When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
Item malls are great for a game. Without them we would not see half of the options we have today.
Want a server transfer? Item Mall.
Want extra character slots? Item Mall.
Want that cool looking costume? Item Mall.
You say that they should all be free... but history has shown that without a way to charge for these, none of these would have been an option. They would just be things that you 'dont have'. With the Item mall, they become options that you can have for a price.... and often bring with them more free items.
Companies are in it for the money, and if you can meet them half way, and get something useful for your money, they can bring you more things as well.
When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game?
They keep an F2P afloat.
That's a pretty good thing for those F2P players who don't use the item-mall.
I kinda like the concept; gouge the "hardcore" players who take the game way too seriously and drop craploads of cash in the item shops, and pass that benefit on to the casual crowd by removing the subscription fee.
In a P2P they're a complete cash grab, ofc.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The world of MMO’s was one where gaming companies made great games we wanted to play and so were happy to pay a subscription. But it is becoming a world were gaming companies make software that generates income. We even recently had an article on Entropia Universe which is a G2P (Gamble to Play) MMO, you gamble with various MMO like options to try to make money.
MMO’s are entertainment; if they do that well and we flock to them. Make them a cash cow and we will look elsewhere.
Server transfers are a legitimate player request, but one that should be charged for. Changing gender and name is not a legitimate player request but they are still charged for.
When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
More Money means they are able to pay the bills and hire a surplus of extra people.Extra people means more devs to work more content and people to work on the game problems.
Every big game has a item mall WoW,AoC,Aion,War they all have them.If you honestly think character changes,server changes,racial changes,and character slots should cost money, you are big sucker.Games are business,their job is to make money.If business has a surplus it can expand. and have more content
If the item in the item mall does give other player an advantage,what is the harm.As long as the playfield is even let people buy the costume items and pets,cosmetic changes i don't care,It means more money in the game,more money in the game means the game lives longer and gets more content.
When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
Item malls are good for EVERY game, to people that like item malls.
Item malls are BAD for every game, to people that dont' like item malls.
What is "greed" in a business?
At what point do you think a business says, well, we could make MORE money, but we don't want to, because that would be greedy.
you think that's at 1 million dollars, 10 million, 100 million, a Billion, 100 Billion?
Or, do you think a business says, this decision will make us more money than that decision, and then they go with the most profitable decision?
What do you think stockholders would do if a business told them, we could make you more money on your stock, but we think that's a bad idea because it would be "greedy"?
What do you think makes more money? A crappy game, or a good game?
Who makes more money, a "greedy" developer that makes a good game, or a nice developer that makes a bad game?
Why would you care if person has a leveling advantage over you,he is paying for you to play for free.
The big mistake with people and F2P games is assuming the game is free,I really wish their was a strong push to call these games Micro Transaction MMOs.All stupid hatred of MT mmos comes from people to cheap to spend money in game they think completely free.I never complain about people getting advantage over me because in every free to play mmo i willing to spend
-15 dollars a month
-59.99 one time
Yes i am willing to spend the same amount of money i do P2P game the only difference,I choose when i spend money and don't feel force to play a game because i am spending 15 dollars a month on it and if i don't play it i am wasting 15 dollars.
Now here is the truth,I have not played F2P game yet that was worth of me drop the 60 dollars in it but i have played Requiem,DDO,TCOS, and Rom which are pretty close.I am playing Allods which is at least worth spending 7 -14 dollars a month and is the first game i am considering using 60 dollars in it.The F2P play market is improving.
Why would you care if person has a leveling advantage over you,he is paying for you to play for free. The big mistake with people and F2P games is assuming the game is free,I really wish their was a strong push to call these games Micro Transaction MMOs.All stupid hatred of MT mmos comes from people to cheap to spend money in game they think completely free.I never complain about people getting advantage over me because in every free to play mmo i willing to spend -15 dollars a month -59.99 one time Yes i am willing to spend the same amount of money i do P2P game the only difference,I choose when i spend money and don't feel force to play a game because i am spending 15 dollars a month on it and if i don't play it i am wasting 15 dollars. Now here is the truth,I have not played F2P game yet that was worth of me drop the 60 dollars in it but i have played Requiem,DDO,TCOS, and Rom which are pretty close.I am playing Allods which is at least worth spending 7 -14 dollars a month and is the first game i am considering using 60 dollars in it.The F2P play market is improving.
