Developers now have zero imagination and this is great for the 80% of the population with zero imagination. We have to wait for a company with brains that create something amazing. Will happen sooner or later.
Yes, I hope it will happen more sooner than later.
I think one thing people needs to realize is that the fact that a part of the people playing this genre wants something more engaging and complex than all those copies of the same boring combat-oriented themeparks, doesn't mean that we want ALL games to be like that, but rather have the CHOICE to play something more complex. At least it's the way I feel. No need to hurt one "side" or the other, isn't it?
And speaking about complexity.... anyone here played a roguelike RPG? What I mean is, it sure is a dungeon-crawler game, but it has a lot of depth into it starting from something that simple. We need to think outside of the box more often, but lazy developers that doesn't have the imagination to create something interesting makes it very difficult for people used to those simple copy games we have now.
"You can design and render the most amazing looking room in a game, photo realistic even, but what use is it to the players apart from the odd glance?
...
Take for example UO back in the day, people sitting in the tavern, beverages and food are placed on the table, a friendly game of chess is played, a pleasant tune is performed by someone in the corner. " I find these two examples disturbingly similar. In the first the graphics are useless, in the second the activities are useless because they don't speak to a higher goal. They aren't games/patterns, but simply window-dressing.
I take it you haven't played UO, as each of those features are far from window-dressing. Drinks in UO can restore stamina or get a player drunk. Drinks can be poured from jugs and bottles into glasses and mugs, as further accents to the roleplay aspect. Food restores stamina based on the size and type of food. Food and drink can also be poisoned... an effective way to take care of a mark without all that messy swordplay. The chess, checkers, backgammon and mahjongg sets are real. Players can actually sit and play a game of chess together while hanging out at a tavern. And that pleasant tune can very often come in handy. A good bard can play music that will prevent or break up fights, so an altercation can be stopped even before it is started.
These items and features exist for atmosphere, roleplay and game functionality.
If the whole point is to use drinks to restore stamina, get a player drunk, or have some effect on the toon, you do NOT need movable jugs & bottles. Pouring & moving items are just distractions.
WOW has all kind of drinks (including crafted potions & stuff) that can do all kind of things and you don't need actually bottom/glass objects on tables to do so.
That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
In order to explain further, I would need to know which aspect you have the most trouble understanding - roleplay or sandbox gameplay
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Originally posted by Jordi85 Yes, I hope it will happen more sooner than later.
I think one thing people needs to realize is that the fact that a part of the people playing this genre wants something more engaging and complex than all those copies of the same boring combat-oriented themeparks, doesn't mean that we want ALL games to be like that, but rather have the CHOICE to play something more complex. At least it's the way I feel. No need to hurt one "side" or the other, isn't it?
And speaking about complexity.... anyone here played a roguelike RPG? What I mean is, it sure is a dungeon-crawler game, but it has a lot of depth into it starting from something that simple. We need to think outside of the box more often, but lazy developers that doesn't have the imagination to create something interesting makes it very difficult for people used to those simple copy games we have now.
I don't think the devs are lazy. Some of them just creates the game they want but most are forced by the publishers to make games a certain way. Try to make publishers like EA or Atari cough up 80 M$ to make a something that they are not sure will sell.
Of course is they tricking themselves because people doesn't seem to buy the newer games that are same as the older ones.
Our hope are to smaller companies, like Arena net and 38 studio, if someone makes a succesful different game they rest will follow. Publishers only look on Wow and thinks that combat is the only thing that will sell.
Originally posted by LynxJS That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
In order to explain further, I would need to know which aspect you have the most trouble understanding - roleplay or sandbox gameplay
They are not the same, you can make a sandbox game without roleplaying or a RPG game that is as far from a sandbox as possible.
The opposite to roleplaying is more combat than themepark. Choices are good for RPG, that is true but what really makes roleplaying easier is the more the world looks and feels alive. Stuff like birds bursting of from the trees when a non ranger tries to sneak under them actually makes roleplaying easier because it makes the world feels more alive.
When the characters and npcs feels like cardboard cut outs on a movie set it is really hard to roleplay, no matter if the game is a sandbox or themepark.
Either a) these items are not essential (or even a distraction) to a hack-n-slash game, or b) it can be done WITHOUT movable objects with a much better interface. 1) Very few RP in MMOs anyway. It is probably a waste of resources to great a complex system so that people can just move plates around to RP. 2) What interesting things? There is no interesting thing you cannot create/use with just an inventory interface. 3) What communication? It is 10x easier to just chat or vent, then trying to put something on a virtual table and get people to see it. 4) Disbursement of what? In-game mail/trade windows are much more secure for disbursing stuff 5) You don't need movable objects to trade. There are in-game trade interface (much easier to use) for it. 6) Display of what? All you get is distractions. There is no in-game function that really requires the ability to move plates & glasses around on a table.
This post plainly demonstrates, for all to see, everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.
Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver.
Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,
Either a) these items are not essential (or even a distraction) to a hack-n-slash game, or b) it can be done WITHOUT movable objects with a much better interface. 1) Very few RP in MMOs anyway. It is probably a waste of resources to great a complex system so that people can just move plates around to RP. 2) What interesting things? There is no interesting thing you cannot create/use with just an inventory interface. 3) What communication? It is 10x easier to just chat or vent, then trying to put something on a virtual table and get people to see it. 4) Disbursement of what? In-game mail/trade windows are much more secure for disbursing stuff 5) You don't need movable objects to trade. There are in-game trade interface (much easier to use) for it. 6) Display of what? All you get is distractions. There is no in-game function that really requires the ability to move plates & glasses around on a table.
This post plainly demonstrates for all to see everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.
Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver.
Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,
- Shijeer
Players do not really want 'distractions'. They want 'alternatives'. If a feature is just meant to distract the pleayers then it is basicly fluff. It might be cute fluff but ultimately it will not make the gameplay itself more insteresting for long. What is needed is an actual 'alternative' to the repetitve content that you find boring. If you just want to be distracted the devs can show you pictures of kittens playing.
So 'moving plates' by itself is a boring distraction. 'Moving plates' as part of a owneership/alignment/custom crafting system is an alternative.
I want to add to this but Loke and Torik are hitting on many of the points I have so I'll just chime in to voice my support of the things they're saying.
