Originally posted by Reklaw Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
So even with thorough understanding of the complexity of MMORPG's, their players should continue to accept half-assed, unfinished products (beta-in-a-box)?
Nope, did you see me say/write this to make this asumtion?
Personally, I have to agree with the OP here in that the state games release in these days is completely unacceptable. As the consumer, we shouldn't need to understand the complexities of the industry, only that the product we receive works in an acceptable fashion, and delivers what it claims (whether we like it or not - that isn't the company's responsibility). The notion that MMORPG's are so complex that we should just take the crap that's shoveled down our throats and wait for the company which made it to sticks its finger down our throats to start the gag reflex is absurd.
The thing I noticed mostly is many people have unrealistic expections, they often want to play what is promised instead of playing what is given, again NOT saying we don't need better released games, just saying the ammount of complaints with most games show what I just said, they want to play promises instead of the real thing.
It isn't just that releases of late aren't very fun or lack long-lasting appeal, it's that they're being released in a far more broken state than should be accepted, and yet it seems there is little accountability given that we, the consumers, continue to shell out money to these companies in what (lately) has become a fruitless hunt for the next "big" or "great" MMO. People line up in droves to pre-order, or join this/that site just to pay more to catch a glimpse of the latest release in its beta, only to be disappointed time and time again (something I've observed here at MMORPG.com with releases of the past few years). The biggest problem of all is that people have yet to realize their own stupidity in doing so, so these companies only manage partial failures, most of them likely seeing profit. Regardless, the blame lies on the developers and it's just unfortunate that there's little consequence to what should be failures.
If games are broken then nobody will play them, something again many don't relealize, also NOT saying games are released perfect, would love to see this genre come close to perfection and we might even see this in a few years from now, since this genre is still pretty young compared to the general genre of games. There is also a hugh problem that people these day's try to companre MMORPG that have been out for years with new released MMO's, again that will cloud many people's judgement about the state of MMORPG's.
Its strange people are still pretending as if MMOs are the same as other genres. They are not.
For starters, mmorpgs have significantly more content than other games. The world is also filled with most unpredictable players, not AI. These games are simply bigger and more unpredictable than other games.
I don't care if the release dates get pushed back a hundred times. As long as the game is complete and polished, then I don't care how long it takes to make it. I've survived this long without it, what's a few more years difference going to make?
The reason publishers and developers allow thier games to release unfinished and unpolished is because, we the players, have come to expect that. We have allowed it to happen. We have voted with our money that we would rather the game is released early than finished properly, and thus that is what you are going to get from now on. If you want to make a difference, wait a month or two after a game (particularly MMORPGs) released to purchase it. Read some reviews, make an informed decision rather than letting your ignorance and desperation sway into a preorder.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
What is it with MMO devs and failing to reach deadlines? If I did that at my job I would get fired. Something is really wrong with management in this industry. Devs of MMOs waste tons of cash and time. It doesn't really take YEARS to program a game with millions of waisted dollars. I don't care what anyone says. If these companies were run efficiently, games wouldn't take 5 years to make then release broken and unfinished. This would be unacceptable in just about every other industry. Yet NO MMO has released on time and finished. Will any company get their act together and actually do quality work on time? Pathetic
I am going to go straight out and say that Eve online was very well polished when it was released (on time), i know because I was in the beta and the first year it was out. The only problems with it was the technology of the servers, which became better as time passed. There are other games that are also well developed and have few bugs, this is one example.
The problem with MMOs releasing before they are ready is that they make grand statements about release dates so that the investors know when they are getting their money's worth. This means that people who have little concept of games development are guiding games development... do I have to point out the obvious flaw here?
Similar issues occur in other industries, a company will quote a time frame and cost to investors/government then find that they are going over time and/or budget. The result is either the investors sue, find a new company, or get the rest of the work done for free.
I can think of a few games development companies where they were sued, the head of development was fired, or developers had to work outside of hours.
I am going to go straight out and say that Eve online was very well polished when it was released (on time), i know because I was in the beta and the first year it was out. The only problems with it was the technology of the servers, which became better as time passed. There are other games that are also well developed and have few bugs, this is one example. The problem with MMOs releasing before they are ready is that they make grand statements about release dates so that the investors know when they are getting their money's worth. This means that people who have little concept of games development are guiding games development... do I have to point out the obvious flaw here? Similar issues occur in other industries, a company will quote a time frame and cost to investors/government then find that they are going over time and/or budget. The result is either the investors sue, find a new company, or get the rest of the work done for free. I can think of a few games development companies where they were sued, the head of development was fired, or developers had to work outside of hours.
The answer is to have the company itself be the investor, so the development can proceed without the investor(s) getting in the way of development. However, not many companies have the resources for this, so I wouldn't suggest for a new company to start making MMO's as their first title. It's much easier to jump from successful single/multiplayer games to making MMO's when you have the necessary funds in-house and the much needed experience from making games in general (while it's rarely enough to make a good MMO, it helps a ton).
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The answer is to have the company itself be the investor, so the development can proceed without the investor(s) getting in the way of development. However, not many companies have the resources for this, so I wouldn't suggest for a new company to start making MMO's as their first title. It's much easier to jump from successful single/multiplayer games to making MMO's when you have the necessary funds in-house and the much needed experience from making games in general (while it's rarely enough to make a good MMO, it helps a ton).
Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The person whose mortgage payment, kid's college money and retirement fund are laying on the line is going to be the one injecting the most low-risk suggestions into the design and production. Whether that person is an outside investor or the developers themselves.
It sounds like what you are looking for is an independently wealthy benefactor with no Wife, no Kids and no concern with whether he is rich or broke tomorrow.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that the OP is dead on. This is one of the reasons why MMOs really haven't been brought to the console market. Not everyone who owns a console has a hard drive and therefor cannot patch.
I think it has a lot to do with the Executive producers of these games. These people are in charge of drumming up interest and capital and making sure the product delivers to their promises. Or at least that's what they are supposed to do. In reality, they are nothing more than Sales Representatives. They make promises to several sources of investment, usually the largest is a single source, which they are unaware of at the time whether or not they can deliver on. Usually an offline demo is used as a proof of concept with a prototype game engine that is not the one they would be able to use in the real game. It's nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
I had several friends in Artifact Entertainment that worked there for about a year. I was even invited in to poke my head in and say hi a few times. During my time in Mesa what I noticed that they had no structure and no real clear direction. The producers were busy making grand claims to both the public and their investors, while their server team was busy writing prototype server objects named Phillip and Terrance that would send fart and laugh events back and forth to one another. They switched their in game engine three times due to license costs and restrictions vs. an employee who brought their own engine design that was predated his employment there. In addition, one of their tools developer was trying to explain to the server team to stop wasting their time and how to develop a fault tolerant, load balanced server design that he thought up while working at the same company I did the year before.
Needless to say, the reason why I was in Mesa was to convince one of my friends to leave before shit hit the fan. My other friends that worked at AE were not too happy about it, but ironically one of them was laid off the same week while I was there. Did I have to actually work at AE to realize how much of a failure this game and the company in general was? No. People need to stop saying "Well, go build one!" The truth is that the MMO industry is not in it's infancy. It is still young but is about 15 years old, whose predecessor (MUDs) have existed nearly 30 years in the public eye.
