Solo vs grouplay thats the arguement we have here essentially.
I think solo play is fine in moderation for the average casual player, casual player having no real set definition in the sense that everyone has a different opinion I will give my own definition for purposes of this discussion. I'd say in the setting of an MMO a casual player has about 2 hours a day in one or multiple sittings to play.
Solo content allows casual players to log on for a short time and progress their character, I think this best suits completionists who like to get all the achievements or gather all the recipies whatever, collectors and such. There should be enough of this content to keep a person busy for a good chunk of time per character. The problem is alot of people who play solo aren't casual players, its not uncommon to hear about 4-12 hour gameplay stretchs in any given day. They burn through this content very quickly and then need to utilize groups and social skills.
If you give solo players are given enough options to progress their characters in relative respect of grouping, I don't see why we cant accomodate both playstyles, should the overall rewards be up to par as the grouping players no, its an MMO thats the idea, a social fun interactive game. What in my opinion the problem is, is that because of the popularity of WoW's loot progression system, they see loot as fun, rewards are the fun part of the game and when they see they are getting an inferior reward naturally complaints arise. This is why I think gear progression shouldn't be the only or main progression of a character in our future MMO's. The actual act of playing the game needs to be enjoyable not just the idea of if I kill this many more pigs I'll get my next gear piece and THEN it will be fun, because then your just grinding in a negative context. The only way to do this though is for game developers to be more innovative and take risks, you can't please humans forever but you can please them long enough to keep them paying your subscriptions for awhile, we need new innovative ideas wrapped in good classic playstyles.
"Don't design an MMO around the assumption that players are a "type" of gamer. I often hear developers discussing whether an individual is a roleplayer, or a PvP player, or a solo player. Our belief is that while you can certainly find players who exclusively fall into one category, most players dabble in everything. It is tempting to believe that because a player is playing an MMO, and because good MMOs are social games, every player must therefore like to play with other players in a group. Our experience with Guild Wars is that this is an erroneous and dangerous assumption. On any given day, a player may want to play with his guild, or he may want to play with his best friend, or he may want to play alone. The fact that he is playing in a large communal environment is not a predictor of how he wants to play. We should be striving to make games that let you play how you want to play right now, and offer you the flexibility to progress with any combination of players you like.
Don't underestimate the importance of solo play! Sometimes your friends aren't online, sometimes you want to kill 30 minutes while everyone groups together, and sometimes you just don't want to go to committee on every damn decision. The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience. A few months before the release of Guild Wars we added computer-controlled henchmen to the game as a way to pad out your party when your friends weren't around. Later we enhanced this feature and introduced computer-controlled Heroes, which gave you control over their actions and more fully supported the notion of playing the game entirely on your own. While it may seem counterintuitive to add features that support the solo play experience into an MMO, we believe that Guild Warswould not have been as successful had we not added these features."
"Don't design an MMO around the assumption that players are a "type" of gamer. I often hear developers discussing whether an individual is a roleplayer, or a PvP player, or a solo player. Our belief is that while you can certainly find players who exclusively fall into one category, most players dabble in everything. It is tempting to believe that because a player is playing an MMO, and because good MMOs are social games, every player must therefore like to play with other players in a group. Our experience with Guild Wars is that this is an erroneous and dangerous assumption. On any given day, a player may want to play with his guild, or he may want to play with his best friend, or he may want to play alone. The fact that he is playing in a large communal environment is not a predictor of how he wants to play. We should be striving to make games that let you play how you want to play right now, and offer you the flexibility to progress with any combination of players you like.
Don't underestimate the importance of solo play! Sometimes your friends aren't online, sometimes you want to kill 30 minutes while everyone groups together, and sometimes you just don't want to go to committee on every damn decision. The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience. A few months before the release of Guild Wars we added computer-controlled henchmen to the game as a way to pad out your party when your friends weren't around. Later we enhanced this feature and introduced computer-controlled Heroes, which gave you control over their actions and more fully supported the notion of playing the game entirely on your own. While it may seem counterintuitive to add features that support the solo play experience into an MMO, we believe that Guild Warswould not have been as successful had we not added these features."
Why is this a debate BETWEEN solo and group play? That is completely missing the point. I love grouping, BUT....not every damn day. I'm not always in the mood to group. Sometimes I just want to play with my real life partner and go off and just the two of us conquer something. Some days we raid with loads of people.
In my opinion, games are FAILING if they don't succeed in giving the player the OPTION to play in ALL these ways. I'm not a robot that feels the same way every day and always predictably wants to do the same thing, thank you very much.