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Why would you care if person has a leveling advantage over you,he is paying for you to play for free. The big mistake with people and F2P games is assuming the game is free,I really wish their was a strong push to call these games Micro Transaction MMOs.All stupid hatred of MT mmos comes from people to cheap to spend money in game they think completely free.I never complain about people getting advantage over me because in every free to play mmo i willing to spend -15 dollars a month -59.99 one time Yes i am willing to spend the same amount of money i do P2P game the only difference,I choose when i spend money and don't feel force to play a game because i am spending 15 dollars a month on it and if i don't play it i am wasting 15 dollars. Now here is the truth,I have not played F2P game yet that was worth of me drop the 60 dollars in it but i have played Requiem,DDO,TCOS, and Rom which are pretty close.I am playing Allods which is at least worth spending 7 -14 dollars a month and is the first game i am considering using 60 dollars in it.The F2P play market is improving.
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Since you have more time than money, it seems equitable to you that in a game where two people pay 15 USD each, one advances faster because he has more time. However, in a game where a person can, but doesn't necessarily, spend money to level the time/money playing field, you feel that is inequitable.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why would you care if person has a leveling advantage over you,he is paying for you to play for free. The big mistake with people and F2P games is assuming the game is free,I really wish their was a strong push to call these games Micro Transaction MMOs.All stupid hatred of MT mmos comes from people to cheap to spend money in game they think completely free.I never complain about people getting advantage over me because in every free to play mmo i willing to spend -15 dollars a month -59.99 one time Yes i am willing to spend the same amount of money i do P2P game the only difference,I choose when i spend money and don't feel force to play a game because i am spending 15 dollars a month on it and if i don't play it i am wasting 15 dollars. Now here is the truth,I have not played F2P game yet that was worth of me drop the 60 dollars in it but i have played Requiem,DDO,TCOS, and Rom which are pretty close.I am playing Allods which is at least worth spending 7 -14 dollars a month and is the first game i am considering using 60 dollars in it.The F2P play market is improving.
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Uneven playfield is what allows the game to be free for some.For me it is not about how fast a person level, i don't care as long as when i am level 25 and you are level 25 i fair shot at beating you,and other person didn't win because he had some potion from the shop.
I am willing to work for my levels and play for free,while others are impatient and spend their money to progress faster.I don't care you can buy in shop stuff as long as i get a fair shot to get in a game.As long as battles are not who is spend money on cash shop item i don't care.
If people want to pay for me i will let them,As long at of day MY 25 level character killed 10,000 mobs,50 hours and 50 quests and free is equal to your 25 level character killed 5,000 mobs,25 hours and 25 quests,150 dollars.
Time & Grinding = Money and Quick Progression in my book
Why would you care if person has a leveling advantage over you,he is paying for you to play for free. The big mistake with people and F2P games is assuming the game is free,I really wish their was a strong push to call these games Micro Transaction MMOs.All stupid hatred of MT mmos comes from people to cheap to spend money in game they think completely free.I never complain about people getting advantage over me because in every free to play mmo i willing to spend -15 dollars a month -59.99 one time Yes i am willing to spend the same amount of money i do P2P game the only difference,I choose when i spend money and don't feel force to play a game because i am spending 15 dollars a month on it and if i don't play it i am wasting 15 dollars. Now here is the truth,I have not played F2P game yet that was worth of me drop the 60 dollars in it but i have played Requiem,DDO,TCOS, and Rom which are pretty close.I am playing Allods which is at least worth spending 7 -14 dollars a month and is the first game i am considering using 60 dollars in it.The F2P play market is improving.
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Since you have more time than money, it seems equitable to you that in a game where two people pay 15 USD each, one advances faster because he has more time. However, in a game where a person can, but doesn't necessarily, spend money to level the time/money playing field, you feel that is inequitable.
The measure is NOT time, but is instead completed content. That is the aspect that makes the game feel fair to me.
IMO, the 15 bucks a month is negligible, in other words so cheap for the amount of gaming you get, that it's not really worth taking into consideration.
