Sorry to butt in on this thread but I think people are arguing in the extremes here. Very few people only solo and very few people only group. The majority do a little of everything. And that is what a MMO should offer, freedom. A bit of everything in a open and persistant world where you can do pretty much anything you want to do.
In my opinion the ideal MMO offers solo, group(single group) and raid gameplay and rewards these activities accordingly. There should be some very attractive rewards for all kinds of content but the rewards from for example soloing must never overlap with the rewards from raiding. If that would be the case there would never be a real incentive for someone who only play solo to attempt group or raid content.
The standard today is that the best rewards come from raiding, which in turn basically makes everything else obsolete. If you get the same reward regardless of what type of content you pursue then we havent really moved forward, we have just added more ways to make even more content obsolete. Everything you can do in a MMO should have its unique rewards that you cant get anywhere else based on time, effort and difficulty. The point here being that someone who raids should also want to clear all solo and group content for rewards he/she could never gain from raiding.
IMO the problem lies in the fact that by trying to do everything, devs tend to overlook some things. Certain aspects of gameplay get obvious preferential treatment to that of other elements.
Why can't there be MMOs that are designed exclusively for groups? That enhances and plays to the second "M" in MMO. Besides, there are already a TON of MMO games that have both solo and group content, and even more solo games that are exclusively solo.
Originally posted by Lethargic_Synapse Why can't there be MMOs that are designed exclusively for groups? That enhances and plays to the second "M" in MMO. Besides, there are already a TON of MMO games that have both solo and group content, and even more solo games that are exclusively solo.
Why can't people pay attention, this has been addressed hundreds of times. There *CAN* be MMOs that are designed for groups, but developers have not been convinced there are enough people who would play these games and pay the monthly fees to make them financially viable. These games cost millions of dollars and take years of development time, no company is going to waste it's time and it's investor's money to make a game that is going to fail out of the gates. There has to be a large enough audience for the developers to take that risk. Most people who are making the argument you make aren't taking that into account, you just want something and think someone ought to make it for you.
In another thread I said exactly what you just covered, so I'm not sure what your point is. The point I'm making is that there USED to be enough people, apparently, to merit such games being made. Just because more people that want easy mode are out there is no reason to cater only to them.
If gaming were ONLY about making money, that'd be one thing. Apparently that's the case nowadays. There just used to be a time when devs made games they themselves would want to play, because it was fun. One day a dev will wisen up and start making "niche" games, such as the aforementioned, and clean up, instead of trying to appeal to everyone at once, and falling short in some areas because of this.
I mentioned this in another thread (can't for the life of me remember which one); but honestly at this point, I wish more games offered what STO does as far as being able to put together your own party. Yep, I want that old SSI Gold Box experience in a MMO - I want to level up my main character as well as a group of NPCs that flesh out my party.
I used to enjoy MMOs and playing with folks. Over the past 15 years though, I've grown tired of the majority of folks that play MMOs while still enjoying the MMOs themselves. Yep, I want what STO does - in other games. Whether I'm putting together a party of 4, 5, or even 6... I want to level up my party and enjoy the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
As I mentioned in another thread, my physical limitations are such that I no longer feel comfortable playing in squads. But -- and let me make this clear -- there came a point even before my illness that I didn't like being in squads. I've always tended to be more of a methodical/tactical player than a wham-bam out-muscle the boss type. I really dislike going into squads with people who've emphasized fast leveling over learning their class/squad role.
So, I find myself eschewing any game that:
Furnishes the best equipment only in instances requiring a squad;
Provides quick-leveling mechanisms and uber equipment for cash shoppers; and
Makes it necessary to squad with others to complete many routine quests.
Of course, these criteria leave me with few choices, if any.
In another thread I said exactly what you just covered, so I'm not sure what your point is. The point I'm making is that there USED to be enough people, apparently, to merit such games being made. Just because more people that want easy mode are out there is no reason to cater only to them.
There used to be, then MMOs went mainstream and you went from maybe a million total MMO players to, say, 10 million, just to keep the numbers clean. People who wanted to group went from 50% of the total population down to 5%. There may have been a time when catering to groupers was a financially intelligent thing to do, that time is long gone.
If gaming were ONLY about making money, that'd be one thing. Apparently that's the case nowadays. There just used to be a time when devs made games they themselves would want to play, because it was fun. One day a dev will wisen up and start making "niche" games, such as the aforementioned, and clean up, instead of trying to appeal to everyone at once, and falling short in some areas because of this.
That's the problem, it has *ALWAYS* been only about making money. That's what business is all about. It always has been and always will be. Further, developers virtually never use their own money to make games, they have to rely on outside investors who want a significant return on their investment. If you think for one second that anyone is going to make a niche game just for the fun of it, you're out of your mind.
Well, I recently backed on Kickstarter a campaign for Wasteland 2 to go into development (which now is), and that's a pretty good example. It's obvious that more players would prefer a Bethesda fps-style RPG over the classic top-down/isometric view that games like Fallout 1 and 2 are known for, but that's what they're going for. They're catering to the fans, not to the mainstream crowd. The interesting thing is that they surpassed their startup cost goal by quite a bit (goal was 900k, they raised over 2.9 million).