I understand your points but what tends to happen with making both work at the same time is that 90% of the people will go with the path of least resistance.
If its easier to get things in a group, soloers complain about forced grouping. If its easier to get things solo then...People who like grouping will most likely be forced to not group then were all at where we started on forced grouping vs forced soloing.
Now if it were a co op game, grouping tends to have better benefits I think.. For example, rare drops are easier if youre in a full group in Borderlands. Most people dont see that as forced grouping but in an mmorpg, people WILL consider that forced grouping.
Now if you were to make different sets of equipment for groups and soloing (the same way that pvp and pve gear is divided) then maybe it can work. For example
Gear you get from soloing = more in the middle (dps chars get less dps and more survivability, tank chars get less survivability and more damage, etc) that would make you a better soloer.
Gear from grouping = more focused and specialized gear that would make you better for groups
gear from pvp = things like the pvp resistance thingies in wow? idk lol
Because from what I noticed, grouping and soloing tend to compete with each other instead of making them a completely different ballpark.
Basically
Stop making soloing and grouping mutually exclusive!!!
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I understand your points but what tends to happen with making both work at the same time is that 90% of the people will go with the path of least resistance.
If its easier to get things in a group, soloers complain about forced grouping. If its easier to get things solo then...People who like grouping will most likely be forced to not group then were all at where we started on forced grouping vs forced soloing.
Now if it were a co op game, grouping tends to have better benefits I think.. For example, rare drops are easier if youre in a full group in Borderlands. Most people dont see that as forced grouping but in an mmorpg, people WILL consider that forced grouping.
Now if you were to make different sets of equipment for groups and soloing (the same way that pvp and pve gear is divided) then maybe it can work. For example
Gear you get from soloing = more in the middle (dps chars get less dps and more survivability, tank chars get less survivability and more damage, etc) that would make you a better soloer.
Gear from grouping = more focused and specialized gear that would make you better for groups
gear from pvp = things like the pvp resistance thingies in wow? idk lol
Because from what I noticed, grouping and soloing tend to compete with each other instead of making them a completely different ballpark.
You and the other person brought up that they should be as important as each other so I decided to just add something that would hopefully make it better o.o
Everyone is interested in getting their rewards. So why not seperate grouping and soloing rewards so that theyre put in different stances instead of being forced to choose either?
That way instead of having the game go
PVE - solo/group
PVP
Itll end up with
Solo PVE
Group PVE
PVP
With that, people wont really be forced to solo or group and itll be fully a choice. No more fighting over "Oh grouping gets better rewards" or "Soloers can get this too so why bother grouping" yknoe?
Basically..at least this way, when you feel like soloing you can work on that and get things more suited for soloing or you can group and get stuff more suited for groupiinggg!
Im not really against soloing per se...but Just about all the games I tried was either forced soloing or forced grouping. Instead of having a mix of both.
City of heroes did okwhere you can solo or group and I thoguht that was a great idea. You can solo when you wanted and group when you wanted without being severely..gimped
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I understand what you were saying, Castille. I just want developers to do whatever it takes to give us the most OPTIONS in a game while making all those options equally good. Yes....I'm asking for a lot.
Well the main problem here actually is that the developers tend to cram solo content in the levelling phase and give minamal grouping. but then at end game they do a 180 and give group content (although repetetive -.-) and the solo content pretty much wears out unless its for...say...making money o.O
They can balance it out in the beginning by giving the option of group progression and solo progression.
The main problem of this is that the lack of content will be severely highlighted...But hey! they made pvp from level 1 to max level work they should be able to make solo to max level and group to max level work o.O
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You and the other person brought up that they should be as important as each other so I decided to just add something that would hopefully make it better o.o
Everyone is interested in getting their rewards. So why not seperate grouping and soloing rewards so that theyre put in different stances instead of being forced to choose either?
That way instead of having the game go
PVE - solo/group
PVP
Itll end up with
Solo PVE
Group PVE
PVP
With that, people wont really be forced to solo or group and itll be fully a choice. No more fighting over "Oh grouping gets better rewards" or "Soloers can get this too so why bother grouping" yknoe?
I don't think you are understanding what Jeff Strain said. Traditional MMO mechanics for solo play and group play go as this:
Solo: Quests, Mob grinding.
Group: Dungeons, PvP, Raids. Anything that you can do solo is easy and pointless with a group.
