The penalty always equates down to time, whether it's high, or low death penalties.
If you die in a game like WoW, you forfeit the time you put into your progress, you have to run back, re-organize, rebuff, etc.
In a more hardcore game where you can lose loot, or experience or even levels, it still just equates to time, because if you die, you have to spend time to regain experience, loot, etc.
The only difference is you lose more time in one than the other, per death.This is offset however, by the point which can be argued that games with less harsh death penalties, tend to throw for difficult, and deadly, situations towards players, at a much higher frequency.
So whether a character dies once and loses a few items or experience that takes me a few hours to get back, or dies a dozen times wiping to a boss in an instance with nothing to show for it but a big repair bill, there is really no difference at the end of the day with regards to how 'hard' or 'easy' the game progression curve is. There has been no progression made for the time spent in both cases. The only difference is that dying to things outside of your own control do not string as much when they occur, and that is the key point as to why so many people prefer lighter death penalties, even if death comes a lot more often, because there are many circumstances where your character will simply die out of no where when you did absolutely nothing wrong, and for most people it's very frustrating to lose control and to be punished for something you didn't even do wrong.
**edit**
The only true exception to the above is if you're playing a game with some form of permanent death penalty, such as permanent death or a permanent and stacking debuff per death. This is not very popular, and with good reason. Even then, it could be argued that you've still only lost time, because you can always roll another character. A true death penalty would be getting locked out of the game if your character died, if you really want to go that far.
So really, most of the people touting their high death penalty games as being so much more "hardcore" are deluding themselves.
Its such a subjective thing, everyone has their own threshold of pain they are willing to tolerate. I recall playing L2 when it first came out, and it was possible to drop one of your equipped items if you died to an NPC. Since gear in L2 was very expensive and hard to obtain, dropping an amulet worth 2M or horrors, your main weapon worth 10M really added some thrill to the game as you frantically ran back to your gravesite hoping someone else didn't loot you first. But the thrill wasn't pleasant for me, so combined with the game's grind I decided to move on. Others stayed and enjoyed it however. I now play EVE, and when I die to either players or NPCs, my ships are destroyed, along with most of the contents and modules. Yet I don't find this to be a problem, I guess because replacing them isn't a problem for me, and I don't mind the time I 'lost" earning the ISK to pay for them in the first place, all part of the game. So I definiely don't care for games where death has zero meaning, I like a small monetary penalty like Aion has (or DAOC had) with some sort of time penalty, not as crazy about experience loss, or worse yet, deleveling like used to happen in Lineage 1.
Item loss is all contextual. For instance the original big 3 UO, EQ, and AC all had items drop on death. In UO (originally) anyone around when you died could loot your corpse of everything which meant gone forever. In AC this only applied to PvP deaths so it was your choice if you wanted that experience.
In UO and AC item dropping on death made it more exciting but that was also because the ease of replacement. Unlike the new MMOs these games weren't based on gear. This meant you could keep a couple armor/weapon sets so that when you died you had replacements to wear when going back to get what you lost (if it was still there). In UO there wasn't epic gear there was just gear. In AC monster loot was random which meant no matter what you were hunting you could find a nice sword or piece of armor. So because the loot was easier to come by it wasn't a big deal, and most people had several backup sets.
In EQ it wasn't as fun and there were special items, this meant dropping one of those severely effected your character.
In WoW it wouldn't work because the whole premise of the game is gear, to build the ultimate set of gear and show it off and run around with it. It takes a long time to get that set and if it dropped everytime you died it would be a pain in the ass.
I personally prefer non gear based games, and not surprisingly I have no issue with items dropping on death or being looted in PvP since that fits into that type of game.
See the rift is happening where the majority of people believe their time is worth more than the devotion to a video game. The majority of people that started playing when the MMORPG era mainstreamed are 10+ years older. They're finishing college, they're married w/kids, they're working for a living... usually a combination of all the above. Again that's the majority. Now if you can do all that and yet have the time and resources to spend re-grinding senslessly... good for you! I wish reality was easier on me to the point I could be back in my early years and spend 3 straight days grinding away with no worries in the world. But to those who bitch and moan about wanting "hardcoar"... think about this for a moment...
