I really do believe the whole point of an MMO is to play with other people. In Single player games you aren't allowed to play with your friends, and thats why many people choose MMOs. Its still a form of social interaction, even tho you arent' actually seeing the person.
I agree its just nice to know if you want to log on one day and don't feel like needing a group you can ALWAYS have some meaningful way to progress your character.
Now its up to the developers to balance the gains from solo gameplay and group gameplay, which imo Group gameplay should have a strong lead on, however for those who want to play solo but interact in a living world with other people should have an option or two.
Getting people to agree on this would be extemely difficult if not lets say impossible but I think with some clever ideas we can find some sort of balance.
The problem starts when people who play solo claim that they should of have just as influential, strong whatever rewards as groups do.
Naturally the group players question the idea of having a group at all if they dont have any advantage, why work harder for the same gain?
In my humble opinon I believe that setting up a group towards a common goal is more difficult then solo play and thus should be rewarded more greatly. However content should be progressed for both playstyles equally, that way you atleast have something meaningful to do, if you choose not to group.
Alts are the not the answer, they are a band-aid, people love having the "main" and want to keep playing THAT character and seeing it grow as the time investment and attachment grow with it.
While I agree that not everyone should gain the same rewards, I disagree that their chosen playstyle should be the deciding factor for obtaining said rewards. Whether a player chooses PvP, group PvE, or solo PvE, they should be able to reach the highest level of effectiveness at their given playstyle. If rewards given for group PvE are more effective at solo PvE or PvP, the devs have effectively invalidated those playstyles.
MMO games need to continue to evolve to make better and better use of a large, persistently online population. RIFT has actually done a damn good job to offer content that promotes the gathering of unlimited amounts of players to work together on the same goal: zone events. This is only the beginning.
So any MMO discussion about group play vs solo play should arguably be replaced by Solo play vs. Party play vs. Raid Play vs. Mass play. Each of the four ways to play should offer different reward trees to encourage a variety of playstyle. Just like leveling up pvp levels gets you better armor for pvping, solo activity should give you a chance at rare drops of gear that make it easier to solo, dungeon loot tables should give gear that is specifically role enhancing, raid loot should be gear that is only better for raid boss progression, and Mass event loot should provide tokens that could be used towards the purchase of any of the gear types.
The great part is if this was properly implemented in a game your best raid geared players should have trouble soloing mobs in their raid gear. It would seem fair because if they never ground any solo content that would mean their character never learned how to fight alone.
I just tried out SWTOR for two weeks, then unsubbed. Instead of the step ahead from WoW in soloability that was hinted at, this game is a complete regression. At very low levels you run out of quests that aren't heroic, leaving the choice of either being forced into groups, or grinding low level mobs for tiny amounts of XP at a time.
Obviously the devs have no respect for solo players, nor do they even have a basic understanding of what they want.
I just tried out SWTOR for two weeks, then unsubbed. Instead of the step ahead from WoW in soloability that was hinted at, this game is a complete regression. At very low levels you run out of quests that aren't heroic, leaving the choice of either being forced into groups, or grinding low level mobs for tiny amounts of XP at a time.
Obviously the devs have no respect for solo players, nor do they even have a basic understanding of what they want.
Waiting for GW2 now.
You're kidding, right? Were we even playing the same game? It was the reverse of what you said, 90% of it was solo and you didn't even have to do the other 10% to progress. With the addition of companions and static mobs which came in 3's, there really was no difficulty to any part of that game that actually required you to group. If you found it hard to solo then.. seriously.. learn to play, as a child could solo its way through that game.
I just tried out SWTOR for two weeks, then unsubbed. Instead of the step ahead from WoW in soloability that was hinted at, this game is a complete regression. At very low levels you run out of quests that aren't heroic, leaving the choice of either being forced into groups, or grinding low level mobs for tiny amounts of XP at a time.
Obviously the devs have no respect for solo players, nor do they even have a basic understanding of what they want.
Waiting for GW2 now.
You're kidding, right? Were we even playing the same game? It was the reverse of what you said, 90% of it was solo and you didn't even have to do the other 10% to progress. With the addition of companions and static mobs which came in 3's, there really was no difficulty to any part of that game that actually required you to group. If you found it hard to solo then.. seriously.. learn to play, as a child could solo its way through that game.
With the addition of your companion the game was made a bit too soloable though. I've actually been a week without finding a group for anything that ISN'T the first instance 'cause everyone would much rather do their soloing than instance. It's a cool game, but honestly it shouldn't be an MMO. It feels too much like a single player game even to me, and I go out of my way to try to group up in any game. Plus I always found myself feeling that the side quests were not at all interesting and that I'd much rather play through my bounty hunter quest line, I'd much rather just play a single player game with half the game time if just to experience it on it's own.
I'll never understand why players are so crazy about soloing an MMO, many of them want to solo the entire game. It makes no sense to me, and I have heard all of the arguements over the years.
I've come to one conclusion, those players are SELFISH!!
None of thier arguements make any sense, they call them MMO's for a reason, otherwise they would be MSO's. These selfish players love to ruin games for personal reasons, I have seen them on forums complaining so much that devs cave in, only to have the same players leave anyway, becaues the game was too hard, and they couldnt get finish the whole game without help.
If you try to direct them to some awsome single player games out there, and there are LOTS of good ones, they scream and cry, not caring at all about other players.
Soloers are the scourge of MMO's and I cant stand them. Its no coincidence that most of these soloers are the same hardcore pvp crowd looking for ffa full loot, the rest of them are loners who like to grind pve mobs all by themselves... all day long.
I have to say that I was always going solo everywhere and always hated the online component of nearly every game (I only had fun at LAN parties many years ago with Quake 3 and UT) but TOR was the first MMORPG game where I somewhat enjoyed the company of other players incidentally as initially I was merely asking for their help in defeating my instance missions which I was unable to do myself.
And even though I am unsubbed from the game right now, I still have to thank it for bringing me in this late in the game, and I think this may be its biggest feat.
I just tried out SWTOR for two weeks, then unsubbed. Instead of the step ahead from WoW in soloability that was hinted at, this game is a complete regression. At very low levels you run out of quests that aren't heroic, leaving the choice of either being forced into groups, or grinding low level mobs for tiny amounts of XP at a time.
Obviously the devs have no respect for solo players, nor do they even have a basic understanding of what they want.