To get an idea of what Jeff Strain was saying watch this video:
The DEs in GW2 implement an AI that automatically scales the event to the amount of players that are participating in it. The players' level are also scaled down to the level of the event if they are too high so they can't grief lower level players and they can also enjoy the content.
This AI allows most events to be soloed and all of them to done with a group (with or wothout actually being in a group).
I didnt actually watch that o.O Ill edit this post later when I do watch that o.o My reply was generally in the making soloing viable n stuff o.o
Edit : As for scaling the event to players and levels, City of Heroes already had that ages ago with their invasions xD They were pretty fun except it seemed wayyy tooo zergey...not complaining though!
Edit 2 : After seeing this event thingie it really seems a lot like city of heroes invations in a way except larger scale I guess o.o My main problem with this is with the enemeis... IT sounds good but Im not sure if it will be an aoe heavy game (like city of heroes) or if it will have boss spawns as well...Im leaning towards aoe heavy since I heard that there are no healers in this game o.o
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I wasn't aware that we were specifically talking about GW2, but I do think I will like their implementation of varied styles of play and I love the side-kick feature and scaling. I quoted something about GW2 earlier, but I was really just talking about MMOs over all.
I wasn't aware that we were specifically talking about GW2, but I do think I will like their implementation of varied styles of play and I love the side-kick feature and scaling. I quoted something about GW2 earlier, but I was really just talking about MMOs over all.
I'm not specifically talking about GW2, I was just using the DEs as an example because the AI that was implemented allows any solo content to also be group content.
It actually sounds nice...but yah! o.o I wonder how the bosses will go though...Im half expecting it to be more or less action game style (dodging and no standing around tanking) instead of more trinity focused o.o Oh wells...TIme will tell o.O
But yah! I agree with catering to both solo and grouping at the same time like that!
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I wasn't aware that we were specifically talking about GW2, but I do think I will like their implementation of varied styles of play and I love the side-kick feature and scaling. I quoted something about GW2 earlier, but I was really just talking about MMOs over all.
I'm not specifically talking about GW2, I was just using the DEs as an example because the AI that was implemented allows any solo content to also be group content.
Ah....gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I get a bit confused sometimes when I'm reading multiple threads too, so it's probably partly just me. heh
I think that group play should be a faster path to advancement than solo play but I also think that you should be able to play solo if you really want to.
I think that group play should be a faster path to advancement than solo play but I also think that you should be able to play solo if you really want to.
This is something I agree with and don't understand why it isn't done. Endgames tend not to support solo playstyles, they go from easily solo leveling to a bait-and-switch at cap to group or die. If groups would get normal experience and soloers would get a smaller percentage of experience then not only would you foster grouping early on even for leveling but it would also artificially prolong the leveling content for soloers as there's nothing at endgame for them anyway (in most games- that is aside from achievements/titles/collections etc). Win/win.
If I have a static group of friends I enjoy grouping. Outside of that, generally I don’t care for it. Raiding I absolutely do not enjoy no matter how cool the mobs or dungeons look in any game. I have no desire to share that content due the negative experiences that come with it (people).
Perhaps I’m a person with little patience but waiting on others, repeating the same fight 400 times until people follow directions, in considerate behavior, the drama, the whining and chillness’, is such a big turn off I just can’t subject myself to that. I gave it a few tries and different games did get items for the time investment but the value I put in, my reward was not worth all that negative experience to receive it.
Solo and occasional group content (to break it up a bit) is most appealing to me. While Raiding and investing a life and a half to get a simple objective finished for an item may be appealing to some, it’s not me. Long as my gear allows me to enjoy the content I seek, (mostly solo) then I have no complaints.
However when you toss PVP in to the mix combined with different tiers of gear this doesn’t allow the solo or occasional grouper to enjoy it. I haven’t played all the games out there but something consistent I’ve found is PVP rewards are generally not equal. End result the raider’s rain supreme with the gear advantage.
I haven’t played a MMO in two years, I was pretty hard core between 2003-2009 but I was tired of the limitations in PVP. I’ve had all the best 5man content gear to the best PVP reward stuff in different games, with that generally speaking it sucks to get 1-2 shot by some raider pimped out.
Looking in to it more in-depth some games the time requirement to grind PVP rewards is much more involved and time consuming vs. raid content (of course this is circumstantial given the quality of team work) but over all that’s pretty consistent throughout.
What kept me going the last couple years in mmos was 5-boxing. Then I enjoyed grouping, a lot. In fact that’s all I ever did, and PVP. Granted I only had 5man gear but the focus fire in PVP was nasty. I grew tired of it however. Being strong like that is a bit lack luster, cool at first but it’s not fun unless its 5v5 or more. Something else most don’t consider is the value of an individual character.