The fact is that producers are like the pied pipers of gamers and their dollars. I keep hearing about the publishers to blaim. Usually, unless it's Microsoft (case in point - Turbine), it's the producers from the creators of the game lying to the publishers or "bending the truth". People need to stop being sheep. MMOs are not much more difficult than some of the more complex RPGs out on the market today. It is the mis-management of the game companies and the producers that get them into trouble.
I gladly welcome you to flawlessly manage hundreds of game design docs, hundreds of employees, and millions of lines of code over a 4+ year project. The more serious answer being that games are entertainment products which makes them different from something like producing an automobile (where the primary value of the product can be easily quantified: it goes x mph, gets y mpg, etc.) Games frequently aren't fun during development, and the experimentation of different avenues of potential fun frequently results in deadends, which results in setbacks. The industry isn't an exact science yet -- and many are already complaining the industry is too much an exact science already.
[Mod Edit]
Once again, its the consumers that are expectationless, *cough*, that consider that some products and services dont require the same expecation of quality as others. So someone might have a different expectation of quality for purchasing a transportation product, food product or entertainment product? I lol about that show of complete sillyness.
I say otherwise. To think that one would reward the mundane entertainment products in this market, including STO, just because someone was able to show up to work and push papers or put together a "project" binder is very telling as to who those are that are 'enabling' half-baked products and servers. It's the consumers that reward these jokes with cash (purcahse) and executive producer's that get a kick out of delivering something that 'might' resemble a product or service.
Some good points - one thing I'd point out having worked for many years at a startup software company that went from less than 20 employees when I was hired to more than 500 (not game company) is that for MMO's (from what I've observed) the lines get blurred between R&D and Production. Bottom line is any game has to be fun. Any new company that starts up selling software must have something different to offer, and they must be able to find their niche.
What we often see is both the company going through growing pains (it's called pain for a reason) and through funding pains all at the same time. Starting a company is stressful, but going from someplace where you know not only each employee by sight, you also have met their family and pets, to one where the company can no longer all meet in the same room takes a major ability to accept change.
I also think there's a tendency to put off (due to funding concerns) two big aspects of sofware development. Documentation and QA. Every single software developer working on new stuff would give their eye teeth for an assistant who's sole job is to document white boards, take meeting minutes, and update a wiki - very few companies allow anyone to have an assistant any more. And when your small it's more efficient to have everyone test - at least that's what the company I worked at did for a long time - everyone tested when they had a spare moment.......which was often on the weekends.
I'm betting that there is also a certain type of management style with it's own set of business practices that is being born. It takes quite a while for a new industry to fine tune what works over the long haul. Let's take one aspect of MMO's - communication management. Will you play a game that doesn't host its own forums, not to mention actually post in its own forums?
On Time, On Budget, Bug Free. Pick two. 'nuff said.
Clearly someone doesn't understand what goes in to making an MMO. I can't think of a single MMO that has EVER released with two of those criteria. Hell, most don't even release with one. The criteria that seems to set the more professional MMOs apart from the amateurish ones, are:
Efficient use of technology
Primarily Feature complete
Stability
I can't think of any MMO that has ever been on budget. None are bug free (hell most still have bugs to this day), that's the nature of complicated programing. However the better games tend to fix the bugs that primarily effect gameplay. This is true for non-MMO games as well.
As for on-time, most MMOs can't realistically meet their original timetable because there are too many unknown variables in the production process. What we (as players) see in terms of being 'on time' really refers to the game's ability to control marketting. A good example of this would be Guild Wars (or WoW). No one really complained of their delays because they were able to keep their mouth shut about a lot of that stuff, right up until they were close to release.
- As for the constant failure of the MMO industry, I'd say that would really come down to their current inability to take appropriate risks. They do seem to be starting to learn from that though, the problem being that by the time we see the results of this shift it will be 2015 or later
Show me an MMO that learns from past mistakes, both of a design and technical nature, and I'll label it a good MMO.
Heh, every time I hear one of these "those evil devs can't make an MMO on-time and within-budget" rants, I just want to laugh. Tell me again how easy this is! *ROFLMAO* Too funny. Ken
Dude. Its not about easy. Its about deliverance of a product or service in your market/field that one expects another to have a certain level of expertise in. And expertise transcends just the ability to push paper or keep organized a project quality binder of in's and out's. Anyone having a loose cavalier attitude about a quality expectation, especially if that person is a developer, is someone, some could argue, is satisfied with just keeping bugs at bay.
So to anyone that thinks the consumer isn't bright enough to know what they want, rather than to have developers tell them what they actually want but dont know it, or to anyone that thinks that citizens or voters dont know what they want, but to be preached to and laughed about their silliness and talk about what they dont know they want, take a good look around.
Consumers and folks that want to have an interest in a product or service, and in a market that appeals to them, are going to influence the level of success of that product or service despite the potential arrogance of a developer or producer that thinks those consumers, regardless of the market or service arena, dont know what it is that is good for them.
The good products and services that do more than just 'exist' in a market, far outpace their counterparts for a reason. And those products and services that dont garner as much attention or financial success, is ultimately based on those that vote with their wallet.
I laugh at the people that laugh at the people that pay the bills.
People, look, the OP isn't far off. MMOs aren't any different than the rest of the gaming industry other than half the player base out there are elitist pricks that actually think their genre is any more complicated than any other game simply because the server architecture is a little more complex.
The server architecture.... and game balance... and client scene/environment rendering... and patch/expansion creation, integration and deployment... and community management...
Let's go down the line and let's squash this crazy myth MMO architectures are vastly more complicated:
1. Server Architecture.
This depends. One must consider games like MAG which hosts 256 players in real time on the PS3. But perhaps MMOs win this one I will agree if I must. But I say other engines win in other areas. And games like MAG impressively handle 256 clients in real time. No Auto Attacks.
Compared to a MMORPG MAG is a completely different game, yes you have customizing options but they do not come close to what can be done in a MMORPG
2. Game balance
I think RTS games have more balance issues to deal with. Blizzard probably still patches Starxraft to this day. This is debatable
3. Client/Scene Rendering
MMORPGs are way more simple. Just compare the graphics you see in MMORPG to single player games. I rest my case. And if you want to say MMORPGs render more characters I'll say don't go there. I've played console games with hundreds of characters onscreen in HD. Heavenly Sword recently had a crap ton.
Sorry you can NOT compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's, you simply can not. Question in those console games where they hundreds of player characters, or where they just game generated characters? There is such a hugh difference between player generated characters on screen compared to game generated characters.
4. patches
Everyone patches
True regardless what type of game.
5. Deployment
Everyone deals with this. Console devs have to go through extensive Microsoft/Sony certification processes to boot. PC MMOs only deal with who? Oh right they just release in a broken state and patch and patch.....
Unfortunaly this microsoft/sony certification has proven not always to work so flawless as you try to make it look.
You can get source code for MMO engines for games like Ryzom and Lineage 2 (from the korean book). Compare that to some open source engines you can get your hands on.
