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Innovation is Over Rated.
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
Let's get one thing completely clear. Most of us don't want innovation. Most of us just want our favorite games with a graphical overhaul. How many times have you heard someone talk about how they just want UO or EQ or AC or <insert old MMO here> with a modern user interface and current gen graphics? Yeah, way to many.
Look at games that did try something new and got slammed hard for it before fading away. Auto Assault, Earth & Beyond, Planetside, just to name a few. Sure, we look back now and give some of the those old games respect, but we sure as hell didn't give them our money now did we? And while I realize that Planetside is still going, it's just a shell of what it could have or, in fact, SHOULD have been.
In short, saying that something isn't innovative enough is the last bastion of people who just want something to bitch about. Both WoW and Darksiders are examples of this. Both games are absolutely flawless, by the numbers games. They both represent the pinnacle of their genre. And both are slammed because they don't innovate. What a crock of bullshit.
You know what? I don't care if a game is derived from another game. I'd rather have a game that's built on a solid foundation than waste money on some overhyped experimental art game. And I'm really tired of hearing people whine about innovation when what they really mean is just the same old clunker, reupholstered with a new paint job.
Comments
Not me, I tried playing AC1 some months back, I liked the game still, but I wanted something new. I was hoping the skeleton staff that Turbine has for AC1 would've put something new in to the game, but nope. It's the same old game. Graphical overhauls aren't always the be all, end all of games just as innovation isn't. So, please stop with the faulty reasoning on your part of pure either-or. Life is rarely that simple.
I think that innovation is very important.
I also think that we expect way too much innovation in every new product.
Evolution is gradual. A monkey didn't just wake up on a boring Tuesday morning and think "Ook. Today, I think I'll walk on TWO legs." .. it's a gradual process.
We don't want a brand new and completely different "innovation" .. we want what we already have (or had) .. we just want it to be better.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Agreed totally.
If you put 3 mildly smart people in a room, that have play a MMO before, for 3 hours, you will generate more ideas (often not thought through) than even Blizzard can implement in a life time.
The key to a successful game is not innovation, but solid implementation, polished and an idea towards details. Occasionally some new ideas help but without a solid team behind them, it is just empty talk on paper.
Just look at how many here have written thousand words essay on the kind of "new" MMO they want. The number of actual implementation (not to mentioned business success) .... ZERO.
You're right and wrong. The thing is, most of us don't know what we want. We can only think of already existing things because we lack the imagination or simply don't know what we like yet. It's the developer's job to show us what we really like, but it won't happen if they just do what the fanbase "wants" them to do. Sometimes people are just ignorant about a subject and base their opinions on false assumptions based on nothing more but stereotypes (or only because it "sounds" bad).
Innovation will bring titles that will not work out, but it will also bring titles that work much better than what we have currently. This is why innovation is important. What we have now is not the Best we can have. There will always be something better. Without innovation, we will never get there.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for something that is average to do better than average.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Heh..All I want is that, before throwing around random stuff about innovation, devs should focus more about simple things like character animations, combat, the world and have a clear direction with their game.
It's not that people don't like innovation, but today's MMOs feel like Frankenstein. Use many pieces from everything and hoping you got something alive there. We just want...natural MMOs.
You've got the right idea here. Innovation is really simple, implementation however is extremely complicated.
Now with 57.3% more flames!
Unpolished innovation is overrated,Yeah the PS3 is more powerful than Xbox 360 but devs can't figure out how to use all its power,AoC has more potential than most game but lack of polish kill it chances to be a big time game.Innovation is great when makers take the time to work out all of the kinks
Don't swing for the fences if you can't hit the ball.
Skill without imagination is called craft. Imagination without skill is called "modern art."
Making a game, much like writing a good story, is a craft. You can include flourishes of imagination here and there to make your game better or to exceed the expectations of your audience, but you need a solid framework to build off of.
Those people that are calling for innovation make it sound like the devs should throw the baby out with the bath water...
"Let's get one thing completely clear. Most of us don't want innovation."
this couldnt be any further from the truth. Humans by nature want some sort of betterment, a progression of sorts. Sure it is debatable what is good or bad progression, but the secret here is to build upon what has been done and take it to a whole new level without loss of the previous design.
I also firmly believe that players want a completely new experience as well...
If MMORPGS could be played with virtual reality goggles and accelerometers, where the traditional mmorpg design was tossed out the window and any player could be what they want to be, that interaction was not purely from keyboard and mouse input... no one would deny this as being bad. In fact i bet most would want this.
the key here is design. Player want good design to accompany it. I certainly do not want another (insert mmorpg) with a graphical overhaul. In fact, screw graphics, without good design they are meaningless.
OP i think you are wrong, completely, and do not understand the importance of innovation, but you do realize that bad innovation also exist. Being different is not good unless the change builds upon the already created foundation.