I don't feel you are advancing faster than me because you have more time, because I measure the advance in terms of CONTENT completed.
How many mobs did you kill, how many quests did you complete?
It really doesn't matter to me if you killed those mobs and completed those quests in a day, a week, or a year.
I know that to get to level 25 you completed 50 quests and killed approximately 6K mobs.
IN a P2P game, there's no way to skip content. You can cheat by purchasing gold from gold farmers, but no game can stop all cheating.
ALL level 25 characters will do roughly the SAME content to get to the SAME place.
This makes the game feel fair to me, like all characters are on a level playing field.
I do not mind if you feel differently, if this does not feel "fair" to you. That's perfectly fine. If you feel a F2P game feels more "fair", or equally fair to P2P games, that's perfectly valid. If that's what you enjoy, by all means, play F2P games and enjoy them.
But I think you have to acknowledge that you cannot argue me into feeling that F2P is fair. I will either feel that it is, or I won't.
Similarly, I would not try to argue you into feeling a F2P game is unfair. If YOU feel it's fair, then for you, it is.
Most F2P MMO’s have PvP, so it is not just a matter of time and who gets to end level first. Paying for better items to win in PvP is as unfair as it gets.
F2P companies know that no matter how many items they have they can only create and sell new ones every so often, tempting players with the latest must have upgrades. So how do you create a regular income from PvP rather than a one dependent on new armour sets? Welcome to the world of cash shop temporary boosts, which give the edge in PvP that you need!
This is what I mean when I say that a microtransaction revenue model lends itself towards abusing customers, and finding more and more ways to milk them for extra cash. Rather than concentrate on making the game better so we want to play it, staff spend a lot of time thinking about how to make more money from the cash shop. This is the essential differance in design ethos that the revenue system creates.
I am willing to work for my levels and play for free,while others are impatient and spend their money to progress faster.I don't care you can buy in shop stuff as long as i get a fair shot to get in a game.As long as battles are not who is spend money on cash shop item i don't care. If people want to pay for me i will let them,As long at of day MY 25 level character killed 10,000 mobs,50 hours and 50 quests and free is equal to your 25 level character killed 5,000 mobs,25 hours and 25 quests,150 dollars. Time & Grinding = Money and Quick Progression in my book
Agreed. My concern is only in the few MMOs where I'm playing for the PVP, and then it's simply a matter of an item shop that does not allow a person to buy an IWIN button.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Personally I'm of the belief that any item, advancement, or otherwise player attainable 'thing' in an MMO should be acquired within the game, and only within the game. The moment something is "bought" or otherwise "obtained" through out of game means, then it cheapens the core game. This is especially so if said items are created on the fly, and even more so when they are exclusively obtained through out of game means.
It's a moneygrab, pure and simple. If I play a P2P game, I don't want content to be gated through out of game avenues, because I already pay my $15 a month that is meant to open all available content. But trading card games with bonus ingame items, item malls, and other promotional specialty items... eugh... that just ruins the feel of the game. Expansions of course are a completely different animal, and I am not expecting those to be free, even though some MMOs have no problem giving them away for free (EVE).
Atlantica Online is a good example of a game with an item mall that is very good. You aren't forced to buy anything to be competitive, they just give small boosts in PvP which is seperated into divisions based on win/loss so it doesn't matter too much, you just won't earn PvP points as fast as you could probably. You can't blame companies for finding different ways to make money for their games.
That is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on this board lately. You can't be competitive in pvp in Atlantica without extensive use of the item shop. Get higher in level before you make such rash judgements.
Item shops make pvp a joke, it is all about who spent more money on their character.
The moment something is "bought" or otherwise "obtained" through out of game means, then it cheapens the core game. If the point of the game is to do tasks specifically to gain the items that are also being sold, then I agree. Games like WOW - gear-centric MMOs where repeating the same dungoen over and over to get better equipment is the object of the game - are games where I could see a lot of people having issue with the ability to buy gear, even if it's just stat-less lipstick or a different colored straw hat. The people that 'worked' for their gear would be very very upset.