Waiting for GW2 now.
You're kidding, right? Were we even playing the same game? It was the reverse of what you said, 90% of it was solo and you didn't even have to do the other 10% to progress. With the addition of companions and static mobs which came in 3's, there really was no difficulty to any part of that game that actually required you to group. If you found it hard to solo then.. seriously.. learn to play, as a child could solo its way through that game.
Child's play eh? I had a lvl44 sith assassin and nearly 50% of that levelling came from me partying up with someone else to help me since I couldnt finish the missions myself no matter how good I was. Maybe I made wrong decisions from the outset with my character or did not outfit him with the right gear, but that's the way I managed to lvl him up. Of course I was feeling a bit guilty since in my instance other players were only getting points from me finishing my bonus missions and not the main missions themselves and thats why I think SWTOR is more SOLO than MP after all because there is not ENOUGH motivation for others to help you on your SP journey.
It encourages you to join other players and yet it doens't provide them enough incentive to do so - quite a contradiction if I ever saw any....
I'll never understand why players are so crazy about soloing an MMO, many of them want to solo the entire game. It makes no sense to me, and I have heard all of the arguements over the years.
I've come to one conclusion, those players are SELFISH!!
None of thier arguements make any sense, they call them MMO's for a reason, otherwise they would be MSO's. These selfish players love to ruin games for personal reasons, I have seen them on forums complaining so much that devs cave in, only to have the same players leave anyway, becaues the game was too hard, and they couldnt get finish the whole game without help.
If you try to direct them to some awsome single player games out there, and there are LOTS of good ones, they scream and cry, not caring at all about other players.
Soloers are the scourge of MMO's and I cant stand them. Its no coincidence that most of these soloers are the same hardcore pvp crowd looking for ffa full loot, the rest of them are loners who like to grind pve mobs all by themselves... all day long.
I wish they would go away!!!
That's some serious logic there.
Earth has over 4 billion people living on it. That's pretty massive don't you think? Do you think people do things on their own in real life? Or do you think they form raids to use the bathroom? One to hold the toilet paper... one to turn on the fan.. another support class to turn on the light... at least two to hold the newspaper and turn the pages...
Why exactly do you think MMO means anything about grouping?
I solo time to time. I've never wanted to be able to solo everything. I mean heck just because dragon slayers in folk lore pretty much were always solo.. and one of them was even a child... I don't think I should be able to solo dragons in a fantasy game where I am supposedly more heroic than in real life. Yet I don't really want to be in a group of 6 to 8 people... just to kill oh I dunno... rats or something else that is obviously dangerous... its not like a rabbit with giant fangs.. I could see grouping for that or at least a hand grenade of the holy type.
Even without my crystal ball I know I wouldn't group with you... just to be clear.
Earth has over 4 billion people living on it. That's pretty massive don't you think? Do you think people do things on their own in real life? Or do you think they form raids to use the bathroom? One to hold the toilet paper... one to turn on the fan.. another support class to turn on the light... at least two to hold the newspaper and turn the pages...
Why exactly do you think MMO means anything about grouping?
I solo time to time. I've never wanted to be able to solo everything. I mean heck just because dragon slayers in folk lore pretty much were always solo.. and one of them was even a child... I don't think I should be able to solo dragons in a fantasy game where I am supposedly more heroic than in real life. Yet I don't really want to be in a group of 6 to 8 people... just to kill oh I dunno... rats or something else that is obviously dangerous... its not like a rabbit with giant fangs.. I could see grouping for that or at least a hand grenade of the holy type.
Even without my crystal ball I know I wouldn't group with you... just to be clear.
Some seriously flawed reasoning there. Raids to use the bathroom? No, people do that on their own. We're talking about a game designed where the player can't do things on their own. For a better example from real life, people can't design and build a skyscraper on their own, or fight an army alone..
The whole "I'm a hero." thing in modern MMO's is entirely that, a creation of modern MMO's. If you were the hero there wouldn't be 1 million other heroes surrounding you, doing the exact same things that you do. That doesn't make you a hero, that makes you normal.
MMO's were born out of AD&D which had normal characters going through adventures and becoming stronger as they went. And they were always in a group. Why? Because without support that Dragon is simply going to bite your head off. Or what about trapped dungeons? One needs to stand in a magic circle while another needs to get through the door it opens. How do they do that alone?
Modern MMO's have moved so far away from what MMO's should be that they're barely distinguishable from single player games. Take a look at TOR, for example.
Some seriously flawed reasoning there. Raids to use the bathroom? No, people do that on their own. We're talking about a game designed where the player can't do things on their own. For a better example from real life, people can't design and build a skyscraper on their own, or fight an army alone..
The whole "I'm a hero." thing in modern MMO's is entirely that, a creation of modern MMO's. If you were the hero there wouldn't be 1 million other heroes surrounding you, doing the exact same things that you do. That doesn't make you a hero, that makes you normal.
MMO's were born out of AD&D which had normal characters going through adventures and becoming stronger as they went. And they were always in a group. Why? Because without support that Dragon is simply going to bite your head off. Or what about trapped dungeons? One needs to stand in a magic circle while another needs to get through the door it opens. How do they do that alone?
Modern MMO's have moved so far away from what MMO's should be that they're barely distinguishable from single player games. Take a look at TOR, for example.
You are aware that AD&D started publishing solo modules pretty early on to cater to people who didn't want to play with others and still wanted to play AD&D, right? That was one of the strengths of PnP RPGs, you could play the way you wanted to play, you were not forced to get a certain number of people together to make it work.
Maybe people wouldn't want to play solo so much if so much of the MMO-playing public weren't immature asshats. I want nothing to do with the majority of idiots in most game worlds, people who can't spell, act like 2-year olds, have no clue about common decency and are ultimately in it to screw everyone else so they can get more loot. And you want me to play with these asshats?
You are aware that AD&D started publishing solo modules pretty early on to cater to people who didn't want to play with others and still wanted to play AD&D, right? That was one of the strengths of PnP RPGs, you could play the way you wanted to play, you were not forced to get a certain number of people together to make it work.
Maybe people wouldn't want to play solo so much if so much of the MMO-playing public weren't immature asshats. I want nothing to do with the majority of idiots in most game worlds, people who can't spell, act like 2-year olds, have no clue about common decency and are ultimately in it to screw everyone else so they can get more loot. And you want me to play with these asshats?