Anyway there really isn't a meaningful way to really compare engine complexity. I contend if MMORPGs instead went sandbox, they're development times would be drastically reduced. I believe the main issue is content
Oh nice, I noticed you left out AI just now. You must be a coder. Because you know MMORPG AI is way more simple then the AI on average that can be found in console games, etc. I'd expect nothing less of a fellow EVE player. EVE appears to attract a lot of programmers and techies.
Reason is due to the overall game being far more complex then your regular singleplayer game that only needs to deal with ONE player and the rest is just gamegenerated.
Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
Here's my theory based on my experience as a PM (software development) on why we keep seeing the same pattern in new MMO releases. 1) For the most part, they are working together for the first time, developing a first use project which is a known, standard risk that adds to the project delivery date though few people in management appreciate this. 2) No real software development process is in place, with a clearly defined methodology, waterfall, agile etc so the projects suffer from a lot of thrashing during the delivery process. 3) I suspect the projects are lead by Developers, who are probably the least qualified to manage a project from end to end. They rarely can manage all aspects of the software development lifecycle, including requirements and tight change control, quality assurance testing and product implementation planning. 4) Companies such as Blizzard do better because they are established and have many processes in place to ensure higher quality software, vs newer firms with few projects under their belts. Again, just theories since I've not worked inside any of these firms and I'm sure they've got their own set of unique limitations that I'm unaware of.
You wrote the best post I've seen so far (and sadly much better than mine).
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
First and foremost I am no programmer, I think I get to much sunlight or something that you're not supposed to expose yourself to, to become one. Either way I would have to think there's more to the complexities behind MMO development than simply an engine. Games engines for the most part all seem to work in the same way, at least to my eyes and what I have seen.
The tricky part I would guess comes into play in the variables opened up by hundreds of people co existing in a single environment. There are MMO's created on the UE engine, so there is probably not to much difference in regard to that factor. It's everything else that causes an MMO to have more development issues than a single player game ( in my uneducated opinion of course).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People, look, the OP isn't far off. MMOs aren't any different than the rest of the gaming industry other than half the player base out there are elitist pricks that actually think their genre is any more complicated than any other game simply because the server architecture is a little more complex.
The server architecture.... and game balance... and client scene/environment rendering... and patch/expansion creation, integration and deployment... and community management...
Let's go down the line and let's squash this crazy myth MMO architectures are vastly more complicated:
1. Server Architecture.
This depends. One must consider games like MAG which hosts 256 players in real time on the PS3. But perhaps MMOs win this one I will agree if I must. But I say other engines win in other areas. And games like MAG impressively handle 256 clients in real time. No Auto Attacks.
Compared to a MMORPG MAG is a completely different game, yes you have customizing options but they do not come close to what can be done in a MMORPG
2. Game balance
I think RTS games have more balance issues to deal with. Blizzard probably still patches Starxraft to this day. This is debatable
3. Client/Scene Rendering
MMORPGs are way more simple. Just compare the graphics you see in MMORPG to single player games. I rest my case. And if you want to say MMORPGs render more characters I'll say don't go there. I've played console games with hundreds of characters onscreen in HD. Heavenly Sword recently had a crap ton.
Sorry you can NOT compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's, you simply can not. Question in those console games where they hundreds of player characters, or where they just game generated characters? There is such a hugh difference between player generated characters on screen compared to game generated characters.
4. patches
Everyone patches
True regardless what type of game.
5. Deployment
Everyone deals with this. Console devs have to go through extensive Microsoft/Sony certification processes to boot. PC MMOs only deal with who? Oh right they just release in a broken state and patch and patch.....
Unfortunaly this microsoft/sony certification has proven not always to work so flawless as you try to make it look.
You can get source code for MMO engines for games like Ryzom and Lineage 2 (from the korean book). Compare that to some open source engines you can get your hands on.
Anyway there really isn't a meaningful way to really compare engine complexity. I contend if MMORPGs instead went sandbox, they're development times would be drastically reduced. I believe the main issue is content
Oh nice, I noticed you left out AI just now. You must be a coder. Because you know MMORPG AI is way more simple then the AI on average that can be found in console games, etc. I'd expect nothing less of a fellow EVE player. EVE appears to attract a lot of programmers and techies.
Reason is due to the overall game being far more complex then your regular singleplayer game that only needs to deal with ONE player and the rest is just gamegenerated.
Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
To add a few things:
MAG - those 256 are in a controlled dungeon/map/zone/room/whateveryouwanttocallit and they are using pretty much the same models with extremely limited character creation options and extremely limited character customization options. Had MAG's character creation and customization been in an MMO, you'd probably be calling it a 'korean grinder' or another 'cheap asian mmo'.
To even suggest MAG as any form of comparison is a bit of a stretch. MAG is a great game, but it does not do even a fraction of what an MMO does. No economy, no auction house, no crafting, no quest system, limited progression, no housing. There's a much lower load on the databases, much less bandwidth to manage, and - by far - a much smaller and less complex server system. Equally important, the game is done and released. By the time most MMOs release, the team is already working on their first expansion. Sales, marketing, development, publishing, content... no one is done working on that MMO, but for most single-player games, everything is done and wrapped up save for a few coders and artists for follow up maintenance.
And then there's always the on going customer support, including the massive amount of logging and reams of procedures tnecessary to effectively support an MMO.
I'd be willing to bet that at least 1 in 10 of the over-30 posters that post on these forums have done volunteer support or content for some MUD or MMO, if not actually worked/working in the industry. I'm hoping some of them can chime in here to help explain just how massive and complex an endeavor it is to properly create, manage and maintain an MMO compared to some single-player title.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
First and foremost I am no programmer, I think I get to much sunlight or something that you're not supposed to expose yourself to, to become one. Either way I would have to think there's more to the complexities behind MMO development than simply an engine. Games engines for the most part all seem to work in the same way, at least to my eyes and what I have seen.
The tricky part I would guess comes into play in the variables opened up by hundreds of people co existing in a single environment. There are MMO's created on the UE engine, so there is probably not to much difference in regard to that factor. It's everything else that causes an MMO to have more development issues than a single player game ( in my uneducated opinion of course).
Okay I'd be willing to agree MMOs on a 'design level' will perhaps have to deal with a lot more risks then other genres. So yes this is a huge layer of complexity that most game developers do not have to deal with. Sure.
People, look, the OP isn't far off. MMOs aren't any different than the rest of the gaming industry other than half the player base out there are elitist pricks that actually think their genre is any more complicated than any other game simply because the server architecture is a little more complex.
The server architecture.... and game balance... and client scene/environment rendering... and patch/expansion creation, integration and deployment... and community management...
Let's go down the line and let's squash this crazy myth MMO architectures are vastly more complicated:
1. Server Architecture.
This depends. One must consider games like MAG which hosts 256 players in real time on the PS3. But perhaps MMOs win this one I will agree if I must. But I say other engines win in other areas. And games like MAG impressively handle 256 clients in real time. No Auto Attacks.
