While technology may be a factor, I think there's just not as much appeal as people believe. I like some of the points brought up earlier in this thread.
If more action-oriented combat, even a "FPS", was popular, why aren't DDO, AoC, Darkfall, Mortal Online, etc. the most popular?
I think we want strategy, too. But, if all we wanted was strategy, then wouldn't EVE reign? Of course.
So, there needs to be a mix. What is that mix? Skills and abilities. Especially positional and reactive abilities. For instance, instead of spamming 123, you need to move to attack most effectively (i.e. going behind or to the side of an enemy to use an attack), have abilities that are only available under certain circumstances (i.e. after a parry/block, after you build up a certain amount of "fury", etc). While it's not obviously as action-oriented as an, well, purely action-oriented combat system, it still requires paying attention.
Some people say, "I want my skill with aiming my mouse to make me the best". That's fine. But it'd really only remain fun in a heavily PvP game, and we all know how popular THOSE turn out to be.
I love to see MMOs reach the level of fighting game combat, but it's still lightyears away.
Anyway there is a number of MMOs with more hack and slash style combat, I'm suprised some haven't been mentioned (a few have):
Champions Online - Blocking, travel powers which can make things frantic, and the ability to dodge some abilities in real time.
Age of Conan - Blocking system, double tapping in directions granting brief buffs, sprinting, faster paced than most MMO combat, melee attacks deal splash damage, unique combat system for melee.
Darkfall - FPS magic and archery and hack and slash style combat.
Mortal Online - Same as Darkfall
Planetside - MMOFPS!
Tabula Rasa - Hybrid MMOFPS/RPG
Fallen Earth - Third person shooter style shooting
And a few others upcoming that will probably have elements of FPS or Hack and Slash:
All Points Bulletin (MMOFPS)
Mabinogi Heroes (has some interesting things like using the environment to your advantage)
Blade and Soul (trailer shows fighting-game style grappling and such, no clue if this will actually have a unique combat system or not)
The Secret World (rumor has it there is a targetting reticule so should incorporate some FPS style combat, using a modified AoC engine and promises some unique combat experience)
@ghost and champions: More buttons has nothing to do with the complexity of the combat. Shooters require far more skillful hands than it would take to play a MMO well. Someone slow with the mouse and keyboard with poor reflexes could play most MMOs almost as well as someone who is insanely good with one. Fighting games for instance typically only use 3-6 buttons, yet require some of most precise and dexterious movements out of any game.
Thank god all the people that say twitch based combat in a large scale combat are WRONG as surely as saying the Sun never sets. Which is ironic since this is mmorpg.com.
On console side we have MAG which has 256 players with realtime aim and no auto attack. Feels very good and is fun.
On MMO side we have Darkfall and Fallen Earth. Hell even Spellborn is a bit realtime.
Play more games guys.... So many people being so wrong is just bad form yo
check out blade and soul its far from ready and will only be korean version at first but they are going for exactly what you want google search it pretty amazing looking
Yea, I'm guessing it does take pretty heavy hardware for it to work for an MMORPG. Maybe in the next 5 or 10 years we could see something like this. Maybe if they made it REALLY simple... But then again, if they did that, you might as well be pressing 1 repeatedly instead of pressing 123.
I can't believe half the thread is still talking about Technology being alimiting factor, when:
Planetside did FPS-aiming in an MMO. ...in 2003. Darkfall did MMORPG gameplay with FPS-aiming. Last year.
I agree, tho I do use the technoligy excuse from time to time but with other factors, like people wanting a beautifull world created like Avatar movie/game into a MMORPG. < underlined a fully off-topic sentence with just something I admitted on having done.
Also I could be wrong but when I saw the clip OP posted I thought it was Age of Conan, while AoC has buttons you need to use for block and directional hits, it's how I see it being more hack and slash then OP saying there is none of that aswell the clip maker of OP's youtube clip. Including of course those game you and some also mention. Fallen Earth also has this hybrid combo of FPS style to it.
But I would become very bored if MMORPG would do a 1/2 mouse button only attack, thankfully I have tons of games in other genre's that do this and are enjoyeble to me, but for a MMORPG I love to let it remain in the RPG section may it be somewhat hybrid/leaning towards FPS style combat.