Expansions of course are a completely different animal, and I am not expecting those to be free, even though some MMOs have no problem giving them away for free (EVE). Is it possible that you consider expansions to be different simply because you are accustomed to that extra purchase? If not, then what are your thoughts on these two scenarios
1) Subscription
Initial 30-50 USD retial box putrchase
Pay 15 USD monthly whether you play or not
Level and content cap increase only available through a 30-60 USD purchase
Must buy all previous expansions in order to buy/use latest expansion. For those that don't play subscription games, here's an example: If you played WOW when it came out and want to now try Lich King, you have to buy Burning Crusade (30USD) and Lich King (40 USD) in order to resubscribe (15 USD). That's 85 USD to be able to get up to speed in WOW.
2) Non-subscription
Free client download
Free to play
Free expansions
All additional items optional purchases, with 80-90% of the playerbase never spending a single dime ingame.
What is it about expansions that makes it much more palatable than item malls?
I'm not aasking that to contest you opinion on the matter, but to get your opinion on the matter. I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer here as there is none. I really would like to get your view on why expansions are more acceptable and considered 'a different animal.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Expansions of course are a completely different animal, and I am not expecting those to be free, even though some MMOs have no problem giving them away for free (EVE). Is it possible that you consider expansions to be different simply because you are accustomed to that extra purchase? If not, then what are your thoughts on these two scenarios
1) Subscription
Initial 30-50 USD retial box putrchase
Pay 15 USD monthly whether you play or not
Level and content cap increase only available through a 30-60 USD purchase
Must buy all previous expansions in order to buy/use latest expansion. For those that don't play subscription games, here's an example: If you played WOW when it came out and want to now try Lich King, you have to buy Burning Crusade (30USD) and Lich King (40 USD) in order to resubscribe (15 USD). That's 85 USD to be able to get up to speed in WOW.
2) Non-subscription
Free client download
Free to play
Free expansions
All additional items optional purchases, with 80-90% of the playerbase never spending a single dime ingame.
What is it about expansions that makes it much more palatable than item malls?
I'm not aasking that to contest you opinion on the matter, but to get your opinion on the matter. I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer here as there is none. I really would like to get your view on why expansions are more acceptable and considered 'a different animal.'
I consider expansions an exception because they are extensions of core game content. They unlock further progression, areas, and usually new game mechanics and/or concepts. They take a good deal of development to create, more so than a regular content patch, so their costs are more reasonable per the cost it took to create said content. Additionally, expansions do not dump 'achievements' in your lap the moment you purchase them, they simply open up new avenues of advancement, which you still have to play through to advance. Item shops on the other hand, you pay to instantly receive items/buffs/bonuses. Another thing that really bothers be about RMT is that the developers charge several dollars for things that cost a small investment to create initially, and cost virtually nothing to replicate infinitely, so they end up making a ridiculous profit on something that is arguably took very little to 'produce'.
I can also understand the resentment of paying for an item that you feel cost little to make and nothing to reproduce. However, in a situation like that, it's more demand than anything else that justifies the price - people paying what they feel something is worth for an item they want or need.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Good points. I can also understand the resentment of paying for an item that you feel cost little to make and nothing to reproduce. However, in a situation like that, it's more demand than anything else that justifies the price - people paying what they feel something is worth for an item they want or need.
Which would be all well and good except that many developers with item shops artificially create the need for certain item shop products.
Lower the rate of normal XP gain or increase the required amount of XP, then sell XP bonus potions, for example.
Atlantica Online is a good example of a game with an item mall that is very good. You aren't forced to buy anything to be competitive, they just give small boosts in PvP which is seperated into divisions based on win/loss so it doesn't matter too much, you just won't earn PvP points as fast as you could probably. You can't blame companies for finding different ways to make money for their games.
That is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on this board lately. You can't be competitive in pvp in Atlantica without extensive use of the item shop. Get higher in level before you make such rash judgements.
Item shops make pvp a joke, it is all about who spent more money on their character.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Let companies who want to make more money be up front and honest and just charge more per month.
~and you are willing to pay more?
Let's be honest, the moment a sub rate rises you folk will be raising a bigger stink than when the CS forces you to buy oxygen.
Originally posted by Zekiah
Item malls = fail and I refuse to support them.
Originally posted by Rockgod99
Why?