Compared to a MMORPG MAG is a completely different game, yes you have customizing options but they do not come close to what can be done in a MMORPG
2. Game balance
I think RTS games have more balance issues to deal with. Blizzard probably still patches Starxraft to this day. This is debatable
3. Client/Scene Rendering
MMORPGs are way more simple. Just compare the graphics you see in MMORPG to single player games. I rest my case. And if you want to say MMORPGs render more characters I'll say don't go there. I've played console games with hundreds of characters onscreen in HD. Heavenly Sword recently had a crap ton.
Sorry you can NOT compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's, you simply can not. Question in those console games where they hundreds of player characters, or where they just game generated characters? There is such a hugh difference between player generated characters on screen compared to game generated characters.
4. patches
Everyone patches
True regardless what type of game.
5. Deployment
Everyone deals with this. Console devs have to go through extensive Microsoft/Sony certification processes to boot. PC MMOs only deal with who? Oh right they just release in a broken state and patch and patch.....
Unfortunaly this microsoft/sony certification has proven not always to work so flawless as you try to make it look.
You can get source code for MMO engines for games like Ryzom and Lineage 2 (from the korean book). Compare that to some open source engines you can get your hands on.
Anyway there really isn't a meaningful way to really compare engine complexity. I contend if MMORPGs instead went sandbox, they're development times would be drastically reduced. I believe the main issue is content
Oh nice, I noticed you left out AI just now. You must be a coder. Because you know MMORPG AI is way more simple then the AI on average that can be found in console games, etc. I'd expect nothing less of a fellow EVE player. EVE appears to attract a lot of programmers and techies.
Reason is due to the overall game being far more complex then your regular singleplayer game that only needs to deal with ONE player and the rest is just gamegenerated.
Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
To add a few things:
MAG - those 256 are in a controlled dungeon/map/zone/room/whateveryouwanttocallit and they are using pretty much the same models with extremely limited character creation options and extremely limited character customization options. Had MAG's character creation and customization been in an MMO, you'd probably be calling it a 'korean grinder' or another 'cheap asian mmo'.
To even suggest MAG as any form of comparison is a bit of a stretch. MAG is a great game, but it does not do even a fraction of what an MMO does. No economy, no auction house, no crafting, no quest system, limited progression, no housing. There's a much lower load on the databases, much less bandwidth to manage, and - by far - a much smaller and less complex server system. Equally important, the game is done and released. By the time most MMOs release, the team is already working on their first expansion. Sales, marketing, development, publishing, content... no one is done working on that MMO, but for most single-player games, everything is done and wrapped up save for a few coders and artists for follow up maintenance.
And then there's always the on going customer support, including the massive amount of logging and reams of procedures tnecessary to effectively support an MMO.
I'd be willing to bet that at least 1 in 10 of the over-30 posters that post on these forums have done volunteer support or content for some MUD or MMO, if not actually worked/working in the industry. I'm hoping some of them can chime in here to help explain just how massive and complex an endeavor it is to properly create, manage and maintain an MMO compared to some single-player title.
1. Databases managed by the average business are extremely complex. Products delivered by these industries are often delivered on time and properly scheduled. Having a complex database does not qualify an MMO to justify it has a more complicated architecture. Additionally, in house, most games use SQL for backend and for community features. Just look at Bioware's Dragon Age Origins for example. I can create my character and upload it to the community database for all to see. This is the same feature games like WoW have for example. Additionally, if you use their toolset, you'll see it access a SQL backend for all of their NPCs, etc.
There are other multiplayer / single player games that have extensive online SQL databases.
2. Character creator does not qualify an MMO to have a more complicated architecture. Dragon Age Origins, Fallout 3, and many other single player titles have vastly more sophisticated systems
3. MUDs? There is no need. You can download source code for MMOs and directly compare this to the available sources for Unreal Engine 3, Doom 3, Crysis, and so forth. I challenge to measure their code complexity. But you can't.
4. Economy as well does not qualify an MMO to have a more complicated architecture. Now if you mean on a 'Design Level' that's one thing. But surely the code alone does not justify the complexity
And once we discuss MMO's having a more complex design than I must beg the differ here too. World of Warcraft clones simply copy/paste what WoW does. You don't need a designer for this. Now, if it's an original title then I will have to agree MMOs are very advanced and prone to high risk. But very few titles are original and attempt an economy. Only EVE Online strikes my mind here.
What is it with MMO devs and failing to reach deadlines? If I did that at my job I would get fired. Something is really wrong with management in this industry. Devs of MMOs waste tons of cash and time. It doesn't really take YEARS to program a game with millions of waisted dollars. I don't care what anyone says. If these companies were run efficiently, games wouldn't take 5 years to make then release broken and unfinished. This would be unacceptable in just about every other industry. Yet NO MMO has released on time and finished. Will any company get their act together and actually do quality work on time? Pathetic
I am going to go straight out and say that Eve online was very well polished when it was released (on time), i know because I was in the beta and the first year it was out. The only problems with it was the technology of the servers, which became better as time passed. There are other games that are also well developed and have few bugs, this is one example.
The problem with MMOs releasing before they are ready is that they make grand statements about release dates so that the investors know when they are getting their money's worth. This means that people who have little concept of games development are guiding games development... do I have to point out the obvious flaw here?
Similar issues occur in other industries, a company will quote a time frame and cost to investors/government then find that they are going over time and/or budget. The result is either the investors sue, find a new company, or get the rest of the work done for free.
I can think of a few games development companies where they were sued, the head of development was fired, or developers had to work outside of hours.
I was also under the impression LOTRO released in a solid state from what I gathered here at the forums. I'll never play a PVE focused title like that but it seemed solid from what I saw in beta. I just couldn't see myself paying a monthly sub for a pve MMO though
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
I hate to say this but the Unreal engine is just levels above the the Nel engine in both design and in performance. Nel engine does not have the graphics capabilities. There just is no comparison between them. Unreal games are C++ as with Nel but the engines are just way different in graphic output. First hand experience speaking here.
1. Databases managed by the average business are extremely complex. Products delivered by these industries are often delivered on time and properly scheduled. Having a complex database does not qualify an MMO to justify it has a more complicated architecture. Additionally, in house, most games use SQL for backend and for community features. Just look at Bioware's Dragon Age Origins for example. I can create my character and upload it to the community database for all to see. This is the same feature games like WoW have for example. Additionally, if you use their toolset, you'll see it access a SQL backend for all of their NPCs, etc.
Very good thing to point out the differences in regard to MMOs. Take your database comparison and say that is your typical single-player game.
Now with an MMO think you have one database housing for hundreds-thousands of companies. Now instead of one PC sitting there with a database compiled on it. Think of that PC as the gateway to a database apartment complex, where you control a little pixel man around inside a vault of 1,000,000 file cabinets, each drawer containing a database for a company.
