@tobias4 The decline began long before the "changes" were made to those games. Most of those changes were being made in response to the decline happening in those games.
In all honesty, I bet there are more people with prior mmo experience in wow than there are in the next several games combined.
And that is because there are no more games left running that cater to the old social seamless world of old time MMORPGs, so those veterans are forced to play WoW or one of its various clones. Or, they hide out in games like Eve, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, unique titles.
If you feel forced to play a game you do not actually enjoy, you need therapy. Is there a gun out there pointing at you?
Old social seamless world of old time MMORPGs. You forgot to mention the tons of pitfall in designs that makes those games far less fun than the current games. Nostalgia is not going anywhere. Many of us been there, from desktop games with dice to solo apple II / PC/XT games.
I have seen the progressive evolution of games focusing on user experience. I have seen the philosophy of game design from time sink and withholding enjoying to facilitating gameplay and assessibility of enjoyment to all. Gone are the days where gamers were forced to group, forced to travel through the same route for hours to assemble outside a raid zone every day. Gone are the days where players have to play long hours of tortures just to get to enjoy a minute of the real game: one pull, 2 hours of corpse recovery. Gone are the days when only a few players, those with no life and camp their own computer 24/7, are able to enter the halls of legends just to wipe at the door. Gone are the days where players need to camp a boss spawn point for 48 hours hoping the developer would throw them a bone, electronic pixel version. Gone are the days when a few elitists can seal the door to a zone and camp zerg all others trying to visit the part of the game they pay for with their sub. Gone are the days when some social misfits feel it their right to grief others and tell tales as if they were heroes through making life miserable for others. Gone are the days I need to play along with jerks and play without being relaxed, as these jerks are, by game design, enjoying full free hand to make the game experience most unpleasant for me, from spamming to killstealing to training to whatever these people can come up with. Bye bye, and I do not miss these features.
Yes, gamers now can log in and play alongside with babysitting, chatting with friends via internet chats, play while semi afk cooking or whatever. Play solo or group as I damned pleased. Why is that bad? Its a game, much like a leisure book. You pick up to read, put it down for whatever, and pick up to resume, if and when you want to. That is what I pay for, that is what I sink my leisure hours in. I do not pay and spend my precious couple leisuer hours to be told by some snobs (who pride themselves as game veterans) as to what is the right way to play.
There is no secret to WoWs success. It is a complete, robust, artistic, catchy, charming game that is pretty easy to get into and is often updated and given attention. Its simple, Blizzard made a good game.
There's nothing "robust" about WoW. It still lacks features and gameplay mechanics that games in 2001 had standard.
It'd be more accurate to say, they made a simple game at the right time, when there were no simple games out there, and the market for simple MMO goers was untapped.
That is your view, which, I believe most people would dismiss as ridiculous.
WoW is not robust? Look at the game since launch. Once Blizz opened enough servers to ease the long queues, the game has never experience major "disaster". Go find another game launch that is comparably smooth, look at VG, EvE upon launch. Look at the major patches blizz launches regularly every few months. They were invariable smooth. Apart from LOTRo, I have yet to see another game that robust.
Game play in 2001 that were not in WoW, were removed by Blizz b/c they see those as time sinks, as less enjoyable features. There is no standard in 2001, EQ and UO were two different games. Actually, Blizz, with their tremendous success, has set a standard for polishness of delivery, ease of use in UI, easy learning curve and so on. Those are almost the industry standard, and that is why many of you keep erroroneously thinking that all developers "clone" WoW. Fact is, any game that wants to compete with WoW head on, need to deliver the same minimum "standard".
There is no game out there when WoW launched? You need to refresh your memory, pal. WoW was launched a month after EQ2. WoW was launched at a time when we have DAoC, SWG. 2 of the best games in my memory. WoW beat them all, hands down.
You do not need to love WoW. But distorting all facts to try to corn us is low. Distorting all facts to try to lie to yourself is sick.
There is no secret to WoWs success. It is a complete, robust, artistic, catchy, charming game that is pretty easy to get into and is often updated and given attention. Its simple, Blizzard made a good game.
There's nothing "robust" about WoW. It still lacks features and gameplay mechanics that games in 2001 had standard.
There is no secret to WoWs success. It is a complete, robust, artistic, catchy, charming game that is pretty easy to get into and is often updated and given attention. Its simple, Blizzard made a good game.
There's nothing "robust" about WoW. It still lacks features and gameplay mechanics that games in 2001 had standard.