Oh and just to add for Shijeer that the type of gamer you mention in your last post is in the majority which unfortunately is stagnating MMO creativity. The worst is those in that group who feel the need to get vocal when someone suggests different ways of play of which they do not approve. They launch into attack mode trying to discredit it when they have a full host of games that they can choose from where they don't have to be "inconvenienced". Hopefully some of the bigger dev companies will stop listening to them and go back to letting creativity work and worlds to be created.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
"You can design and render the most amazing looking room in a game, photo realistic even, but what use is it to the players apart from the odd glance?
...
Take for example UO back in the day, people sitting in the tavern, beverages and food are placed on the table, a friendly game of chess is played, a pleasant tune is performed by someone in the corner. " I find these two examples disturbingly similar. In the first the graphics are useless, in the second the activities are useless because they don't speak to a higher goal. They aren't games/patterns, but simply window-dressing.
I take it you haven't played UO, as each of those features are far from window-dressing. Drinks in UO can restore stamina or get a player drunk. Drinks can be poured from jugs and bottles into glasses and mugs, as further accents to the roleplay aspect. Food restores stamina based on the size and type of food. Food and drink can also be poisoned... an effective way to take care of a mark without all that messy swordplay. The chess, checkers, backgammon and mahjongg sets are real. Players can actually sit and play a game of chess together while hanging out at a tavern. And that pleasant tune can very often come in handy. A good bard can play music that will prevent or break up fights, so an altercation can be stopped even before it is started.
These items and features exist for atmosphere, roleplay and game functionality.
If the whole point is to use drinks to restore stamina, get a player drunk, or have some effect on the toon, you do NOT need movable jugs & bottles. Pouring & moving items are just distractions.
WOW has all kind of drinks (including crafted potions & stuff) that can do all kind of things and you don't need actually bottom/glass objects on tables to do so.
That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
In order to explain further, I would need to know which aspect you have the most trouble understanding - roleplay or sandbox gameplay
The funny thing about UO, is considering it was an experiment, it spearheaded the whole genre into the bloodstream of the gaming market. The thing that made it so great was it's simplicity. It had no "endgame" it had no "lens flare fest". You had choice... you did what you wanted and with each thing there was to do it had a minor system. I mean ffs... you could DYE things in the game. That was huge for me... and a beef vs. many games, MANY YEARS after that. This "experiment" was more functional than most MMO's were/are. Even it's character progression system hasn't been touched on hardly at all... at least until FFXIV (speculation but sounds similar from what I've read) OVER TEN YEARS LATER!
Basically EQ mainstreamed the idea that "This is where the money is at" and the numbers proved it right, so everyone wanted to copy the "Phat Lewtz" and XP/Level Progression system they mainstreamed in a fantasy world setting... hell in most settings. So roleplaying or the trivial things were sacrificed at the expense of the almighty leveling treadmill. It was a race. To be the first, to be the best... not about roleplaying "Luftguard - the Lumberjack who wore womens clothing and skull helms while having a massive phobia of rats." Instead of reading someone's character bio, it was about inspecting their gear and comparing E-peen.
As I said before... the problem is choice.
Whether it be the "lack of" in the functionality of modern MMO's, or people complaining about "soloing" instead of "grouping" when they could still CHOOSE to group, but in the grand spectrum of things its not viable for them when factoring in xp/time to next level. The choice is still there, but it falls on deaf ears.
The choice to Roleplay is still there, but "Eet taikes moar tiem ta mak ogir speek" than it does to say "lol wtf u r nub". People tend to BE the character than ROLEPLAY the character anymore, because they're more worried about the getting the grind to endgame content out of the way than developing a roleplaying reason behind their priest using the power of shadow instead of life.
The choice to grind or quest... it can be done either way in most modern MMORPG's. However, because questing has more reward... most do not see there being a choice. But because the choice exists, it creates a paradox to "sandbox players" who say that the game is just a theme park... yet they could play the game as a sandbox if they CHOSE to, but because the majority choose not to play as they do, they feel they have no choice other than to play how the rest do.
As I said, the problem is choice.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Some of you people remind me of my father when I was a wee lad. He used to say "you don't need air conditioning and power windows, you just need something to get you from point A to point B.
(I never realized until now what a level grinder my father was.)
The thing is, many of us want this interactivity, and for more than one reason. There's roleplay and deeper worldly interaction, sure, but there's also the ability to hide important content and game play inside this interaction. Then there's also the presentation of important game play, where these things can be used to make it more interesting than just "pez dispensers".
Those of you who want bare bones, hey, you got that in several flavors. Many of us want more now.
I remember back in UO I shared a house with another player. He was in a different time zone and we rarely saw each other. We would use a log book to communicate. I'd left the book on a table in the house and each time we played we would leave a short entry about what we did. We decided to turn the house into the headquarters of a guild. Throughout the entire early stages of the guild's creation we would use that book to track our progress. Even a year later that book was sitting on a bookshelf in that same house.
That is interaction and that is how the False Dragon's Alliance (FDA) was created on Chesapeake server in the early days of UO. There is nothing that has been created since then that can possibly match that genuinely personal experience that a simple interactive book created.
And that reminds me of one particular rule, one particular bit of tech required for a truly interactive game. Every object must have a 3D model (or 2D if its a 2D game) so that you can take that object from your inventory and place it in the game world. Think about that for a minute. Only a handful of games have true object persistence and most of them are single player RPG's. In most games items are nothing more than an icon and can't be represented in the game world at all. They can only be sold or discarded, but never dropped. They have no persistence.
I remember back in UO I shared a house with another player. He was in a different time zone and we rarely saw each other. We would use a log book to communicate. I'd left the book on a table in the house and each time we played we would leave a short entry about what we did. We decided to turn the house into the headquarters of a guild. Throughout the entire early stages of the guild's creation we would use that book to track our progress. Even a year later that book was sitting on a bookshelf in that same house.
That is interaction and that is how the False Dragon's Alliance (FDA) was created on Chesapeake server in the early days of UO. There is nothing that has been created since then that can possibly match that genuinely personal experience that a simple interactive book created.