People don't make games to fucking please you. They make them for the money... not so you can flash your e-peen to strangers while proclaiming you're the best in that virtual world. That's the ultimate hardcore reality of things. Until whiny "x-x-x-coar" leets start forking out more cash to supplement the fact it's a niche industry, "their" games will never fully thrive, and companies won't be stupid enough to spend millions of bucks just to satisfy a few thousand players for 15 bucks a month. That's the "Hardcore" reality of it kiddos.
There are already games that have death penalties of varying degrees which are reasonable and fleshed out according to their game and how it functions. If you feel there is a game that you like, but you don't feel you're being punished enough... perhaps petition paying them an extra $50 a month so you personally have more of a punishment challenge... they might make an exception for you.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Teh, this topic comes up ever so often. Truth is, 98% of all MMO gamers see it the same way as the OP. But they are not here. Here are those 2% vocal folks who feel great because they want harsh penalities in COMPUTER GAMES, and feel oh so strong because of it.
Because of computer games!
Oh, the irony!
If you want hardcore manly life, go to the Marines and become volunteer in Afghanistan.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If you want hardcore manly life, go to the Marines Army and become volunteer in Afghanistan.
I've spent my 28 months in Afghanistan and dont care to go back a third time. No thanks.
Comparing fighting in a warzone to playing an MMO always make me chuckle.
Thank you. And glad you're back in one piece.
Seconded. Thank you as well. But as most hardcore people will tell you, RL war is no where near as "hardcore", tactical or exciting as a sandbox grind fest... *smirk*
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Heh death penalties. Games can be fun and rewarding with out em while some game will be fun and rewarding with them.
But lets not get over our heads. Death pernalties in the very first mmorpgs where just to deter players until new stuff was added. New mmorpgs comming out tend to have much more content due to how technology has advanced. Death penalty just became a mmorpg feature.
I loved the death penalty in eve. but it works in eve. In darkfall it works. Both games are prime examples for a death penalty to work. sandbox games and you are warned from the moment you make your character.
Still new mmorpgs can live without a death penalty there are plenty of ways to make a game fun without the need of penalization.
I guess it really comes up to on how the game is designed.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Didn't see any point that couldn't be disputed and that hasn't been disputed countless times over the last 10 years. Some people have time to play MMOs while others have so-called "real life" obligations that cause cataclysmic events if they "lose" 5 minutes of playtime due to encounters with content in a game that they can't two-button I win, hehehe.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
This debate again? Same arguments on both sides as always. It's like white noise, it's very soothing.
In a topic that is so subjective, does anyone honestly think they're going to convince the other side they're wrong?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Meridion (should be followed by 'in PvE' but that took too long) Rank 5 - Motivation; While this has been stated countless times, I'll drag it into the ring again. Death penalties that throw you back hours on your advancement curve are just not fun.
I got as far as this before I found something to dispute. This is actually very disputable, because you're basically making pronounciations about a matter of personal taste. You might as well say that farmers should stop growing chillies because no-one really likes very hot food.
