If something will only be done for the reward...doesn't that suggest that you should work to make it fun instead of having to give people something for doing it?
How does it "ruin" anything if you can group to do it or I can do it solo. You get to do it your way and I get to do it mine. You get what you like and I get what I like.
There's too much "if someone else gets something then that hurts me!" mentality in MMOs.
Well that is beautiful ideas. Most players play to get something though. Some want achievemnt titles, some mounts, some gear, even those who don't care that much still want to "develop" their characters further, make them stronger ,etc
If you have same rewards for solo content and same for group , almost everyone do solo version of content becasue it is faster and they dont have to wait for group. Then result is that people run though solo content to level cap as fast as they can so they can do group content (instances ,raids). So what you want is already there in WoW , Lotro and some other themepark games.
Unless you want solo dungeons and raids as well.
Concluding - if for spending more time , taking burden to organize, lead , explaining, repeating because someone from group make group wipe, etc meaning doing all things you need to do in group you dont get BETTER rewards than doing it solo (which is faster ,easier ,etc) noone will do group content. Simple as that. That are facts already proven by many mmo's out there. Imho more effort = better rewards, less effort = worse rewards. Unless you think difffrently.
@Thebigchin11 - sure, I dont have nothing against beign able to level cap solo. I myself frequently just want to solo or I cannot group for lack of time or other reasons. I jsut want mmo I play have ALSO some separate group content which have bit better "rewards" than solo one.
Well games should have alot of solo and group content. So those who want solo can solo and those who want group can group as well. Group quests, etc shoudl have better rewards because if not noone will do them. That's a fact.
Nowadays new MMO's have almost exclusively solo content only (apart from dungeons and raids) and this solo content is usually also stupidly I would even say insultingly easy. Too easy.
What I don't like is when in a game there is some grup content , solo players start QQ that they want group quests "soloized" so they can do them too, even if they can aquire enough xp by doing solo quests/ content. I really dont understand that. It is ruining game for those who want to have some group only content.
If something will only be done for the reward...doesn't that suggest that you should work to make it fun instead of having to give people something for doing it?
How does it "ruin" anything if you can group to do it or I can do it solo. You get to do it your way and I get to do it mine. You get what you like and I get what I like.
There's too much "if someone else gets something then that hurts me!" mentality in MMOs.
...because if someone else gets something then it does hurt you, especially if there's PVP. duh
If something will only be done for the reward...doesn't that suggest that you should work to make it fun instead of having to give people something for doing it?
How does it "ruin" anything if you can group to do it or I can do it solo. You get to do it your way and I get to do it mine. You get what you like and I get what I like.
There's too much "if someone else gets something then that hurts me!" mentality in MMOs.
Well that is beautiful ideas. Most players play to get something though. Some want achievemnt titles, some mounts, some gear, even those who don't care that much still want to "develop" their characters further, make them stronger ,etc
If you have same rewards for solo content and same for group , almost everyone do solo version of content becasue it is faster and they dont have to wait for group. Then result is that people run though solo content to level cap as fast as they can so they can do group content (instances ,raids). So what you want is already there in WoW , Lotro and some other themepark games.
Unless you want solo dungeons and raids as well.
Concluding - if for spending more time , taking burden to organize, lead , explaining, repeating because someone from group make group wipe, etc meaning doing all things you need to do in group you dont get BETTER rewards than doing it solo (which is faster ,easier ,etc) noone will do group content. Simple as that. That are facts already proven by many mmo's out there. Imho more effort = better rewards, less effort = worse rewards. Unless you think difffrently.
@Thebigchin11 - sure, I dont have nothing against beign able to level cap solo. I myself frequently just want to solo or I cannot group for lack of time or other reasons. I jsut want mmo I play have ALSO some separate group content which have bit better "rewards" than solo one.
And there comes the difference between players. I don't pay games to "make an effort" or "acheive". I play games to screw around and have fun, if I want to work and achieve I'll do it in the real world where it actually means something.
If something will only be done for the reward...doesn't that suggest that you should work to make it fun instead of having to give people something for doing it?
How does it "ruin" anything if you can group to do it or I can do it solo. You get to do it your way and I get to do it mine. You get what you like and I get what I like.
There's too much "if someone else gets something then that hurts me!" mentality in MMOs.
Well that is beautiful ideas. Most players play to get something though. Some want achievemnt titles, some mounts, some gear, even those who don't care that much still want to "develop" their characters further, make them stronger ,etc
If you have same rewards for solo content and same for group , almost everyone do solo version of content becasue it is faster and they dont have to wait for group. Then result is that people run though solo content to level cap as fast as they can so they can do group content (instances ,raids). So what you want is already there in WoW , Lotro and some other themepark games.