Such as?
Can't you see, WoW is for noobs and kiddies. We don't need to explain why, just throw around unfounded and disproven claims and if you disagree you're wrong because we're leeter than you.
WoW is a huge success because it opened the genre to the masses. The game mechanics is simple, relies on a well defined lore, and the variety of "things" to do (dungeons, crafting, fishing, pvp) and find (diversity in gear, bosses) was just mind blowing for gamers back in those days. It also provided smooth character animations, a challenging combat mechanic (5 years ago) and the graphix could run on everyone's machine.
What wow did was not excel in one area of the genre, it excelled at putting everything together elegantly into a nice, simple, entertaining package.
Today, games seem to be focusing on one part of the game only (e.g. graphix, world size, pvp) but usually fail in gluing the other pieces together. This limits the initial population base right from the start.
WoW is a huge success because it opened the genre to the masses. The game mechanics is simple, relies on a well defined lore, and the variety of "things" to do (dungeons, crafting, fishing, pvp) and find (diversity in gear, bosses) was just mind blowing for gamers back in those days. It also provided smooth character animations, a challenging combat mechanic (5 years ago) and the graphix could run on everyone's machine. What wow did was not excel in one area of the genre, it excelled at putting everything together elegantly into a nice, simple, entertaining package. Today, games seem to be focusing on one part of the game only (e.g. graphix, world size, pvp) but usually fail in gluing the other pieces together. This limits the initial population base right from the start.
It was NOT mind blowing to gamers.
It was mind blowing to people who never played MMORPGs.
For the rest of us, every single feature in WoW's paultry list, had already been done in a more deep and complex way in another MMO.
Honestly, WoW doesn't do anything *perfect* but it does everything *well*
People find things to complain about because that's the way people are. Enjoy PvP, complain about the cartoony graphics. Like the endgame raids, complain about the grind to get there. Enjoy the levelling process, complain about ganking in world PvP. Like to play casually on your bargain PC in between cooking, cleaning, and looking after babby, cities lag too much. There's always something to complain about.
I think the cause of anti-WoW sentiment is jealousy. People play a game that does one or two things better than WoW, specifically for those one or two things, and get upset when the other areas are lacking. Maybe people think the community in their game of choice would be better if WoW ended. Maybe they think more subs would equate to more money for devs to spend improving the game if WoW ended and several million pe
It was mind blowing to people who never played MMORPGs. For the rest of us, every single feature in WoW's paultry list, had already been done in a more deep and complex way in another MMO.
Perhaps, but did you ever find one game that did them all? Or do you just have a long list of games that each do one or two things better than WoW and everything else worse? WoW is a compromise; it does everything well but is the best at nothing. It's kinda like buying a hemi 'Cuda so you can go fast, buying a Smart Car to get good mileage, a Porsche 911 to carve corners, and buying a minivan to haul the kids around, and WoW is like, say, the Subaru Impreza of MMOs. It's not the fastest car, or the roomiest, or gets the best mileage, but it's pretty darn quick in a line or around a turn, gets decent mileage for its power, and seats two adults and three kids just fine. Not the greatest example, I know, and I left rally off the list on purpose But you get the idea.
It was mind blowing to people who never played MMORPGs. But why, why Mr Tobias, why do I want to have my mind blown away by a game. The dish I eat every day does not blow my mind away either. But, I still enjoy it. Same dish, same restaurant, same little waitress, what is wrong? For the rest of us, every single feature in WoW's paultry list, had already been done in a more deep and complex way in another MMO. But why, why Mr Tobias, why do I need it to be done deep and complex, for the sake of being deep? Its a game god damn it, its not a race to show off ego "I play this deep and complex game, I am bigger, not like those who never played MMORPGs". If the game does it right, I bloodly don't care if someone try to make it look deeper of feel more awkwardly overcomplex in another game.
Perhaps, but did you ever find one game that did them all? Or do you just have a long list of games that each do one or two things better than WoW and everything else worse? WoW is a compromise; it does everything well but is the best at nothing. It's kinda like buying a hemi 'Cuda so you can go fast, buying a Smart Car to get good mileage, a Porsche 911 to carve corners, and buying a minivan to haul the kids around, and WoW is like, say, the Subaru Impreza of MMOs. It's not the fastest car, or the roomiest, or gets the best mileage, but it's pretty darn quick in a line or around a turn, gets decent mileage for its power, and seats two adults and three kids just fine. Not the greatest example, I know, and I left rally off the list on purpose But you get the idea.