(should be followed by 'in PvE' but that took too long) Rank 5 - Motivation; While this has been stated countless times, I'll drag it into the ring again. Death penalties that throw you back hours on your advancement curve are just not fun. Sure, it's a thin line between suspension (because there's something at risk) and frustration (because you lost too much); Still generally speaking, too harsh death penalties are much more likely to drive players away than too soft ones... Rank 4 - Balancing; How many times have you taken encounters that were marked, advertised or looked like you had a real chance of success if you just took care. And how many times have you been slain because "oops, the encounter was just too hard". The boss mob was meant to be for a group of 4, but the quest was advertised as 'solo', for example. So you get the penalty bat just because the devs don't balance their encounters? Rank 3 - Bugs; Just take some seconds and remember some of the (I'm sure there's many) times you stood there and were attacked, killed or chased by an unattackable mob. I remember overland fish in Everquest 2, invisible elites in WoW, through-walls-casting lichs in Tibia. You name it. So first the game cheats and then you get the death penalty on top of it! Great. Rank 2 - Lacking encounter control. This is probably the most common reason harsh death penalties suck in certain games. Because some games work with the 'surprise effect'. You open a door for the first time, or pull a lever or just plain walk around. You enter a door, you don't know whats in there so you try to carefully go in, adding a small army of mobs and there's no way you could have known that in advance. And on top of wiping you get the death penalty cherry; yay. Rank 1 - The inglorious lag; Seriously, how many times have you been wiped, in any game, during lagspikes or because you got kicked from the server. because your healer disconnected or your tank. Any online game, at any time, features this. And what about 'virtual' linkdeads, like RL events, your baby cries, your cat walked over the keyboard, your wife aggroed, the doorbell rings. All this kills hundreds of thousands of players daily. And some games additionally kick yor face with death penalties on top of it. So as much as I appreciate the suspense harsh death penalties create, without superstable, balanced, controllable encounters _not_ having them is the lesser evil, by far. M
They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking. Some wouldn't be considered problems at all=) Thats the thing. TIME is just irrelevant to those who seek harsh penalties. No amount of logic will help them understand except a certain life event that suddenly switches something in their brain and convinces them that losing a few hours of playtime just isn't "worth it" anymore. Sadly many of these people will never have that switch go off, due to personal choice or apathy. A niche play style is just a niche play style. Essentially it is whats irrelevant in the big picture;)
Stop being a condecending jerk. Some people like death penalties because it helps them get into the game more.
In games like WoW, I don't give a care what my character is doing, I feel no attachment, no immersion, no danger, because there is no penalty for anything, no effort I have to put forth to acomplish anything, so I am not interested in the game.
You take DAoC, where a harsh world with a (heavy by today's standards, but light back then) penalty, encouraged you not to die. It wasn't the end of the world, but people didn't just suicide rush encounters. It ADDS to a game, if done right.
Originally posted by Meridion (should be followed by 'in PvE' but that took too long) Rank 5 - Motivation; While this has been stated countless times, I'll drag it into the ring again. Death penalties that throw you back hours on your advancement curve are just not fun.
I got as far as this before I found something to dispute. This is actually very disputable, because you're basically making pronounciations about a matter of personal taste. You might as well say that farmers should stop growing chillies because no-one really likes very hot food.
Exactly. Also, Dave6660 says the same thing. Might be others in this thread as well but these were two that I saw first.
and that's an excellent analogy.
It's so subjective that there is no argument. Some like spicy and some don't. End of subject. On either side.
I can easily see why people like harsh death penalties. And these people are approaching these games with the idea that they want/need them.
but they also need to understand that there are people who not only hate them but just don't require them. Just the idea of failure is enough.
The same goes for the "I only want pvp" against the "I only want pve" crowds. different people. When I see staunch pvp supporters asking "why is it you don't like pvp? Pve doesn't supply the same heart pounding excitiment as pvp" I have to laugh because not every person desire or wants "heart pounding/looking over your shoulder action". Not very person wants to fight computer created opponents either because they generally don't supply heart pounding action.