Unless you want solo dungeons and raids as well.
Concluding - if for spending more time , taking burden to organize, lead , explaining, repeating because someone from group make group wipe, etc meaning doing all things you need to do in group you dont get BETTER rewards than doing it solo (which is faster ,easier ,etc) noone will do group content. Simple as that. That are facts already proven by many mmo's out there. Imho more effort = better rewards, less effort = worse rewards. Unless you think difffrently.
@Thebigchin11 - sure, I dont have nothing against beign able to level cap solo. I myself frequently just want to solo or I cannot group for lack of time or other reasons. I jsut want mmo I play have ALSO some separate group content which have bit better "rewards" than solo one.
And there comes the difference between players. I don't pay games to "make an effort" or "acheive". I play games to screw around and have fun, if I want to work and achieve I'll do it in the real world where it actually means something.
Well don't make it personal please. I am not talking if "achieving" something on computer game is meaningful or not. I believe that is not what we should talk about. Let's talk about facts. Most players in mmorpg's make their decision based on what they can "get" , "achieve" ,etc by doing certain things. Just becasue you personally don't play like that does not change that most do.
Besides if you don't care about achieving anything than why you seem to be against about group content having better "rewards" than solo one? You said you don't care and just want to "screw around and have fun."
If something will only be done for the reward...doesn't that suggest that you should work to make it fun instead of having to give people something for doing it?
How does it "ruin" anything if you can group to do it or I can do it solo. You get to do it your way and I get to do it mine. You get what you like and I get what I like.
There's too much "if someone else gets something then that hurts me!" mentality in MMOs.
Well that is beautiful ideas. Most players play to get something though. Some want achievemnt titles, some mounts, some gear, even those who don't care that much still want to "develop" their characters further, make them stronger ,etc
If you have same rewards for solo content and same for group , almost everyone do solo version of content becasue it is faster and they dont have to wait for group. Then result is that people run though solo content to level cap as fast as they can so they can do group content (instances ,raids). So what you want is already there in WoW , Lotro and some other themepark games.
Unless you want solo dungeons and raids as well.
Concluding - if for spending more time , taking burden to organize, lead , explaining, repeating because someone from group make group wipe, etc meaning doing all things you need to do in group you dont get BETTER rewards than doing it solo (which is faster ,easier ,etc) noone will do group content. Simple as that. That are facts already proven by many mmo's out there. Imho more effort = better rewards, less effort = worse rewards. Unless you think difffrently.
@Thebigchin11 - sure, I dont have nothing against beign able to level cap solo. I myself frequently just want to solo or I cannot group for lack of time or other reasons. I jsut want mmo I play have ALSO some separate group content which have bit better "rewards" than solo one.
And there comes the difference between players. I don't pay games to "make an effort" or "acheive". I play games to screw around and have fun, if I want to work and achieve I'll do it in the real world where it actually means something.
Well don't make it personal please. I am not talking if "achieving" something on computer game is meaningful or not. I believe that is not what we should talk about. Let's talk about facts. Most players in mmorpg's make their decision based on what they can "get" , "achieve" ,etc by doing certain things. Just becasue you personally don't play like that does not change that most do.
Besides if you don't care about achieving anything than why you seem to be against about group content having better "rewards" than solo one? You said you don't care and just want to "screw around and have fun."
Part of having fun is having new things to do, and if it gets to the point where all there is to do is raid, then that's when I drop the game.
Personally, and I played about every MMO to date. And of course its only my opinion. I thing the original EQ did it best. If you wanted to solo then you picked a caster class that could snare/fear/kite or had a pet. They was kings of the outdoor zones. They was nothing though without a group in the dungeon zones. All the good gear and named mobs was mostly dungeons. Let me add it was 70-100 people camping in a dungeon not a instance with one group. Oh the chat conversations during the day of crowded dungeons...good times!. I played a warrior in EQ and I was very depended on groups but they was never hard to find. Worse case we gathered at the zonein of dungeons and kill mobs near the entrace for xp untill our named poped up to replace someone.