Because it's cool to hate. There are people who hate CS without ever even had played an F2P game, people who hate botters/cheaters without having ever seen one, and people who refuse to play Eastern games because they are too grindy according to others. We are living in times where popular opinion mutates from lack of experience and blatant idiocy.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Because it creates game imbalance and greed. The player with the most cash wins and that's ridiculous. And if game companies are so greedy that they need to charge players for content (outside or instead of a monthly payment), I'm not going to play the game. Period.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
If you want to play a F2P game, money has to come from somewhere to support the game. Thus, it is good because it allows a game to keep running. Without it, you don't get to play the game.
DDO is a good example. I play it for a while and have fun. I would NOT have this fun if not for the item mall, which i did NOT use. The point of playing a MMO, like all other entertainment, is to have fun. I don't see how having an item mall in DDO will detract me from doing that. I go on adventures, kill mobs and get treasure. It does not defeat the purpose of running a dungeon.
And if someone buys some healing potions so that they can run the dungeon easier, it does not affect me.
Comments
Item malls are great for a game. Without them we would not see half of the options we have today.
Want a server transfer? Item Mall.
Want extra character slots? Item Mall.
Want that cool looking costume? Item Mall.
You say that they should all be free... but history has shown that without a way to charge for these, none of these would have been an option. They would just be things that you 'dont have'. With the Item mall, they become options that you can have for a price.... and often bring with them more free items.
Companies are in it for the money, and if you can meet them half way, and get something useful for your money, they can bring you more things as well.
They keep an F2P afloat.
That's a pretty good thing for those F2P players who don't use the item-mall.
I kinda like the concept; gouge the "hardcore" players who take the game way too seriously and drop craploads of cash in the item shops, and pass that benefit on to the casual crowd by removing the subscription fee.
In a P2P they're a complete cash grab, ofc.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The world of MMO’s was one where gaming companies made great games we wanted to play and so were happy to pay a subscription. But it is becoming a world were gaming companies make software that generates income. We even recently had an article on Entropia Universe which is a G2P (Gamble to Play) MMO, you gamble with various MMO like options to try to make money.
MMO’s are entertainment; if they do that well and we flock to them. Make them a cash cow and we will look elsewhere.
Server transfers are a legitimate player request, but one that should be charged for. Changing gender and name is not a legitimate player request but they are still charged for.
More Money means they are able to pay the bills and hire a surplus of extra people.Extra people means more devs to work more content and people to work on the game problems.
Every big game has a item mall WoW,AoC,Aion,War they all have them.If you honestly think character changes,server changes,racial changes,and character slots should cost money, you are big sucker.Games are business,their job is to make money.If business has a surplus it can expand. and have more content
If the item in the item mall does give other player an advantage,what is the harm.As long as the playfield is even let people buy the costume items and pets,cosmetic changes i don't care,It means more money in the game,more money in the game means the game lives longer and gets more content.
Items malls are good even with subs.
Item malls are good for EVERY game, to people that like item malls.
Item malls are BAD for every game, to people that dont' like item malls.
What is "greed" in a business?
At what point do you think a business says, well, we could make MORE money, but we don't want to, because that would be greedy.
you think that's at 1 million dollars, 10 million, 100 million, a Billion, 100 Billion?
Or, do you think a business says, this decision will make us more money than that decision, and then they go with the most profitable decision?
What do you think stockholders would do if a business told them, we could make you more money on your stock, but we think that's a bad idea because it would be "greedy"?
What do you think makes more money? A crappy game, or a good game?
Who makes more money, a "greedy" developer that makes a good game, or a nice developer that makes a bad game?
Why would you care if person has a leveling advantage over you,he is paying for you to play for free.
The big mistake with people and F2P games is assuming the game is free,I really wish their was a strong push to call these games Micro Transaction MMOs.All stupid hatred of MT mmos comes from people to cheap to spend money in game they think completely free.I never complain about people getting advantage over me because in every free to play mmo i willing to spend
-15 dollars a month
-59.99 one time
Yes i am willing to spend the same amount of money i do P2P game the only difference,I choose when i spend money and don't feel force to play a game because i am spending 15 dollars a month on it and if i don't play it i am wasting 15 dollars.
Now here is the truth,I have not played F2P game yet that was worth of me drop the 60 dollars in it but i have played Requiem,DDO,TCOS, and Rom which are pretty close.I am playing Allods which is at least worth spending 7 -14 dollars a month and is the first game i am considering using 60 dollars in it.The F2P play market is improving.