People are different. That's pretty much it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
(should be followed by 'in PvE' but that took too long) Rank 5 - Motivation; While this has been stated countless times, I'll drag it into the ring again. Death penalties that throw you back hours on your advancement curve are just not fun. Sure, it's a thin line between suspension (because there's something at risk) and frustration (because you lost too much); Still generally speaking, too harsh death penalties are much more likely to drive players away than too soft ones... Rank 4 - Balancing; How many times have you taken encounters that were marked, advertised or looked like you had a real chance of success if you just took care. And how many times have you been slain because "oops, the encounter was just too hard". The boss mob was meant to be for a group of 4, but the quest was advertised as 'solo', for example. So you get the penalty bat just because the devs don't balance their encounters? Rank 3 - Bugs; Just take some seconds and remember some of the (I'm sure there's many) times you stood there and were attacked, killed or chased by an unattackable mob. I remember overland fish in Everquest 2, invisible elites in WoW, through-walls-casting lichs in Tibia. You name it. So first the game cheats and then you get the death penalty on top of it! Great. Rank 2 - Lacking encounter control. This is probably the most common reason harsh death penalties suck in certain games. Because some games work with the 'surprise effect'. You open a door for the first time, or pull a lever or just plain walk around. You enter a door, you don't know whats in there so you try to carefully go in, adding a small army of mobs and there's no way you could have known that in advance. And on top of wiping you get the death penalty cherry; yay. Rank 1 - The inglorious lag; Seriously, how many times have you been wiped, in any game, during lagspikes or because you got kicked from the server. because your healer disconnected or your tank. Any online game, at any time, features this. And what about 'virtual' linkdeads, like RL events, your baby cries, your cat walked over the keyboard, your wife aggroed, the doorbell rings. All this kills hundreds of thousands of players daily. And some games additionally kick yor face with death penalties on top of it. So as much as I appreciate the suspense harsh death penalties create, without superstable, balanced, controllable encounters _not_ having them is the lesser evil, by far. M
5 - This is completely subjective (not indesputable) - I like them, I even support delevelling like in FFXI.
4 - You know that in many cases you can run away, but I do accept that some mobs are ridiculous. Still, this is a design flaw with the encounter as opposed to a fundamental reason to ditch the penalties.
3 - I guess every game has some bugs but perhaps this is just another reason not to accept crappy coding as opposed to ditching the penalties. I see your point, but when I think of FFXI or now Aion, I cannot recall this happens very often at all. I played Vanguard for about 3 months and can't remember if the penalties were big, but I do remember the crashes themselves were really annoying.
2 - seems pretty much the same as 4 - again CC or running is often an option. The main culprit here is crap design, not the penalty itself. A decent game could still have the mob and the penalty, but allow a feasible escape route.
1 - I accept you are pretty much correct with this one although all risks can be mitigated. If you're first in line in baby duties perhaps you shouldn't be playing the MMO or just crafting etc. Lag is a problem, but as a healer I find that you'll usually survive if you spam heals as soon as you realise, and as a non-helaer you should potion spam for the same effect. Still, in any game there are times when you really don't want to leave the keyboard.
The subjective bit is that I'd happily accept a few 'unfair' deaths (and they really aren't that numerous) as opposed to non-stop easy mode. Every game has good and bad points, but a harsh penalty in PvE is a certainly a plus point for ME. I would also accept harsh penalty in PvP but not XP loss as this would be open to abuse.
The same goes for the "I only want pvp" against the "I only want pve" crowds. different people. When I see staunch pvp supporters asking "why is it you don't like pvp? Pve doesn't supply the same heart pounding excitiment as pvp" I have to laugh because not every person desire or wants "heart pounding/looking over your shoulder action". Not very person wants to fight computer created opponents either because they generally don't supply heart pounding action.
People are different. That's pretty much it.
That well, counts for like the whole life. People are different so you let them do what they desire as long as they hurt nobody else.
And that's fine, but if you draw the conclusion that discussing is only worth it when the results are factional changes, you can as well delete your board account now and never come back.
Because yes, it's totally deslusional to think that you change opinions on any matter by debating. At least not when it comes to something so detached from real needs and duties as online gaming. It's still fun to talk about it, actually that's the only incentive there is.
Even more, I personally think these games themselves are not worth discussing at all, because they pretty much all suck when played alone, and all rock when played with the right people. No matter if it's a fleet fight or a molten core raid.
M
EDIT: And jesus christ, stop bashing the 'indiputable', it was just an eye catcher so that people would look into the thread, I guess that worked a bit too well...
Meridion I have only one thing to say DONT FLY WANT YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE. Its the first rule in EVE and if you had stuck with it you might have spared us all this whiny post.
A Harsh death penalty makes weak, whiny and lazy people quit! that is one of the reasons I like them.