You level, work and customize your character. Your achievements feel pretty rewarding. When you have 5, the individuality is taken away and while you may be getting upgrades the wealth or value of receiving it isn’t near as rewarding, more or less just a chore because you have so many.
I would like to resume playing MMOs again but I’m patiently waiting for game with a system that keeps the solo vs. raider content in PVP in mind along with consistent rewards across the board for the time investment.
To clarify Solo and small groupers don’t require or need Raider gear for the content they seek, least I’m content with that as a solo player. However PVP on the other hand must reflect this and allow it to be even across the board. If not that, least reward PVP players appropriately and evenly with reward and time investment.
Perhaps group and raid play would be more rewarding if you were in good company, sure many have one right now. But the bridge is burnt down for me in trying that route again. Here’s hoping one day more thought and the reasons behind the style of play is chosen and a happy medium is achieved for all.
In closing, there are quite a few games I haven’t tried. Perhaps this does exists, but without a free trail I won’t touch that game. I don’t reward failed mmos with $50; I reward them for a solid game after I test drive it.
MMOs should be a social type of thing. If all you want to do is solo, why not play a single player game?
On the other hand, i hate raids too. Too much waiting and dealing with stupid people. Its ok if you only have them occasionally, or they are optional, like in DAoC, you could go on a dragon raid, or if you dont want to do that, you can buy the items that other people got from the raid.
The problem is BOP and BOE. In daoc the raiders could actually trade or sell the gear they got from raids. This gives you an alternative to raiding. You can just go solo mobs all day until you have enough gold to buy what you need. Or you can go on a raid and get an item that has no use to you, but is desired by someone else, and then trade it for the item you want, or sell it to get money to buy the item.
BoP and BoE are the devil, spread the word!
You know what was cool about DaoC? Say im in galladoria, and a sweet 2h weapon drops, i can put it on to see how it looks, maybe whack a few mobs with it, to test a proc rate or whatever, and then take it off and give it to someone else.
This whole WoW model that everyone follows just turns everyone into a BAAAAAA sheep.
I’m on the same page and agree with you about the social aspect and your thoughts on BOE and BOP gear that would be a nice option for some.
I may complain about the grouping aspect but I do enjoy duo’s, I’m looking forward to Diablo 3, I think something like that would be a great fit for me. The problem with solo games however is lack of PVP that’s pretty much the content I enjoy the most provided even ground. The systems implemented don’t take in to consideration all the different play styles to make it enjoyable for all, perhaps one day (that’s what I’m waiting for).
If PVP wasn’t a factor it would be a heck of a lot easier for me to select a game such as a single player rpg which is what I mostly play now. But with the lack of social interaction they don’t last very long for me.
Group play all the way for me. Why? Because I don't like playing alone, and in my view MMORPG's are supposed to be group based. It gives a different feeling when you have to rely on others/friends to fulfill your progresss while also being an important part of your group and actually making a difference in other people's gameplay. Isn't that what an online game is all about anyway? To me it's sort of pointless to be in the same world as everyone when each goes their own way and does their own stuff. I have played games where grouping was a must-have for nearly everything and they were uncomparably more fun to me than other solo-based games. Yes, I know most 'solo' games you have an option to 'group', but what's the point of it if I'm spending most of my time alone, or could be getting nearly the same things alone? To me, the 'must-have' group factor is a lot more fun than the 'solo-up or group up' proposition. One of the most important parts of an MMO should be the community factor, some games might even suck but you'll still be playing it when you have a large group of friends or people to talk to or do things toguether. It sort of forces people to develop their social skills and interact with eachother, gives clans much more of a meaning, and actually gives more of a difficulty and less boring factor to the game itself. Could be just me, but I really like looking at my achievements (either gear, status, levels, skills etc) and thinking back all the good and bad times where me and my party were hunting for it, who and when messed up when they shouldn't, or that lucky drop we all shared back then.
So to sum it up, there should be solo choices, but the grand majority of worthwhile content and progression should be related to groups instead. To me there's not much point playing alone and I quickly get bored of an online game if there's no friends or people to talk to online, no matter how good it is. I have been into games where you would need constant parties for leveling, raiding, farming and mass PVP. But again, some of them aren't that popular anymore because the people's mentality has changed over the years into solo/easier playing, and I find it hard to imagine a game like this to be released in today's age. Shame
I think that grouping is fine I just think that groups should be smaller. Raids should be no more than 5 people. If you are going to have huge raids than the instance should scale so you could go in with 5 people but the loot will not be as good as 25 man. I think that everyone should be able to experience the content.
