Darkness, The Bard's Tale 1, 2 an 3, the Might and Magic series, Eye of the Beholder series, Gateway to the Savage Frontier series, Champions of Krynn series are all examples of theme park games?
Of course, if your someone who has never delved into what a true RPG is, then I can see where you might think the definition of themepark is so cut and dry. Go play some real games, then come back to us with a definition of theme park.
The definitions are far more complex than a few features.
Its not so much the whole 'quest' thing that is used to compare a game like WoW to EQ. People use the game structure itself to compare. EQ was essentially the first graphical 3D mmo to use Archtypes, Area Progression (Zone based) and 2 factions. WoW built off this (even the devs have stated that if EQ never existed then WoW wouldnt have either, Rob Pardo interview).
By EQ clone they dont mean exact carbon copy, but rather a large collection of ideas and principles. It has nothing to do with group vs solo play or quests/no quests. Its also not meant as an insult to EQ or games that followed it in the same basic image. Its just easier to compare those games to EQ seeing as the basic principles are the same.
Also, most of the comparrisons are to current EQ (as EQ is now) vs Classic EQ.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
(even the devs have stated that if EQ never existed then WoW wouldnt have either, Rob Pardo interview).
Because EQ made MMOs popular. Just like EVE wouldn't exist without EQ, because EQ brought investors to the market.
There are certainly similarities between EQ and WoW(they are both RPG based games), but there are similarities between EVE and EQ, too. Tanks, DPS and support roles, no? You're telling me EVE doesn't have archetypes or classes? C'mon, you're brighter than that.