Meridion I have only one thing to say DONT FLY WANT YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE. Its the first rule in EVE and if you had stuck with it you might have spared us all this whiny post. A Harsh death penalty makes weak, whiny and lazy people quit! that is one of the reasons I like them.
I bet you haven't even read my original post thoroughly, let alone the rest of the thread. It was about uncontrollable factors in PvE games; And I outlined more than one time how EvE's death penalty is perfectly allright (mainly because any PvE there is 100% controllable)
Comments
The penalty always equates down to time, whether it's high, or low death penalties.
If you die in a game like WoW, you forfeit the time you put into your progress, you have to run back, re-organize, rebuff, etc.
In a more hardcore game where you can lose loot, or experience or even levels, it still just equates to time, because if you die, you have to spend time to regain experience, loot, etc.
The only difference is you lose more time in one than the other, per death.This is offset however, by the point which can be argued that games with less harsh death penalties, tend to throw for difficult, and deadly, situations towards players, at a much higher frequency.
So whether a character dies once and loses a few items or experience that takes me a few hours to get back, or dies a dozen times wiping to a boss in an instance with nothing to show for it but a big repair bill, there is really no difference at the end of the day with regards to how 'hard' or 'easy' the game progression curve is. There has been no progression made for the time spent in both cases. The only difference is that dying to things outside of your own control do not string as much when they occur, and that is the key point as to why so many people prefer lighter death penalties, even if death comes a lot more often, because there are many circumstances where your character will simply die out of no where when you did absolutely nothing wrong, and for most people it's very frustrating to lose control and to be punished for something you didn't even do wrong.
**edit**
The only true exception to the above is if you're playing a game with some form of permanent death penalty, such as permanent death or a permanent and stacking debuff per death. This is not very popular, and with good reason. Even then, it could be argued that you've still only lost time, because you can always roll another character. A true death penalty would be getting locked out of the game if your character died, if you really want to go that far.
So really, most of the people touting their high death penalty games as being so much more "hardcore" are deluding themselves.
Item loss is all contextual. For instance the original big 3 UO, EQ, and AC all had items drop on death. In UO (originally) anyone around when you died could loot your corpse of everything which meant gone forever. In AC this only applied to PvP deaths so it was your choice if you wanted that experience.
In UO and AC item dropping on death made it more exciting but that was also because the ease of replacement. Unlike the new MMOs these games weren't based on gear. This meant you could keep a couple armor/weapon sets so that when you died you had replacements to wear when going back to get what you lost (if it was still there). In UO there wasn't epic gear there was just gear. In AC monster loot was random which meant no matter what you were hunting you could find a nice sword or piece of armor. So because the loot was easier to come by it wasn't a big deal, and most people had several backup sets.
In EQ it wasn't as fun and there were special items, this meant dropping one of those severely effected your character.
In WoW it wouldn't work because the whole premise of the game is gear, to build the ultimate set of gear and show it off and run around with it. It takes a long time to get that set and if it dropped everytime you died it would be a pain in the ass.
I personally prefer non gear based games, and not surprisingly I have no issue with items dropping on death or being looted in PvP since that fits into that type of game.
See the rift is happening where the majority of people believe their time is worth more than the devotion to a video game. The majority of people that started playing when the MMORPG era mainstreamed are 10+ years older. They're finishing college, they're married w/kids, they're working for a living... usually a combination of all the above. Again that's the majority. Now if you can do all that and yet have the time and resources to spend re-grinding senslessly... good for you! I wish reality was easier on me to the point I could be back in my early years and spend 3 straight days grinding away with no worries in the world. But to those who bitch and moan about wanting "hardcoar"... think about this for a moment...
People don't make games to fucking please you. They make them for the money... not so you can flash your e-peen to strangers while proclaiming you're the best in that virtual world. That's the ultimate hardcore reality of things. Until whiny "x-x-x-coar" leets start forking out more cash to supplement the fact it's a niche industry, "their" games will never fully thrive, and companies won't be stupid enough to spend millions of bucks just to satisfy a few thousand players for 15 bucks a month. That's the "Hardcore" reality of it kiddos.