I was just thinking today when I was playing Rift that man there is alot abilities...in EQ I autoattacked, kicked or taunt. But at the same time tanking then was more complicated. Todays MMO you pull a entire room on you AE them to death and run to the next room. EQ in a typical group your puller would grab the mobs and try to seperate them by Feign Death, The warrior would tag the mob with a arrow to pull the mob to your group. Sometimes the Warrior would pull by tagging a mob and praying that the Mezzer could clean up his bad pulls and the group actually assisted and listen to Warrior target calls. Just seemed like the class setup back in 1999 was the perfect team play setup in a MMO. Seems like after WoW/EQ2 the Mezzer and puller vanished from MMO's. Everything is so bloated with quests, I rather sit in a lords room in Lguk grinding out the XP with friends or strangers killling PH's and Names in hopes for rare gear drops. You all know you miss consenting your corpse, looking for a teleport, needing a rez, raiding as a guild for epic quests and gear, sharing a dungeon with 100 other real people, getting trained on or training everyone else because your invis popped or you with left instead of right in Karnor Castle! Whats all that have in common? Multiple Player interaction!
The only other game I have had some enjoyment since EQ was WaR with meaningful PvP and perhaps City of Heroes with the character creation and group play. I have already grown bored with Rift. Perhaps ill raise my character from the dead in EQ! lol
WoW did it best until WoLK was released and since then it has steadily gone downhill to the point that after years of playing I finally cancelled my account like 600,000 other players have done before me. Their focus is way too much on PVE play now. PVP has become a joke both in world where ganking is minimal because everyone has 20 kevel 85;s and in BG's where weak players join battles just to get carried a few levels.
The game has become too easy to enjoy and nothing more than grind grind grind until the next patch which forces you to grind grind grind again. Blizzard has certainly lost it's way and what is worse other games are copying this mess by making their games easy constant grinds too just for the almighty buck. Where are the games for gamers? I'm beginning to think the whole industry is dying a slow death.
The game (World of Warcraft) has become too easy to enjoy and nothing more than grind grind grind until the next patch which forces you to grind grind grind again. Blizzard has certainly lost it's way and what is worse other games are copying this mess by making their games easy constant grinds too just for the almighty buck. Where are the games for gamers? I'm beginning to think the whole industry is dying a slow death.
Frankly I think the only hope Blizzard has of saving World of Warcraft is to do what so many others have suggested in the past. Offer a WoW version that stops at BC when the game was still fun to play. Perhaps building on that successful model or not. I would be willing to start from scratch if they did that at level 1.
Frankly I think the only hope Blizzard has of saving World of Warcraft is to do what so many others have suggested in the past. Offer a WoW version that stops at BC when the game was still fun to play. Perhaps building on that successful model or not. I would be willing to start from scratch if they did that at level 1.
I would only ever go back to Wow if they offered a PvE alternative to getting the same loot without having to raid to do so. I'm never getting on the raid-or-die treadmill again.
The game has become too easy to enjoy and nothing more than grind grind grind until the next patch which forces you to grind grind grind again. Blizzard has certainly lost it's way and what is worse other games are copying this mess by making their games easy constant grinds too just for the almighty buck. Where are the games for gamers? I'm beginning to think the whole industry is dying a slow death.
Gamers don't matter. There just aren't enough of them to pay the bills for these companies, therefore they don't make them for such a tiny market. The same is true of console games. Very few are actually targetted at "gamers", most are movie tie-ins and simple games aimed at the casual market, which is, by far, where the money is in the industry.
If they made games only for gamers, the industry would have been bankrupt years ago. It's the casuals that have kept it going this long, it's not going to change any time soon.
The game has become too easy to enjoy and nothing more than grind grind grind until the next patch which forces you to grind grind grind again. Blizzard has certainly lost it's way and what is worse other games are copying this mess by making their games easy constant grinds too just for the almighty buck. Where are the games for gamers? I'm beginning to think the whole industry is dying a slow death.
Gamers don't matter. There just aren't enough of them to pay the bills for these companies, therefore they don't make them for such a tiny market. The same is true of console games. Very few are actually targetted at "gamers", most are movie tie-ins and simple games aimed at the casual market, which is, by far, where the money is in the industry.
If they made games only for gamers, the industry would have been bankrupt years ago. It's the casuals that have kept it going this long, it's not going to change any time soon.
There is still hope. Besides, there is always something to be said for the underdog. Perhaps when the current generation grows out of the MMO market, the publishers and developers won't be making as much money, or perhaps because the market is so saturated, those companies will not be making as many games and things could go back to the way they were: as more of a niche market. Gamers still matter, and as long as there is a passion, there is a principle. As long as there is a principle, there is still hope.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well I don't expect all games to be "gamer" quality but maybe just one? For now I'm just going to stick with chess because every once in a while I can actually find someone who can play.
There is still hope. Besides, there is always something to be said for the underdog. Perhaps when the current generation grows out of the MMO market, the publishers and developers won't be making as much money, or perhaps because the market is so saturated, those companies will not be making as many games and things could go back to the way they were: as more of a niche market. Gamers still matter, and as long as there is a passion, there is a principle. As long as there is a principle, there is still hope.