I LOL'd at this. You've been watching way too much Star Trek. Considering that most of these games focus on violence, making the experience too real would send most people packing almost instantly.
Also, I was there when VR was the big buzzword and everyone thought we'd all be playing games via force feedback gloves and stereoscopic dork hats. The problems of neck, back and eyestrain are more than enough to keep this idea from growing legs, but throw in the fact that you'd be triping over furniture that you couldn't see because you were in the game, and the concept of VR died a very well deserved death. Even now, with all the technology we have to make the sights and sounds as real as possible, we still haven't gotten any closer to making something like what you describe work outside of an amusement park or arcade.
Don't get me wrong, I bought a Wii. Thing is, I hardly ever use it. My Xbox 360 gets more play. Why? because motion control without real forcefeedback doesn't work. It's some nice gimicky technology that you can use at a parties or when you're too drunk to play real games. But stuff like Wii, Project NATAL and that clown dildo thingie that Sony is working on just don't compare with the stuff you would pay per play at Dave & Busters. And to be honest, these devices really do fit with the uber short arcade experience rather than the living room. Novelty tends to wear off after three minutes or so.
But if you really want that kind of thing, there's no reason why you can't already set it up. Head mounted displays have been on the market forever, and so have 3D mouses and gloves. How hard could it be to configure a few scripts so that these devices would work with your favorite MMO? Hell, Flight and driving sim gamers have been doing that forever.
In short, you aren't asking for innovation. You're asking for a new steering wheel. By your logic, making a car that you drive with a joystick would be innovation.
I LOL'd at this. You've been watching way too much Star Trek. Considering that most of these games focus on violence, making the experience too real would send most people packing almost instantly.
Also, I was there when VR was the big buzzword and everyone thought we'd all be playing games via force feedback gloves and stereoscopic dork hats. The problems of neck, back and eyestrain are more than enough to keep this idea from growing legs, but throw in the fact that you'd be triping over furniture that you couldn't see because you were in the game, and the concept of VR died a very well deserved death. Even now, with all the technology we have to make the sights and sounds as real as possible, we still haven't gotten any closer to making something like what you describe work outside of an amusement park or arcade.
Don't get me wrong, I bought a Wii. Thing is, I hardly ever use it. My Xbox 360 gets more play. Why? because motion control without real forcefeedback doesn't work. It's some nice gimicky technology that you can use at a parties or when you're too drunk to play real games. But stuff like Wii, Project NATAL and that clown dildo thingie that Sony is working on just don't compare with the stuff you would pay per play at Dave & Busters. And to be honest, these devices really do fit with the uber short arcade experience rather than the living room. Novelty tends to wear off after three minutes or so.
But if you really want that kind of thing, there's no reason why you can't already set it up. Head mounted displays have been on the market forever, and so have 3D mouses and gloves. How hard could it be to configure a few scripts so that these devices would work with your favorite MMO? Hell, Flight and driving sim gamers have been doing that forever.
In short, you aren't asking for innovation. You're asking for a new steering wheel. By your logic, making a car that you drive with a joystick would be innovation.
Well LOL all you want, but you missed the point. I am pointing to the fact that innovation isnt always in design, but also technology, and technology enables design.
Why did James Cameron wait for so long to do Avatar? Because he was waiting for the technology to let it be possible in the way that he envisioned it. Years ago I was telling an associate that the film industry will have to go 3D to get people back in the theaters, that TVs will have to do the same (since LCD technology did not allow high refresh rates at the time). Well, what are you seeing now? I worked in the film industry before moving into interactive entertainment.
The point is that innovation is needed, constantly. On the legal side you have patents being made left and right that do not allow for too much copying, and on the other side you NEED to keep the market fresh. One of the reasons the video game industry died prior to Atari was because there was NO innovation.
Facts speak louder than opinions.
Right now, NATAL, PS WAND, WIimote, these are all catalyst towards more interactive input. This innovation is needed, it is desired, if it wasnt it wouldnt be popular nor would the industry be investing so much into them. VR is the next thing, the technology isnt ready for it but it is coming, especially for a genre such as the mmorpg which requires a certain level of immersion.
There is a high demand for interactive dynamic worlds in which the player is not limited to a small number of keys on a keyboard. Design, once given the ability to be realized as a reality with the technology, becomes less limited,
In the industry right now we have those known as "feature creeps", they want to toss in all these cool features, but none are really possible with the current technology and budget.
You havent experienced VR yet because it hasnt been done yet. Mock prototypes of it, sure, with low bit graphics and small resolution play, but you havent really experienced it yet. The same goes for truly 3D gaming.
Hope this was educational for ya.
i understand you like WoW and want to defend your favorite game, i get that and i think thats cool. but to say innovation is overrated is just downright stupid, especially in the gaming industry.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
When I played Half Life in 1998 I sure thought "boy this shit is completely overrated".