There are already games that have death penalties of varying degrees which are reasonable and fleshed out according to their game and how it functions. If you feel there is a game that you like, but you don't feel you're being punished enough... perhaps petition paying them an extra $50 a month so you personally have more of a punishment challenge... they might make an exception for you.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Teh, this topic comes up ever so often. Truth is, 98% of all MMO gamers see it the same way as the OP. But they are not here. Here are those 2% vocal folks who feel great because they want harsh penalities in COMPUTER GAMES, and feel oh so strong because of it.
Because of computer games!
Oh, the irony!
If you want hardcore manly life, go to the Marines and become volunteer in Afghanistan.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I've spent my 28 months in Afghanistan and dont care to go back a third time. No thanks.
Comparing fighting in a warzone to playing an MMO always make me chuckle.
I've spent my 28 months in Afghanistan and dont care to go back a third time. No thanks.
Comparing fighting in a warzone to playing an MMO always make me chuckle.
Thank you. And glad you're back in one piece.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I've spent my 28 months in Afghanistan and dont care to go back a third time. No thanks.
Comparing fighting in a warzone to playing an MMO always make me chuckle.
Thank you. And glad you're back in one piece.
Seconded. Thank you as well. But as most hardcore people will tell you, RL war is no where near as "hardcore", tactical or exciting as a sandbox grind fest... *smirk*
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Heh death penalties. Games can be fun and rewarding with out em while some game will be fun and rewarding with them.
But lets not get over our heads. Death pernalties in the very first mmorpgs where just to deter players until new stuff was added. New mmorpgs comming out tend to have much more content due to how technology has advanced. Death penalty just became a mmorpg feature.
I loved the death penalty in eve. but it works in eve. In darkfall it works. Both games are prime examples for a death penalty to work. sandbox games and you are warned from the moment you make your character.
Still new mmorpgs can live without a death penalty there are plenty of ways to make a game fun without the need of penalization.
I guess it really comes up to on how the game is designed.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Didn't see any point that couldn't be disputed and that hasn't been disputed countless times over the last 10 years. Some people have time to play MMOs while others have so-called "real life" obligations that cause cataclysmic events if they "lose" 5 minutes of playtime due to encounters with content in a game that they can't two-button I win, hehehe.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
This debate again? Same arguments on both sides as always. It's like white noise, it's very soothing.
In a topic that is so subjective, does anyone honestly think they're going to convince the other side they're wrong?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I got as far as this before I found something to dispute. This is actually very disputable, because you're basically making pronounciations about a matter of personal taste. You might as well say that farmers should stop growing chillies because no-one really likes very hot food.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
They all make complete sense, to normal people that is. But they're completely irrelevant to those who simply don't care that any of those problems could cause a few hours of backtracking. Some wouldn't be considered problems at all=) Thats the thing. TIME is just irrelevant to those who seek harsh penalties. No amount of logic will help them understand except a certain life event that suddenly switches something in their brain and convinces them that losing a few hours of playtime just isn't "worth it" anymore. Sadly many of these people will never have that switch go off, due to personal choice or apathy. A niche play style is just a niche play style. Essentially it is whats irrelevant in the big picture;)
Stop being a condecending jerk. Some people like death penalties because it helps them get into the game more.
In games like WoW, I don't give a care what my character is doing, I feel no attachment, no immersion, no danger, because there is no penalty for anything, no effort I have to put forth to acomplish anything, so I am not interested in the game.
You take DAoC, where a harsh world with a (heavy by today's standards, but light back then) penalty, encouraged you not to die. It wasn't the end of the world, but people didn't just suicide rush encounters. It ADDS to a game, if done right.
I got as far as this before I found something to dispute. This is actually very disputable, because you're basically making pronounciations about a matter of personal taste. You might as well say that farmers should stop growing chillies because no-one really likes very hot food.