You first have to ensure no-one else can access someones database, you have to make sure no information from one database spills into the next. You have to protect each database from hacking, and keep track of that single companies every move while inside the vault. You can see just on the outside where this starts to grow difficult. Now place this in a live business environment where hundreds-thousands of little pixel men or women are running around opening drawers altering files, adding files, removing them, and at times losing them. You get the picture..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
1. Databases managed by the average business are extremely complex. Products delivered by these industries are often delivered on time and properly scheduled. Having a complex database does not qualify an MMO to justify it has a more complicated architecture. Additionally, in house, most games use SQL for backend and for community features. Just look at Bioware's Dragon Age Origins for example. I can create my character and upload it to the community database for all to see. This is the same feature games like WoW have for example. Additionally, if you use their toolset, you'll see it access a SQL backend for all of their NPCs, etc.
Very good thing to point out the differences in regard to MMOs. Take your database comparison and say that is your typical single-player game.
Now with an MMO think you have one database housing for hundreds-thousands of companies. Now instead of one PC sitting there with a database compiled on it. Think of that PC as the gateway to a database apartment complex, where you control a little pixel man around inside a vault of 1,000,000 file cabinets, each drawer containing a database for a company.
You first have to ensure no-one else can access someones database, you have to make sure no information from one database spills into the next. You have to protect each database from hacking, and keep track of that single companies every move while inside the vault. You can see just on the outside where this starts to grow difficult. Now place this in a live business environment where hundreds-thousands of little pixel men or women are running around opening drawers altering files, adding files, removing them, and at times losing them. You get the picture..
I think you're making an assumption here. We don't have too. You can pulldown the sources for Nel (Ryzom) and compare that to the sources available for Crysis, Unreal 3, Half Life 2, etc.
Clearly Unreal 3 will trump the average MMO in complexity. Just look at the siggraph papers, etc. The cutting edge techniques are most often found in other genres, not MMOs. Additionally, MMO devs have been taking Unreal (primarily an FPS engine) and hooking it up to SQL backends
MMOs are seriously lagging behind on the tech scale. Hence why you guys are still auto-attacking and experiencing what- instances capped at 200? On consoles, they are now fighting in real time with 256+ players running around with no auto attack.
Comments
So even with thorough understanding of the complexity of MMORPG's, their players should continue to accept half-assed, unfinished products (beta-in-a-box)?
Nope, did you see me say/write this to make this asumtion?
Personally, I have to agree with the OP here in that the state games release in these days is completely unacceptable. As the consumer, we shouldn't need to understand the complexities of the industry, only that the product we receive works in an acceptable fashion, and delivers what it claims (whether we like it or not - that isn't the company's responsibility). The notion that MMORPG's are so complex that we should just take the crap that's shoveled down our throats and wait for the company which made it to sticks its finger down our throats to start the gag reflex is absurd.
The thing I noticed mostly is many people have unrealistic expections, they often want to play what is promised instead of playing what is given, again NOT saying we don't need better released games, just saying the ammount of complaints with most games show what I just said, they want to play promises instead of the real thing.
It isn't just that releases of late aren't very fun or lack long-lasting appeal, it's that they're being released in a far more broken state than should be accepted, and yet it seems there is little accountability given that we, the consumers, continue to shell out money to these companies in what (lately) has become a fruitless hunt for the next "big" or "great" MMO. People line up in droves to pre-order, or join this/that site just to pay more to catch a glimpse of the latest release in its beta, only to be disappointed time and time again (something I've observed here at MMORPG.com with releases of the past few years). The biggest problem of all is that people have yet to realize their own stupidity in doing so, so these companies only manage partial failures, most of them likely seeing profit. Regardless, the blame lies on the developers and it's just unfortunate that there's little consequence to what should be failures.
If games are broken then nobody will play them, something again many don't relealize, also NOT saying games are released perfect, would love to see this genre come close to perfection and we might even see this in a few years from now, since this genre is still pretty young compared to the general genre of games. There is also a hugh problem that people these day's try to companre MMORPG that have been out for years with new released MMO's, again that will cloud many people's judgement about the state of MMORPG's.
Its strange people are still pretending as if MMOs are the same as other genres. They are not.
For starters, mmorpgs have significantly more content than other games. The world is also filled with most unpredictable players, not AI. These games are simply bigger and more unpredictable than other games.
I don't care if the release dates get pushed back a hundred times. As long as the game is complete and polished, then I don't care how long it takes to make it. I've survived this long without it, what's a few more years difference going to make?
The reason publishers and developers allow thier games to release unfinished and unpolished is because, we the players, have come to expect that. We have allowed it to happen. We have voted with our money that we would rather the game is released early than finished properly, and thus that is what you are going to get from now on. If you want to make a difference, wait a month or two after a game (particularly MMORPGs) released to purchase it. Read some reviews, make an informed decision rather than letting your ignorance and desperation sway into a preorder.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I am going to go straight out and say that Eve online was very well polished when it was released (on time), i know because I was in the beta and the first year it was out. The only problems with it was the technology of the servers, which became better as time passed. There are other games that are also well developed and have few bugs, this is one example.
The problem with MMOs releasing before they are ready is that they make grand statements about release dates so that the investors know when they are getting their money's worth. This means that people who have little concept of games development are guiding games development... do I have to point out the obvious flaw here?
Similar issues occur in other industries, a company will quote a time frame and cost to investors/government then find that they are going over time and/or budget. The result is either the investors sue, find a new company, or get the rest of the work done for free.
I can think of a few games development companies where they were sued, the head of development was fired, or developers had to work outside of hours.
The answer is to have the company itself be the investor, so the development can proceed without the investor(s) getting in the way of development. However, not many companies have the resources for this, so I wouldn't suggest for a new company to start making MMO's as their first title. It's much easier to jump from successful single/multiplayer games to making MMO's when you have the necessary funds in-house and the much needed experience from making games in general (while it's rarely enough to make a good MMO, it helps a ton).
Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The person whose mortgage payment, kid's college money and retirement fund are laying on the line is going to be the one injecting the most low-risk suggestions into the design and production. Whether that person is an outside investor or the developers themselves.
It sounds like what you are looking for is an independently wealthy benefactor with no Wife, no Kids and no concern with whether he is rich or broke tomorrow.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that the OP is dead on. This is one of the reasons why MMOs really haven't been brought to the console market. Not everyone who owns a console has a hard drive and therefor cannot patch.
I think it has a lot to do with the Executive producers of these games. These people are in charge of drumming up interest and capital and making sure the product delivers to their promises. Or at least that's what they are supposed to do. In reality, they are nothing more than Sales Representatives. They make promises to several sources of investment, usually the largest is a single source, which they are unaware of at the time whether or not they can deliver on. Usually an offline demo is used as a proof of concept with a prototype game engine that is not the one they would be able to use in the real game. It's nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
I had several friends in Artifact Entertainment that worked there for about a year. I was even invited in to poke my head in and say hi a few times. During my time in Mesa what I noticed that they had no structure and no real clear direction. The producers were busy making grand claims to both the public and their investors, while their server team was busy writing prototype server objects named Phillip and Terrance that would send fart and laugh events back and forth to one another. They switched their in game engine three times due to license costs and restrictions vs. an employee who brought their own engine design that was predated his employment there. In addition, one of their tools developer was trying to explain to the server team to stop wasting their time and how to develop a fault tolerant, load balanced server design that he thought up while working at the same company I did the year before.