I wouldn't hold my breath, I think that train has permanently left the station. Once you get mainstream success, you never want to go back to being a niche market. Most will simply move on to the next big thing. It's like saying you like Model-T's and you're hoping after people get done building all the new, modern cars, they'll go back to building Model-T's. Sorry, not going to happen.
There is still hope. Besides, there is always something to be said for the underdog. Perhaps when the current generation grows out of the MMO market, the publishers and developers won't be making as much money, or perhaps because the market is so saturated, those companies will not be making as many games and things could go back to the way they were: as more of a niche market. Gamers still matter, and as long as there is a passion, there is a principle. As long as there is a principle, there is still hope.
I wouldn't hold my breath, I think that train has permanently left the station. Once you get mainstream success, you never want to go back to being a niche market. Most will simply move on to the next big thing. It's like saying you like Model-T's and you're hoping after people get done building all the new, modern cars, they'll go back to building Model-T's. Sorry, not going to happen.
The problem with mainstream is you loose clients quickly if you don't constantly upgrade which means you never get to fix glitches and they keep piling up and the program keeps getting more complex and coputer requirements keep increasing. Eventually your game is a mess and only those with the best computers can play it so you end op becoming a niche anyway. I think playing to the biggest audience is very self destructive and we're seeing that happen to WoW with each passing month. A hard game keeps player interested a dumb games get boring so customers will float around constantly looking for something to hold their interest. I know a lot of gamer who are looking for something interesting to play right now and not having any luck finding it.
Frankly I think the only hope Blizzard has of saving World of Warcraft is to do what so many others have suggested in the past. Offer a WoW version that stops at BC when the game was still fun to play. Perhaps building on that successful model or not. I would be willing to start from scratch if they did that at level 1.
I would only ever go back to Wow if they offered a PvE alternative to getting the same loot without having to raid to do so. I'm never getting on the raid-or-die treadmill again.
This is my biggest sore point with WoW. There just isn't enough alternatives anymore. Back when raiding was only open to a fraction of the population (Vanilla and BC to a lesser extent), Blizzard had alternatives to obtaining gear. There were dungeon sets that were obtainable via 5 man instances, new daily factions introduced with nearly every major patch. Certain crafting professions could upgrade certain pieces for themselves. In BC, there wasn't such an emphasis on the next tier of raiding, if all you could do was 10 man raids, you sat in Kara. If you were still stuck in the previous tier of raiding when the next opened up, you kept on going instead of trying to skip ahead to the next tier.
While the game wasn't perfect, BC was more or less the golen era of WoW for me. I didn't hate WotLK like many did, but the amount of extra content aside from raids was limited, and even more so in Cataclysm.
Almost all of the mmos I have played you come to a point where your fun is limited to your ability to find groups. WoW endgame, DAoC (early years for leveling and PvP), and pretty much the "endgame" of many mmos requires grouping. I enjoy grouping, but I also work graveyard shift, so I'm not always available when there are a lot of other people on.
ANet seems to be onto something with their system of "grouping" though. You can run around solo and do dynamic events, your efforts are combined with those around you in the same event regardless of a formal grouping. You can also form formal groups and run dungeons, in two different modes, or you can also form groups and take on dynamic events that are above what your average level is for more of a challenge. There seems to be some importance placed on crafting, and there's plenty of other things to do, like the mini-games.
There is still hope. Besides, there is always something to be said for the underdog. Perhaps when the current generation grows out of the MMO market, the publishers and developers won't be making as much money, or perhaps because the market is so saturated, those companies will not be making as many games and things could go back to the way they were: as more of a niche market. Gamers still matter, and as long as there is a passion, there is a principle. As long as there is a principle, there is still hope.
I wouldn't hold my breath, I think that train has permanently left the station. Once you get mainstream success, you never want to go back to being a niche market. Most will simply move on to the next big thing. It's like saying you like Model-T's and you're hoping after people get done building all the new, modern cars, they'll go back to building Model-T's. Sorry, not going to happen.
Yeah, but people still restore old classic cars all the time. They don't do it to be efficient or to make money (well, not always), they do it because they love and respect the old cars. I don't see why that couldn't translate to online RPGs.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I think these gaming companies will have to do a bit worse financially before they wake up. WoW is heading in that direction quickly and if they keep losing clients at the rate they have been this year we might end up seeing a major shake up there or perhaps even a start up game that gets it.
If the anecdotal evidence presented here is close to being factual (particularly #4) then I don't know that we'll see a return to the true old school games, but we will definitely get out of some of the rut we're currently in. I also agree that it will take more hyped games winding up duds before it happens but you can't keep spoonfeeding the same boring crap game after game and expect people to keep buying.