I think the evidence is mounting that there IS a market for games to be made for gamers and not only for the purpose of increasing the bottom line of the company. Maybe it's just a pipe dream but it's one that at least one company has vastly profited from already. Before WoW, games like FFXI and EQ were considered huge successes. WoW changed the golden standard of potential MMO income and now every other company strives to achieve the same level of success. But from my understanding (not an expert) WoW had nowhere near the millions and millions of subs it had at launch.
I just think it's still feasible for games to be made for a particular type of gamer, since it's done in almost every other category of games now besides MMORPGs. And it would still be profitable.
I think the evidence is mounting that there IS a market for games to be made for gamers and not only for the purpose of increasing the bottom line of the company.
The problem with this logic is that the bottom line always has to do with appeasing the largest amount of gamers, or going for a niche market and appeasing a specific target demographic.
What the companies make is what gamers want. You sound like someone who wants a niche market, but you have to remember, such games do exist.
All games are made for gamers by gamers, the business end doesn't interfere with the creative process (a common misconception). The fact is most people are dumb and having an intellectual idea won't fly with most people.
Originally posted by Lethargic_Synapse Why can't there be MMOs that are designed exclusively for groups? That enhances and plays to the second "M" in MMO. Besides, there are already a TON of MMO games that have both solo and group content, and even more solo games that are exclusively solo.
Why can't people pay attention, this has been addressed hundreds of times. There *CAN* be MMOs that are designed for groups, but developers have not been convinced there are enough people who would play these games and pay the monthly fees to make them financially viable. These games cost millions of dollars and take years of development time, no company is going to waste it's time and it's investor's money to make a game that is going to fail out of the gates. There has to be a large enough audience for the developers to take that risk. Most people who are making the argument you make aren't taking that into account, you just want something and think someone ought to make it for you.
That's not how the real world works.
How else are people supposed to express thier interest for a product that doesn't exist then publicaly stating that they have an interest in said product?
Absent having a ton of money to invest as a principle (and that certainly doesn't describe most people here, I think) and looking for a Developer to take one the project (and then convincing others to invest)....the only venue the average consumer has is to express thier interest publicaly....and hope that someone with the ability to act upon it may find it interesting enough to at least start doing some real market research on it.
Lethargic,
You may want to take a look at Pathfinder Online.....I have a similar sentiment, and it's looking fairly promising to me, so far.
How else are people supposed to express thier interest for a product that doesn't exist then publicaly stating that they have an interest in said product?
There's nothing wrong with expressing interest in a product. I wish someone would make an MMO with decent people playing it. I just know that won't happen, that any MMO I play will continue to be populated by mental midgets and obnoxious assholes so I just don't play. Nobody owes me the game I want to play. I can still want it, I just know that it won't happen.
Absent having a ton of money to invest as a principle (and that certainly doesn't describe most people here, I think) and looking for a Developer to take one the project (and then convincing others to invest)....the only venue the average consumer has is to express thier interest publicaly....and hope that someone with the ability to act upon it may find it interesting enough to at least start doing some real market research on it.
Express all the interest you want, just don't pretend that anyone owes you the game you want. Lots of people do that. Lots of people here act like someone ought to make the game they want, just because they want it, they deserve to b e treated special because they woke up this morning.
How else are people supposed to express thier interest for a product that doesn't exist then publicaly stating that they have an interest in said product?
There's nothing wrong with expressing interest in a product. I wish someone would make an MMO with decent people playing it. I just know that won't happen, that any MMO I play will continue to be populated by mental midgets and obnoxious assholes so I just don't play. Nobody owes me the game I want to play. I can still want it, I just know that it won't happen.
Absent having a ton of money to invest as a principle (and that certainly doesn't describe most people here, I think) and looking for a Developer to take one the project (and then convincing others to invest)....the only venue the average consumer has is to express thier interest publicaly....and hope that someone with the ability to act upon it may find it interesting enough to at least start doing some real market research on it.
Express all the interest you want, just don't pretend that anyone owes you the game you want. Lots of people do that. Lots of people here act like someone ought to make the game they want, just because they want it, they deserve to b e treated special because they woke up this morning.
It just ain't so.
You've just described supply and demand, which is business 101. When there's demand a smart business will create a supply to meet it. It's not about being "owed"... In fact, you're not owed ANY game on the market. They're not created as a right, it's a form of entertainment; not sure where you were going with that one.
I'd also like to add that the "obnoxious mental midgets" you describe are much more commonplace in today's standard cookie-cutter MMO model. They were much less common in EQ or even FFXI, because you had to work together to get anywhere, and the morons were weeded out fairly early in the game. Either way, an MMO's developer can't really control the people buying and playing the game, so that's not really the same ballpark as creating a game to meet the rising demand of consumers.
You've just described supply and demand, which is business 101. When there's demand a smart business will create a supply to meet it. It's not about being "owed"... In fact, you're not owed ANY game on the market. They're not created as a right, it's a form of entertainment; not sure where you were going with that one.
Of course, but the point was, it's one thing to say "wouldn't it be great if someone would make this game" and lots of people agreed and a developer came by and saw all the interest and decided to take a chance on making such a game. However, that's not what many people are saying. Many people don't have reasonable expectations, they want what they want and according to them, they're entitled to get it. How many people do you see that whine "waaah, it's unfair I don't get my OWPvP perma-death game! Give it to me!" They don't understand the economics of business, they just want to be given their dream game right now.