I also think that if soloing is your thing the game should allow you to. Everyone pays their $15 a month why not make the game so everyone can play the way they want to. If everything scaled to the number of people in your group it would solve a bunch of issues.
I think that grouping is fine I just think that groups should be smaller. Raids should be no more than 5 people. If you are going to have huge raids than the instance should scale so you could go in with 5 people but the loot will not be as good as 25 man. I think that everyone should be able to experience the content.
I agree with you that raids should be smaller in size, but I disagree that the loot should be inferior. If you make the difficulty scale the same between 5 and 25 players then the loot should be the same. The drop rate should increase if you decide to bring more people, but the quality of item should always be static.
Grouping should be the primary focus of a Massive Multiplayer Game, but I think we need an emphasis on smaller group content now. Games like WoW, in my opinion, do it all wrong. They emphasize and reward solo play all the way until end game, and only then does grouping take precedent. I think it cheats the new player of a great experience in teamwork, and lengthens the learning curve once they finally make it to end game dungeon and raid content.
On the flip side of that coin, I think it also lowers the barrier of entry for prospective players to join an MMO, so maybe it's not all bad.
I was gonna spew my old phogey rant about the current mindset of new gamers and the designers who cater to them, but whats the use. MMORPGS are a joke nowadays. If someone wants to do things by themselves why does anyone else care. I dont know or hear of many games that let a solo player advance as far in gear/loot as those who raid/pvp anyhow so who cares. After all these years, designers are too lazy and cheap to include varieties of gameplay? As for forcing socialization on people... are you kidding me? Half these players have no lives no jobs no friends, you want to force others to interact with these types of people lol. Oh gee sorry, im a hard arse who gets home and wants to relax by dealing with some man child who has been sitting at his pc all afternoon doing the same thing over and over and reading guides on how to be better at a game. hurray!
Comments
Solo vs grouplay thats the arguement we have here essentially.
I think solo play is fine in moderation for the average casual player, casual player having no real set definition in the sense that everyone has a different opinion I will give my own definition for purposes of this discussion. I'd say in the setting of an MMO a casual player has about 2 hours a day in one or multiple sittings to play.
Solo content allows casual players to log on for a short time and progress their character, I think this best suits completionists who like to get all the achievements or gather all the recipies whatever, collectors and such. There should be enough of this content to keep a person busy for a good chunk of time per character. The problem is alot of people who play solo aren't casual players, its not uncommon to hear about 4-12 hour gameplay stretchs in any given day. They burn through this content very quickly and then need to utilize groups and social skills.
If you give solo players are given enough options to progress their characters in relative respect of grouping, I don't see why we cant accomodate both playstyles, should the overall rewards be up to par as the grouping players no, its an MMO thats the idea, a social fun interactive game. What in my opinion the problem is, is that because of the popularity of WoW's loot progression system, they see loot as fun, rewards are the fun part of the game and when they see they are getting an inferior reward naturally complaints arise. This is why I think gear progression shouldn't be the only or main progression of a character in our future MMO's. The actual act of playing the game needs to be enjoyable not just the idea of if I kill this many more pigs I'll get my next gear piece and THEN it will be fun, because then your just grinding in a negative context. The only way to do this though is for game developers to be more innovative and take risks, you can't please humans forever but you can please them long enough to keep them paying your subscriptions for awhile, we need new innovative ideas wrapped in good classic playstyles.
"Don't design an MMO around the assumption that players are a "type" of gamer. I often hear developers discussing whether an individual is a roleplayer, or a PvP player, or a solo player. Our belief is that while you can certainly find players who exclusively fall into one category, most players dabble in everything. It is tempting to believe that because a player is playing an MMO, and because good MMOs are social games, every player must therefore like to play with other players in a group. Our experience with Guild Wars is that this is an erroneous and dangerous assumption. On any given day, a player may want to play with his guild, or he may want to play with his best friend, or he may want to play alone. The fact that he is playing in a large communal environment is not a predictor of how he wants to play. We should be striving to make games that let you play how you want to play right now, and offer you the flexibility to progress with any combination of players you like.