The problem with mainstream is you loose clients quickly if you don't constantly upgrade which means you never get to fix glitches and they keep piling up and the program keeps getting more complex and coputer requirements keep increasing. Eventually your game is a mess and only those with the best computers can play it so you end op becoming a niche anyway. I think playing to the biggest audience is very self destructive and we're seeing that happen to WoW with each passing month. A hard game keeps player interested a dumb games get boring so customers will float around constantly looking for something to hold their interest. I know a lot of gamer who are looking for something interesting to play right now and not having any luck finding it.
That hasn't happened with WoW, it still runs on most computers and it still has many, many millions of players. Being mainstream, it can afford to lose 90% of it's playerbase and still have more people playing than any niche game. Personally, I don't play anything because I can't stand the games out there right now, but I recognize that I don't matter, I am not hte market for the majority of MMOs. The market goes where the money is. Hard games simply isn't where it's at.
There is still hope. Besides, there is always something to be said for the underdog. Perhaps when the current generation grows out of the MMO market, the publishers and developers won't be making as much money, or perhaps because the market is so saturated, those companies will not be making as many games and things could go back to the way they were: as more of a niche market. Gamers still matter, and as long as there is a passion, there is a principle. As long as there is a principle, there is still hope.
I wouldn't hold my breath, I think that train has permanently left the station. Once you get mainstream success, you never want to go back to being a niche market. Most will simply move on to the next big thing. It's like saying you like Model-T's and you're hoping after people get done building all the new, modern cars, they'll go back to building Model-T's. Sorry, not going to happen.
Yeah, but people still restore old classic cars all the time. They don't do it to be efficient or to make money (well, not always), they do it because they love and respect the old cars. I don't see why that couldn't translate to online RPGs.
Let me know when it actually does and it's successful. Unlike an individual restoring a classic car, it doesn't require the financial support of thousands of people to keep it going day after day. That puts them in entirely different categories. Even if someone did put up a classic MMO, the chances that it would garner enough player support to make it financially worthwhile is slim to none.
The biggest problem with grouping in MMOs is that it's all "Organized Fun". Instead of hanfing out in the yard and throwing a ball around, everyone has to be on a formal "play date" where all the activities are scheduled and organized and everyone has a job to do.
This isn't about sandbox vs Theme park, though, even though some of the terminology may sound the same.
Grouping "fun" in MMOs tends to be like trying to put together a formal little league team...you have schedules, tryouts, practices and games. While that has its place, there's also a place for "Hey, let's go @#$$ around in Jimmy's driveway. I got some smoke and We can throw a ball at the hoop." And there just isn't enough of that type of thing in MMOs where people can just relax, socialize and enjoy themselves. Everything is so much "MOAR DOTS!!!111!!!!" and whatnot that it's really not any more fun than going to work for 8 hours.
The biggest problem with grouping in MMOs is that it's all "Organized Fun". Instead of hanfing out in the yard and throwing a ball around, everyone has to be on a formal "play date" where all the activities are scheduled and organized and everyone has a job to do.
This isn't about sandbox vs Theme park, though, even though some of the terminology may sound the same.
Grouping "fun" in MMOs tends to be like trying to put together a formal little league team...you have schedules, tryouts, practices and games. While that has its place, there's also a place for "Hey, let's go @#$$ around in Jimmy's driveway. I got some smoke and We can throw a ball at the hoop." And there just isn't enough of that type of thing in MMOs where people can just relax, socialize and enjoy themselves. Everything is so much "MOAR DOTS!!!111!!!!" and whatnot that it's really not any more fun than going to work for 8 hours.
Ahhh hanging out with my friends in a Cantina half the day in SWG... so much more fun than trying to organize 3 Kara groups in Wow for 5 months straight. I completely agree...
Ahhh hanging out with my friends in a Cantina half the day in SWG... so much more fun than trying to organize 3 Kara groups in Wow for 5 months straight. I completely agree...
I think this sort of game play is going to be on its way back in shortly, and if MMO companies don't want to lose a large percentage of their playerbase, they'll nix the formalized group requirements for the vast majority of their content and not require it to get the best gear. For a little while, I was starting to think the solo gamer was on the way out the door, but now I realize we have a lot of power. Not power in numbers, that's not enough unless we articulate why we enjoy what we enjoy and why we won't pay for what we don't enjoy.