And that reminds me of one particular rule, one particular bit of tech required for a truly interactive game. Every object must have a 3D model (or 2D if its a 2D game) so that you can take that object from your inventory and place it in the game world. Think about that for a minute. Only a handful of games have true object persistence and most of them are single player RPG's. In most games items are nothing more than an icon and can't be represented in the game world at all. They can only be sold or discarded, but never dropped. They have no persistence.
Indeed, it boggles the mind how a simple thing such as an editable book/scroll can open up a whole new dimension of interaction. In fact, I remember clearly using books in UO for all manner of things, from diaries, logbooks to writing and distributing/selling short stories and mad ramblings, codes of honor/guild rules, trade logs even. Such flexibility, such depth within such a simple mechanic. One of my characters was almost fully dedicated to being a scribe, had a study with shelves full of books.
And what we have now ? As you rightfully noted, items don't even have physical forms in-game, they become abstractions, less then symbols... mere signs.
But let us not confuse the layman reader, the topic of 'interactivity' goes far beyond roleplay, think of guilds, ownership, dungeon features, conquest, player housing/construction, branching NPC dialogues, editable/configurable equipment, a combat system beyond that of auto-attacking and pressing numericals, interactive crafting, deep character development, dynamic quest objectives with choices, advanced avatar controls, animated interaction sequences with NPC's and PC's, truly persistent, fluid, changing worlds, -living- worlds... we must do away with the static bull**** that has been the norm for so many years now, we must boldly step forward, change the paradigm, break the orthodoxy !
oh so many things, one must see the big picture, we must lift ourselves to the level of possibilities, if we continue to look from the level of current games we are blind, bound to what we see, we must think with our minds, not with out eyes. Without ideas, the progress is too slow, we are being fed static year after year.
Either a) these items are not essential (or even a distraction) to a hack-n-slash game, or b) it can be done WITHOUT movable objects with a much better interface. 1) Very few RP in MMOs anyway. It is probably a waste of resources to great a complex system so that people can just move plates around to RP. 2) What interesting things? There is no interesting thing you cannot create/use with just an inventory interface. 3) What communication? It is 10x easier to just chat or vent, then trying to put something on a virtual table and get people to see it. 4) Disbursement of what? In-game mail/trade windows are much more secure for disbursing stuff 5) You don't need movable objects to trade. There are in-game trade interface (much easier to use) for it. 6) Display of what? All you get is distractions. There is no in-game function that really requires the ability to move plates & glasses around on a table.
This post plainly demonstrates, for all to see, everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.
Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver.
Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,
- Shijeer
Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.
The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.
And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).
That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
RP is boring. Almost no one is doing it and it is inefficient. With a potion interface, i can drink with a simple hot button. Trying to click click and click & manipulate to drink .. is just not fun if you have to do it again and again. There is a reason why games don't do that anymore even though the technology is there.
I have done table top D&D before and modern hack-n-slash games is 10x more entertaining. Look at the other threads about RPing .. it has fallen out of fashion for a long long time.
Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.
The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.
And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).
Fair enough, I'm not suggesting that every game should cater to my will and mine alone, opinions differ, perceptions of fun differ, everything is subjective. However, that being said I do believe strongly that the industry has become exceedingly shallow over the past 6 or so years, diversity is the only way to progress, both for -my- type of game and -yours-.
I call for a change of focus from simply listening to a story to being able to affect it in a meaningful way. As it is, the story is interactive in the same way as a book is interactive by means of turning pages, only the page turning takes the form of running to the next objective, killing the target and clicking on the next NPC. Surely this cannot satisfy you, surely you also crave for something more. Of course if playing an MMO is like playing a handheld in a bus to pass the time for you, its a different story.
Even then, I feel the need to stress that interactivity can improve a hack-and-slash game just as well as any other, the actual style of the basic gameplay is irrelevant. In fact many of the notable hack-and-slash games became renown precisely because they introduced new, clever and fun ways to -interact- with the game environment. On the basic level its things like being able to pick up and switch weapons, to open doors with keys, to solve a puzzle. etc. to use different skills and abilities, to dispose of enemies in unique ways, interactivity has improved -your- type of game just as much and has the potential to in the future. Surely you remember how most games were on the C64 and the NES.
You should do well to dismiss the assumption that complexity/depth/interactivity must equal boredom, or that they will necessarily detract from the gameplay you prefer. Of course they can, but if done right they serve only to enrich and improve ! Wishing to keep it 'dumbed down' as it is, that's silly. If you want pure hack-and-slash, there are MMO's like Draconica and 2Moons, those have a place yes, but surely the genre can be so much more then a glorified MMarcade.
That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
RP is boring. Almost no one is doing it and it is inefficient. With a potion interface, i can drink with a simple hot button. Trying to click click and click & manipulate to drink .. is just not fun if you have to do it again and again. There is a reason why games don't do that anymore even though the technology is there.
I have done table top D&D before and modern hack-n-slash games is 10x more entertaining. Look at the other threads about RPing .. it has fallen out of fashion for a long long time.
That is your personal opinion, but not necessarily the opinion of everyone else.
Any the only reason why RP has "fallen out of fashion" is because the newer games mostly ignore it. They barely touch features to facilitate and promote RP. Everything is static and the same. Everyone wears the exact same thing with the exact same colors. There's barely any customization and personalization. That's why RP is so lacking, because the tools to enhance it are practically void in most MMOs today, causing the people who enjoy it to either give up, or move to more supportive channels to RP over.
Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.
The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.
And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).
Fair enough, I'm not suggesting that every game should cater to my will and mine alone, opinions differ, perceptions of fun differ, everything is subjective. However, that being said I do believe strongly that the industry has become exceedingly shallow over the past 6 or so years, diversity is the only way to progress, both for -my- type of game and -yours-.
I call for a change of focus from simply listening to a story to being able to affect it in a meaningful way. As it is, the story is interactive in the same way as a book is interactive by means of turning pages, only the page turning takes the form of running to the next objective, killing the target and clicking on the next NPC. Surely this cannot satisfy you, surely you also crave for something more. Of course if playing an MMO is like playing a handheld in a bus to pass the time for you, its a different story.
Even then, I feel the need to stress that interactivity can improve a hack-and-slash game just as well as any other, the actual style of the basic gameplay is irrelevant. In fact many of the notable hack-and-slash games became renown precisely because they introduced new, clever and fun ways to -interact- with the game environment. On the basic level its things like being able to pick up and switch weapons, to open doors with keys, to solve a puzzle. etc. to use different skills and abilities, to dispose of enemies in unique ways, interactivity has improved -your- type of game just as much and has the potential to in the future. Surely you remember how most games were on the C64 and the NES.
