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Don't get too upset at the developers, it's not really their fault.
GlowingMoon
Member Posts: 44
It's the publishers and CEO's that are holding back new and original creations, not only in regards to innovation, which is sometimes an overused word.
''I'd like to see that happen, but -- and this is as true in the U.S. as it is in Japan -- the sales department is primarily interested in whatever character sold the most product last year
No matter what you do with an original character, it's always going to have an uphill battle in this respect. Developers want to put out all kinds of new characters, of course, but the marketplace is just not ready to accept them. That's the way things have become, and it is a disappointment. '' - Takahashi Meijin
''We manufacture content. We wrack our brains for what might sell and what might not, but it's very difficult to hit the jackpot, as it were. Once we've hit it, we have to get all the juice possible out of it. The obvious example is Final Fantasy. If we just sell each one, we end up with only 12 commodities. We have to think what we can do to make more profit out of the series. '' - Yoichi Wada, President of Square-Enix
Instead of making a interesting original game first and having trust that by it's high quality and good concepts that it will sell quite well, they want to make a ''highly sellable'' game, something that will sell first, and the actual concepts, aspects and content of the game second.
And that is why we have so many games these days that feel ''commercial'' and soulless.
Comments
It's that way in every business. Movies are made with certain returns expected, they make the epic 200 million dollar film knowing it will make at least 300 million. They make the lower budget 40 million comedy knowing it will make 80 million.
TV series are made now with marketing in mind. There was an article on how they made the Biggest Loser show around how they could sell merchandise. They had the Biggest Loser diet plan, excersice video etc etc. ready to go before the show aired. They know how the money would come in and they built a show around that fact.
That's where Indie companies used to come in, there's the Sundance festival (and other festivals) for indipendant movies. Often times a lot of very interesting movies come out of this, but you would never see them on the big screen as they aren't given money makers. It used to be that Indie companies brought new ideas to video games, this was true for a long time through regular single player games. But now with MMOs, the indie companies are just trying to make the same MMOs everyone else is.
Turbine was once an Indie company. They started as a group of college kids working on a 3D MMO. This was before the launch of such games as UO and EQ (EQ only beat them to the market by a few months). They had some unique ideas and the game was, and still is, a blast to play. It had a skill tree but had levels, it had an open world but had some quests. The quests were repeatable, none of this one off stuff all games do now. Loot randomly came off of monsters so you never knew where that perfect weapon or armor would come from.
Now that they have made the money they went straight to known IPs, DDO and LotRO. They could of kept making new worlds but they went the corporate route like all the other big names.
What we need now is another new Indie company that does a unique MMO, then those ideas will get incorporated into the mainstream MMOs. Then we need another Indie to do it again, and so on. This is really where big changes come from.
That is so very true. We can't unleash ourselves as we would indie - the reasoning for this is very commercial. An investor, for example, is only interested in the Return on the Investment - sometimes that's good, but somtimes its bad. If you get a sole investor who is a silent partner then they don't care what you do or how you do it, they just want their return by the end of X years. But then you have the boys in marketing, and the board of directors (who got their because of money) - they want profit, they want money. It's human nature, greed that is.
Now when you look at indy games - they suffer greatly to. Yes they are alone, but without the big bucks, they can't get the game/product out there. And this is how our industry goes.
But to extend on it, MMORPGs are always under attack by the CEOs and Marketing. (Please, I'm not flaming or bashing at this point) Ever since World of Warcraft came out, it has gotten much worse. WoW has have 11.5 million accounts, so every investor/marketing compare all games to WoW, if they don't have 11.5 Million then it was a failure - so people try to take elements from WoW so they can reach that level, why because of the money.
Awhile back, EQ and AC were the big players - if an MMORPG had 100,000 accoutns/sub - they were successful. Unfortuntly, not so much now. Since WoW proved a big money maker, a big market - apparently everyone has to match that amount. It's unfortunate. (Again, not attacking WoW - just looking at the business side of things in the MMO world)
This seems like it may come as a surprise to you, but the only purpose any TV show ever had since the invention of TV was to get you to watch the commercials.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This seems like it may come as a surprise to you, but the only purpose any TV show ever had since the invention of TV was to get you to watch the commercials.
I'll correct you on this, having some knowledge of the industry myself. The creators of TV shows and movies do consider themselves artists and storytellers, and while the marketing reason for having television shows on TV has always been to get you to watch commercials (though now with my DVR, Netflix and HBO, I haven't watched a commercial in a long, long time) - film is an art medium and the people who create a show - actors, producers, directors - consider themselves artists.