The recent thread about why doesn't anyone like raiding anymore really woke me up to the truth. We are the majority, we can and will speak out for what we want, and we can and will leave games that don't give us what we want. No formalized organization required. And even though we can't tear up a game like big guilds can (griefing others, coming and going in droves, throwing our weight around and in general being pissy little brats) we do have the power to put a hurting on game companies who ignore our wants.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
If the anecdotal evidence presented here is close to being factual (particularly #4) then I don't know that we'll see a return to the true old school games, but we will definitely get out of some of the rut we're currently in. I also agree that it will take more hyped games winding up duds before it happens but you can't keep spoonfeeding the same boring crap game after game and expect people to keep buying.
Thinking that WoW can afford to lose 90% of it's players is naive at best. The percentage of players they have reported to have lost since the release of Cata would be significant to any company and especially one that cost it's most recent owners so much to aquire. This drop in customer percentage can not be so easily explained because of a declining economy. As addictive as these games are designed to be and as low cost as they are WoW's board of directors is getting the clear message that even with consistent new content their customers are not pleased with the direction they have chosen to take. This is not some little mom and pop store on the street corner,. WoW's profits represent millions of dollars every month and those who create content and gameplay have stockholders to answer to who will not be impressed with the current 10% loss in profits and they won't be more impressed if that number continues to drop. One of 2 things must eventually occur. Either someone at or near the top will be held responsible and will lose their job or the game might find itself for sale on the open market as a liability. Contrary to common belief a 10% loss of profits is quite significant to a company large enough to have several hands in the candy bowl. WoW has huge overhead. Given that any downsizing of the compamy would contribute to the further downfall of the game itself I don't feel that would be a reasonable solution. I think programmers and developers at WoW might be wise to start putting together their resumes just in case the numbers drop much more. New blood is often considered in such situations.
Comments
Well that is beautiful ideas. Most players play to get something though. Some want achievemnt titles, some mounts, some gear, even those who don't care that much still want to "develop" their characters further, make them stronger ,etc
If you have same rewards for solo content and same for group , almost everyone do solo version of content becasue it is faster and they dont have to wait for group. Then result is that people run though solo content to level cap as fast as they can so they can do group content (instances ,raids). So what you want is already there in WoW , Lotro and some other themepark games.
Unless you want solo dungeons and raids as well.
Concluding - if for spending more time , taking burden to organize, lead , explaining, repeating because someone from group make group wipe, etc meaning doing all things you need to do in group you dont get BETTER rewards than doing it solo (which is faster ,easier ,etc) noone will do group content. Simple as that. That are facts already proven by many mmo's out there. Imho more effort = better rewards, less effort = worse rewards. Unless you think difffrently.
@Thebigchin11 - sure, I dont have nothing against beign able to level cap solo. I myself frequently just want to solo or I cannot group for lack of time or other reasons. I jsut want mmo I play have ALSO some separate group content which have bit better "rewards" than solo one.
...because if someone else gets something then it does hurt you, especially if there's PVP. duh
And there comes the difference between players. I don't pay games to "make an effort" or "acheive". I play games to screw around and have fun, if I want to work and achieve I'll do it in the real world where it actually means something.
Well don't make it personal please. I am not talking if "achieving" something on computer game is meaningful or not. I believe that is not what we should talk about. Let's talk about facts. Most players in mmorpg's make their decision based on what they can "get" , "achieve" ,etc by doing certain things. Just becasue you personally don't play like that does not change that most do.
Besides if you don't care about achieving anything than why you seem to be against about group content having better "rewards" than solo one? You said you don't care and just want to "screw around and have fun."
Part of having fun is having new things to do, and if it gets to the point where all there is to do is raid, then that's when I drop the game.
Personally, and I played about every MMO to date. And of course its only my opinion. I thing the original EQ did it best. If you wanted to solo then you picked a caster class that could snare/fear/kite or had a pet. They was kings of the outdoor zones. They was nothing though without a group in the dungeon zones. All the good gear and named mobs was mostly dungeons. Let me add it was 70-100 people camping in a dungeon not a instance with one group. Oh the chat conversations during the day of crowded dungeons...good times!. I played a warrior in EQ and I was very depended on groups but they was never hard to find. Worse case we gathered at the zonein of dungeons and kill mobs near the entrace for xp untill our named poped up to replace someone.