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Since you have more time than money, it seems equitable to you that in a game where two people pay 15 USD each, one advances faster because he has more time. However, in a game where a person can, but doesn't necessarily, spend money to level the time/money playing field, you feel that is inequitable.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Uneven playfield is what allows the game to be free for some.For me it is not about how fast a person level, i don't care as long as when i am level 25 and you are level 25 i fair shot at beating you,and other person didn't win because he had some potion from the shop.
I am willing to work for my levels and play for free,while others are impatient and spend their money to progress faster.I don't care you can buy in shop stuff as long as i get a fair shot to get in a game.As long as battles are not who is spend money on cash shop item i don't care.
If people want to pay for me i will let them,As long at of day MY 25 level character killed 10,000 mobs,50 hours and 50 quests and free is equal to your 25 level character killed 5,000 mobs,25 hours and 25 quests,150 dollars.
Time & Grinding = Money and Quick Progression in my book
Here is the difference for me.
I don't want you to determine the rate of progress of your character with money, but with content completed.
Then I know, all characters are equal, based on hours spent completing content.
I expect my 60 hour character, to be roughly equal to your 60 hour character, to ALL 60 hour characters in the game.
I expect my 200 hour character to be roughly equal to all 200 hour characters in the game.
Why? Because in a P2P game, you can only increase your progression with completed content.
If I'm level 25, and you are level 25, we have both completed the SAME content more or less. There is no other way to reach level 25.
For me, that means the game has a level playing field.
In a F2P game, I don't know if you spent 60 bucks, and 20 hours, or 200 hours and zero bucks, or god knows what sort of combination you used to get to the progression you are now.
For me, that means the game is NOT a level playing field, in other words all characters are not equal. Characters are instead based on varying combinations of time, and money.
I simply prefer games where there is a level playing field, and all characters are equal.
If you had a game where there was an item mall and EVERYTHING was based on money, that would be fine.
You buy all gear, all levels, all stats, all abilities.
That would mean EVERY players spent exactly the same amount of money on progression, which would be a level playing field.
My 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, and YOUR 25 level character would cost 80 bucks, perfectly equal.
If not that, then I prefer completed content. My 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests, YOUR 25 level character killed 6,000 mobs and completed 50 quests. Equal.
Since you have more time than money, it seems equitable to you that in a game where two people pay 15 USD each, one advances faster because he has more time. However, in a game where a person can, but doesn't necessarily, spend money to level the time/money playing field, you feel that is inequitable.
The measure is NOT time, but is instead completed content. That is the aspect that makes the game feel fair to me.
IMO, the 15 bucks a month is negligible, in other words so cheap for the amount of gaming you get, that it's not really worth taking into consideration.
I don't feel you are advancing faster than me because you have more time, because I measure the advance in terms of CONTENT completed.
How many mobs did you kill, how many quests did you complete?
It really doesn't matter to me if you killed those mobs and completed those quests in a day, a week, or a year.
I know that to get to level 25 you completed 50 quests and killed approximately 6K mobs.
IN a P2P game, there's no way to skip content. You can cheat by purchasing gold from gold farmers, but no game can stop all cheating.
ALL level 25 characters will do roughly the SAME content to get to the SAME place.
This makes the game feel fair to me, like all characters are on a level playing field.
I do not mind if you feel differently, if this does not feel "fair" to you. That's perfectly fine. If you feel a F2P game feels more "fair", or equally fair to P2P games, that's perfectly valid. If that's what you enjoy, by all means, play F2P games and enjoy them.
But I think you have to acknowledge that you cannot argue me into feeling that F2P is fair. I will either feel that it is, or I won't.
Similarly, I would not try to argue you into feeling a F2P game is unfair. If YOU feel it's fair, then for you, it is.
Most F2P MMO’s have PvP, so it is not just a matter of time and who gets to end level first. Paying for better items to win in PvP is as unfair as it gets.
F2P companies know that no matter how many items they have they can only create and sell new ones every so often, tempting players with the latest must have upgrades. So how do you create a regular income from PvP rather than a one dependent on new armour sets? Welcome to the world of cash shop temporary boosts, which give the edge in PvP that you need!