In Champion online you can set it up to work as a FPS but it do not work with all powers. tubeyou
No, that's not really the samething. You just using the cursor to point at the guy instead of tabbing. While the people that are tabbing are pwning you in pvp. I know I used to play that way with a controller.
But if that's good enough for the OP well maybe he should try it out. I thought he wanted realtime dodge and aim like Elder scrolls / Darkfall / Spellborn / Fallen earth / MAG has.
I agree, tho I do use the technoligy excuse from time to time but with other factors, like people wanting a beautifull world created like Avatar movie/game into a MMORPG.
I'm not sure even that is valid though.
Darkfall's engine is technically impressive (despite perhaps an overobsession with elaborate shadows which crush its framerate.) The graphics are pretty solid.
Sure, the art team isn't quite amazing and the textures are muddied down to a rather brownscale color scheme (which I think might be a conscious decision by their art+design team to allow the "realistic stealth" they were trying for.) But overall it's got a pretty excellent world going for it (the level design might not always be optimal for gameplay, but it's visually appealing.)
It's no Aion, but with an Aion-quality art team and less design decisions limiting the color schemes it could certainly be close.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Darkfall has all the features and no button mashing
I made this video last weeken click it played smoother than the video came out due to rendering for youtube (damn aspect ratios!). I got 15-40 fps in a siege involving hundreds and whilst running fraps, without fraps I'd have had no lag on my end. I'm running an AMD phenom II X3 720 BE and an ATI 5770 with 4 GB of RAM.
Seriously there are others out there with collision detection and all you mention but in my experience DFO does it best.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I,m just jaded as Im in Australia, who has just worked out they need to lay fibre optic over a very large and mostly empty country, and the 43 billion dollars is making everyone nervous, so in short gonna be 10 flaming year for Oz before decent cable quailty broadband gets done, maybe longer if some of the backward pollies who believe gamers are evil, and dial up is fine for emails have their way.
ugh, don't even get my started on that south Australia git or the bloody Governments broadband 'plan'
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Mount and Blade Warband allows for 64 players to be online fighting with and against one another. Oh and the game can run with low end systems that still use directX 7! Yeah...and as for latency issues. I can play on European servers very well, that is clean across the states and a frikking ocean!
Oh and quit saying Darkfalls combat is good. It is shallow compared to Mount and Blade. This is what irks me though. People saying that FPS melee is not possible for online games. Well Warband is proof that it can work. I would bet that it could support more players than it currently does even. I am amazed at how smooth the game is when there are so many people playing - especially during sieges with so many arrows and other objects flying around, along with horses and players and sometimes 50+ bots!
So to those that keep preaching the tech is not doable - you are clueless!
I dont mind the 1 2 3 of course unless your playing a Ret pally on WOW your probably using more buttons than that. What really needs to go is Auto Target and Auto hit. Keep the 12 year old after school warlock and pally players and whatnot from sitting in one spot spammng the 2 button and make them actually aim then you get down to a game of skill and timing. Hell in shooters you need what one button to shoot.
Agreed. We're seeing this a lot in future MMOs and there's even a couple of them out on the market, but I think Darkfall is the only real non-FPS MMO that's got a proper non-target system at the moment.
If you're a fan of fantasy MMORPGs I think you should keep your eyes out for TERA Online which is somewhat of an unkown game right now but I'm sure it'll gain more interest and hype once it gets close to release this year.
This is what it looks like from a melee character's perspective
Originally posted by championsFan Hey, while we are at it we should add some platform gaming style twitch elements to these MMOs. Who could forget the epic 4-stage raid on Wiley's castle in Megaman 2 ?
I can't say that I'm opposed to that idea either. Truth be told, the combat system isn't the problem with MMOs. The real problem is the monotony. Sure you've got the inventory management mini-game, the auction house stock market, exploration elements, but there needs to be even more variety than that. I like the idea of puzzles, but game guides on the web make these obsolete. That means that there needs to be some kind physical challenge, combat or otherwise, thrown in to mix things up. I also think that dialog trees with NPCs, or just turning the NPCs in specialized chat bots, would help break up the monotony a great deal and add some of that Bioware feel to these games.