I was just thinking today when I was playing Rift that man there is alot abilities...in EQ I autoattacked, kicked or taunt. But at the same time tanking then was more complicated. Todays MMO you pull a entire room on you AE them to death and run to the next room. EQ in a typical group your puller would grab the mobs and try to seperate them by Feign Death, The warrior would tag the mob with a arrow to pull the mob to your group. Sometimes the Warrior would pull by tagging a mob and praying that the Mezzer could clean up his bad pulls and the group actually assisted and listen to Warrior target calls. Just seemed like the class setup back in 1999 was the perfect team play setup in a MMO. Seems like after WoW/EQ2 the Mezzer and puller vanished from MMO's. Everything is so bloated with quests, I rather sit in a lords room in Lguk grinding out the XP with friends or strangers killling PH's and Names in hopes for rare gear drops. You all know you miss consenting your corpse, looking for a teleport, needing a rez, raiding as a guild for epic quests and gear, sharing a dungeon with 100 other real people, getting trained on or training everyone else because your invis popped or you with left instead of right in Karnor Castle! Whats all that have in common? Multiple Player interaction!
The only other game I have had some enjoyment since EQ was WaR with meaningful PvP and perhaps City of Heroes with the character creation and group play. I have already grown bored with Rift. Perhaps ill raise my character from the dead in EQ! lol
WoW did it best until WoLK was released and since then it has steadily gone downhill to the point that after years of playing I finally cancelled my account like 600,000 other players have done before me. Their focus is way too much on PVE play now. PVP has become a joke both in world where ganking is minimal because everyone has 20 kevel 85;s and in BG's where weak players join battles just to get carried a few levels.
The game has become too easy to enjoy and nothing more than grind grind grind until the next patch which forces you to grind grind grind again. Blizzard has certainly lost it's way and what is worse other games are copying this mess by making their games easy constant grinds too just for the almighty buck. Where are the games for gamers? I'm beginning to think the whole industry is dying a slow death.
I agree 100%
Frankly I think the only hope Blizzard has of saving World of Warcraft is to do what so many others have suggested in the past. Offer a WoW version that stops at BC when the game was still fun to play. Perhaps building on that successful model or not. I would be willing to start from scratch if they did that at level 1.
I would only ever go back to Wow if they offered a PvE alternative to getting the same loot without having to raid to do so. I'm never getting on the raid-or-die treadmill again.
Gamers don't matter. There just aren't enough of them to pay the bills for these companies, therefore they don't make them for such a tiny market. The same is true of console games. Very few are actually targetted at "gamers", most are movie tie-ins and simple games aimed at the casual market, which is, by far, where the money is in the industry.
If they made games only for gamers, the industry would have been bankrupt years ago. It's the casuals that have kept it going this long, it's not going to change any time soon.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
There is still hope. Besides, there is always something to be said for the underdog. Perhaps when the current generation grows out of the MMO market, the publishers and developers won't be making as much money, or perhaps because the market is so saturated, those companies will not be making as many games and things could go back to the way they were: as more of a niche market. Gamers still matter, and as long as there is a passion, there is a principle. As long as there is a principle, there is still hope.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well I don't expect all games to be "gamer" quality but maybe just one? For now I'm just going to stick with chess because every once in a while I can actually find someone who can play.
I wouldn't hold my breath, I think that train has permanently left the station. Once you get mainstream success, you never want to go back to being a niche market. Most will simply move on to the next big thing. It's like saying you like Model-T's and you're hoping after people get done building all the new, modern cars, they'll go back to building Model-T's. Sorry, not going to happen.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The problem with mainstream is you loose clients quickly if you don't constantly upgrade which means you never get to fix glitches and they keep piling up and the program keeps getting more complex and coputer requirements keep increasing. Eventually your game is a mess and only those with the best computers can play it so you end op becoming a niche anyway. I think playing to the biggest audience is very self destructive and we're seeing that happen to WoW with each passing month. A hard game keeps player interested a dumb games get boring so customers will float around constantly looking for something to hold their interest. I know a lot of gamer who are looking for something interesting to play right now and not having any luck finding it.
This is my biggest sore point with WoW. There just isn't enough alternatives anymore. Back when raiding was only open to a fraction of the population (Vanilla and BC to a lesser extent), Blizzard had alternatives to obtaining gear. There were dungeon sets that were obtainable via 5 man instances, new daily factions introduced with nearly every major patch. Certain crafting professions could upgrade certain pieces for themselves. In BC, there wasn't such an emphasis on the next tier of raiding, if all you could do was 10 man raids, you sat in Kara. If you were still stuck in the previous tier of raiding when the next opened up, you kept on going instead of trying to skip ahead to the next tier.
While the game wasn't perfect, BC was more or less the golen era of WoW for me. I didn't hate WotLK like many did, but the amount of extra content aside from raids was limited, and even more so in Cataclysm.
Almost all of the mmos I have played you come to a point where your fun is limited to your ability to find groups. WoW endgame, DAoC (early years for leveling and PvP), and pretty much the "endgame" of many mmos requires grouping. I enjoy grouping, but I also work graveyard shift, so I'm not always available when there are a lot of other people on.