In simplicity accomodation. WoW is a game that accomodates various game playstyle, so that people who look for different kinds of in game activities will find something. Mr Tobias, does it ever occur to you that PvPers might want to PvE for a certain day, and crafters might want to raid once a week? WoW is such a game in which they can play different things within the same day, within the same week, or even simultanesouly.
In WoW we can queue up for random dungeons and as we wait we can farm for mats, or PvP. You can mix and match different things to do, and there are enough variety to kill a day. THAT in itself is a good design. WoW does not need to blow your mind away, it just quietly provide a gaming world with variety. For the price of 1 game sub, you can enjoy multiple game styles.
WoW is a huge success because it opened the genre to the masses. The game mechanics is simple, relies on a well defined lore, and the variety of "things" to do (dungeons, crafting, fishing, pvp) and find (diversity in gear, bosses) was just mind blowing for gamers back in those days. It also provided smooth character animations, a challenging combat mechanic (5 years ago) and the graphix could run on everyone's machine. What wow did was not excel in one area of the genre, it excelled at putting everything together elegantly into a nice, simple, entertaining package. Today, games seem to be focusing on one part of the game only (e.g. graphix, world size, pvp) but usually fail in gluing the other pieces together. This limits the initial population base right from the start.
It was NOT mind blowing to gamers.
It was mind blowing to people who never played MMORPGs.
For the rest of us, every single feature in WoW's paultry list, had already been done in a more deep and complex way in another MMO.
Still waiting on those "Standard features in 2001" that "WoW still lacks".
I guess the list is so long it's taking you a while to type it up, eh?
What El Muerte said is the essence of it. No one would claim WoW did anything especially original. What it did was do everything *better*. It was, perhaps still is, the ultimate evolution of the Everquest/DikuMUD model -- kill monster, get XP, gain power, kill bigger monster. Nothing has bested it in that style, and it seems nothing will. There are many other styles, of course, but they appeal to a smaller audience -- but that smaller audience wants/demands the same level of quality that Blizzard can provide, and raw economics says they'll never get it.
WoW works because of the attention to detail and countless fine-tuned touches that are not obvious unless you actually understand game design and really study how all the little pieces fit together. This is why WoW clones fail -- they're they equivalent of the countless 90s "Grim and gritty" comics that tried to imitate Alan Moore and had no clue why "Watchmen" was a classic and "Darkgrimslaughterkiller" was instantly forgettable. (Or, perhaps an even better example, the original TMNT -- long, long, before the kiddie cartoon -- and the endless series of completely forgotten B&W "mutant animal" comics that followed, again long before the cartoon.)
Not that what I'm saying will be remotely comprehensible to you. You will reply with some variant on "Hur hur, Wow 4 kiddies hur REAL GAMER hate WoW hur hur". I could mention my first exposure to computer gaming was via a teletype and an acoustic coupler in 1978, which is most likely before you were born, but what would that accomplish? Odds are, you haven't even read this far before writing your instinctual reply.
If it wasn't for WoW we would all still be grinding away in our MMO's according to the 1990's Korean model which was only slightly Westernised by Everquest and was the one everyone adopted. Thankfully Blizzard broke the mold.
_________________________________________ You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Any decent designer knows the value of accessibility. "minute to learn, lifetime to master" is a common saying, and rings true. If you look at Chess, it's a game whose basic rules can be printed on a single sheet of paper -- yet despite that simplicity it's a game with tremendous depth. That's the hallmark of a great game: describing how to play can be done on a single sheet of paper, but describing how to play well takes many full-length books.
This. ^
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
Comments
And that is because there are no more games left running that cater to the old social seamless world of old time MMORPGs, so those veterans are forced to play WoW or one of its various clones. Or, they hide out in games like Eve, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, unique titles.
If you feel forced to play a game you do not actually enjoy, you need therapy. Is there a gun out there pointing at you?
Old social seamless world of old time MMORPGs. You forgot to mention the tons of pitfall in designs that makes those games far less fun than the current games. Nostalgia is not going anywhere. Many of us been there, from desktop games with dice to solo apple II / PC/XT games.