I'd also like to add that the "obnoxious mental midgets" you describe are much more commonplace in today's standard cookie-cutter MMO model. They were much less common in EQ or even FFXI, because you had to work together to get anywhere, and the morons were weeded out fairly early in the game. Either way, an MMO's developer can't really control the people buying and playing the game, so that's not really the same ballpark as creating a game to meet the rising demand of consumers.
No, they can't, which is why it will remain a fantasy. The simple fact is, back in the UO and EQ days, the MMO community was made up almost exclusively of a particular "type" of person, the geek or the nerd. They were the only ones that had access to the computers powerful enough to run the games and the high speed Internet connections necessary to connect to them. Because people had the same general interests, you didn't have as many conflicts and you had a single widespread community instead of the dozens of disparate communities that you have today. Now that games have gone mainstream, you can never put the genie back in the bottle.
That said though, I'd really love to have a game where people don't spam the chat channels with fart jokes, where people understand how to type in English and don't think "u" is a word, etc. Those people ruin every bit of enjoyment I get out of an MMO and are the primary reason I want to solo all the time. I know it won't happen but I can dream.
You've just described supply and demand, which is business 101. When there's demand a smart business will create a supply to meet it. It's not about being "owed"... In fact, you're not owed ANY game on the market. They're not created as a right, it's a form of entertainment; not sure where you were going with that one.
Of course, but the point was, it's one thing to say "wouldn't it be great if someone would make this game" and lots of people agreed and a developer came by and saw all the interest and decided to take a chance on making such a game. However, that's not what many people are saying. Many people don't have reasonable expectations, they want what they want and according to them, they're entitled to get it. How many people do you see that whine "waaah, it's unfair I don't get my OWPvP perma-death game! Give it to me!" They don't understand the economics of business, they just want to be given their dream game right now.
I'd also like to add that the "obnoxious mental midgets" you describe are much more commonplace in today's standard cookie-cutter MMO model. They were much less common in EQ or even FFXI, because you had to work together to get anywhere, and the morons were weeded out fairly early in the game. Either way, an MMO's developer can't really control the people buying and playing the game, so that's not really the same ballpark as creating a game to meet the rising demand of consumers.
No, they can't, which is why it will remain a fantasy. The simple fact is, back in the UO and EQ days, the MMO community was made up almost exclusively of a particular "type" of person, the geek or the nerd. They were the only ones that had access to the computers powerful enough to run the games and the high speed Internet connections necessary to connect to them. Because people had the same general interests, you didn't have as many conflicts and you had a single widespread community instead of the dozens of disparate communities that you have today. Now that games have gone mainstream, you can never put the genie back in the bottle.
That said though, I'd really love to have a game where people don't spam the chat channels with fart jokes, where people understand how to type in English and don't think "u" is a word, etc. Those people ruin every bit of enjoyment I get out of an MMO and are the primary reason I want to solo all the time. I know it won't happen but I can dream.
I agree, and I'll concede that many gamers do tend to whine about the games that are available. It seems that most people want the product of their dreams but aren't willing to put in the time and work necessary to learn how to program or create 3D models, or AI scripts, etc. It just seemed like you were lumping me into that category, so I felt a need to be defensive to a point. I'll admit my major isn't in game design, rather it's marketing and economics. I've been considering going on to grad school for game design/CS or something along those lines, but that's still a year away or so.
It may be just a pipedream, but I do hope for a new EQ with the original gameplay model. Maybe someday I'll help create it.
I agree, and I'll concede that many gamers do tend to whine about the games that are available. It seems that most people want the product of their dreams but aren't willing to put in the time and work necessary to learn how to program or create 3D models, or AI scripts, etc. It just seemed like you were lumping me into that category, so I felt a need to be defensive to a point. I'll admit my major isn't in game design, rather it's marketing and economics. I've been considering going on to grad school for game design/CS or something along those lines, but that's still a year away or so.
People don't even need to learn how to create games, they just have to understand how and why they are made and have realistic expectations about why games come out the way they do. If one guy wants a particular game, he's got no shot in hell of getting it made. If 100,000 people want the same kind of game, we'll talk. It's about the numbers, not about the fervor that gets games made. People need to understand that no matter how much they want a game made, it's the money and the number of demonstrable financial supporters that determine what actually gets produced.
Further, people need to get over the idea that anything that happens on this forum means a damn thing. MMMORPG.com is a drop of piss in a bucket compared to the mainstream video game audience. We just don't matter. Sure, there are lots of fanatics here, but fanatics don't make games successful, it's a ton of people paying a ton of money for a long, long time that matter. That's the people who games are made for. That's reality.
I agree, and I'll concede that many gamers do tend to whine about the games that are available. It seems that most people want the product of their dreams but aren't willing to put in the time and work necessary to learn how to program or create 3D models, or AI scripts, etc. It just seemed like you were lumping me into that category, so I felt a need to be defensive to a point. I'll admit my major isn't in game design, rather it's marketing and economics. I've been considering going on to grad school for game design/CS or something along those lines, but that's still a year away or so.
People don't even need to learn how to create games, they just have to understand how and why they are made and have realistic expectations about why games come out the way they do. If one guy wants a particular game, he's got no shot in hell of getting it made. If 100,000 people want the same kind of game, we'll talk. It's about the numbers, not about the fervor that gets games made. People need to understand that no matter how much they want a game made, it's the money and the number of demonstrable financial supporters that determine what actually gets produced.