Exactly. Also, Dave6660 says the same thing. Might be others in this thread as well but these were two that I saw first.
and that's an excellent analogy.
It's so subjective that there is no argument. Some like spicy and some don't. End of subject. On either side.
I can easily see why people like harsh death penalties. And these people are approaching these games with the idea that they want/need them.
but they also need to understand that there are people who not only hate them but just don't require them. Just the idea of failure is enough.
The same goes for the "I only want pvp" against the "I only want pve" crowds. different people. When I see staunch pvp supporters asking "why is it you don't like pvp? Pve doesn't supply the same heart pounding excitiment as pvp" I have to laugh because not every person desire or wants "heart pounding/looking over your shoulder action". Not very person wants to fight computer created opponents either because they generally don't supply heart pounding action.
People are different. That's pretty much it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
5 - This is completely subjective (not indesputable) - I like them, I even support delevelling like in FFXI.
4 - You know that in many cases you can run away, but I do accept that some mobs are ridiculous. Still, this is a design flaw with the encounter as opposed to a fundamental reason to ditch the penalties.
3 - I guess every game has some bugs but perhaps this is just another reason not to accept crappy coding as opposed to ditching the penalties. I see your point, but when I think of FFXI or now Aion, I cannot recall this happens very often at all. I played Vanguard for about 3 months and can't remember if the penalties were big, but I do remember the crashes themselves were really annoying.
2 - seems pretty much the same as 4 - again CC or running is often an option. The main culprit here is crap design, not the penalty itself. A decent game could still have the mob and the penalty, but allow a feasible escape route.
1 - I accept you are pretty much correct with this one although all risks can be mitigated. If you're first in line in baby duties perhaps you shouldn't be playing the MMO or just crafting etc. Lag is a problem, but as a healer I find that you'll usually survive if you spam heals as soon as you realise, and as a non-helaer you should potion spam for the same effect. Still, in any game there are times when you really don't want to leave the keyboard.
The subjective bit is that I'd happily accept a few 'unfair' deaths (and they really aren't that numerous) as opposed to non-stop easy mode. Every game has good and bad points, but a harsh penalty in PvE is a certainly a plus point for ME. I would also accept harsh penalty in PvP but not XP loss as this would be open to abuse.
There are only three indisputable aspects to life: living, dying, and paying taxes.
Some people find ways out of the third one.
That said, I want a risk to balance my rewards in a game, but it should not be designed to frustrate or infuriate users.
(...)
The same goes for the "I only want pvp" against the "I only want pve" crowds. different people. When I see staunch pvp supporters asking "why is it you don't like pvp? Pve doesn't supply the same heart pounding excitiment as pvp" I have to laugh because not every person desire or wants "heart pounding/looking over your shoulder action". Not very person wants to fight computer created opponents either because they generally don't supply heart pounding action.
People are different. That's pretty much it.
That well, counts for like the whole life. People are different so you let them do what they desire as long as they hurt nobody else.
And that's fine, but if you draw the conclusion that discussing is only worth it when the results are factional changes, you can as well delete your board account now and never come back.
Because yes, it's totally deslusional to think that you change opinions on any matter by debating. At least not when it comes to something so detached from real needs and duties as online gaming. It's still fun to talk about it, actually that's the only incentive there is.
Even more, I personally think these games themselves are not worth discussing at all, because they pretty much all suck when played alone, and all rock when played with the right people. No matter if it's a fleet fight or a molten core raid.
M
EDIT: And jesus christ, stop bashing the 'indiputable', it was just an eye catcher so that people would look into the thread, I guess that worked a bit too well...
Meridion I have only one thing to say DONT FLY WANT YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE. Its the first rule in EVE and if you had stuck with it you might have spared us all this whiny post.
A Harsh death penalty makes weak, whiny and lazy people quit! that is one of the reasons I like them.
I bet you haven't even read my original post thoroughly, let alone the rest of the thread. It was about uncontrollable factors in PvE games; And I outlined more than one time how EvE's death penalty is perfectly allright (mainly because any PvE there is 100% controllable)
M