I have seen the progressive evolution of games focusing on user experience. I have seen the philosophy of game design from time sink and withholding enjoying to facilitating gameplay and assessibility of enjoyment to all. Gone are the days where gamers were forced to group, forced to travel through the same route for hours to assemble outside a raid zone every day. Gone are the days where players have to play long hours of tortures just to get to enjoy a minute of the real game: one pull, 2 hours of corpse recovery. Gone are the days when only a few players, those with no life and camp their own computer 24/7, are able to enter the halls of legends just to wipe at the door. Gone are the days where players need to camp a boss spawn point for 48 hours hoping the developer would throw them a bone, electronic pixel version. Gone are the days when a few elitists can seal the door to a zone and camp zerg all others trying to visit the part of the game they pay for with their sub. Gone are the days when some social misfits feel it their right to grief others and tell tales as if they were heroes through making life miserable for others. Gone are the days I need to play along with jerks and play without being relaxed, as these jerks are, by game design, enjoying full free hand to make the game experience most unpleasant for me, from spamming to killstealing to training to whatever these people can come up with. Bye bye, and I do not miss these features.
Yes, gamers now can log in and play alongside with babysitting, chatting with friends via internet chats, play while semi afk cooking or whatever. Play solo or group as I damned pleased. Why is that bad? Its a game, much like a leisure book. You pick up to read, put it down for whatever, and pick up to resume, if and when you want to. That is what I pay for, that is what I sink my leisure hours in. I do not pay and spend my precious couple leisuer hours to be told by some snobs (who pride themselves as game veterans) as to what is the right way to play.
There's nothing "robust" about WoW. It still lacks features and gameplay mechanics that games in 2001 had standard.
It'd be more accurate to say, they made a simple game at the right time, when there were no simple games out there, and the market for simple MMO goers was untapped.
That is your view, which, I believe most people would dismiss as ridiculous.
WoW is not robust? Look at the game since launch. Once Blizz opened enough servers to ease the long queues, the game has never experience major "disaster". Go find another game launch that is comparably smooth, look at VG, EvE upon launch. Look at the major patches blizz launches regularly every few months. They were invariable smooth. Apart from LOTRo, I have yet to see another game that robust.
Game play in 2001 that were not in WoW, were removed by Blizz b/c they see those as time sinks, as less enjoyable features. There is no standard in 2001, EQ and UO were two different games. Actually, Blizz, with their tremendous success, has set a standard for polishness of delivery, ease of use in UI, easy learning curve and so on. Those are almost the industry standard, and that is why many of you keep erroroneously thinking that all developers "clone" WoW. Fact is, any game that wants to compete with WoW head on, need to deliver the same minimum "standard".
There is no game out there when WoW launched? You need to refresh your memory, pal. WoW was launched a month after EQ2. WoW was launched at a time when we have DAoC, SWG. 2 of the best games in my memory. WoW beat them all, hands down.
You do not need to love WoW. But distorting all facts to try to corn us is low. Distorting all facts to try to lie to yourself is sick.
9 pages of a WoW thread and no Zorndorf?
Hmm.....
I would like to thank the OP for the bulletin from the Bureau of the Painfully Obvious.
In other words, you're correct but everyone has pretty much figured that out by now.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
There's nothing "robust" about WoW. It still lacks features and gameplay mechanics that games in 2001 had standard.
Such as?
There's nothing "robust" about WoW. It still lacks features and gameplay mechanics that games in 2001 had standard.
Such as?
Can't you see, WoW is for noobs and kiddies. We don't need to explain why, just throw around unfounded and disproven claims and if you disagree you're wrong because we're leeter than you.
/s
WoW is a huge success because it opened the genre to the masses. The game mechanics is simple, relies on a well defined lore, and the variety of "things" to do (dungeons, crafting, fishing, pvp) and find (diversity in gear, bosses) was just mind blowing for gamers back in those days. It also provided smooth character animations, a challenging combat mechanic (5 years ago) and the graphix could run on everyone's machine.
What wow did was not excel in one area of the genre, it excelled at putting everything together elegantly into a nice, simple, entertaining package.
Today, games seem to be focusing on one part of the game only (e.g. graphix, world size, pvp) but usually fail in gluing the other pieces together. This limits the initial population base right from the start.
It was NOT mind blowing to gamers.
It was mind blowing to people who never played MMORPGs.
For the rest of us, every single feature in WoW's paultry list, had already been done in a more deep and complex way in another MMO.
Honestly, WoW doesn't do anything *perfect* but it does everything *well*
People find things to complain about because that's the way people are. Enjoy PvP, complain about the cartoony graphics. Like the endgame raids, complain about the grind to get there. Enjoy the levelling process, complain about ganking in world PvP. Like to play casually on your bargain PC in between cooking, cleaning, and looking after babby, cities lag too much. There's always something to complain about.