Needless to say, the reason why I was in Mesa was to convince one of my friends to leave before shit hit the fan. My other friends that worked at AE were not too happy about it, but ironically one of them was laid off the same week while I was there. Did I have to actually work at AE to realize how much of a failure this game and the company in general was? No. People need to stop saying "Well, go build one!" The truth is that the MMO industry is not in it's infancy. It is still young but is about 15 years old, whose predecessor (MUDs) have existed nearly 30 years in the public eye.
The fact is that producers are like the pied pipers of gamers and their dollars. I keep hearing about the publishers to blaim. Usually, unless it's Microsoft (case in point - Turbine), it's the producers from the creators of the game lying to the publishers or "bending the truth". People need to stop being sheep. MMOs are not much more difficult than some of the more complex RPGs out on the market today. It is the mis-management of the game companies and the producers that get them into trouble.
On Time, On Budget, Bug Free.
Pick two.
'nuff said.
Once again, its the consumers that are expectationless, *cough*, that consider that some products and services dont require the same expecation of quality as others. So someone might have a different expectation of quality for purchasing a transportation product, food product or entertainment product? I lol about that show of complete sillyness.
I say otherwise. To think that one would reward the mundane entertainment products in this market, including STO, just because someone was able to show up to work and push papers or put together a "project" binder is very telling as to who those are that are 'enabling' half-baked products and servers. It's the consumers that reward these jokes with cash (purcahse) and executive producer's that get a kick out of delivering something that 'might' resemble a product or service.
Some good points - one thing I'd point out having worked for many years at a startup software company that went from less than 20 employees when I was hired to more than 500 (not game company) is that for MMO's (from what I've observed) the lines get blurred between R&D and Production. Bottom line is any game has to be fun. Any new company that starts up selling software must have something different to offer, and they must be able to find their niche.
What we often see is both the company going through growing pains (it's called pain for a reason) and through funding pains all at the same time. Starting a company is stressful, but going from someplace where you know not only each employee by sight, you also have met their family and pets, to one where the company can no longer all meet in the same room takes a major ability to accept change.
I also think there's a tendency to put off (due to funding concerns) two big aspects of sofware development. Documentation and QA. Every single software developer working on new stuff would give their eye teeth for an assistant who's sole job is to document white boards, take meeting minutes, and update a wiki - very few companies allow anyone to have an assistant any more. And when your small it's more efficient to have everyone test - at least that's what the company I worked at did for a long time - everyone tested when they had a spare moment.......which was often on the weekends.
I'm betting that there is also a certain type of management style with it's own set of business practices that is being born. It takes quite a while for a new industry to fine tune what works over the long haul. Let's take one aspect of MMO's - communication management. Will you play a game that doesn't host its own forums, not to mention actually post in its own forums?
Heh, every time I hear one of these "those evil devs can't make an MMO on-time and within-budget" rants, I just want to laugh.
Tell me again how easy this is! *ROFLMAO*
Too funny.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Word!
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Clearly someone doesn't understand what goes in to making an MMO. I can't think of a single MMO that has EVER released with two of those criteria. Hell, most don't even release with one. The criteria that seems to set the more professional MMOs apart from the amateurish ones, are:
Efficient use of technology
Primarily Feature complete
Stability
I can't think of any MMO that has ever been on budget. None are bug free (hell most still have bugs to this day), that's the nature of complicated programing. However the better games tend to fix the bugs that primarily effect gameplay. This is true for non-MMO games as well.
As for on-time, most MMOs can't realistically meet their original timetable because there are too many unknown variables in the production process. What we (as players) see in terms of being 'on time' really refers to the game's ability to control marketting. A good example of this would be Guild Wars (or WoW). No one really complained of their delays because they were able to keep their mouth shut about a lot of that stuff, right up until they were close to release.
- As for the constant failure of the MMO industry, I'd say that would really come down to their current inability to take appropriate risks. They do seem to be starting to learn from that though, the problem being that by the time we see the results of this shift it will be 2015 or later
Show me an MMO that learns from past mistakes, both of a design and technical nature, and I'll label it a good MMO.
Dude. Its not about easy. Its about deliverance of a product or service in your market/field that one expects another to have a certain level of expertise in. And expertise transcends just the ability to push paper or keep organized a project quality binder of in's and out's. Anyone having a loose cavalier attitude about a quality expectation, especially if that person is a developer, is someone, some could argue, is satisfied with just keeping bugs at bay.
So to anyone that thinks the consumer isn't bright enough to know what they want, rather than to have developers tell them what they actually want but dont know it, or to anyone that thinks that citizens or voters dont know what they want, but to be preached to and laughed about their silliness and talk about what they dont know they want, take a good look around.
Consumers and folks that want to have an interest in a product or service, and in a market that appeals to them, are going to influence the level of success of that product or service despite the potential arrogance of a developer or producer that thinks those consumers, regardless of the market or service arena, dont know what it is that is good for them.
The good products and services that do more than just 'exist' in a market, far outpace their counterparts for a reason. And those products and services that dont garner as much attention or financial success, is ultimately based on those that vote with their wallet.
I laugh at the people that laugh at the people that pay the bills.
The server architecture.... and game balance... and client scene/environment rendering... and patch/expansion creation, integration and deployment... and community management...
Let's go down the line and let's squash this crazy myth MMO architectures are vastly more complicated:
1. Server Architecture.
This depends. One must consider games like MAG which hosts 256 players in real time on the PS3. But perhaps MMOs win this one I will agree if I must. But I say other engines win in other areas. And games like MAG impressively handle 256 clients in real time. No Auto Attacks.
Compared to a MMORPG MAG is a completely different game, yes you have customizing options but they do not come close to what can be done in a MMORPG
2. Game balance
I think RTS games have more balance issues to deal with. Blizzard probably still patches Starxraft to this day. This is debatable
3. Client/Scene Rendering
MMORPGs are way more simple. Just compare the graphics you see in MMORPG to single player games. I rest my case. And if you want to say MMORPGs render more characters I'll say don't go there. I've played console games with hundreds of characters onscreen in HD. Heavenly Sword recently had a crap ton.
Sorry you can NOT compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's, you simply can not. Question in those console games where they hundreds of player characters, or where they just game generated characters? There is such a hugh difference between player generated characters on screen compared to game generated characters.
4. patches
Everyone patches
True regardless what type of game.
5. Deployment
Everyone deals with this. Console devs have to go through extensive Microsoft/Sony certification processes to boot. PC MMOs only deal with who? Oh right they just release in a broken state and patch and patch.....
Unfortunaly this microsoft/sony certification has proven not always to work so flawless as you try to make it look.
You can get source code for MMO engines for games like Ryzom and Lineage 2 (from the korean book). Compare that to some open source engines you can get your hands on.
Anyway there really isn't a meaningful way to really compare engine complexity. I contend if MMORPGs instead went sandbox, they're development times would be drastically reduced. I believe the main issue is content
Oh nice, I noticed you left out AI just now. You must be a coder. Because you know MMORPG AI is way more simple then the AI on average that can be found in console games, etc. I'd expect nothing less of a fellow EVE player. EVE appears to attract a lot of programmers and techies.