Don't underestimate the importance of solo play! Sometimes your friends aren't online, sometimes you want to kill 30 minutes while everyone groups together, and sometimes you just don't want to go to committee on every damn decision. The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience. A few months before the release of Guild Wars we added computer-controlled henchmen to the game as a way to pad out your party when your friends weren't around. Later we enhanced this feature and introduced computer-controlled Heroes, which gave you control over their actions and more fully supported the notion of playing the game entirely on your own. While it may seem counterintuitive to add features that support the solo play experience into an MMO, we believe that Guild Warswould not have been as successful had we not added these features."
http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php
EXACTLY.
Why is this a debate BETWEEN solo and group play? That is completely missing the point. I love grouping, BUT....not every damn day. I'm not always in the mood to group. Sometimes I just want to play with my real life partner and go off and just the two of us conquer something. Some days we raid with loads of people.
In my opinion, games are FAILING if they don't succeed in giving the player the OPTION to play in ALL these ways. I'm not a robot that feels the same way every day and always predictably wants to do the same thing, thank you very much.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I understand your points but what tends to happen with making both work at the same time is that 90% of the people will go with the path of least resistance.
If its easier to get things in a group, soloers complain about forced grouping. If its easier to get things solo then...People who like grouping will most likely be forced to not group then were all at where we started on forced grouping vs forced soloing.
Now if it were a co op game, grouping tends to have better benefits I think.. For example, rare drops are easier if youre in a full group in Borderlands. Most people dont see that as forced grouping but in an mmorpg, people WILL consider that forced grouping.
Now if you were to make different sets of equipment for groups and soloing (the same way that pvp and pve gear is divided) then maybe it can work. For example
Gear you get from soloing = more in the middle (dps chars get less dps and more survivability, tank chars get less survivability and more damage, etc) that would make you a better soloer.
Gear from grouping = more focused and specialized gear that would make you better for groups
gear from pvp = things like the pvp resistance thingies in wow? idk lol
Because from what I noticed, grouping and soloing tend to compete with each other instead of making them a completely different ballpark.
Basically
Stop making soloing and grouping mutually exclusive!!!
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Are you responding to me?
Kinda I guess o.o
You and the other person brought up that they should be as important as each other so I decided to just add something that would hopefully make it better o.o
Everyone is interested in getting their rewards. So why not seperate grouping and soloing rewards so that theyre put in different stances instead of being forced to choose either?
That way instead of having the game go
PVE - solo/group
PVP
Itll end up with
Solo PVE
Group PVE
PVP
With that, people wont really be forced to solo or group and itll be fully a choice. No more fighting over "Oh grouping gets better rewards" or "Soloers can get this too so why bother grouping" yknoe?
Basically..at least this way, when you feel like soloing you can work on that and get things more suited for soloing or you can group and get stuff more suited for groupiinggg!
Im not really against soloing per se...but Just about all the games I tried was either forced soloing or forced grouping. Instead of having a mix of both.
City of heroes did okwhere you can solo or group and I thoguht that was a great idea. You can solo when you wanted and group when you wanted without being severely..gimped
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I understand what you were saying, Castille. I just want developers to do whatever it takes to give us the most OPTIONS in a game while making all those options equally good. Yes....I'm asking for a lot.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Well the main problem here actually is that the developers tend to cram solo content in the levelling phase and give minamal grouping. but then at end game they do a 180 and give group content (although repetetive -.-) and the solo content pretty much wears out unless its for...say...making money o.O
They can balance it out in the beginning by giving the option of group progression and solo progression.
The main problem of this is that the lack of content will be severely highlighted...But hey! they made pvp from level 1 to max level work they should be able to make solo to max level and group to max level work o.O
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I don't think you are understanding what Jeff Strain said. Traditional MMO mechanics for solo play and group play go as this:
Solo: Quests, Mob grinding.
Group: Dungeons, PvP, Raids. Anything that you can do solo is easy and pointless with a group.
To get an idea of what Jeff Strain was saying watch this video:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
The DEs in GW2 implement an AI that automatically scales the event to the amount of players that are participating in it. The players' level are also scaled down to the level of the event if they are too high so they can't grief lower level players and they can also enjoy the content.
This AI allows most events to be soloed and all of them to done with a group (with or wothout actually being in a group).
I didnt actually watch that o.O Ill edit this post later when I do watch that o.o My reply was generally in the making soloing viable n stuff o.o
Edit : As for scaling the event to players and levels, City of Heroes already had that ages ago with their invasions xD They were pretty fun except it seemed wayyy tooo zergey...not complaining though!