Further, people need to get over the idea that anything that happens on this forum means a damn thing. MMMORPG.com is a drop of piss in a bucket compared to the mainstream video game audience. We just don't matter. Sure, there are lots of fanatics here, but fanatics don't make games successful, it's a ton of people paying a ton of money for a long, long time that matter. That's the people who games are made for. That's reality.
True, but the thing is, there ARE a lot of people that want this type of game. I'm not the first person bringing it up, especially considering how many people in this thread alone are for it. You have to ask yourself, if the ONLY way to make games and be successful is to make them WoW-like, why was EQ successful enough to merit sequels? There's another EQ game supposedly being produced as well. (EQNext) It's an obviously recurring theme throughout multiple forums, and where else are gamers that want games to be made supposed to let their voices be heard? The only other option really is Kickstarter and that only really works for games already posed.
There's already credible evidence supporting my claim that a group-based MMO definitely has a place in the market and enough consumers want it to warrant its creation. Granted these forums alone won't mean much in the grand scheme, but any intelligent dev prospecting for game ideas would surf multiple forums including ones such as mmorpg.com, so I'm not sure that's completely accurate either. The only reason games are being made to cater to the solo player as far as MMORPGs now is because WoW is the new gold standard and they did so. Everyone wants to be at the top of the heap, but people need to remember that not everyone can be, and everything has its place. To be honest all "WoW-killers" that follow the same gameplay model end up failing. The only way to break away from that trend is to find one's own niche, and what better niche to follow than another already established and successful game style? After all, WoW really became popular in the first place because of EQ's success, and EQ had at its peak almost a half a million subs. Now, that's no 12 million or whatever WoW reached at its peak, but like I said, games shouldn't all strive to be WoW. They should find their market and cater to it. After all, having a substantial market share is definitely preferable, capitalwise, to attempting to take over a more successful competitor's market share and failing.
It's true that no experienced enterprise is going to take the comments from a few posters on any forum as sufficient evidence of a market to start funding and building a major project. However the idea for what to start to do real market research has to start from somewhere. That can be completely internal or it can come from direct customer feedback or it can come from industry/hobby specific forums like this one. I see that in my own industry. Because actual market research can be resource and cost intensive you can't do it on everything. You've got to direct it toward some concepts that you suspect MIGHT be viable.
However identifying underserved market segments or unfullfilled demands IS your best chance for success in a crowded market. Otherwise you are left with trying to out-execute established players at things they are already fairly expert at executing and fighting against thier established brand recognition in thier own market. That's generaly a loosing proposition.
In regards community...you are correct that a Developer can't litteraly choose which consumer purchases thier product. However that does not mean the Developer is absolutely powerless in the type of of community they end up with. There is ALOT they can do to influence thier games community....from the type of game and mechanics they design...to thier effort in enforcement of TOS.... to the tone and attitude they adopt in communications to consumers....to how and where they market thier product.
People need to understand that no matter how much they want a game made, it's the money and the number of demonstrable financial supporters that determine what actually gets produced.
I still don't entirely agree with this. It actually brings to mind the whole Bioware/EA thing, that once upon a time Bioware used to make great games, they used to spend their time perfecting those games until they were ready to be released. They were games that they wanted to make and they wanted to make them the best they could be. Then along came EA, the big business, the people with all the cash to throw around, the people who decided when a game was to be released and in what state. So we get the mess that was ME3's ending, or the horrible SW:TOR, and we also get the founders of Bioware deciding to call it a day and move on.
If you have a dedicated group of people wanting to make a game to the best of their ability, then no amount of money, market research or anything else will stop them creating that game. When the money, research and everything else comes before the game then the game, and the company as a whole, suffers.
Work with a large company that cares more about the money it's making and you'll see the same games created time and again as they try and take a share of whatever is popular. If the company, however, is more interested in the craft of making great games - companies such as pre-EA Bioware, Rockstar and IO Interactive - then you'll see a more original quality product.
It's true that no experienced enterprise is going to take the comments from a few posters on any forum as sufficient evidence of a market to start funding and building a major project. However the idea for what to start to do real market research has to start from somewhere. That can be completely internal or it can come from direct customer feedback or it can come from industry/hobby specific forums like this one. I see that in my own industry. Because actual market research can be resource and cost intensive you can't do it on everything. You've got to direct it toward some concepts that you suspect MIGHT be viable.
However identifying underserved market segments or unfullfilled demands IS your best chance for success in a crowded market. Otherwise you are left with trying to out-execute established players at things they are already fairly expert at executing and fighting against thier established brand recognition in thier own market. That's generaly a loosing proposition.
In regards community...you are correct that a Developer can't litteraly choose which consumer purchases thier product. However that does not mean the Developer is absolutely powerless in the type of of community they end up with. There is ALOT they can do to influence thier games community....from the type of game and mechanics they design...to thier effort in enforcement of TOS.... to the tone and attitude they adopt in communications to consumers....to how and where they market thier product.
People need to understand that no matter how much they want a game made, it's the money and the number of demonstrable financial supporters that determine what actually gets produced.
I still don't entirely agree with this. It actually brings to mind the whole Bioware/EA thing, that once upon a time Bioware used to make great games, they used to spend their time perfecting those games until they were ready to be released. They were games that they wanted to make and they wanted to make them the best they could be. Then along came EA, the big business, the people with all the cash to throw around, the people who decided when a game was to be released and in what state. So we get the mess that was ME3's ending, or the horrible SW:TOR, and we also get the founders of Bioware deciding to call it a day and move on.