Reason is due to the overall game being far more complex then your regular singleplayer game that only needs to deal with ONE player and the rest is just gamegenerated.
Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
You wrote the best post I've seen so far (and sadly much better than mine).
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
First and foremost I am no programmer, I think I get to much sunlight or something that you're not supposed to expose yourself to, to become one. Either way I would have to think there's more to the complexities behind MMO development than simply an engine. Games engines for the most part all seem to work in the same way, at least to my eyes and what I have seen.
The tricky part I would guess comes into play in the variables opened up by hundreds of people co existing in a single environment. There are MMO's created on the UE engine, so there is probably not to much difference in regard to that factor. It's everything else that causes an MMO to have more development issues than a single player game ( in my uneducated opinion of course).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The server architecture.... and game balance... and client scene/environment rendering... and patch/expansion creation, integration and deployment... and community management...
Let's go down the line and let's squash this crazy myth MMO architectures are vastly more complicated:
1. Server Architecture.
This depends. One must consider games like MAG which hosts 256 players in real time on the PS3. But perhaps MMOs win this one I will agree if I must. But I say other engines win in other areas. And games like MAG impressively handle 256 clients in real time. No Auto Attacks.
Compared to a MMORPG MAG is a completely different game, yes you have customizing options but they do not come close to what can be done in a MMORPG
2. Game balance
I think RTS games have more balance issues to deal with. Blizzard probably still patches Starxraft to this day. This is debatable
3. Client/Scene Rendering
MMORPGs are way more simple. Just compare the graphics you see in MMORPG to single player games. I rest my case. And if you want to say MMORPGs render more characters I'll say don't go there. I've played console games with hundreds of characters onscreen in HD. Heavenly Sword recently had a crap ton.
Sorry you can NOT compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's, you simply can not. Question in those console games where they hundreds of player characters, or where they just game generated characters? There is such a hugh difference between player generated characters on screen compared to game generated characters.
4. patches
Everyone patches
True regardless what type of game.
5. Deployment
Everyone deals with this. Console devs have to go through extensive Microsoft/Sony certification processes to boot. PC MMOs only deal with who? Oh right they just release in a broken state and patch and patch.....
Unfortunaly this microsoft/sony certification has proven not always to work so flawless as you try to make it look.
You can get source code for MMO engines for games like Ryzom and Lineage 2 (from the korean book). Compare that to some open source engines you can get your hands on.
Anyway there really isn't a meaningful way to really compare engine complexity. I contend if MMORPGs instead went sandbox, they're development times would be drastically reduced. I believe the main issue is content
Oh nice, I noticed you left out AI just now. You must be a coder. Because you know MMORPG AI is way more simple then the AI on average that can be found in console games, etc. I'd expect nothing less of a fellow EVE player. EVE appears to attract a lot of programmers and techies.
Reason is due to the overall game being far more complex then your regular singleplayer game that only needs to deal with ONE player and the rest is just gamegenerated.
Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
To add a few things:
MAG - those 256 are in a controlled dungeon/map/zone/room/whateveryouwanttocallit and they are using pretty much the same models with extremely limited character creation options and extremely limited character customization options. Had MAG's character creation and customization been in an MMO, you'd probably be calling it a 'korean grinder' or another 'cheap asian mmo'.
To even suggest MAG as any form of comparison is a bit of a stretch. MAG is a great game, but it does not do even a fraction of what an MMO does. No economy, no auction house, no crafting, no quest system, limited progression, no housing. There's a much lower load on the databases, much less bandwidth to manage, and - by far - a much smaller and less complex server system. Equally important, the game is done and released. By the time most MMOs release, the team is already working on their first expansion. Sales, marketing, development, publishing, content... no one is done working on that MMO, but for most single-player games, everything is done and wrapped up save for a few coders and artists for follow up maintenance.
And then there's always the on going customer support, including the massive amount of logging and reams of procedures tnecessary to effectively support an MMO.
I'd be willing to bet that at least 1 in 10 of the over-30 posters that post on these forums have done volunteer support or content for some MUD or MMO, if not actually worked/working in the industry. I'm hoping some of them can chime in here to help explain just how massive and complex an endeavor it is to properly create, manage and maintain an MMO compared to some single-player title.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
First and foremost I am no programmer, I think I get to much sunlight or something that you're not supposed to expose yourself to, to become one. Either way I would have to think there's more to the complexities behind MMO development than simply an engine. Games engines for the most part all seem to work in the same way, at least to my eyes and what I have seen.
The tricky part I would guess comes into play in the variables opened up by hundreds of people co existing in a single environment. There are MMO's created on the UE engine, so there is probably not to much difference in regard to that factor. It's everything else that causes an MMO to have more development issues than a single player game ( in my uneducated opinion of course).
Okay I'd be willing to agree MMOs on a 'design level' will perhaps have to deal with a lot more risks then other genres. So yes this is a huge layer of complexity that most game developers do not have to deal with. Sure.
Actually the thread should be renamed to constant QQ of MMO players.
The server architecture.... and game balance... and client scene/environment rendering... and patch/expansion creation, integration and deployment... and community management...
Let's go down the line and let's squash this crazy myth MMO architectures are vastly more complicated:
1. Server Architecture.
This depends. One must consider games like MAG which hosts 256 players in real time on the PS3. But perhaps MMOs win this one I will agree if I must. But I say other engines win in other areas. And games like MAG impressively handle 256 clients in real time. No Auto Attacks.
Compared to a MMORPG MAG is a completely different game, yes you have customizing options but they do not come close to what can be done in a MMORPG
2. Game balance
I think RTS games have more balance issues to deal with. Blizzard probably still patches Starxraft to this day. This is debatable
3. Client/Scene Rendering
MMORPGs are way more simple. Just compare the graphics you see in MMORPG to single player games. I rest my case. And if you want to say MMORPGs render more characters I'll say don't go there. I've played console games with hundreds of characters onscreen in HD. Heavenly Sword recently had a crap ton.
Sorry you can NOT compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's, you simply can not. Question in those console games where they hundreds of player characters, or where they just game generated characters? There is such a hugh difference between player generated characters on screen compared to game generated characters.
4. patches
Everyone patches
True regardless what type of game.
5. Deployment
Everyone deals with this. Console devs have to go through extensive Microsoft/Sony certification processes to boot. PC MMOs only deal with who? Oh right they just release in a broken state and patch and patch.....
Unfortunaly this microsoft/sony certification has proven not always to work so flawless as you try to make it look.
You can get source code for MMO engines for games like Ryzom and Lineage 2 (from the korean book). Compare that to some open source engines you can get your hands on.
Anyway there really isn't a meaningful way to really compare engine complexity. I contend if MMORPGs instead went sandbox, they're development times would be drastically reduced. I believe the main issue is content
Oh nice, I noticed you left out AI just now. You must be a coder. Because you know MMORPG AI is way more simple then the AI on average that can be found in console games, etc. I'd expect nothing less of a fellow EVE player. EVE appears to attract a lot of programmers and techies.
Reason is due to the overall game being far more complex then your regular singleplayer game that only needs to deal with ONE player and the rest is just gamegenerated.