This is what I mean when I say that a microtransaction revenue model lends itself towards abusing customers, and finding more and more ways to milk them for extra cash. Rather than concentrate on making the game better so we want to play it, staff spend a lot of time thinking about how to make more money from the cash shop. This is the essential differance in design ethos that the revenue system creates.
Agreed. My concern is only in the few MMOs where I'm playing for the PVP, and then it's simply a matter of an item shop that does not allow a person to buy an IWIN button.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Personally I'm of the belief that any item, advancement, or otherwise player attainable 'thing' in an MMO should be acquired within the game, and only within the game. The moment something is "bought" or otherwise "obtained" through out of game means, then it cheapens the core game. This is especially so if said items are created on the fly, and even more so when they are exclusively obtained through out of game means.
It's a moneygrab, pure and simple. If I play a P2P game, I don't want content to be gated through out of game avenues, because I already pay my $15 a month that is meant to open all available content. But trading card games with bonus ingame items, item malls, and other promotional specialty items... eugh... that just ruins the feel of the game. Expansions of course are a completely different animal, and I am not expecting those to be free, even though some MMOs have no problem giving them away for free (EVE).
That is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on this board lately. You can't be competitive in pvp in Atlantica without extensive use of the item shop. Get higher in level before you make such rash judgements.
Item shops make pvp a joke, it is all about who spent more money on their character.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I consider expansions an exception because they are extensions of core game content. They unlock further progression, areas, and usually new game mechanics and/or concepts. They take a good deal of development to create, more so than a regular content patch, so their costs are more reasonable per the cost it took to create said content. Additionally, expansions do not dump 'achievements' in your lap the moment you purchase them, they simply open up new avenues of advancement, which you still have to play through to advance. Item shops on the other hand, you pay to instantly receive items/buffs/bonuses. Another thing that really bothers be about RMT is that the developers charge several dollars for things that cost a small investment to create initially, and cost virtually nothing to replicate infinitely, so they end up making a ridiculous profit on something that is arguably took very little to 'produce'.
Good points.
I can also understand the resentment of paying for an item that you feel cost little to make and nothing to reproduce. However, in a situation like that, it's more demand than anything else that justifies the price - people paying what they feel something is worth for an item they want or need.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Which would be all well and good except that many developers with item shops artificially create the need for certain item shop products.
Lower the rate of normal XP gain or increase the required amount of XP, then sell XP bonus potions, for example.
That is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on this board lately. You can't be competitive in pvp in Atlantica without extensive use of the item shop. Get higher in level before you make such rash judgements.
Item shops make pvp a joke, it is all about who spent more money on their character.
What if you don't pvp?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Item malls = fail and I refuse to support them.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Oh, how little you know me.
Small advantages are still advantages. It's not right, and it's not fair. End of story.
Let companies who want to make more money be up front and honest and just charge more per month.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Why?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
~and you are willing to pay more?
Let's be honest, the moment a sub rate rises you folk will be raising a bigger stink than when the CS forces you to buy oxygen.
Originally posted by Zekiah
Item malls = fail and I refuse to support them.
Originally posted by Rockgod99
Why?
Because it's cool to hate. There are people who hate CS without ever even had played an F2P game, people who hate botters/cheaters without having ever seen one, and people who refuse to play Eastern games because they are too grindy according to others. We are living in times where popular opinion mutates from lack of experience and blatant idiocy.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Why?
Because it creates game imbalance and greed. The player with the most cash wins and that's ridiculous. And if game companies are so greedy that they need to charge players for content (outside or instead of a monthly payment), I'm not going to play the game. Period.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
If you want to play a F2P game, money has to come from somewhere to support the game. Thus, it is good because it allows a game to keep running. Without it, you don't get to play the game.
DDO is a good example. I play it for a while and have fun. I would NOT have this fun if not for the item mall, which i did NOT use. The point of playing a MMO, like all other entertainment, is to have fun. I don't see how having an item mall in DDO will detract me from doing that. I go on adventures, kill mobs and get treasure. It does not defeat the purpose of running a dungeon.
And if someone buys some healing potions so that they can run the dungeon easier, it does not affect me.