If you have a dedicated group of people wanting to make a game to the best of their ability, then no amount of money, market research or anything else will stop them creating that game. When the money, research and everything else comes before the game then the game, and the company as a whole, suffers.
Work with a large company that cares more about the money it's making and you'll see the same games created time and again as they try and take a share of whatever is popular. If the company, however, is more interested in the craft of making great games - companies such as pre-EA Bioware, Rockstar and IO Interactive - then you'll see a more original quality product.
I agree. That's why I'm so into Kickstarter, and why I suspect it might become a huge format soon for making games. I think it's a great idea personally-gamers can be the ones directly funding the games that are being made, and feel like they're more integral in the process than simply consumers. The devs love it because they don't have a corporate overlord breathing down their necks to meet certain criteria or deadlines, giving them more creative flexibility. And the gamers love it because the games they actually WANT are being made.
I agree. That's why I'm so into Kickstarter, and why I suspect it might become a huge format soon for making games. I think it's a great idea personally-gamers can be the ones directly funding the games that are being made, and feel like they're more integral in the process than simply consumers. The devs love it because they don't have a corporate overlord breathing down their necks to meet certain criteria or deadlines, giving them more creative flexibility. And the gamers love it because the games they actually WANT are being made.
I think it won't change a thing. Lots of people may fund the initial development of a game, but it takes years to develop a game and even when you're done, it still takes tons of money to keep the game running. Many people who throw a couple of bucks toward a game today may not even be playing MMOs in 5 years. Their tastes may change. Plus the fact, a lot of the people putting projects up on Kickstarter are usually not proven companies with a track record of excellence, people may hate what they end up producing, no matter what promises have been made.
I think Kickstarter is a good idea for funding products in the short term. Things that may or may not ever come out somewhere down the line though... not so much.
I agree. That's why I'm so into Kickstarter, and why I suspect it might become a huge format soon for making games. I think it's a great idea personally-gamers can be the ones directly funding the games that are being made, and feel like they're more integral in the process than simply consumers. The devs love it because they don't have a corporate overlord breathing down their necks to meet certain criteria or deadlines, giving them more creative flexibility. And the gamers love it because the games they actually WANT are being made.
I think it won't change a thing. Lots of people may fund the initial development of a game, but it takes years to develop a game and even when you're done, it still takes tons of money to keep the game running. Many people who throw a couple of bucks toward a game today may not even be playing MMOs in 5 years. Their tastes may change. Plus the fact, a lot of the people putting projects up on Kickstarter are usually not proven companies with a track record of excellence, people may hate what they end up producing, no matter what promises have been made.
I think Kickstarter is a good idea for funding products in the short term. Things that may or may not ever come out somewhere down the line though... not so much.
Actually, a Kickstarter beneficiary is contractually obligated to complete the product. However, I think it depends on the type of game being made. An MMORPG wouldn't be a good fit for a Kickstarter project just because of the sheer millions of dollars required for infrastructure and design. Single player games, especially in certain styles, are quite feasible for a medium like Kickstarter to facilitate funding. I used Wasteland 2 as an example, and it's being created by the founder of Interplay and inXile, Brian Fargo. That's a pretty proven track record, if you ask me.
To be honest the main aspect affecting the polish on a game is time. You put more dollars into the pot to buy more people's time, thus shortening the time required to create the product. But if you have a small team of devoted devs that aren't being stressed out by a large capital provider, they can create the game they really want to make. That makes them a little more inclined to put in the extra hours and be completely devoted to their project. These are actually some of the reasons Fargo himself went through Kickstarter.
I think you have the right of it, Kickstarter is a wonderful development for smaller types of projects and games. I think we'll see alot of cool things come out of it in that arena...and some of them may even become quite popular/succesfull (doubt any corporate entities would have funded Minecraft for example, had it needed any funding, or expected it to become as popular as it has). Alot of smaller, simpler projects really don't take much cash at all to bring to fruition.
For MMO's, I think where you'll see it usefull is as a vehicle to demonstrate to investors that there is sufficient interest in the project to justify investment (the way PFO has used it) or to bridge the gap if there is a budget shortfall in the project and you just need a little bit more to bring it to completion. It could also be used as a from of pre-beta advertisement for a game that doesn't really need the finances but wants to build some audience attachment to the project before rolling into beta.
In those ways, I think it can be very powerfull. For example, it one thing to walk into an investor meeting with some purchased market research that X number of people answered a survey saying they would be interested in the game you are building, it's quite another when you walk into that same meeting and show that you were able to raise $300k in 30 days from thousands of interested future clients opening up thier wallets and donating money because they want to see your product built. Answering a survey doesn't require much commitment from a customer. Actually opening up your wallet and paying out $30, $50 or $100 for a product that isn't even built yet.....nothing is going to speak louder to an investor about customer interest then that.
Yeah, I could see that. I think the main barrier would be introductory financing to show to other devs to get more funding. The only problem I can see with this kind of system is the fact that those devs will want to put their hands into the project, and potentially ruin what the gamers helped initially fund. However, if they had a clause in the Kickstarter contract that any outside developer dollars would create only a limited partnership and wouldn't give them access to the game's rights, it might work.
I think a lot of devs are greedy, unfortunately, simply because they're a business enterprise and that's the nature of the beast. I remain optimistic, however, that this kind of program can be a huge stepping stone on the path to getting MMORPGs back to their former glory.