Edit 2 : After seeing this event thingie it really seems a lot like city of heroes invations in a way except larger scale I guess o.o My main problem with this is with the enemeis... IT sounds good but Im not sure if it will be an aoe heavy game (like city of heroes) or if it will have boss spawns as well...Im leaning towards aoe heavy since I heard that there are no healers in this game o.o
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I wasn't aware that we were specifically talking about GW2, but I do think I will like their implementation of varied styles of play and I love the side-kick feature and scaling. I quoted something about GW2 earlier, but I was really just talking about MMOs over all.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I'm not specifically talking about GW2, I was just using the DEs as an example because the AI that was implemented allows any solo content to also be group content.
It actually sounds nice...but yah! o.o I wonder how the bosses will go though...Im half expecting it to be more or less action game style (dodging and no standing around tanking) instead of more trinity focused o.o Oh wells...TIme will tell o.O
But yah! I agree with catering to both solo and grouping at the same time like that!
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Ah....gotcha.
Thanks for the clarification. I get a bit confused sometimes when I'm reading multiple threads too, so it's probably partly just me. heh
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I personally prefer group play for sure. I have much more fun in EQ grinding out levels than I do in WoW
I think that group play should be a faster path to advancement than solo play but I also think that you should be able to play solo if you really want to.
This is something I agree with and don't understand why it isn't done. Endgames tend not to support solo playstyles, they go from easily solo leveling to a bait-and-switch at cap to group or die. If groups would get normal experience and soloers would get a smaller percentage of experience then not only would you foster grouping early on even for leveling but it would also artificially prolong the leveling content for soloers as there's nothing at endgame for them anyway (in most games- that is aside from achievements/titles/collections etc). Win/win.
Id rather pick group play because solo play is like BORING!!! MMORPG??????????????
If I have a static group of friends I enjoy grouping. Outside of that, generally I don’t care for it. Raiding I absolutely do not enjoy no matter how cool the mobs or dungeons look in any game. I have no desire to share that content due the negative experiences that come with it (people).
Perhaps I’m a person with little patience but waiting on others, repeating the same fight 400 times until people follow directions, in considerate behavior, the drama, the whining and chillness’, is such a big turn off I just can’t subject myself to that. I gave it a few tries and different games did get items for the time investment but the value I put in, my reward was not worth all that negative experience to receive it.
Solo and occasional group content (to break it up a bit) is most appealing to me. While Raiding and investing a life and a half to get a simple objective finished for an item may be appealing to some, it’s not me. Long as my gear allows me to enjoy the content I seek, (mostly solo) then I have no complaints.
However when you toss PVP in to the mix combined with different tiers of gear this doesn’t allow the solo or occasional grouper to enjoy it. I haven’t played all the games out there but something consistent I’ve found is PVP rewards are generally not equal. End result the raider’s rain supreme with the gear advantage.
I haven’t played a MMO in two years, I was pretty hard core between 2003-2009 but I was tired of the limitations in PVP. I’ve had all the best 5man content gear to the best PVP reward stuff in different games, with that generally speaking it sucks to get 1-2 shot by some raider pimped out.
Looking in to it more in-depth some games the time requirement to grind PVP rewards is much more involved and time consuming vs. raid content (of course this is circumstantial given the quality of team work) but over all that’s pretty consistent throughout.
What kept me going the last couple years in mmos was 5-boxing. Then I enjoyed grouping, a lot. In fact that’s all I ever did, and PVP. Granted I only had 5man gear but the focus fire in PVP was nasty. I grew tired of it however. Being strong like that is a bit lack luster, cool at first but it’s not fun unless its 5v5 or more. Something else most don’t consider is the value of an individual character.
You level, work and customize your character. Your achievements feel pretty rewarding. When you have 5, the individuality is taken away and while you may be getting upgrades the wealth or value of receiving it isn’t near as rewarding, more or less just a chore because you have so many.
I would like to resume playing MMOs again but I’m patiently waiting for game with a system that keeps the solo vs. raider content in PVP in mind along with consistent rewards across the board for the time investment.
To clarify Solo and small groupers don’t require or need Raider gear for the content they seek, least I’m content with that as a solo player. However PVP on the other hand must reflect this and allow it to be even across the board. If not that, least reward PVP players appropriately and evenly with reward and time investment.
Perhaps group and raid play would be more rewarding if you were in good company, sure many have one right now. But the bridge is burnt down for me in trying that route again. Here’s hoping one day more thought and the reasons behind the style of play is chosen and a happy medium is achieved for all.
In closing, there are quite a few games I haven’t tried. Perhaps this does exists, but without a free trail I won’t touch that game. I don’t reward failed mmos with $50; I reward them for a solid game after I test drive it.