So while the intention of the marketing department might be to put, say, "30 Rock" on TV because it's a popular show that sells commercials, rest assured Tina Fey is doing it because she considers it an expression of her comedy; her art form; her way to entertain and give back to the world and also make money while doing it. I'm sure Tina Fey is far more concerned about the artistic merits of her show, her fans, and DVD sales than she is concerned about what commercials her show will allow to be aired; except perhaps in relation to how she is compensated.
There are multiple reasons for everything, the world isn't black and white, conservative vs. liberal, good vs. evil as some like to try and boil it down into.
This seems like it may come as a surprise to you, but the only purpose any TV show ever had since the invention of TV was to get you to watch the commercials.
I'll correct you on this, having some knowledge of the industry myself. The creators of TV shows and movies do consider themselves artists and storytellers, and while the marketing reason for having television shows on TV has always been to get you to watch commercials (though now with my DVR, Netflix and HBO, I haven't watched a commercial in a long, long time) - film is an art medium and the people who create a show - actors, producers, directors - consider themselves artists.
So while the intention of the marketing department might be to put, say, "30 Rock" on TV because it's a popular show that sells commercials, rest assured Tina Fey is doing it because she considers it an expression of her comedy; her art form; her way to entertain and give back to the world and also make money while doing it. I'm sure Tina Fey is far more concerned about the artistic merits of her show, her fans, and DVD sales than she is concerned about what commercials her show will allow to be aired; except perhaps in relation to how she is compensated.
There are multiple reasons for everything, the world isn't black and white, conservative vs. liberal, good vs. evil as some like to try and boil it down into.
I never said Tiny Fey and the people who made the shows weren't artists. I replied to the statement that TV shows were made now with marketing in mind, implying that they weren't always. TV shows, like their radio predecessors, are produced so that you will watch the commercials.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Somewhere on youtube there's this video of Frank Zappa talking about how in the old days, record producers were much more likely to take a risk. The producers were old cigar smoking fogies who didn't know a thing about rock. They even hated rock. But they would say, lets cut five thousand records and see how that does, if they sell, well make more.
The new record producers 'understand' rock. They take zero risk.
So Frank Zappa supports cigar smoking old fogie record producers.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
This seems like it may come as a surprise to you, but the only purpose any TV show ever had since the invention of TV was to get you to watch the commercials.
I'll correct you on this, having some knowledge of the industry myself. The creators of TV shows and movies do consider themselves artists and storytellers, and while the marketing reason for having television shows on TV has always been to get you to watch commercials (though now with my DVR, Netflix and HBO, I haven't watched a commercial in a long, long time) - film is an art medium and the people who create a show - actors, producers, directors - consider themselves artists.
So while the intention of the marketing department might be to put, say, "30 Rock" on TV because it's a popular show that sells commercials, rest assured Tina Fey is doing it because she considers it an expression of her comedy; her art form; her way to entertain and give back to the world and also make money while doing it. I'm sure Tina Fey is far more concerned about the artistic merits of her show, her fans, and DVD sales than she is concerned about what commercials her show will allow to be aired; except perhaps in relation to how she is compensated.
There are multiple reasons for everything, the world isn't black and white, conservative vs. liberal, good vs. evil as some like to try and boil it down into.
I never said Tiny Fey and the people who made the shows weren't artists. I replied to the statement that TV shows were made now with marketing in mind, implying that they weren't always. TV shows, like their radio predecessors, are produced so that you will watch the commercials.
You're missing the point. A TV show is a production that is the net creation of a LOT of people. Not all of them are creating the show to sell you soap or Viagra - just the marketing execs. What about TV shows on premium cable channels where they aren't trying to sell you anything except another subscription to the channel? It's about a quality TV show. Just finished watching "Big Love" on HBO; don't recall being sold a single product.
I'm pretty sure that the show is being created with the impetus to tell a great story so that people get interested in the show and want to re-sub to HBO, no?
Such cynics, everyone.
People always like to bitch about the "old days" and how much better things were. It's pretty much that way across nations, cultures, and peoples. The truth is, there are still people taking risks and there is still art being produced - just that since much of it is for a mass market; YOU might not like it. I'm not a huge Madonna fan, for example, but I have to admit that millions of people have supported her career over the years by buying her products; so she's doing something right... be it in the presentation or the music itself.
well there are some devs that have the guts to make their own kind of game. Arenanet worked on Wow but didn't like how the bosses wanted their game and started their own company, Guildwars 2 seems like one of the few different games that are being made right now.
Bioware have also always made their own things, their owners don't complain since people actually buys their games. Same goes for Bethesda.
Indie companies often have good ideas but it takes a lot more resources today to make a succesful MMO than it did 10 years ago. I believe that the few companies that dare to take a risk will be the winners here but I also think it is very hard for a indie company to make it unless they get finacial backing.
These two statements should be looked at here. Especially the "takes a lot more resources today.... succesfull mmo.. 10 years ago".