Forget it.
Yeah, I'm aware of the solo modules, but the main outpouring of AD&D modules have been made for groups of players to work through. Much like MMO's, they can be fun playing alone, but ultimately the best content comes from joining up with other people for adventures.
And sure there are immature asshats in MMO's, but on the flip side there are also some really cool people who are great to hang out with. To turn away from grouping because of a few bad experiences with groups is like saying you're never going to date again because the last girl broke your heart. People are different, while one might be a pain another might be awesome, while one girl might have broke your heart, another might be with you for life.
It's the way of the world. If we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place. Just remember the asshats and hang out with the nice people. It's common sense, really.
You are aware that AD&D started publishing solo modules pretty early on to cater to people who didn't want to play with others and still wanted to play AD&D, right? That was one of the strengths of PnP RPGs, you could play the way you wanted to play, you were not forced to get a certain number of people together to make it work.
Maybe people wouldn't want to play solo so much if so much of the MMO-playing public weren't immature asshats. I want nothing to do with the majority of idiots in most game worlds, people who can't spell, act like 2-year olds, have no clue about common decency and are ultimately in it to screw everyone else so they can get more loot. And you want me to play with these asshats?
Forget it.
Yeah, I'm aware of the solo modules, but the main outpouring of AD&D modules have been made for groups of players to work through. Much like MMO's, they can be fun playing alone, but ultimately the best content comes from joining up with other people for adventures.
And sure there are immature asshats in MMO's, but on the flip side there are also some really cool people who are great to hang out with. To turn away from grouping because of a few bad experiences with groups is like saying you're never going to date again because the last girl broke your heart. People are different, while one might be a pain another might be awesome, while one girl might have broke your heart, another might be with you for life.
It's the way of the world. If we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place. Just remember the asshats and hang out with the nice people. It's common sense, really.
You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping. I entirely disagree. I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook. Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level. I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character. I've done that before. I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.
The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences. Most PnP groups were hand picked. They met on a regular schedule. There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like. You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals. I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years. We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity. That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways. Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?
I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people. Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it. It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.
You are aware that AD&D started publishing solo modules pretty early on to cater to people who didn't want to play with others and still wanted to play AD&D, right? That was one of the strengths of PnP RPGs, you could play the way you wanted to play, you were not forced to get a certain number of people together to make it work.
Maybe people wouldn't want to play solo so much if so much of the MMO-playing public weren't immature asshats. I want nothing to do with the majority of idiots in most game worlds, people who can't spell, act like 2-year olds, have no clue about common decency and are ultimately in it to screw everyone else so they can get more loot. And you want me to play with these asshats?
Forget it.
Yeah, I'm aware of the solo modules, but the main outpouring of AD&D modules have been made for groups of players to work through. Much like MMO's, they can be fun playing alone, but ultimately the best content comes from joining up with other people for adventures.
And sure there are immature asshats in MMO's, but on the flip side there are also some really cool people who are great to hang out with. To turn away from grouping because of a few bad experiences with groups is like saying you're never going to date again because the last girl broke your heart. People are different, while one might be a pain another might be awesome, while one girl might have broke your heart, another might be with you for life.
It's the way of the world. If we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place. Just remember the asshats and hang out with the nice people. It's common sense, really.
You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping. I entirely disagree. I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook. Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level. I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character. I've done that before. I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.
The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences. Most PnP groups were hand picked. They met on a regular schedule. There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like. You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals. I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years. We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity. That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways. Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?
I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people. Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it. It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.
I respect your words... but the experience you described is exactly the type of expeience I had myself while playing any MMO... its really tough to find people who will be there for you, just like in the real world...
You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping. I entirely disagree. I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook. Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level. I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character. I've done that before. I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.
The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences. Most PnP groups were hand picked. They met on a regular schedule. There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like. You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals. I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years. We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity. That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways. Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?
I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people. Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it. It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.
You contradict yourself a little there, you say being self-sufficient is far superior, then go on to say you were with a PnP group for 15 years, so obviously realise the benefits of having a team with you. Unless you always played the Lone Wolf character in those PnP games and went off to do your own thing half the time.
It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some groups that have tainted your view of things. I'd guess this happened in WoW, as I played that game and everything you describe is exactly what I found too. World of Warcraft had possibly the worst community I've ever experienced, and I only experienced it for 30 or so levels before quitting, so I pity the people who stayed there for the long haul.
Most MMO's I've been to aren't like that though, even in the solo-centric SWTOR I almost always had nice groups. They never stuck together after completing the flashpoint or group quest, but that was the nature of the game, it being solo based, but at least the people were cool. The same with LOTRO, though I'm not sure how it is more recently as that too has become solo based and being F2P inevitably brings in a bad crowd.
You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping. I entirely disagree. I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook. Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level. I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character. I've done that before. I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.
The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences. Most PnP groups were hand picked. They met on a regular schedule. There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like. You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals. I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years. We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity. That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways. Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?
I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people. Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it. It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.
You contradict yourself a little there, you say being self-sufficient is far superior, then go on to say you were with a PnP group for 15 years, so obviously realise the benefits of having a team with you. Unless you always played the Lone Wolf character in those PnP games and went off to do your own thing half the time.
It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some groups that have tainted your view of things. I'd guess this happened in WoW, as I played that game and everything you describe is exactly what I found too. World of Warcraft had possibly the worst community I've ever experienced, and I only experienced it for 30 or so levels before quitting, so I pity the people who stayed there for the long haul.
Most MMO's I've been to aren't like that though, even in the solo-centric SWTOR I almost always had nice groups. They never stuck together after completing the flashpoint or group quest, but that was the nature of the game, it being solo based, but at least the people were cool. The same with LOTRO, though I'm not sure how it is more recently as that too has become solo based and being F2P inevitably brings in a bad crowd.
Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise. It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included. Everyone is in a rush to cap. That's a bad community IMO.
And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences. PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together. You don't have that in an MMO. Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic. If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank. Someone else will take care of healing you. If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them. I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything. Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.
Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise. It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included. Everyone is in a rush to cap. That's a bad community IMO.
And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences. PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together. You don't have that in an MMO. Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic. If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank. Someone else will take care of healing you. If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them. I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything. Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.