You should do well to dismiss the assumption that complexity/depth/interactivity must equal boredom, or that they will necessarily detract from the gameplay you prefer. Of course they can, but if done right they serve only to enrich and improve ! Wishing to keep it 'dumbed down' as it is, that's silly. If you want pure hack-and-slash, there are MMO's like Draconica and 2Moons, those have a place yes, but surely the genre can be so much more then a glorified MMarcade.
- Shijeer
Sure. New ways to interact can even improve hack-n-slash gameplay but remember that that gameplay is very focus. Not ANY interaction will enhance it. In fact, many (such as requiring the user to do a lot of non-combat related manipulation of objects) will detract from it.
However, things like environmental kills, new type of skills & combos can enhance hack-n-slash gameplay. In fact, I belieev Diablo 3 will have a lot of these new ideas.
And surely there are other types of MMOs out there .. Bioware is doing a story driven one (and not hack-n-slash loot focused one).
However, my main points remain ...
a) lots of MMOs are hack-n-slash-loot based (wow, lotro, aion, even DDO) and let's not delude ourselves to pretend they are trying to be something else.
b) There is a large audience cares little about anything else. Heck, they won't even appreciate DIFFICULT hack-n-slash (note the unpopularity of OCCULUS in wow, and how it is nerfed).
c) As a result, don't be surprise if few developers would focus on enhancing interactivity .. beyond combat.
And before you ask why, the psychology of hack-n-slash games are very obvious. People do NOT crave a complex, or realistic environment .. they crave an environment where they are powerful. Repetition is ok (note that people spent HOURS playing slot machines) as long as a PROBABLISTIC reward is there .. there is a HUGE literature on this kind of psychology.
Sure. New ways to interact can even improve hack-n-slash gameplay but remember that that gameplay is very focus. Not ANY interaction will enhance it. In fact, many (such as requiring the user to do a lot of non-combat related manipulation of objects) will detract from it. However, things like environmental kills, new type of skills & combos can enhance hack-n-slash gameplay. In fact, I belieev Diablo 3 will have a lot of these new ideas. And surely there are other types of MMOs out there .. Bioware is doing a story driven one (and not hack-n-slash loot focused one). However, my main points remain ... a) lots of MMOs are hack-n-slash-loot based (wow, lotro, aion, even DDO) and let's not delude ourselves to pretend they are trying to be something else. b) There is a large audience cares little about anything else. Heck, they won't even appreciate DIFFICULT hack-n-slash (note the unpopularity of OCCULUS in wow, and how it is nerfed). c) As a result, don't be surprise if few developers would focus on enhancing interactivity .. beyond combat. And before you ask why, the psychology of hack-n-slash games are very obvious. People do NOT crave a complex, or realistic environment .. they crave an environment where they are powerful. Repetition is ok (note that people spent HOURS playing slot machines) as long as a PROBABLISTIC reward is there .. there is a HUGE literature on this kind of psychology.
As I mentioned before a number of times in this thread, In no way do I call for devs to reinvent existing games or even to give much thought to altering them in any radical way. What I am aiming at here is future development and breaking the current trend, that which will shape said development. As far as not all modification improving the game, certainly, funny to note though that while gamers often resist upcoming changes, upon their arrival do find them pretty cool in many a case.
Too many MMO's are hack-and-slash based and ,judging by their following, are doing a pretty good job at it. However, this very point is my problem, their overwhelming popularity is suffocating the market and stalling creativity, diversity and ultimately, choice. I know there are many others that feel the same way, furthermore, I feel there is an extensive untapped minority within current hack-and-slash games don't even know they would actually prefer -our- type of game, being new they don't know anything else is possible, one cant escape a prison if unaware of its existence.
I'm not saying that I know more about what people like/want then the people, all I'm suggesting is opening the eyes to see the possibilities, the alternatives, a different perspective for once. Being open to new experiences. Indeed making it possible for the alternative to prosper. Currently, pretty much having only indie games on the 'other side' it seems unfair. One 'side' is underrepresented. AAA titles against devs with hardly any financial backing. One could argue that it's natural, the supply is only reacting to the demand, but in the case of MMO's, a relatively young industry, the devs are the ones calling the shots at this stage. In short, we play what we get and get what we play, can you see the problem ?
Also I feel I must appologize for my previous illconvieved and mostly groundless insults, I was merely working with the information I had at my disposal, ignoring the person behind it, for some reason I found one of your posts so oppositionalistic it seemed as though deliberately aggressive. A lapse in judgement that became apparent upon your reasonable reply.
... that the more "action craving type can simply choose not to play."
That said, I agree and I'm glad you called out and expanded on the "plates in a tavern" thing... It was an obvious attempt to deliberately avoid the big picture, by focusing attention on one tiny example. Or maybe that person just couldn't see the big picture.
It is kinda sad when all someone can get out of a discussion about more interaction on a "world-wide" scale in MMOs is "why would I want to move plates on a table?". Sad, but perhaps also indicative of why so many so-called "casual gamers" want everything "easier and less complex".
The actual question is whether there actually is a 'big picture' present. 'Moving plates' has a deeper meaning if it is part of a 'bigger picture'. If you move plates just to move plates then it is nothing but cute fluff. Often one cannot see the bigger picture because there isn't one (or it might just be a vague idea that has not been implemented),
"Why would I want to move plates on a table?" is a perfectly valid question. If there is a meaningfull answer then 'moving plates' is a meaningfull action. If there is not a meaningfull answer then 'moving plates' is just fluff.
Okay so I'll go ahead and spell out exactly what I mean since I guess I didn't do so well enough the last time.
The bigger picture I refer to is that *it's not all about moving plates on a table*. The implication is that the game - overall - has a higher and more detailed level of interaction, wherein moving plates on a table would be only one very specific example. You give people a level of interaction on a *global* scale... give them the ability to do things and interact with the environment and they will find interesting ways of utilizing that interaction. I believe it's called "emergent gaming".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Developers now have zero imagination and this is great for the 80% of the population with zero imagination. We have to wait for a company with brains that create something amazing. Will happen sooner or later.