Maybe so, But there hasnt BEEN a succesfull release since then either. Aside from maybe Turbine with LoTRO, and to some degree Sony's EQ2 and more notibly Arenanet with Guildwars. I agree with you that over the decade player expectation for graphical content maybe has increased to some degree the cost of production, but seriously not by much. The absolute highest cost for any francise is not building the game but maintaining it. ie: server costs/location, Customer service, (why we see so little of it, usually the first to get cut), and yes believe it or not, production/development of related content, either future (through DLC/Expac) or the teams just squashing buggs, balancing the game world, or just working out the details over time.
Sure it costs a great deal of money to create an MMO. Especially to get it off the ground from paper. But speed=cash, in the eyes of the publisher, while Developers look at speed=unemployed. It's not a wonderfull place to be. The problem here is that potential publisher's of future IP's look at WoW's numbers and drool, and us consumer's of games, mmo's in specific, are known for buying just about anything, without thought/dicipline, desperately searching for that "perfect home that isn't WoW", only to end up back to some game "we wish was better". This terrible consumer practice IS changing though as most simply can't afford to take it up the bum anymore in believing the hype (you guessed it, "hype" probably THE most expensive part of any new games budget, MARKETING). NOTE: This in no way is a jab at Blizzard or WoW. WoW in my opinion is a fine game and excellent example of success.
It's not about the money m8. It never has been for mmo's since the beginning though it has become this over the last decade. It's about a publisher/developer/distributor actually taking the time to budget into thier project, Customer Service, Consumer Respect, and Quality over Quantity. I believe (my opinion) the next succesful, truely succesful, mmo that comes out will be one that takes these "features" and incorprates them into their budget for game without losing focus of company integrity, or initial "vision" for the project itself. Key words here.. company integrity, consumer respect.
just my opinion folks, nothing more nothing less.
done
"He who reigns within himself and rules his passions, desires, and fears is more than a king."
"Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much argruing, much writting, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making."
John Milton 1608-1674
You also have to consider two factors that (as of writing this) haven't been touched on. The cost of making a film as skyrocketed due to special effects, workers, artist and production. But still, with the advent of the digital camera indie films have become somewhat easier to come by and make. We've just seen it with Paranormal Activity last year.
But with MMO's..cheap technology really hasn't developed in the same way. In fact, the demand for state of the art graphics in EVERY new mmo makes it nearly impossible for indie groups to fund such projects. It's possible, ya...absolutely. But with a massive amount of MMO's on the market it isn't as easy as EQ or even WoW had it. Now, there is a new game around every corner which also demands large amounts of marketing, and with the big companies out there controlling most of subs, indie games may be meek in the near future.
After seeing the people and developers behind some of these mmos and games recently that have for the most part been failures, I'd personally have to say the biggest problem is they're all very bright with the programming, art, and design, but with a lack of business savvy.
Most game companies, and enterprise software companies even, are filled with teams of intelligent and creative people that you can truly trust to make the best thing you've ever seen. This is a trait by in large wasted though by a lack in skilled management, budgeting, and foresight into the needs of the company as an entity/collective.
It's a problem Cryptic had, and is still working to get over, since before the launch of CO. They were three months away from closing shop as a company when they got a new CEO that worked his ass off to make sure they could stay afloat. Since then the company has gotten more stable management and teams and they're attempting to recover what they can in the time they have in hopes of being properly prepared for their future project.
Other companies aren't so fortunate. A few Devs have closed shop recently or are about to, and primarily because they spawned as a group of people driven to make a game, not a company. By all means, the passion to make a game the way one wants and to make it the best it can be is wonderful, and it's necessary, but it's worlds apart from the mindset and skill sets that's needed to facilitate that dream.
You can have great artists. You can have great designers. You can have great programmers. But you also have to admit that none of them are autonomous groups and none of them are typically cut out for most any level of management. You need the important fourth and fifth groups of consumer relations and business practice. More so you need the business practice, because as creative and intelligent as one might be, one can not do everything and one has to trust in some one else to manage what they can not rather than muddle on and hope for the best.
Management is what's most severely lacking, and it's a primary source for most of the woes that a company can deal with.
EDIT: And you do realize how long an mmo takes to be made, right Zorn? More over how long Blizzard takes to make any game...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
o_O
...
If you think Blizzard has good policies...well...not sure I can help that one. That's just a wrong sentiment.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Ok Paulie.
Good to know my assumption on your level of understanding was right. Saves me from typing more.
Good luck to ya then.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The more a market finds its feet so to speak the less innovation there is. MMO's were originally driven by designers, it was new territory, and no one was sure what to do to make a good MMO. Now gaming companies they think they know exactly what to do, so design sits in the back seat and the MMO car is driven by corporate types. This just leads to rehashing the same old template time and time again.