The thing is, that type of character is only really going to be found in a single player game rather than an MMO. MMO's generally go with the trinity or close to it, so no one person can do everything. The MMO's where that sort of character can 'kinda' be built generally have a solo style, which - in my eyes at least, I know you disagree - are pretty much like single player games anyway.
I don't think everyone is in a rush to cap, I think people just want to do whatever content there is. If they can get to cap in a rush then that's a problem with the games design, not the players. Take original EQ as an example, there was almost no way of rushing through that game, it took months to get to max level and that's if you played a LOT every day. And so you found that groups were more laid back, they'd chat, they'd have fun, they'd move around from location to location or camp at one spot and just chill while bashing mobs. There was no rush as there was a certain inevitability to it, that max level is a long way off so you might as well just enjoy the ride.
More modern MMO's that have appeared off the back of WoW seem to increase the feeling of 'rushing' due to their design. Levels come fast, you move quickly from quest to quest, combat is a spam of button presses (EQ was a lot slower paced), conversation is almost non existant because your fingers are too busy attacking - it's like playing a game while overdosing on coffee. It's no wonder it feels like a rush.
Those rushing games breed that sort of community, as everyone are like hyperactive hamsters running at top speed in their little hamster wheel.
The thing is, that type of character is only really going to be found in a single player game rather than an MMO. MMO's generally go with the trinity or close to it, so no one person can do everything. The MMO's where that sort of character can 'kinda' be built generally have a solo style, which - in my eyes at least, I know you disagree - are pretty much like single player games anyway.
The problem with the trinity is that everyone has to build their characters to fit with the trinity, which limits individuality. Everyone has to be functionally identical with very little variation so they can jump into any group. Where's the fun if everyone is a cookie cutter of everyone else? At least soloing, you don't ahve to rely on any specific tactics, you cau build your characters the way you want to because you don't have to rely in trinity mechanics. If you want to do more damage, go ahead. If you want to be a more effective tank or a better healer, go ahead. It's up to you.
I don't think everyone is in a rush to cap, I think people just want to do whatever content there is. If they can get to cap in a rush then that's a problem with the games design, not the players. Take original EQ as an example, there was almost no way of rushing through that game, it took months to get to max level and that's if you played a LOT every day. And so you found that groups were more laid back, they'd chat, they'd have fun, they'd move around from location to location or camp at one spot and just chill while bashing mobs. There was no rush as there was a certain inevitability to it, that max level is a long way off so you might as well just enjoy the ride.
I can't tell you how many groups I've been in where I was trying to open chests and loot bodies and they were all racing down the hall to the next kill. I want to take my time, loot 100% of the bodies, look at the surroundings, etc. In games like Anarchy Online, where there are generic quests, groups grab 8-10 at a time and race through them over and over to gain experience. Or, they camp high-value areas, moving from one mob to the next so they can get 4-5 levels per hour. That's all they do. They don't loot. They just leave everything laying there and race to the next kill. That's just no fun for me.
More modern MMO's that have appeared off the back of WoW seem to increase the feeling of 'rushing' due to their design. Levels come fast, you move quickly from quest to quest, combat is a spam of button presses (EQ was a lot slower paced), conversation is almost non existant because your fingers are too busy attacking - it's like playing a game while overdosing on coffee. It's no wonder it feels like a rush.
EQ was, at least back in the day, a bit slower paced, but EQ is a dinosaur and nobody is interested in making another game like it, simply because it wouldn't make any money. That's fine, I have no problem with that and EQ had a ton of other issues. Honestly, I don't think EQ is immune to those problems today because the majority of problems come not from the game necessarily, but from the fact that MMOs are mainstream and draw a mainstream audience. Instead of the majority of players being intelligent, college-educated people like they used to be, they're spastic idiots with entitlement issues. I can't say I have any interest whatsoever in playing with any of them.
i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.
WoW did it in the worst possible way.
lol. Considering it caters to both ends of the spectrum.... That it is exactly what what I look for in any MMO -- the ability to do both because sometimes I'm not interested in gaming with people like you... And the people I am interested in gaming with aren't on...
They hit the sweet spot... Your mates aren't on... Great, you can solo something. Your mates are on, great you can do something together...
So while I don't play WoW (I hate its graphics), I respect what Blizzard has done... And there are a lot of MMOs that have failed to hold my interest because one of the two poles in the realm of possible gameplay was total crap... Like SWTOR...
Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise. It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included. Everyone is in a rush to cap. That's a bad community IMO.
And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences. PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together. You don't have that in an MMO. Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic. If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank. Someone else will take care of healing you. If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them. I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything. Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.
Oh please. I get so sick and tired of this 'immature communities' garbage that's been screamed at since first-generation MMOs like Ulitma Online first started...
Here's the deal, any game that has more than 500 subscribers has a 98% chance of being a statistically average slice of the MMO community at large. By the time you get into the low thousands, it is an average slice of the MMO community at large. You get to 500K subscribers and there isn't an atom's worth of difference between the communities because games that large ARE the MMO community at large. And it doesn't matter the game -- SWTOR players are no more mature than WoW players or Rift players or LotRO players or DDO players or Aion players...
And in most cases, they are the same people... In every one of those games I've met people from those other games... And they all say the same stupid stuff... "This game is so much more mature than XXXXX game..." Idiot groups of SWTOR players right now are looking down their noses and point fingers at WoW players.... Idiot groups of WoW players look down their noses and point fingers at SWTOR players...
Bottom line is, some people are mature, some people are jerks... And no matter the game, you have ninja looters, kill stealers, tappers, grinders, role-players, jerks in chat, bigots, clowns, incompetents, fanboys, raid boys, pvp boys, rush-to-cap, enjoy-teh-story, crafters, social gamers, leet-power-gamers, etc., etc., etc., in every game WoW or not-WoW.
And to pretend otherwise is just kidding yourself.
Oh please. I get so sick and tired of this 'immature communities' garbage that's been screamed at since first-generation MMOs like Ulitma Online first started...
Here's the deal, any game that has more than 500 subscribers has a 98% chance of being a statistically average slice of the MMO community at large. By the time you get into the low thousands, it is an average slice of the MMO community at large. You get to 500K subscribers and there isn't an atom's worth of difference between the communities because games that large ARE the MMO community at large. And it doesn't matter the game -- SWTOR players are no more mature than WoW players or Rift players or LotRO players or DDO players or Aion players...