Comments
Sorry to butt in on this thread but I think people are arguing in the extremes here. Very few people only solo and very few people only group. The majority do a little of everything. And that is what a MMO should offer, freedom. A bit of everything in a open and persistant world where you can do pretty much anything you want to do.
In my opinion the ideal MMO offers solo, group(single group) and raid gameplay and rewards these activities accordingly. There should be some very attractive rewards for all kinds of content but the rewards from for example soloing must never overlap with the rewards from raiding. If that would be the case there would never be a real incentive for someone who only play solo to attempt group or raid content.
The standard today is that the best rewards come from raiding, which in turn basically makes everything else obsolete. If you get the same reward regardless of what type of content you pursue then we havent really moved forward, we have just added more ways to make even more content obsolete. Everything you can do in a MMO should have its unique rewards that you cant get anywhere else based on time, effort and difficulty. The point here being that someone who raids should also want to clear all solo and group content for rewards he/she could never gain from raiding.
Just my 2 cents.
Why can't people pay attention, this has been addressed hundreds of times. There *CAN* be MMOs that are designed for groups, but developers have not been convinced there are enough people who would play these games and pay the monthly fees to make them financially viable. These games cost millions of dollars and take years of development time, no company is going to waste it's time and it's investor's money to make a game that is going to fail out of the gates. There has to be a large enough audience for the developers to take that risk. Most people who are making the argument you make aren't taking that into account, you just want something and think someone ought to make it for you.
That's not how the real world works.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
In another thread I said exactly what you just covered, so I'm not sure what your point is. The point I'm making is that there USED to be enough people, apparently, to merit such games being made. Just because more people that want easy mode are out there is no reason to cater only to them.
If gaming were ONLY about making money, that'd be one thing. Apparently that's the case nowadays. There just used to be a time when devs made games they themselves would want to play, because it was fun. One day a dev will wisen up and start making "niche" games, such as the aforementioned, and clean up, instead of trying to appeal to everyone at once, and falling short in some areas because of this.
I mentioned this in another thread (can't for the life of me remember which one); but honestly at this point, I wish more games offered what STO does as far as being able to put together your own party. Yep, I want that old SSI Gold Box experience in a MMO - I want to level up my main character as well as a group of NPCs that flesh out my party.
I used to enjoy MMOs and playing with folks. Over the past 15 years though, I've grown tired of the majority of folks that play MMOs while still enjoying the MMOs themselves. Yep, I want what STO does - in other games. Whether I'm putting together a party of 4, 5, or even 6... I want to level up my party and enjoy the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
As I mentioned in another thread, my physical limitations are such that I no longer feel comfortable playing in squads. But -- and let me make this clear -- there came a point even before my illness that I didn't like being in squads. I've always tended to be more of a methodical/tactical player than a wham-bam out-muscle the boss type. I really dislike going into squads with people who've emphasized fast leveling over learning their class/squad role.
So, I find myself eschewing any game that:
There used to be, then MMOs went mainstream and you went from maybe a million total MMO players to, say, 10 million, just to keep the numbers clean. People who wanted to group went from 50% of the total population down to 5%. There may have been a time when catering to groupers was a financially intelligent thing to do, that time is long gone.
That's the problem, it has *ALWAYS* been only about making money. That's what business is all about. It always has been and always will be. Further, developers virtually never use their own money to make games, they have to rely on outside investors who want a significant return on their investment. If you think for one second that anyone is going to make a niche game just for the fun of it, you're out of your mind.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Well, I recently backed on Kickstarter a campaign for Wasteland 2 to go into development (which now is), and that's a pretty good example. It's obvious that more players would prefer a Bethesda fps-style RPG over the classic top-down/isometric view that games like Fallout 1 and 2 are known for, but that's what they're going for. They're catering to the fans, not to the mainstream crowd. The interesting thing is that they surpassed their startup cost goal by quite a bit (goal was 900k, they raised over 2.9 million).
I think the evidence is mounting that there IS a market for games to be made for gamers and not only for the purpose of increasing the bottom line of the company. Maybe it's just a pipe dream but it's one that at least one company has vastly profited from already. Before WoW, games like FFXI and EQ were considered huge successes. WoW changed the golden standard of potential MMO income and now every other company strives to achieve the same level of success. But from my understanding (not an expert) WoW had nowhere near the millions and millions of subs it had at launch.
I just think it's still feasible for games to be made for a particular type of gamer, since it's done in almost every other category of games now besides MMORPGs. And it would still be profitable.
The problem with this logic is that the bottom line always has to do with appeasing the largest amount of gamers, or going for a niche market and appeasing a specific target demographic.
What the companies make is what gamers want. You sound like someone who wants a niche market, but you have to remember, such games do exist.
All games are made for gamers by gamers, the business end doesn't interfere with the creative process (a common misconception). The fact is most people are dumb and having an intellectual idea won't fly with most people.
How else are people supposed to express thier interest for a product that doesn't exist then publicaly stating that they have an interest in said product?
Absent having a ton of money to invest as a principle (and that certainly doesn't describe most people here, I think) and looking for a Developer to take one the project (and then convincing others to invest)....the only venue the average consumer has is to express thier interest publicaly....and hope that someone with the ability to act upon it may find it interesting enough to at least start doing some real market research on it.