ANet seems to be onto something with their system of "grouping" though. You can run around solo and do dynamic events, your efforts are combined with those around you in the same event regardless of a formal grouping. You can also form formal groups and run dungeons, in two different modes, or you can also form groups and take on dynamic events that are above what your average level is for more of a challenge. There seems to be some importance placed on crafting, and there's plenty of other things to do, like the mini-games.
Yeah, but people still restore old classic cars all the time. They don't do it to be efficient or to make money (well, not always), they do it because they love and respect the old cars. I don't see why that couldn't translate to online RPGs.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I think these gaming companies will have to do a bit worse financially before they wake up. WoW is heading in that direction quickly and if they keep losing clients at the rate they have been this year we might end up seeing a major shake up there or perhaps even a start up game that gets it.
If the anecdotal evidence presented here is close to being factual (particularly #4) then I don't know that we'll see a return to the true old school games, but we will definitely get out of some of the rut we're currently in. I also agree that it will take more hyped games winding up duds before it happens but you can't keep spoonfeeding the same boring crap game after game and expect people to keep buying.
That hasn't happened with WoW, it still runs on most computers and it still has many, many millions of players. Being mainstream, it can afford to lose 90% of it's playerbase and still have more people playing than any niche game. Personally, I don't play anything because I can't stand the games out there right now, but I recognize that I don't matter, I am not hte market for the majority of MMOs. The market goes where the money is. Hard games simply isn't where it's at.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Let me know when it actually does and it's successful. Unlike an individual restoring a classic car, it doesn't require the financial support of thousands of people to keep it going day after day. That puts them in entirely different categories. Even if someone did put up a classic MMO, the chances that it would garner enough player support to make it financially worthwhile is slim to none.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The biggest problem with grouping in MMOs is that it's all "Organized Fun". Instead of hanfing out in the yard and throwing a ball around, everyone has to be on a formal "play date" where all the activities are scheduled and organized and everyone has a job to do.
This isn't about sandbox vs Theme park, though, even though some of the terminology may sound the same.
Grouping "fun" in MMOs tends to be like trying to put together a formal little league team...you have schedules, tryouts, practices and games. While that has its place, there's also a place for "Hey, let's go @#$$ around in Jimmy's driveway. I got some smoke and We can throw a ball at the hoop." And there just isn't enough of that type of thing in MMOs where people can just relax, socialize and enjoy themselves. Everything is so much "MOAR DOTS!!!111!!!!" and whatnot that it's really not any more fun than going to work for 8 hours.
Ahhh hanging out with my friends in a Cantina half the day in SWG... so much more fun than trying to organize 3 Kara groups in Wow for 5 months straight. I completely agree...
No bitchers.
I think this sort of game play is going to be on its way back in shortly, and if MMO companies don't want to lose a large percentage of their playerbase, they'll nix the formalized group requirements for the vast majority of their content and not require it to get the best gear. For a little while, I was starting to think the solo gamer was on the way out the door, but now I realize we have a lot of power. Not power in numbers, that's not enough unless we articulate why we enjoy what we enjoy and why we won't pay for what we don't enjoy.
The recent thread about why doesn't anyone like raiding anymore really woke me up to the truth. We are the majority, we can and will speak out for what we want, and we can and will leave games that don't give us what we want. No formalized organization required. And even though we can't tear up a game like big guilds can (griefing others, coming and going in droves, throwing our weight around and in general being pissy little brats) we do have the power to put a hurting on game companies who ignore our wants.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Thinking that WoW can afford to lose 90% of it's players is naive at best. The percentage of players they have reported to have lost since the release of Cata would be significant to any company and especially one that cost it's most recent owners so much to aquire. This drop in customer percentage can not be so easily explained because of a declining economy. As addictive as these games are designed to be and as low cost as they are WoW's board of directors is getting the clear message that even with consistent new content their customers are not pleased with the direction they have chosen to take. This is not some little mom and pop store on the street corner,. WoW's profits represent millions of dollars every month and those who create content and gameplay have stockholders to answer to who will not be impressed with the current 10% loss in profits and they won't be more impressed if that number continues to drop. One of 2 things must eventually occur. Either someone at or near the top will be held responsible and will lose their job or the game might find itself for sale on the open market as a liability. Contrary to common belief a 10% loss of profits is quite significant to a company large enough to have several hands in the candy bowl. WoW has huge overhead. Given that any downsizing of the compamy would contribute to the further downfall of the game itself I don't feel that would be a reasonable solution. I think programmers and developers at WoW might be wise to start putting together their resumes just in case the numbers drop much more. New blood is often considered in such situations.