And in most cases, they are the same people... In every one of those games I've met people from those other games... And they all say the same stupid stuff... "This game is so much more mature than XXXXX game..." Idiot groups of SWTOR players right now are looking down their noses and point fingers at WoW players.... Idiot groups of WoW players look down their noses and point fingers at SWTOR players...
Bottom line is, some people are mature, some people are jerks... And no matter the game, you have ninja looters, kill stealers, tappers, grinders, role-players, jerks in chat, bigots, clowns, incompetents, fanboys, raid boys, pvp boys, rush-to-cap, enjoy-teh-story, crafters, social gamers, leet-power-gamers, etc., etc., etc., in every game WoW or not-WoW.
And to pretend otherwise is just kidding yourself.
I never mentioned any games in particular, I am talking about the MMO community in general and in general, I think they are immature and self-centered, regardless of whatever game you're talking about. I'm saying that in general terms, these are not people I want to spend my time with.
I'm not kidding myself, that was the point I was making in the first place.
I'll never understand why players are so crazy about soloing an MMO, many of them want to solo the entire game. It makes no sense to me, and I have heard all of the arguements over the years.
I've come to one conclusion, those players are SELFISH!!
None of thier arguements make any sense, they call them MMO's for a reason, otherwise they would be MSO's. These selfish players love to ruin games for personal reasons, I have seen them on forums complaining so much that devs cave in, only to have the same players leave anyway, becaues the game was too hard, and they couldnt get finish the whole game without help.
If you try to direct them to some awsome single player games out there, and there are LOTS of good ones, they scream and cry, not caring at all about other players.
Soloers are the scourge of MMO's and I cant stand them. Its no coincidence that most of these soloers are the same hardcore pvp crowd looking for ffa full loot, the rest of them are loners who like to grind pve mobs all by themselves... all day long.
I wish they would go away!!!
That's some serious logic there.
Earth has over 4 billion people living on it. That's pretty massive don't you think? Do you think people do things on their own in real life? Or do you think they form raids to use the bathroom? One to hold the toilet paper... one to turn on the fan.. another support class to turn on the light... at least two to hold the newspaper and turn the pages...
Why exactly do you think MMO means anything about grouping?
I solo time to time. I've never wanted to be able to solo everything. I mean heck just because dragon slayers in folk lore pretty much were always solo.. and one of them was even a child... I don't think I should be able to solo dragons in a fantasy game where I am supposedly more heroic than in real life. Yet I don't really want to be in a group of 6 to 8 people... just to kill oh I dunno... rats or something else that is obviously dangerous... its not like a rabbit with giant fangs.. I could see grouping for that or at least a hand grenade of the holy type.
Even without my crystal ball I know I wouldn't group with you... just to be clear.
No, the flaw is you. Your comparing apples and oranges. In fact your analogies are very strange.
Then you compare a grouping scenerio with a typical low level quest like killing a few rats, something that is obviously a solo quest because its for low level characters, in starting areas... duh!! My post may have lack some details, but I feel most people reading these boards know what I mean.
Whole games are now being designed around soloers, then group play is added later on, stuff like raids and battlegrounds. Thats one of my main peevs, like I said in my original post, the devs are caving in to this very vocal crowd and MMO's are turning into MSO's.
Look at WoW, WAR and STO, you can solo all the way to end game. Even games like DDO and LOTR can be almost entirely soloed. That is just nuts, because the lore behind DDO and LOTR is ALL about adventuring with parties.
The PvP has suffered for it too, we use to have many games where world PvP was excellent, DAOC and Asheron's Call, just to name two, now you cant find it anywhere. Those games still had some solo content as well, but it wasnt enough for you guys, you had to have the whole damn game.
Why dont you just admit it, what you really want, is a single player game with a BIG chat room, because your lonely.
The more I can do solo in any mmo, the better. I have an entire life of relationships and responsibilities and friends and co-workers, etc. Doing some group content is fine occasionally and I believe that it must be designed for groups to be decent. RL can never just be all about me and I wouldn’t want it to be. But online, oh yeah, it’s mostly about me. And no, a single player game isn’t the same. Being among others is good in an mmo. I randomly help stangers all the time. Kinda like the Lone Ranger sans Tanto. What I seek is an experience pretty much devoid of responsibilities.
Raid schedules are right out for me as I already have a job. Besides, I let RL activities trump my online play all the time. If the wife asks "Wanna do dinner and a movie?" I'm out the door and my guild appearence gets cancelled. Guilds are OK until members get demanding as they inevitably will. Fail to run enough instances with people who can’t bear to play alone for even 10 minutes and you soon get a rep for being unhelpful, as if I log on to be at anyone’s beck and call.
And another thing. I will never understand the whole “hanging out” thing. I hang out in RL with friends but never in an MMO. When I played WoW people would hang out in Orgrimar for hours doing nothing but flooding trade chat. What a lousy way to spend time! I log to play damn it! OK, if some like it, more power to them. I still think it's weird though. I have no intention of chatting about my RL and have no desire to hear anyone’s problems. Or even their triumphs such as new jobs or children stories. Guild chat was full of this sort of thing. Turn guild chat off and you become any enemy of the state. I don’t want a new friend for life online! For me, other online players can never ever be real friends because they are strangers pure and simple. I treat people the same way in an mmo as I do in the grocery store. I’m pleasant and might even chat while in line but no relationships will begin there. I do my shopping and I get out. In an mmo I play and log off. The last thing I want from an mmo is someone or some gang who expects me to tank or heal for them on a regular basis.
As a paying solo player of any mmo, I expect access to the same level of gear as anyone else can get. Regardless of whether I pvp, raid or solo. Don’t tell me the best stuff should be found only in raid instances. It should make no difference to anyone what sort of gear any player gets or if they soloed it. The end game content should be reward enough for those who want to do it. I concede that good group content must be tailored. But that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with rewards.
The more I can do solo in any mmo, the better. I have an entire life of relationships and responsibilities and friends and co-workers, etc. Doing some group content is fine occasionally and I believe that it must be designed for groups to be decent. RL can never just be all about me and I wouldn’t want it to be. But online, oh yeah, it’s mostly about me. And no, a single player game isn’t the same. Being among others is good in an mmo. I randomly help stangers all the time. Kinda like the Lone Ranger sans Tanto. What I seek is an experience pretty much devoid of responsibilities.