Aslong people TRY to compare singleplayer games with MMORPG's we will not see those people actualy understanding the complexity of MMORPG's.
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
To add a few things:
MAG - those 256 are in a controlled dungeon/map/zone/room/whateveryouwanttocallit and they are using pretty much the same models with extremely limited character creation options and extremely limited character customization options. Had MAG's character creation and customization been in an MMO, you'd probably be calling it a 'korean grinder' or another 'cheap asian mmo'.
To even suggest MAG as any form of comparison is a bit of a stretch. MAG is a great game, but it does not do even a fraction of what an MMO does. No economy, no auction house, no crafting, no quest system, limited progression, no housing. There's a much lower load on the databases, much less bandwidth to manage, and - by far - a much smaller and less complex server system. Equally important, the game is done and released. By the time most MMOs release, the team is already working on their first expansion. Sales, marketing, development, publishing, content... no one is done working on that MMO, but for most single-player games, everything is done and wrapped up save for a few coders and artists for follow up maintenance.
And then there's always the on going customer support, including the massive amount of logging and reams of procedures tnecessary to effectively support an MMO.
I'd be willing to bet that at least 1 in 10 of the over-30 posters that post on these forums have done volunteer support or content for some MUD or MMO, if not actually worked/working in the industry. I'm hoping some of them can chime in here to help explain just how massive and complex an endeavor it is to properly create, manage and maintain an MMO compared to some single-player title.
1. Databases managed by the average business are extremely complex. Products delivered by these industries are often delivered on time and properly scheduled. Having a complex database does not qualify an MMO to justify it has a more complicated architecture. Additionally, in house, most games use SQL for backend and for community features. Just look at Bioware's Dragon Age Origins for example. I can create my character and upload it to the community database for all to see. This is the same feature games like WoW have for example. Additionally, if you use their toolset, you'll see it access a SQL backend for all of their NPCs, etc.
There are other multiplayer / single player games that have extensive online SQL databases.
2. Character creator does not qualify an MMO to have a more complicated architecture. Dragon Age Origins, Fallout 3, and many other single player titles have vastly more sophisticated systems
3. MUDs? There is no need. You can download source code for MMOs and directly compare this to the available sources for Unreal Engine 3, Doom 3, Crysis, and so forth. I challenge to measure their code complexity. But you can't.
4. Economy as well does not qualify an MMO to have a more complicated architecture. Now if you mean on a 'Design Level' that's one thing. But surely the code alone does not justify the complexity
And once we discuss MMO's having a more complex design than I must beg the differ here too. World of Warcraft clones simply copy/paste what WoW does. You don't need a designer for this. Now, if it's an original title then I will have to agree MMOs are very advanced and prone to high risk. But very few titles are original and attempt an economy. Only EVE Online strikes my mind here.
I am going to go straight out and say that Eve online was very well polished when it was released (on time), i know because I was in the beta and the first year it was out. The only problems with it was the technology of the servers, which became better as time passed. There are other games that are also well developed and have few bugs, this is one example.
The problem with MMOs releasing before they are ready is that they make grand statements about release dates so that the investors know when they are getting their money's worth. This means that people who have little concept of games development are guiding games development... do I have to point out the obvious flaw here?
Similar issues occur in other industries, a company will quote a time frame and cost to investors/government then find that they are going over time and/or budget. The result is either the investors sue, find a new company, or get the rest of the work done for free.
I can think of a few games development companies where they were sued, the head of development was fired, or developers had to work outside of hours.
I was also under the impression LOTRO released in a solid state from what I gathered here at the forums. I'll never play a PVE focused title like that but it seemed solid from what I saw in beta. I just couldn't see myself paying a monthly sub for a pve MMO though
You are obviously not a programmer. I challenge you to go download the open source version of Ryzom and Lineage 2 (published in a book). Show me why this engine is more complex than Unreal Engine 3 for example.
I hate to say this but the Unreal engine is just levels above the the Nel engine in both design and in performance. Nel engine does not have the graphics capabilities. There just is no comparison between them. Unreal games are C++ as with Nel but the engines are just way different in graphic output. First hand experience speaking here.
1. Databases managed by the average business are extremely complex. Products delivered by these industries are often delivered on time and properly scheduled. Having a complex database does not qualify an MMO to justify it has a more complicated architecture. Additionally, in house, most games use SQL for backend and for community features. Just look at Bioware's Dragon Age Origins for example. I can create my character and upload it to the community database for all to see. This is the same feature games like WoW have for example. Additionally, if you use their toolset, you'll see it access a SQL backend for all of their NPCs, etc.
Very good thing to point out the differences in regard to MMOs. Take your database comparison and say that is your typical single-player game.
Now with an MMO think you have one database housing for hundreds-thousands of companies. Now instead of one PC sitting there with a database compiled on it. Think of that PC as the gateway to a database apartment complex, where you control a little pixel man around inside a vault of 1,000,000 file cabinets, each drawer containing a database for a company.
You first have to ensure no-one else can access someones database, you have to make sure no information from one database spills into the next. You have to protect each database from hacking, and keep track of that single companies every move while inside the vault. You can see just on the outside where this starts to grow difficult. Now place this in a live business environment where hundreds-thousands of little pixel men or women are running around opening drawers altering files, adding files, removing them, and at times losing them. You get the picture..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
1. Databases managed by the average business are extremely complex. Products delivered by these industries are often delivered on time and properly scheduled. Having a complex database does not qualify an MMO to justify it has a more complicated architecture. Additionally, in house, most games use SQL for backend and for community features. Just look at Bioware's Dragon Age Origins for example. I can create my character and upload it to the community database for all to see. This is the same feature games like WoW have for example. Additionally, if you use their toolset, you'll see it access a SQL backend for all of their NPCs, etc.
Very good thing to point out the differences in regard to MMOs. Take your database comparison and say that is your typical single-player game.
Now with an MMO think you have one database housing for hundreds-thousands of companies. Now instead of one PC sitting there with a database compiled on it. Think of that PC as the gateway to a database apartment complex, where you control a little pixel man around inside a vault of 1,000,000 file cabinets, each drawer containing a database for a company.
You first have to ensure no-one else can access someones database, you have to make sure no information from one database spills into the next. You have to protect each database from hacking, and keep track of that single companies every move while inside the vault. You can see just on the outside where this starts to grow difficult. Now place this in a live business environment where hundreds-thousands of little pixel men or women are running around opening drawers altering files, adding files, removing them, and at times losing them. You get the picture..
I think you're making an assumption here. We don't have too. You can pulldown the sources for Nel (Ryzom) and compare that to the sources available for Crysis, Unreal 3, Half Life 2, etc.
Clearly Unreal 3 will trump the average MMO in complexity. Just look at the siggraph papers, etc. The cutting edge techniques are most often found in other genres, not MMOs. Additionally, MMO devs have been taking Unreal (primarily an FPS engine) and hooking it up to SQL backends
MMOs are seriously lagging behind on the tech scale. Hence why you guys are still auto-attacking and experiencing what- instances capped at 200? On consoles, they are now fighting in real time with 256+ players running around with no auto attack.