MMOs should be a social type of thing. If all you want to do is solo, why not play a single player game?
On the other hand, i hate raids too. Too much waiting and dealing with stupid people. Its ok if you only have them occasionally, or they are optional, like in DAoC, you could go on a dragon raid, or if you dont want to do that, you can buy the items that other people got from the raid.
The problem is BOP and BOE. In daoc the raiders could actually trade or sell the gear they got from raids. This gives you an alternative to raiding. You can just go solo mobs all day until you have enough gold to buy what you need. Or you can go on a raid and get an item that has no use to you, but is desired by someone else, and then trade it for the item you want, or sell it to get money to buy the item.
BoP and BoE are the devil, spread the word!
You know what was cool about DaoC? Say im in galladoria, and a sweet 2h weapon drops, i can put it on to see how it looks, maybe whack a few mobs with it, to test a proc rate or whatever, and then take it off and give it to someone else.
This whole WoW model that everyone follows just turns everyone into a BAAAAAA sheep.
Group play all the way for me. Why? Because I don't like playing alone, and in my view MMORPG's are supposed to be group based. It gives a different feeling when you have to rely on others/friends to fulfill your progresss while also being an important part of your group and actually making a difference in other people's gameplay. Isn't that what an online game is all about anyway? To me it's sort of pointless to be in the same world as everyone when each goes their own way and does their own stuff. I have played games where grouping was a must-have for nearly everything and they were uncomparably more fun to me than other solo-based games. Yes, I know most 'solo' games you have an option to 'group', but what's the point of it if I'm spending most of my time alone, or could be getting nearly the same things alone? To me, the 'must-have' group factor is a lot more fun than the 'solo-up or group up' proposition. One of the most important parts of an MMO should be the community factor, some games might even suck but you'll still be playing it when you have a large group of friends or people to talk to or do things toguether. It sort of forces people to develop their social skills and interact with eachother, gives clans much more of a meaning, and actually gives more of a difficulty and less boring factor to the game itself. Could be just me, but I really like looking at my achievements (either gear, status, levels, skills etc) and thinking back all the good and bad times where me and my party were hunting for it, who and when messed up when they shouldn't, or that lucky drop we all shared back then.
So to sum it up, there should be solo choices, but the grand majority of worthwhile content and progression should be related to groups instead. To me there's not much point playing alone and I quickly get bored of an online game if there's no friends or people to talk to online, no matter how good it is. I have been into games where you would need constant parties for leveling, raiding, farming and mass PVP. But again, some of them aren't that popular anymore because the people's mentality has changed over the years into solo/easier playing, and I find it hard to imagine a game like this to be released in today's age. Shame
I think that grouping is fine I just think that groups should be smaller. Raids should be no more than 5 people. If you are going to have huge raids than the instance should scale so you could go in with 5 people but the loot will not be as good as 25 man. I think that everyone should be able to experience the content.
I also think that if soloing is your thing the game should allow you to. Everyone pays their $15 a month why not make the game so everyone can play the way they want to. If everything scaled to the number of people in your group it would solve a bunch of issues.
I agree with you that raids should be smaller in size, but I disagree that the loot should be inferior. If you make the difficulty scale the same between 5 and 25 players then the loot should be the same. The drop rate should increase if you decide to bring more people, but the quality of item should always be static.
Grouping should be the primary focus of a Massive Multiplayer Game, but I think we need an emphasis on smaller group content now. Games like WoW, in my opinion, do it all wrong. They emphasize and reward solo play all the way until end game, and only then does grouping take precedent. I think it cheats the new player of a great experience in teamwork, and lengthens the learning curve once they finally make it to end game dungeon and raid content.
On the flip side of that coin, I think it also lowers the barrier of entry for prospective players to join an MMO, so maybe it's not all bad.
I was gonna spew my old phogey rant about the current mindset of new gamers and the designers who cater to them, but whats the use. MMORPGS are a joke nowadays. If someone wants to do things by themselves why does anyone else care. I dont know or hear of many games that let a solo player advance as far in gear/loot as those who raid/pvp anyhow so who cares. After all these years, designers are too lazy and cheap to include varieties of gameplay? As for forcing socialization on people... are you kidding me? Half these players have no lives no jobs no friends, you want to force others to interact with these types of people lol. Oh gee sorry, im a hard arse who gets home and wants to relax by dealing with some man child who has been sitting at his pc all afternoon doing the same thing over and over and reading guides on how to be better at a game. hurray!
/end rant