Raid schedules are right out for me as I already have a job. Besides, I let RL activities trump my online play all the time. If the wife asks "Wanna do dinner and a movie?" I'm out the door and my guild appearence gets cancelled. Guilds are OK until members get demanding as they inevitably will. Fail to run enough instances with people who can’t bear to play alone for even 10 minutes and you soon get a rep for being unhelpful, as if I log on to be at anyone’s beck and call.
And another thing. I will never understand the whole “hanging out” thing. I hang out in RL with friends but never in an MMO. When I played WoW people would hang out in Orgrimar for hours doing nothing but flooding trade chat. What a lousy way to spend time! I log to play damn it! OK, if some like it, more power to them. I still think it's weird though. I have no intention of chatting about my RL and have no desire to hear anyone’s problems. Or even their triumphs such as new jobs or children stories. Guild chat was full of this sort of thing. Turn guild chat off and you become any enemy of the state. I don’t want a new friend for life online! For me, other online players can never ever be real friends because they are strangers pure and simple. I treat people the same way in an mmo as I do in the grocery store. I’m pleasant and might even chat while in line but no relationships will begin there. I do my shopping and I get out. In an mmo I play and log off. The last thing I want from an mmo is someone or some gang who expects me to tank or heal for them on a regular basis.
As a paying solo player of any mmo, I expect access to the same level of gear as anyone else can get. Regardless of whether I pvp, raid or solo. Don’t tell me the best stuff should be found only in raid instances. It should make no difference to anyone what sort of gear any player gets or if they soloed it. The end game content should be reward enough for those who want to do it. I concede that good group content must be tailored. But that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with rewards.
You ever think that the people who want to do all the things that you don't want to do in an MMO, is the reason you like being inside an MMO? They're the ones who bring the chat channels alive, they're the ones who you can watch from a distance, they're the ones who make your guild an active one, they're the people who have sparked up friendships and you see chatting all the time..
See, when everyone in an MMO is soloing then all that disappears, if people don't need each other then you get a lot of silence. Spend a couple of days in SWTOR and you'll see what I mean, whole planets are like ghost towns. If that's the pinnacle of solo-centric gameplay then you can keep it. Give me a true group based MMO any time.
Comments
I agree its just nice to know if you want to log on one day and don't feel like needing a group you can ALWAYS have some meaningful way to progress your character.
Now its up to the developers to balance the gains from solo gameplay and group gameplay, which imo Group gameplay should have a strong lead on, however for those who want to play solo but interact in a living world with other people should have an option or two.
Getting people to agree on this would be extemely difficult if not lets say impossible but I think with some clever ideas we can find some sort of balance.
The problem starts when people who play solo claim that they should of have just as influential, strong whatever rewards as groups do.
Naturally the group players question the idea of having a group at all if they dont have any advantage, why work harder for the same gain?
In my humble opinon I believe that setting up a group towards a common goal is more difficult then solo play and thus should be rewarded more greatly. However content should be progressed for both playstyles equally, that way you atleast have something meaningful to do, if you choose not to group.
Alts are the not the answer, they are a band-aid, people love having the "main" and want to keep playing THAT character and seeing it grow as the time investment and attachment grow with it.
While I agree that not everyone should gain the same rewards, I disagree that their chosen playstyle should be the deciding factor for obtaining said rewards. Whether a player chooses PvP, group PvE, or solo PvE, they should be able to reach the highest level of effectiveness at their given playstyle. If rewards given for group PvE are more effective at solo PvE or PvP, the devs have effectively invalidated those playstyles.
MMO games need to continue to evolve to make better and better use of a large, persistently online population. RIFT has actually done a damn good job to offer content that promotes the gathering of unlimited amounts of players to work together on the same goal: zone events. This is only the beginning.
So any MMO discussion about group play vs solo play should arguably be replaced by Solo play vs. Party play vs. Raid Play vs. Mass play. Each of the four ways to play should offer different reward trees to encourage a variety of playstyle. Just like leveling up pvp levels gets you better armor for pvping, solo activity should give you a chance at rare drops of gear that make it easier to solo, dungeon loot tables should give gear that is specifically role enhancing, raid loot should be gear that is only better for raid boss progression, and Mass event loot should provide tokens that could be used towards the purchase of any of the gear types.
The great part is if this was properly implemented in a game your best raid geared players should have trouble soloing mobs in their raid gear. It would seem fair because if they never ground any solo content that would mean their character never learned how to fight alone.
I just tried out SWTOR for two weeks, then unsubbed. Instead of the step ahead from WoW in soloability that was hinted at, this game is a complete regression. At very low levels you run out of quests that aren't heroic, leaving the choice of either being forced into groups, or grinding low level mobs for tiny amounts of XP at a time.
Obviously the devs have no respect for solo players, nor do they even have a basic understanding of what they want.
Waiting for GW2 now.
You're kidding, right? Were we even playing the same game? It was the reverse of what you said, 90% of it was solo and you didn't even have to do the other 10% to progress. With the addition of companions and static mobs which came in 3's, there really was no difficulty to any part of that game that actually required you to group. If you found it hard to solo then.. seriously.. learn to play, as a child could solo its way through that game.
With the addition of your companion the game was made a bit too soloable though. I've actually been a week without finding a group for anything that ISN'T the first instance 'cause everyone would much rather do their soloing than instance. It's a cool game, but honestly it shouldn't be an MMO. It feels too much like a single player game even to me, and I go out of my way to try to group up in any game. Plus I always found myself feeling that the side quests were not at all interesting and that I'd much rather play through my bounty hunter quest line, I'd much rather just play a single player game with half the game time if just to experience it on it's own.
I'll never understand why players are so crazy about soloing an MMO, many of them want to solo the entire game. It makes no sense to me, and I have heard all of the arguements over the years.
I've come to one conclusion, those players are SELFISH!!
None of thier arguements make any sense, they call them MMO's for a reason, otherwise they would be MSO's. These selfish players love to ruin games for personal reasons, I have seen them on forums complaining so much that devs cave in, only to have the same players leave anyway, becaues the game was too hard, and they couldnt get finish the whole game without help.
If you try to direct them to some awsome single player games out there, and there are LOTS of good ones, they scream and cry, not caring at all about other players.