Developers now have zero imagination and this is great for the 80% of the population with zero imagination. We have to wait for a company with brains that create something amazing. Will happen sooner or later.
Square-Enix.
It's a little out of place to them as "amazing" in a thread about Interactivity...given that their RPGs are some of the least interactive (and most movie-like) RPGs on the market.
Their art is amazing, and the games are moderately fun (I got nothing against Square-Enix) but in a thread about interactivity they're odd to mention -- unless they're being used as an example of how less interactive games are still quite entertaining, I suppose.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The best mmos will come from companies who have nothing to lose and are willing to take risks. Bigger companies are too scared to take risks becuase they love their money too much.
I agree, big publishers and investors are too tied up in their 'returns on investment', their 'risk analysis' and 'target audience demographics' to deviate from the proven model. Indie developers, however, do have the freedom to not follow dogma, indeed, the only way they can expect to compete at all, we all know what happens to indie WoW clones.
White this gradual movement towards something different, the experimentation, is very much desirable, I fear that even they are bound by similar chains. Perhaps simply due to lack of resources, but its evident that even the indie devs are stuck, on the other side of the same 'static', 'traditional', 'classic' gameplay coin.
More running around and more crafting components do not an interactive world make.
Perhaps I ask too much, perhaps my abstract ramblings are misplaced. Progress, I hope, is happening, albeit slowly but hopefully surely happening. I wish a change in the paradigm, a move towards more meaningful and consequential virtual worlds, arcades have their place, but gaming cannot, -must not- be reduced to being defined that way.
Heh, while I do share your enthusiasm, I myself hope for a less blunt way to handle this very delicate matter here. There is no need to continue on with these artificial 'sides', these dated stereotypes.
Surely games can be designed with many types of gamer in mind, as we discussed previously complexity and depth does not have to get in the way of a more casual player if done right, in fact it can enhance their game just as well. It has to be a choice, once the balance is fine tuned to the point where a game world can accommodate many play styles and does not fall apart, stays competitive and balanced, does not discriminate against the casual nor the hardcore, we know its on the right track.
Is it possible? Perhaps not, perhaps its just idealistic, utopian rambling, but we already see the line between genres and playstyles blur, they are not so distinct as they once were, there is hope yet for a grandiose virtual world with things to offer all of us.
Comments
Yes, I hope it will happen more sooner than later.
I think one thing people needs to realize is that the fact that a part of the people playing this genre wants something more engaging and complex than all those copies of the same boring combat-oriented themeparks, doesn't mean that we want ALL games to be like that, but rather have the CHOICE to play something more complex. At least it's the way I feel. No need to hurt one "side" or the other, isn't it?
And speaking about complexity.... anyone here played a roguelike RPG? What I mean is, it sure is a dungeon-crawler game, but it has a lot of depth into it starting from something that simple. We need to think outside of the box more often, but lazy developers that doesn't have the imagination to create something interesting makes it very difficult for people used to those simple copy games we have now.
I take it you haven't played UO, as each of those features are far from window-dressing. Drinks in UO can restore stamina or get a player drunk. Drinks can be poured from jugs and bottles into glasses and mugs, as further accents to the roleplay aspect. Food restores stamina based on the size and type of food. Food and drink can also be poisoned... an effective way to take care of a mark without all that messy swordplay. The chess, checkers, backgammon and mahjongg sets are real. Players can actually sit and play a game of chess together while hanging out at a tavern. And that pleasant tune can very often come in handy. A good bard can play music that will prevent or break up fights, so an altercation can be stopped even before it is started.
These items and features exist for atmosphere, roleplay and game functionality.
If the whole point is to use drinks to restore stamina, get a player drunk, or have some effect on the toon, you do NOT need movable jugs & bottles. Pouring & moving items are just distractions.
WOW has all kind of drinks (including crafted potions & stuff) that can do all kind of things and you don't need actually bottom/glass objects on tables to do so.
That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
In order to explain further, I would need to know which aspect you have the most trouble understanding - roleplay or sandbox gameplay
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't think the devs are lazy. Some of them just creates the game they want but most are forced by the publishers to make games a certain way. Try to make publishers like EA or Atari cough up 80 M$ to make a something that they are not sure will sell.
Of course is they tricking themselves because people doesn't seem to buy the newer games that are same as the older ones.
Our hope are to smaller companies, like Arena net and 38 studio, if someone makes a succesful different game they rest will follow. Publishers only look on Wow and thinks that combat is the only thing that will sell.
They are not the same, you can make a sandbox game without roleplaying or a RPG game that is as far from a sandbox as possible.
The opposite to roleplaying is more combat than themepark. Choices are good for RPG, that is true but what really makes roleplaying easier is the more the world looks and feels alive. Stuff like birds bursting of from the trees when a non ranger tries to sneak under them actually makes roleplaying easier because it makes the world feels more alive.
When the characters and npcs feels like cardboard cut outs on a movie set it is really hard to roleplay, no matter if the game is a sandbox or themepark.
This post plainly demonstrates, for all to see, everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.
Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver.
Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,
- Shijeer
OP, I just tried the Fallen Earth trial. It has many of the things that you desire. A complex crafting system, complex character development.
Thing is, it's not a successful game.
This means that future devs will steer away from this model.
If gamers don't support your game style, the style you want will dissappear.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
This post plainly demonstrates for all to see everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.
Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver.
Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,
- Shijeer
Players do not really want 'distractions'. They want 'alternatives'. If a feature is just meant to distract the pleayers then it is basicly fluff. It might be cute fluff but ultimately it will not make the gameplay itself more insteresting for long. What is needed is an actual 'alternative' to the repetitve content that you find boring. If you just want to be distracted the devs can show you pictures of kittens playing.
So 'moving plates' by itself is a boring distraction. 'Moving plates' as part of a owneership/alignment/custom crafting system is an alternative.
I want to add to this but Loke and Torik are hitting on many of the points I have so I'll just chime in to voice my support of the things they're saying.