Lethargic,
You may want to take a look at Pathfinder Online.....I have a similar sentiment, and it's looking fairly promising to me, so far.
There's nothing wrong with expressing interest in a product. I wish someone would make an MMO with decent people playing it. I just know that won't happen, that any MMO I play will continue to be populated by mental midgets and obnoxious assholes so I just don't play. Nobody owes me the game I want to play. I can still want it, I just know that it won't happen.
Express all the interest you want, just don't pretend that anyone owes you the game you want. Lots of people do that. Lots of people here act like someone ought to make the game they want, just because they want it, they deserve to b e treated special because they woke up this morning.
It just ain't so.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You've just described supply and demand, which is business 101. When there's demand a smart business will create a supply to meet it. It's not about being "owed"... In fact, you're not owed ANY game on the market. They're not created as a right, it's a form of entertainment; not sure where you were going with that one.
I'd also like to add that the "obnoxious mental midgets" you describe are much more commonplace in today's standard cookie-cutter MMO model. They were much less common in EQ or even FFXI, because you had to work together to get anywhere, and the morons were weeded out fairly early in the game. Either way, an MMO's developer can't really control the people buying and playing the game, so that's not really the same ballpark as creating a game to meet the rising demand of consumers.
Of course, but the point was, it's one thing to say "wouldn't it be great if someone would make this game" and lots of people agreed and a developer came by and saw all the interest and decided to take a chance on making such a game. However, that's not what many people are saying. Many people don't have reasonable expectations, they want what they want and according to them, they're entitled to get it. How many people do you see that whine "waaah, it's unfair I don't get my OWPvP perma-death game! Give it to me!" They don't understand the economics of business, they just want to be given their dream game right now.
No, they can't, which is why it will remain a fantasy. The simple fact is, back in the UO and EQ days, the MMO community was made up almost exclusively of a particular "type" of person, the geek or the nerd. They were the only ones that had access to the computers powerful enough to run the games and the high speed Internet connections necessary to connect to them. Because people had the same general interests, you didn't have as many conflicts and you had a single widespread community instead of the dozens of disparate communities that you have today. Now that games have gone mainstream, you can never put the genie back in the bottle.
That said though, I'd really love to have a game where people don't spam the chat channels with fart jokes, where people understand how to type in English and don't think "u" is a word, etc. Those people ruin every bit of enjoyment I get out of an MMO and are the primary reason I want to solo all the time. I know it won't happen but I can dream.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I agree, and I'll concede that many gamers do tend to whine about the games that are available. It seems that most people want the product of their dreams but aren't willing to put in the time and work necessary to learn how to program or create 3D models, or AI scripts, etc. It just seemed like you were lumping me into that category, so I felt a need to be defensive to a point. I'll admit my major isn't in game design, rather it's marketing and economics. I've been considering going on to grad school for game design/CS or something along those lines, but that's still a year away or so.
It may be just a pipedream, but I do hope for a new EQ with the original gameplay model. Maybe someday I'll help create it.
People don't even need to learn how to create games, they just have to understand how and why they are made and have realistic expectations about why games come out the way they do. If one guy wants a particular game, he's got no shot in hell of getting it made. If 100,000 people want the same kind of game, we'll talk. It's about the numbers, not about the fervor that gets games made. People need to understand that no matter how much they want a game made, it's the money and the number of demonstrable financial supporters that determine what actually gets produced.
Further, people need to get over the idea that anything that happens on this forum means a damn thing. MMMORPG.com is a drop of piss in a bucket compared to the mainstream video game audience. We just don't matter. Sure, there are lots of fanatics here, but fanatics don't make games successful, it's a ton of people paying a ton of money for a long, long time that matter. That's the people who games are made for. That's reality.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
True, but the thing is, there ARE a lot of people that want this type of game. I'm not the first person bringing it up, especially considering how many people in this thread alone are for it. You have to ask yourself, if the ONLY way to make games and be successful is to make them WoW-like, why was EQ successful enough to merit sequels? There's another EQ game supposedly being produced as well. (EQNext) It's an obviously recurring theme throughout multiple forums, and where else are gamers that want games to be made supposed to let their voices be heard? The only other option really is Kickstarter and that only really works for games already posed.
There's already credible evidence supporting my claim that a group-based MMO definitely has a place in the market and enough consumers want it to warrant its creation. Granted these forums alone won't mean much in the grand scheme, but any intelligent dev prospecting for game ideas would surf multiple forums including ones such as mmorpg.com, so I'm not sure that's completely accurate either. The only reason games are being made to cater to the solo player as far as MMORPGs now is because WoW is the new gold standard and they did so. Everyone wants to be at the top of the heap, but people need to remember that not everyone can be, and everything has its place. To be honest all "WoW-killers" that follow the same gameplay model end up failing. The only way to break away from that trend is to find one's own niche, and what better niche to follow than another already established and successful game style? After all, WoW really became popular in the first place because of EQ's success, and EQ had at its peak almost a half a million subs. Now, that's no 12 million or whatever WoW reached at its peak, but like I said, games shouldn't all strive to be WoW. They should find their market and cater to it. After all, having a substantial market share is definitely preferable, capitalwise, to attempting to take over a more successful competitor's market share and failing.