Soloers are the scourge of MMO's and I cant stand them. Its no coincidence that most of these soloers are the same hardcore pvp crowd looking for ffa full loot, the rest of them are loners who like to grind pve mobs all by themselves... all day long.
I wish they would go away!!!
I have to say that I was always going solo everywhere and always hated the online component of nearly every game (I only had fun at LAN parties many years ago with Quake 3 and UT) but TOR was the first MMORPG game where I somewhat enjoyed the company of other players incidentally as initially I was merely asking for their help in defeating my instance missions which I was unable to do myself.
And even though I am unsubbed from the game right now, I still have to thank it for bringing me in this late in the game, and I think this may be its biggest feat.
Child's play eh? I had a lvl44 sith assassin and nearly 50% of that levelling came from me partying up with someone else to help me since I couldnt finish the missions myself no matter how good I was. Maybe I made wrong decisions from the outset with my character or did not outfit him with the right gear, but that's the way I managed to lvl him up. Of course I was feeling a bit guilty since in my instance other players were only getting points from me finishing my bonus missions and not the main missions themselves and thats why I think SWTOR is more SOLO than MP after all because there is not ENOUGH motivation for others to help you on your SP journey.
It encourages you to join other players and yet it doens't provide them enough incentive to do so - quite a contradiction if I ever saw any....
That's some serious logic there.
Earth has over 4 billion people living on it. That's pretty massive don't you think? Do you think people do things on their own in real life? Or do you think they form raids to use the bathroom? One to hold the toilet paper... one to turn on the fan.. another support class to turn on the light... at least two to hold the newspaper and turn the pages...
Why exactly do you think MMO means anything about grouping?
I solo time to time. I've never wanted to be able to solo everything. I mean heck just because dragon slayers in folk lore pretty much were always solo.. and one of them was even a child... I don't think I should be able to solo dragons in a fantasy game where I am supposedly more heroic than in real life. Yet I don't really want to be in a group of 6 to 8 people... just to kill oh I dunno... rats or something else that is obviously dangerous... its not like a rabbit with giant fangs.. I could see grouping for that or at least a hand grenade of the holy type.
Even without my crystal ball I know I wouldn't group with you... just to be clear.
Some seriously flawed reasoning there. Raids to use the bathroom? No, people do that on their own. We're talking about a game designed where the player can't do things on their own. For a better example from real life, people can't design and build a skyscraper on their own, or fight an army alone..
The whole "I'm a hero." thing in modern MMO's is entirely that, a creation of modern MMO's. If you were the hero there wouldn't be 1 million other heroes surrounding you, doing the exact same things that you do. That doesn't make you a hero, that makes you normal.
MMO's were born out of AD&D which had normal characters going through adventures and becoming stronger as they went. And they were always in a group. Why? Because without support that Dragon is simply going to bite your head off. Or what about trapped dungeons? One needs to stand in a magic circle while another needs to get through the door it opens. How do they do that alone?
Modern MMO's have moved so far away from what MMO's should be that they're barely distinguishable from single player games. Take a look at TOR, for example.
You are aware that AD&D started publishing solo modules pretty early on to cater to people who didn't want to play with others and still wanted to play AD&D, right? That was one of the strengths of PnP RPGs, you could play the way you wanted to play, you were not forced to get a certain number of people together to make it work.
Maybe people wouldn't want to play solo so much if so much of the MMO-playing public weren't immature asshats. I want nothing to do with the majority of idiots in most game worlds, people who can't spell, act like 2-year olds, have no clue about common decency and are ultimately in it to screw everyone else so they can get more loot. And you want me to play with these asshats?
Forget it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Yeah, I'm aware of the solo modules, but the main outpouring of AD&D modules have been made for groups of players to work through. Much like MMO's, they can be fun playing alone, but ultimately the best content comes from joining up with other people for adventures.
And sure there are immature asshats in MMO's, but on the flip side there are also some really cool people who are great to hang out with. To turn away from grouping because of a few bad experiences with groups is like saying you're never going to date again because the last girl broke your heart. People are different, while one might be a pain another might be awesome, while one girl might have broke your heart, another might be with you for life.
It's the way of the world. If we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place. Just remember the asshats and hang out with the nice people. It's common sense, really.
You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping. I entirely disagree. I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook. Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level. I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character. I've done that before. I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.
The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences. Most PnP groups were hand picked. They met on a regular schedule. There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like. You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals. I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years. We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity. That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways. Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?
I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people. Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it. It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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I respect your words... but the experience you described is exactly the type of expeience I had myself while playing any MMO... its really tough to find people who will be there for you, just like in the real world...
You contradict yourself a little there, you say being self-sufficient is far superior, then go on to say you were with a PnP group for 15 years, so obviously realise the benefits of having a team with you. Unless you always played the Lone Wolf character in those PnP games and went off to do your own thing half the time.
It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some groups that have tainted your view of things. I'd guess this happened in WoW, as I played that game and everything you describe is exactly what I found too. World of Warcraft had possibly the worst community I've ever experienced, and I only experienced it for 30 or so levels before quitting, so I pity the people who stayed there for the long haul.
Most MMO's I've been to aren't like that though, even in the solo-centric SWTOR I almost always had nice groups. They never stuck together after completing the flashpoint or group quest, but that was the nature of the game, it being solo based, but at least the people were cool. The same with LOTRO, though I'm not sure how it is more recently as that too has become solo based and being F2P inevitably brings in a bad crowd.
Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise. It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included. Everyone is in a rush to cap. That's a bad community IMO.
And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences. PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together. You don't have that in an MMO. Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic. If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank. Someone else will take care of healing you. If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them. I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything. Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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The thing is, that type of character is only really going to be found in a single player game rather than an MMO. MMO's generally go with the trinity or close to it, so no one person can do everything. The MMO's where that sort of character can 'kinda' be built generally have a solo style, which - in my eyes at least, I know you disagree - are pretty much like single player games anyway.
I don't think everyone is in a rush to cap, I think people just want to do whatever content there is. If they can get to cap in a rush then that's a problem with the games design, not the players. Take original EQ as an example, there was almost no way of rushing through that game, it took months to get to max level and that's if you played a LOT every day. And so you found that groups were more laid back, they'd chat, they'd have fun, they'd move around from location to location or camp at one spot and just chill while bashing mobs. There was no rush as there was a certain inevitability to it, that max level is a long way off so you might as well just enjoy the ride.