Oh and just to add for Shijeer that the type of gamer you mention in your last post is in the majority which unfortunately is stagnating MMO creativity. The worst is those in that group who feel the need to get vocal when someone suggests different ways of play of which they do not approve. They launch into attack mode trying to discredit it when they have a full host of games that they can choose from where they don't have to be "inconvenienced". Hopefully some of the bigger dev companies will stop listening to them and go back to letting creativity work and worlds to be created.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I take it you haven't played UO, as each of those features are far from window-dressing. Drinks in UO can restore stamina or get a player drunk. Drinks can be poured from jugs and bottles into glasses and mugs, as further accents to the roleplay aspect. Food restores stamina based on the size and type of food. Food and drink can also be poisoned... an effective way to take care of a mark without all that messy swordplay. The chess, checkers, backgammon and mahjongg sets are real. Players can actually sit and play a game of chess together while hanging out at a tavern. And that pleasant tune can very often come in handy. A good bard can play music that will prevent or break up fights, so an altercation can be stopped even before it is started.
These items and features exist for atmosphere, roleplay and game functionality.
If the whole point is to use drinks to restore stamina, get a player drunk, or have some effect on the toon, you do NOT need movable jugs & bottles. Pouring & moving items are just distractions.
WOW has all kind of drinks (including crafted potions & stuff) that can do all kind of things and you don't need actually bottom/glass objects on tables to do so.
That is one of the uses of the bottles, but it is not the point of the bottles... and jugs... and glasses and mugs and flasks and all the other objects that can be manipulated within the game world to create a custom environment or facilitate roleplay.
In order to explain further, I would need to know which aspect you have the most trouble understanding - roleplay or sandbox gameplay
The funny thing about UO, is considering it was an experiment, it spearheaded the whole genre into the bloodstream of the gaming market. The thing that made it so great was it's simplicity. It had no "endgame" it had no "lens flare fest". You had choice... you did what you wanted and with each thing there was to do it had a minor system. I mean ffs... you could DYE things in the game. That was huge for me... and a beef vs. many games, MANY YEARS after that. This "experiment" was more functional than most MMO's were/are. Even it's character progression system hasn't been touched on hardly at all... at least until FFXIV (speculation but sounds similar from what I've read) OVER TEN YEARS LATER!
Basically EQ mainstreamed the idea that "This is where the money is at" and the numbers proved it right, so everyone wanted to copy the "Phat Lewtz" and XP/Level Progression system they mainstreamed in a fantasy world setting... hell in most settings. So roleplaying or the trivial things were sacrificed at the expense of the almighty leveling treadmill. It was a race. To be the first, to be the best... not about roleplaying "Luftguard - the Lumberjack who wore womens clothing and skull helms while having a massive phobia of rats." Instead of reading someone's character bio, it was about inspecting their gear and comparing E-peen.
As I said before... the problem is choice.
Whether it be the "lack of" in the functionality of modern MMO's, or people complaining about "soloing" instead of "grouping" when they could still CHOOSE to group, but in the grand spectrum of things its not viable for them when factoring in xp/time to next level. The choice is still there, but it falls on deaf ears.
The choice to Roleplay is still there, but "Eet taikes moar tiem ta mak ogir speek" than it does to say "lol wtf u r nub". People tend to BE the character than ROLEPLAY the character anymore, because they're more worried about the getting the grind to endgame content out of the way than developing a roleplaying reason behind their priest using the power of shadow instead of life.
The choice to grind or quest... it can be done either way in most modern MMORPG's. However, because questing has more reward... most do not see there being a choice. But because the choice exists, it creates a paradox to "sandbox players" who say that the game is just a theme park... yet they could play the game as a sandbox if they CHOSE to, but because the majority choose not to play as they do, they feel they have no choice other than to play how the rest do.
As I said, the problem is choice.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Some of you people remind me of my father when I was a wee lad. He used to say "you don't need air conditioning and power windows, you just need something to get you from point A to point B.
(I never realized until now what a level grinder my father was.)
The thing is, many of us want this interactivity, and for more than one reason. There's roleplay and deeper worldly interaction, sure, but there's also the ability to hide important content and game play inside this interaction. Then there's also the presentation of important game play, where these things can be used to make it more interesting than just "pez dispensers".
Those of you who want bare bones, hey, you got that in several flavors. Many of us want more now.
Once upon a time....
I remember back in UO I shared a house with another player. He was in a different time zone and we rarely saw each other. We would use a log book to communicate. I'd left the book on a table in the house and each time we played we would leave a short entry about what we did. We decided to turn the house into the headquarters of a guild. Throughout the entire early stages of the guild's creation we would use that book to track our progress. Even a year later that book was sitting on a bookshelf in that same house.
That is interaction and that is how the False Dragon's Alliance (FDA) was created on Chesapeake server in the early days of UO. There is nothing that has been created since then that can possibly match that genuinely personal experience that a simple interactive book created.
And that reminds me of one particular rule, one particular bit of tech required for a truly interactive game. Every object must have a 3D model (or 2D if its a 2D game) so that you can take that object from your inventory and place it in the game world. Think about that for a minute. Only a handful of games have true object persistence and most of them are single player RPG's. In most games items are nothing more than an icon and can't be represented in the game world at all. They can only be sold or discarded, but never dropped. They have no persistence.
Indeed, it boggles the mind how a simple thing such as an editable book/scroll can open up a whole new dimension of interaction. In fact, I remember clearly using books in UO for all manner of things, from diaries, logbooks to writing and distributing/selling short stories and mad ramblings, codes of honor/guild rules, trade logs even. Such flexibility, such depth within such a simple mechanic. One of my characters was almost fully dedicated to being a scribe, had a study with shelves full of books.
And what we have now ? As you rightfully noted, items don't even have physical forms in-game, they become abstractions, less then symbols... mere signs.
But let us not confuse the layman reader, the topic of 'interactivity' goes far beyond roleplay, think of guilds, ownership, dungeon features, conquest, player housing/construction, branching NPC dialogues, editable/configurable equipment, a combat system beyond that of auto-attacking and pressing numericals, interactive crafting, deep character development, dynamic quest objectives with choices, advanced avatar controls, animated interaction sequences with NPC's and PC's, truly persistent, fluid, changing worlds, -living- worlds... we must do away with the static bull**** that has been the norm for so many years now, we must boldly step forward, change the paradigm, break the orthodoxy !
oh so many things, one must see the big picture, we must lift ourselves to the level of possibilities, if we continue to look from the level of current games we are blind, bound to what we see, we must think with our minds, not with out eyes. Without ideas, the progress is too slow, we are being fed static year after year.