Oh no, wait. I didnt. My jaw was on the floor the entire time (except in Xen, stupid crap level). =P
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
it is and isnt.... if ppl dont try for better games then we will be stuck with the same old shit forever
guys imagine how cool Pong 2010 would be, geez i wish they didn't innovate.
stupid.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
What's the best selling game right now? Give up?
It's Modern Warfare 2. Yeah, we've never seen that before. Wanna takes bets as to what game will be on the top of the charts when the next GTA game comes out? You wanna tell me that if it wasn't for innovation we'd still be playing the same old shit, but look around. We are playing the same old shit. And it's kind of like giving grandma a boob job. She looks great, but she's still old.
And Avatar? Are you kidding me? Storywise there was absolutely dick original in that movie. The only thing that we hadn't seen before was the special effects. And that seems to be what most of you are not seeing.
BETTER GRAPHICS DO NOT EQUAL INNOVATION. Likewise, playing a driving game with a steering wheel instead of a gamepad is not innovation. Katamari Damacy was innovative. Shadow of The Colosus was innovative. Electroplankton and Fl0w are innovative. Passage is innovative. Love is innovative. The ideas I read on this forum, are just a call for more "immersion." Which basically just means more graphical doodads to showcase that $3000 dollar custom game rig that no one will see because there are no friends to see it. It's kind of hard for one to have friends when one does not leave their parents basement...
It all boils down to the fact that bitching about a lack of innovation, from a community that does nothing to monetarily support innovation, rings very, very hollow.
Sure, Avatar was not the first film ever to feature a 3-d character, and the story-line may be slightly re-hashed, but it was innovative in some ways. Graphically, very innovative. Avatar will likely be remembered as the film that featured the best character rendering that our time has to offer, and placing them within a film, where they serve the purpose of convincing characters. However, you are right about the fact that better graphics do not automatically equal innovation. Innovation is the use of aspects in entirely new ways, or even, the invention of new aspects to a genre completely.
In my opinon, what MMOs need at the moment is complete innovation. A breaking away from the RPG aspects of MMO's. This could possibly be to the extent of removing stats. Removing levels.
Why not have a generation of MMOs, where the meaning of an MMO is an online, massive, connected world, in which thousands participate. Let that be the defining factor of future MMOs.
Players are quickly becoming tired of this grindy-grind, "let's have grind time now, and have fun later" stuff. Soon enough, companies will catch on to the fact that the Massive Online world is what players love about MMO's, not those other silly aspects which companies have been convinced to include in their game, due to past genre traits.
AND?
if game companies took your approach we wouldn't even have games like GTA that REVOLUTIONIZED that genre or Modern Warfare.
like i said I understand you are defending your favorite game by any means, since one of the things people bash WOW is its lack of innovation. but to defend it by saying innovation is overrated is downright stupid.
and i think even most of the non blind fanboys of WoW would completely disagree with you.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
I agree with the OP
Everything with few exceptions is built on existing ideas.
The TV was just an extension of the cathode ray tube.
Let's compare today's MMOs to late 1980s MUDs. What's different? A graphical user interface is all.
The only truly innovative game I can think of is Second Life. Which is the only true sandbox game that I've tried.
The Lord of the Rings books borrowed heavily from the Wizard of Oz books. Nothing is new.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Yeh i can agree. but will not agree as wow as a pinnacle of the genre. At least for me. The game has never ever, after many free trial attempts, been able to hold my attention.
Plus i think when you talk about people who want more innovation you really have to take into account how they look at MMOs.
I can respect wow in the same way i respect macdonalds. Great business model, quick good fast food. But it is in way a steakhouse of MMOs. I also can in no way respect WoW as an art form. But in art i give a lot more credit to innovation or something new.
I agree completely with the OP.
Devs just want to do something different to think they've added to the genre when the genre really didn't need anything extra. The Combat alone have ruined many games for me. Devs try to make the combat "active" and end up with an Action-Bar-Mini-Game and Button mashing. I don't want to look at my action bar waiting for an icon to "blink" to press it.... I want to look at the ACTION going on INSIDE the game.
i'm hoping for them to throw out the bathwater, the baby, the tub and the whole damn bathroom, cuz i didn't wanna bathe a baby or ANYONE for my entertainment. 8)
and no, i'm not trolling. when people think outside the box they always offend people just by sharing their thoughts. the more outside the box you are, the more people get offended.
you'll just have to TRY to live with the idea that somebody thinks alot differently than you. 8)
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Corpus Callosum
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Pesonally I like innovative titles. Maybe not that game itself but innovation brings new things that gets incorporated in new and better games. The small companys usually bring innovation and the big ones take the good ideas of that game and brings it to theirs.
So as a developer is it worth to bring an innovative title in? Short answer would be no it´s not.
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.