@Cephus,
It's true that no experienced enterprise is going to take the comments from a few posters on any forum as sufficient evidence of a market to start funding and building a major project. However the idea for what to start to do real market research has to start from somewhere. That can be completely internal or it can come from direct customer feedback or it can come from industry/hobby specific forums like this one. I see that in my own industry. Because actual market research can be resource and cost intensive you can't do it on everything. You've got to direct it toward some concepts that you suspect MIGHT be viable.
However identifying underserved market segments or unfullfilled demands IS your best chance for success in a crowded market. Otherwise you are left with trying to out-execute established players at things they are already fairly expert at executing and fighting against thier established brand recognition in thier own market. That's generaly a loosing proposition.
In regards community...you are correct that a Developer can't litteraly choose which consumer purchases thier product. However that does not mean the Developer is absolutely powerless in the type of of community they end up with. There is ALOT they can do to influence thier games community....from the type of game and mechanics they design...to thier effort in enforcement of TOS.... to the tone and attitude they adopt in communications to consumers....to how and where they market thier product.
I still don't entirely agree with this. It actually brings to mind the whole Bioware/EA thing, that once upon a time Bioware used to make great games, they used to spend their time perfecting those games until they were ready to be released. They were games that they wanted to make and they wanted to make them the best they could be. Then along came EA, the big business, the people with all the cash to throw around, the people who decided when a game was to be released and in what state. So we get the mess that was ME3's ending, or the horrible SW:TOR, and we also get the founders of Bioware deciding to call it a day and move on.
If you have a dedicated group of people wanting to make a game to the best of their ability, then no amount of money, market research or anything else will stop them creating that game. When the money, research and everything else comes before the game then the game, and the company as a whole, suffers.
Work with a large company that cares more about the money it's making and you'll see the same games created time and again as they try and take a share of whatever is popular. If the company, however, is more interested in the craft of making great games - companies such as pre-EA Bioware, Rockstar and IO Interactive - then you'll see a more original quality product.
I agree. That's why I'm so into Kickstarter, and why I suspect it might become a huge format soon for making games. I think it's a great idea personally-gamers can be the ones directly funding the games that are being made, and feel like they're more integral in the process than simply consumers. The devs love it because they don't have a corporate overlord breathing down their necks to meet certain criteria or deadlines, giving them more creative flexibility. And the gamers love it because the games they actually WANT are being made.
I think it won't change a thing. Lots of people may fund the initial development of a game, but it takes years to develop a game and even when you're done, it still takes tons of money to keep the game running. Many people who throw a couple of bucks toward a game today may not even be playing MMOs in 5 years. Their tastes may change. Plus the fact, a lot of the people putting projects up on Kickstarter are usually not proven companies with a track record of excellence, people may hate what they end up producing, no matter what promises have been made.
I think Kickstarter is a good idea for funding products in the short term. Things that may or may not ever come out somewhere down the line though... not so much.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Actually, a Kickstarter beneficiary is contractually obligated to complete the product. However, I think it depends on the type of game being made. An MMORPG wouldn't be a good fit for a Kickstarter project just because of the sheer millions of dollars required for infrastructure and design. Single player games, especially in certain styles, are quite feasible for a medium like Kickstarter to facilitate funding. I used Wasteland 2 as an example, and it's being created by the founder of Interplay and inXile, Brian Fargo. That's a pretty proven track record, if you ask me.
To be honest the main aspect affecting the polish on a game is time. You put more dollars into the pot to buy more people's time, thus shortening the time required to create the product. But if you have a small team of devoted devs that aren't being stressed out by a large capital provider, they can create the game they really want to make. That makes them a little more inclined to put in the extra hours and be completely devoted to their project. These are actually some of the reasons Fargo himself went through Kickstarter.
@Lethargic,
I think you have the right of it, Kickstarter is a wonderful development for smaller types of projects and games. I think we'll see alot of cool things come out of it in that arena...and some of them may even become quite popular/succesfull (doubt any corporate entities would have funded Minecraft for example, had it needed any funding, or expected it to become as popular as it has). Alot of smaller, simpler projects really don't take much cash at all to bring to fruition.
For MMO's, I think where you'll see it usefull is as a vehicle to demonstrate to investors that there is sufficient interest in the project to justify investment (the way PFO has used it) or to bridge the gap if there is a budget shortfall in the project and you just need a little bit more to bring it to completion. It could also be used as a from of pre-beta advertisement for a game that doesn't really need the finances but wants to build some audience attachment to the project before rolling into beta.
In those ways, I think it can be very powerfull. For example, it one thing to walk into an investor meeting with some purchased market research that X number of people answered a survey saying they would be interested in the game you are building, it's quite another when you walk into that same meeting and show that you were able to raise $300k in 30 days from thousands of interested future clients opening up thier wallets and donating money because they want to see your product built. Answering a survey doesn't require much commitment from a customer. Actually opening up your wallet and paying out $30, $50 or $100 for a product that isn't even built yet.....nothing is going to speak louder to an investor about customer interest then that.
Yeah, I could see that. I think the main barrier would be introductory financing to show to other devs to get more funding. The only problem I can see with this kind of system is the fact that those devs will want to put their hands into the project, and potentially ruin what the gamers helped initially fund. However, if they had a clause in the Kickstarter contract that any outside developer dollars would create only a limited partnership and wouldn't give them access to the game's rights, it might work.
I think a lot of devs are greedy, unfortunately, simply because they're a business enterprise and that's the nature of the beast. I remain optimistic, however, that this kind of program can be a huge stepping stone on the path to getting MMORPGs back to their former glory.