- Shijeer
This post plainly demonstrates, for all to see, everything thats wrong with the modern MMO player mentality and attitude. Furthermore, and more importantly also, by proxy, the dev mentality, thus shaping the MMO world now, as well as tomorrow.
Distractions from what ? The next level, The grind, Phat lootz ? what ? Or perhaps you actually do enjoy the monotony, the repetition ? It could be because you know nothing else, regardless, the obvious fact that you quite simply are unable to fathom anything beyond combat in a MMO is likely the root of the problem, and its ok, I understand, I really do, you are entitled to like what you like, my beef is with there being so darn many of you that it would be borderline foolish for an investor to risk deviation from the orthodoxy. Those of us that seek a game not akin to WoW, who see the potential, the vision, the possibilities, are left with indie developers that often simply lack the resources to deliver.
Also, speaking of roguelikes...... ADOM..... a game I habitually return to year after year after year, all the while awaiting JADE with great excitement,
- Shijeer
Distraction from Hack-n-Slash. Don't you get it .. since Diablo, hack-n-slash is the main attraction of MANY games from 3rd person action (God of War, Devil May Cry ... ) to MMORPG.
The charge that i know nothing else is SILLY. Not only I started with UO beta (which is a game that i hate), I have played table top D&D. I just PREFER hack-n-slash with an open mind.
And it is only a "problem" in your mind because you don't like it. For us, there is no problem. WOW is optimizing its gameplay for us (like the new much more efficient dungeon finder tool).
RP is boring. Almost no one is doing it and it is inefficient. With a potion interface, i can drink with a simple hot button. Trying to click click and click & manipulate to drink .. is just not fun if you have to do it again and again. There is a reason why games don't do that anymore even though the technology is there.
I have done table top D&D before and modern hack-n-slash games is 10x more entertaining. Look at the other threads about RPing .. it has fallen out of fashion for a long long time.
Fair enough, I'm not suggesting that every game should cater to my will and mine alone, opinions differ, perceptions of fun differ, everything is subjective. However, that being said I do believe strongly that the industry has become exceedingly shallow over the past 6 or so years, diversity is the only way to progress, both for -my- type of game and -yours-.
I call for a change of focus from simply listening to a story to being able to affect it in a meaningful way. As it is, the story is interactive in the same way as a book is interactive by means of turning pages, only the page turning takes the form of running to the next objective, killing the target and clicking on the next NPC. Surely this cannot satisfy you, surely you also crave for something more. Of course if playing an MMO is like playing a handheld in a bus to pass the time for you, its a different story.
Even then, I feel the need to stress that interactivity can improve a hack-and-slash game just as well as any other, the actual style of the basic gameplay is irrelevant. In fact many of the notable hack-and-slash games became renown precisely because they introduced new, clever and fun ways to -interact- with the game environment. On the basic level its things like being able to pick up and switch weapons, to open doors with keys, to solve a puzzle. etc. to use different skills and abilities, to dispose of enemies in unique ways, interactivity has improved -your- type of game just as much and has the potential to in the future. Surely you remember how most games were on the C64 and the NES.
You should do well to dismiss the assumption that complexity/depth/interactivity must equal boredom, or that they will necessarily detract from the gameplay you prefer. Of course they can, but if done right they serve only to enrich and improve ! Wishing to keep it 'dumbed down' as it is, that's silly. If you want pure hack-and-slash, there are MMO's like Draconica and 2Moons, those have a place yes, but surely the genre can be so much more then a glorified MMarcade.
- Shijeer
RP is boring. Almost no one is doing it and it is inefficient. With a potion interface, i can drink with a simple hot button. Trying to click click and click & manipulate to drink .. is just not fun if you have to do it again and again. There is a reason why games don't do that anymore even though the technology is there.
I have done table top D&D before and modern hack-n-slash games is 10x more entertaining. Look at the other threads about RPing .. it has fallen out of fashion for a long long time.
That is your personal opinion, but not necessarily the opinion of everyone else.
Any the only reason why RP has "fallen out of fashion" is because the newer games mostly ignore it. They barely touch features to facilitate and promote RP. Everything is static and the same. Everyone wears the exact same thing with the exact same colors. There's barely any customization and personalization. That's why RP is so lacking, because the tools to enhance it are practically void in most MMOs today, causing the people who enjoy it to either give up, or move to more supportive channels to RP over.
Fair enough, I'm not suggesting that every game should cater to my will and mine alone, opinions differ, perceptions of fun differ, everything is subjective. However, that being said I do believe strongly that the industry has become exceedingly shallow over the past 6 or so years, diversity is the only way to progress, both for -my- type of game and -yours-.
I call for a change of focus from simply listening to a story to being able to affect it in a meaningful way. As it is, the story is interactive in the same way as a book is interactive by means of turning pages, only the page turning takes the form of running to the next objective, killing the target and clicking on the next NPC. Surely this cannot satisfy you, surely you also crave for something more. Of course if playing an MMO is like playing a handheld in a bus to pass the time for you, its a different story.
Even then, I feel the need to stress that interactivity can improve a hack-and-slash game just as well as any other, the actual style of the basic gameplay is irrelevant. In fact many of the notable hack-and-slash games became renown precisely because they introduced new, clever and fun ways to -interact- with the game environment. On the basic level its things like being able to pick up and switch weapons, to open doors with keys, to solve a puzzle. etc. to use different skills and abilities, to dispose of enemies in unique ways, interactivity has improved -your- type of game just as much and has the potential to in the future. Surely you remember how most games were on the C64 and the NES.
You should do well to dismiss the assumption that complexity/depth/interactivity must equal boredom, or that they will necessarily detract from the gameplay you prefer. Of course they can, but if done right they serve only to enrich and improve ! Wishing to keep it 'dumbed down' as it is, that's silly. If you want pure hack-and-slash, there are MMO's like Draconica and 2Moons, those have a place yes, but surely the genre can be so much more then a glorified MMarcade.
- Shijeer
Sure. New ways to interact can even improve hack-n-slash gameplay but remember that that gameplay is very focus. Not ANY interaction will enhance it. In fact, many (such as requiring the user to do a lot of non-combat related manipulation of objects) will detract from it.