More modern MMO's that have appeared off the back of WoW seem to increase the feeling of 'rushing' due to their design. Levels come fast, you move quickly from quest to quest, combat is a spam of button presses (EQ was a lot slower paced), conversation is almost non existant because your fingers are too busy attacking - it's like playing a game while overdosing on coffee. It's no wonder it feels like a rush.
Those rushing games breed that sort of community, as everyone are like hyperactive hamsters running at top speed in their little hamster wheel.
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lol. Considering it caters to both ends of the spectrum.... That it is exactly what what I look for in any MMO -- the ability to do both because sometimes I'm not interested in gaming with people like you... And the people I am interested in gaming with aren't on...
They hit the sweet spot... Your mates aren't on... Great, you can solo something. Your mates are on, great you can do something together...
So while I don't play WoW (I hate its graphics), I respect what Blizzard has done... And there are a lot of MMOs that have failed to hold my interest because one of the two poles in the realm of possible gameplay was total crap... Like SWTOR...
Oh please. I get so sick and tired of this 'immature communities' garbage that's been screamed at since first-generation MMOs like Ulitma Online first started...
Here's the deal, any game that has more than 500 subscribers has a 98% chance of being a statistically average slice of the MMO community at large. By the time you get into the low thousands, it is an average slice of the MMO community at large. You get to 500K subscribers and there isn't an atom's worth of difference between the communities because games that large ARE the MMO community at large. And it doesn't matter the game -- SWTOR players are no more mature than WoW players or Rift players or LotRO players or DDO players or Aion players...
And in most cases, they are the same people... In every one of those games I've met people from those other games... And they all say the same stupid stuff... "This game is so much more mature than XXXXX game..." Idiot groups of SWTOR players right now are looking down their noses and point fingers at WoW players.... Idiot groups of WoW players look down their noses and point fingers at SWTOR players...
Bottom line is, some people are mature, some people are jerks... And no matter the game, you have ninja looters, kill stealers, tappers, grinders, role-players, jerks in chat, bigots, clowns, incompetents, fanboys, raid boys, pvp boys, rush-to-cap, enjoy-teh-story, crafters, social gamers, leet-power-gamers, etc., etc., etc., in every game WoW or not-WoW.
And to pretend otherwise is just kidding yourself.
I never mentioned any games in particular, I am talking about the MMO community in general and in general, I think they are immature and self-centered, regardless of whatever game you're talking about. I'm saying that in general terms, these are not people I want to spend my time with.
I'm not kidding myself, that was the point I was making in the first place.
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No, the flaw is you. Your comparing apples and oranges. In fact your analogies are very strange.
Then you compare a grouping scenerio with a typical low level quest like killing a few rats, something that is obviously a solo quest because its for low level characters, in starting areas... duh!! My post may have lack some details, but I feel most people reading these boards know what I mean.
Whole games are now being designed around soloers, then group play is added later on, stuff like raids and battlegrounds. Thats one of my main peevs, like I said in my original post, the devs are caving in to this very vocal crowd and MMO's are turning into MSO's.
Look at WoW, WAR and STO, you can solo all the way to end game. Even games like DDO and LOTR can be almost entirely soloed. That is just nuts, because the lore behind DDO and LOTR is ALL about adventuring with parties.
The PvP has suffered for it too, we use to have many games where world PvP was excellent, DAOC and Asheron's Call, just to name two, now you cant find it anywhere. Those games still had some solo content as well, but it wasnt enough for you guys, you had to have the whole damn game.
Why dont you just admit it, what you really want, is a single player game with a BIG chat room, because your lonely.
The more I can do solo in any mmo, the better. I have an entire life of relationships and responsibilities and friends and co-workers, etc. Doing some group content is fine occasionally and I believe that it must be designed for groups to be decent. RL can never just be all about me and I wouldn’t want it to be. But online, oh yeah, it’s mostly about me. And no, a single player game isn’t the same. Being among others is good in an mmo. I randomly help stangers all the time. Kinda like the Lone Ranger sans Tanto. What I seek is an experience pretty much devoid of responsibilities.
Raid schedules are right out for me as I already have a job. Besides, I let RL activities trump my online play all the time. If the wife asks "Wanna do dinner and a movie?" I'm out the door and my guild appearence gets cancelled. Guilds are OK until members get demanding as they inevitably will. Fail to run enough instances with people who can’t bear to play alone for even 10 minutes and you soon get a rep for being unhelpful, as if I log on to be at anyone’s beck and call.
And another thing. I will never understand the whole “hanging out” thing. I hang out in RL with friends but never in an MMO. When I played WoW people would hang out in Orgrimar for hours doing nothing but flooding trade chat. What a lousy way to spend time! I log to play damn it! OK, if some like it, more power to them. I still think it's weird though. I have no intention of chatting about my RL and have no desire to hear anyone’s problems. Or even their triumphs such as new jobs or children stories. Guild chat was full of this sort of thing. Turn guild chat off and you become any enemy of the state. I don’t want a new friend for life online! For me, other online players can never ever be real friends because they are strangers pure and simple. I treat people the same way in an mmo as I do in the grocery store. I’m pleasant and might even chat while in line but no relationships will begin there. I do my shopping and I get out. In an mmo I play and log off. The last thing I want from an mmo is someone or some gang who expects me to tank or heal for them on a regular basis.
As a paying solo player of any mmo, I expect access to the same level of gear as anyone else can get. Regardless of whether I pvp, raid or solo. Don’t tell me the best stuff should be found only in raid instances. It should make no difference to anyone what sort of gear any player gets or if they soloed it. The end game content should be reward enough for those who want to do it. I concede that good group content must be tailored. But that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with rewards.
You ever think that the people who want to do all the things that you don't want to do in an MMO, is the reason you like being inside an MMO? They're the ones who bring the chat channels alive, they're the ones who you can watch from a distance, they're the ones who make your guild an active one, they're the people who have sparked up friendships and you see chatting all the time..
See, when everyone in an MMO is soloing then all that disappears, if people don't need each other then you get a lot of silence. Spend a couple of days in SWTOR and you'll see what I mean, whole planets are like ghost towns. If that's the pinnacle of solo-centric gameplay then you can keep it. Give me a true group based MMO any time.