I think the cause of anti-WoW sentiment is jealousy. People play a game that does one or two things better than WoW, specifically for those one or two things, and get upset when the other areas are lacking. Maybe people think the community in their game of choice would be better if WoW ended. Maybe they think more subs would equate to more money for devs to spend improving the game if WoW ended and several million pe
Perhaps, but did you ever find one game that did them all? Or do you just have a long list of games that each do one or two things better than WoW and everything else worse? WoW is a compromise; it does everything well but is the best at nothing. It's kinda like buying a hemi 'Cuda so you can go fast, buying a Smart Car to get good mileage, a Porsche 911 to carve corners, and buying a minivan to haul the kids around, and WoW is like, say, the Subaru Impreza of MMOs. It's not the fastest car, or the roomiest, or gets the best mileage, but it's pretty darn quick in a line or around a turn, gets decent mileage for its power, and seats two adults and three kids just fine. Not the greatest example, I know, and I left rally off the list on purpose
But you get the idea.
Perhaps, but did you ever find one game that did them all? Or do you just have a long list of games that each do one or two things better than WoW and everything else worse? WoW is a compromise; it does everything well but is the best at nothing. It's kinda like buying a hemi 'Cuda so you can go fast, buying a Smart Car to get good mileage, a Porsche 911 to carve corners, and buying a minivan to haul the kids around, and WoW is like, say, the Subaru Impreza of MMOs. It's not the fastest car, or the roomiest, or gets the best mileage, but it's pretty darn quick in a line or around a turn, gets decent mileage for its power, and seats two adults and three kids just fine. Not the greatest example, I know, and I left rally off the list on purpose
But you get the idea.
In simplicity accomodation. WoW is a game that accomodates various game playstyle, so that people who look for different kinds of in game activities will find something. Mr Tobias, does it ever occur to you that PvPers might want to PvE for a certain day, and crafters might want to raid once a week? WoW is such a game in which they can play different things within the same day, within the same week, or even simultanesouly.
In WoW we can queue up for random dungeons and as we wait we can farm for mats, or PvP. You can mix and match different things to do, and there are enough variety to kill a day. THAT in itself is a good design. WoW does not need to blow your mind away, it just quietly provide a gaming world with variety. For the price of 1 game sub, you can enjoy multiple game styles.
It was NOT mind blowing to gamers.
It was mind blowing to people who never played MMORPGs.
For the rest of us, every single feature in WoW's paultry list, had already been done in a more deep and complex way in another MMO.
Still waiting on those "Standard features in 2001" that "WoW still lacks".
I guess the list is so long it's taking you a while to type it up, eh?
What El Muerte said is the essence of it. No one would claim WoW did anything especially original. What it did was do everything *better*. It was, perhaps still is, the ultimate evolution of the Everquest/DikuMUD model -- kill monster, get XP, gain power, kill bigger monster. Nothing has bested it in that style, and it seems nothing will. There are many other styles, of course, but they appeal to a smaller audience -- but that smaller audience wants/demands the same level of quality that Blizzard can provide, and raw economics says they'll never get it.
WoW works because of the attention to detail and countless fine-tuned touches that are not obvious unless you actually understand game design and really study how all the little pieces fit together. This is why WoW clones fail -- they're they equivalent of the countless 90s "Grim and gritty" comics that tried to imitate Alan Moore and had no clue why "Watchmen" was a classic and "Darkgrimslaughterkiller" was instantly forgettable. (Or, perhaps an even better example, the original TMNT -- long, long, before the kiddie cartoon -- and the endless series of completely forgotten B&W "mutant animal" comics that followed, again long before the cartoon.)
Not that what I'm saying will be remotely comprehensible to you. You will reply with some variant on "Hur hur, Wow 4 kiddies hur REAL GAMER hate WoW hur hur". I could mention my first exposure to computer gaming was via a teletype and an acoustic coupler in 1978, which is most likely before you were born, but what would that accomplish? Odds are, you haven't even read this far before writing your instinctual reply.
If it wasn't for WoW we would all still be grinding away in our MMO's according to the 1990's Korean model which was only slightly Westernised by Everquest and was the one everyone adopted. Thankfully Blizzard broke the mold.
_________________________________________
You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
This. ^
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.