However, things like environmental kills, new type of skills & combos can enhance hack-n-slash gameplay. In fact, I belieev Diablo 3 will have a lot of these new ideas.
And surely there are other types of MMOs out there .. Bioware is doing a story driven one (and not hack-n-slash loot focused one).
However, my main points remain ...
a) lots of MMOs are hack-n-slash-loot based (wow, lotro, aion, even DDO) and let's not delude ourselves to pretend they are trying to be something else.
b) There is a large audience cares little about anything else. Heck, they won't even appreciate DIFFICULT hack-n-slash (note the unpopularity of OCCULUS in wow, and how it is nerfed).
c) As a result, don't be surprise if few developers would focus on enhancing interactivity .. beyond combat.
And before you ask why, the psychology of hack-n-slash games are very obvious. People do NOT crave a complex, or realistic environment .. they crave an environment where they are powerful. Repetition is ok (note that people spent HOURS playing slot machines) as long as a PROBABLISTIC reward is there .. there is a HUGE literature on this kind of psychology.
As I mentioned before a number of times in this thread, In no way do I call for devs to reinvent existing games or even to give much thought to altering them in any radical way. What I am aiming at here is future development and breaking the current trend, that which will shape said development. As far as not all modification improving the game, certainly, funny to note though that while gamers often resist upcoming changes, upon their arrival do find them pretty cool in many a case.
Too many MMO's are hack-and-slash based and ,judging by their following, are doing a pretty good job at it. However, this very point is my problem, their overwhelming popularity is suffocating the market and stalling creativity, diversity and ultimately, choice. I know there are many others that feel the same way, furthermore, I feel there is an extensive untapped minority within current hack-and-slash games don't even know they would actually prefer -our- type of game, being new they don't know anything else is possible, one cant escape a prison if unaware of its existence.
I'm not saying that I know more about what people like/want then the people, all I'm suggesting is opening the eyes to see the possibilities, the alternatives, a different perspective for once. Being open to new experiences. Indeed making it possible for the alternative to prosper. Currently, pretty much having only indie games on the 'other side' it seems unfair. One 'side' is underrepresented. AAA titles against devs with hardly any financial backing. One could argue that it's natural, the supply is only reacting to the demand, but in the case of MMO's, a relatively young industry, the devs are the ones calling the shots at this stage. In short, we play what we get and get what we play, can you see the problem ?
Also I feel I must appologize for my previous illconvieved and mostly groundless insults, I was merely working with the information I had at my disposal, ignoring the person behind it, for some reason I found one of your posts so oppositionalistic it seemed as though deliberately aggressive. A lapse in judgement that became apparent upon your reasonable reply.
- Shijeer
The actual question is whether there actually is a 'big picture' present. 'Moving plates' has a deeper meaning if it is part of a 'bigger picture'. If you move plates just to move plates then it is nothing but cute fluff. Often one cannot see the bigger picture because there isn't one (or it might just be a vague idea that has not been implemented),
"Why would I want to move plates on a table?" is a perfectly valid question. If there is a meaningfull answer then 'moving plates' is a meaningfull action. If there is not a meaningfull answer then 'moving plates' is just fluff.
Okay so I'll go ahead and spell out exactly what I mean since I guess I didn't do so well enough the last time.
The bigger picture I refer to is that *it's not all about moving plates on a table*. The implication is that the game - overall - has a higher and more detailed level of interaction, wherein moving plates on a table would be only one very specific example. You give people a level of interaction on a *global* scale... give them the ability to do things and interact with the environment and they will find interesting ways of utilizing that interaction. I believe it's called "emergent gaming".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Square-Enix.
Square-Enix.
It's a little out of place to them as "amazing" in a thread about Interactivity...given that their RPGs are some of the least interactive (and most movie-like) RPGs on the market.
Their art is amazing, and the games are moderately fun (I got nothing against Square-Enix) but in a thread about interactivity they're odd to mention -- unless they're being used as an example of how less interactive games are still quite entertaining, I suppose.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The best mmos will come from companies who have nothing to lose and are willing to take risks. Bigger companies are too scared to take risks becuase they love their money too much.
I agree, big publishers and investors are too tied up in their 'returns on investment', their 'risk analysis' and 'target audience demographics' to deviate from the proven model. Indie developers, however, do have the freedom to not follow dogma, indeed, the only way they can expect to compete at all, we all know what happens to indie WoW clones.
White this gradual movement towards something different, the experimentation, is very much desirable, I fear that even they are bound by similar chains. Perhaps simply due to lack of resources, but its evident that even the indie devs are stuck, on the other side of the same 'static', 'traditional', 'classic' gameplay coin.
More running around and more crafting components do not an interactive world make.
Perhaps I ask too much, perhaps my abstract ramblings are misplaced. Progress, I hope, is happening, albeit slowly but hopefully surely happening. I wish a change in the paradigm, a move towards more meaningful and consequential virtual worlds, arcades have their place, but gaming cannot, -must not- be reduced to being defined that way.
- Shijeer
A hero must emerge from the darkness...
and slaughter all casual players...
and make a game that's for people that care....
DOWN WITH CASUALS!
FOR THE GAMES!
Originally posted by --Name edited out--
EX-PRO PLAYER IN WOW HERE.THIS GAME IS GOOD! TRUST ME IM USED TO BE THE BEST IN WOW BUT JUST A N00B IN AION. ITS CHALLENGEING , TRY IT!
[Sigh, watch out guys, this dude's pro.]
Heh, while I do share your enthusiasm, I myself hope for a less blunt way to handle this very delicate matter here. There is no need to continue on with these artificial 'sides', these dated stereotypes.
Surely games can be designed with many types of gamer in mind, as we discussed previously complexity and depth does not have to get in the way of a more casual player if done right, in fact it can enhance their game just as well. It has to be a choice, once the balance is fine tuned to the point where a game world can accommodate many play styles and does not fall apart, stays competitive and balanced, does not discriminate against the casual nor the hardcore, we know its on the right track.
Is it possible? Perhaps not, perhaps its just idealistic, utopian rambling, but we already see the line between genres and playstyles blur, they are not so distinct as they once were, there is hope yet for a grandiose virtual world with things to offer all of us.
- Shijeer