Bottom line, there's quite a bit more that could be done with this genre but MMO developers are totally commited to "whach-A-mole" style gameplay.
The Oblivion combat system is so simple it's pitiful, I fail to understand why people bring it up as something to admire. There's one button for attack and one for block, it can be played on a NES controller, there is no hit directionality whatsoever, you don't 'control' your weapon in any meaningful way. Point at an enemy and click, attacks have like 3 animations. (the sidestep attack is hardly control considering it's just a different animation) Blocks are a yes or no toggle. (counts only if enemy is in front) In essence it's no different from Wolfenstein 3D. We are discussing the combat system here, do try to look past the pretty visuals.
If however you consider having to click on an enemy to hit a grand improvement then I digress. But I have to insist that that is simply a gimmick, an illusion of control. You still get the same static hit, every single time and the enemy is either hit, or not. Now a more complex and engaging system would involve a real exchange of blows, where swords would actually cross, where shields would actually deflect, blows actually hit. This, my friends, is beyond the, not so humble, mmo still.
Chronicles of Spellborn has this. It's gone from P2P to F2P to a pending release as F2P with cash shop. As a long time MMO player (EQ1 to WoW) I really enjoy having to aim my sword swings.
Reminds me of Gothic, the single player RPG. Best combat *ever*.
PlanetSide has had real-time true FPS combat since day one......
It's why I still play it occasionally....It's the only FPS that lets you fight with and against 500 people on-screen at once....And it has great vehicle and aircraft combat as well, and several support classes...
But no "target an enemy and the click on an attack button"...It's all point and shoot, and you better do it fast...
PlanetSide has had real-time true FPS combat since day one...... It's why I still play it occasionally....It's the only FPS that lets you fight with and against 500 people on-screen at once....And it has great vehicle and aircraft combat as well, and several support classes... But no "target an enemy and the click on an attack button"...It's all point and shoot, and you better do it fast...
Totally agree, Planetside for me was only spoiled by the BFR's ... but its still a fun game, now that there is only 1 server (USA) its fairly well populated too.. the few times i've played it (about 1 month ago) it was even busy prime time in the UK! ... any FPS mmo needs to be at least as good as Planetside.. hate to say it but.. i dont think GA is..
I'ma go ahead and bring up C9. It looks like it may bring an incredible combat system to the table, but it's sacrificing the "massive" nature of the game to be able to handle it. A sad trade-off, but I think Oblivion-style wasn't too intense to figure in without making huge sacrifices. Though I have yet to see a game where blocking, swinging and charging attacks meant something in MMO form. That is the hurdle in question.
Have you played C9 yet? I have, theres no incredible combat system, its the exact same thing as other games out there.
You'll have to es'plain then, because the vids I saw looked like an action game. Is it really automated?
(need visual proof on this one)
~btw, something I am looking for is a game with complex controls like Devil May Cry or something... call me a dreamer.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I am of the opinion that if you are going to do something you might as well do it right.
Oblivion just like Mount and Blade, Jedi Academy, and Darkfall, I think just have bad combat. It is shallow, and the control schemes do not fit melee combat.
The problem are things like
Shooter style controls: that is controls where WSAD are used for forward, back and straffing and the mouse is used to turn and look up and down. Some have directional attacks. But I don't think melee combat should have precise aiming, that isn't what melee combat is about really, aiming isn't something you should have to try to do.
I would rather see the controls be something like,
WSAD - move forward, right, left, back, notice I did not say turn or strafe, because I think if you press and hold D then you should face and move right in one motion, likewise if you do that while pressing attack you attack in that direction. Ti would be easier with an analog stick It think.
Mouse should be for rotating the camera, not character
Also the whole business with clicking and releasing to attack, that is aweful, melee should be as close to instant as the animation will allow, when you belabour attacks like that it does not have the energy of melee combat. So instead of directional attacks and precise aiming I think it should be about timing, rhythm, counters, maneuvering and keeping you field of vision open.
Here is what I consider really good melee combat, you could make it more realistic or totally crazy but it is the control scheme and the flow that needs work.
I think we all agree Arkham asylum was the shit, but the reason it worked is because it basically had auto-targeting. This falls under a couple rules I think we all understand.
If melee is mouse-aimed and click-initiated, then you are going to run in circles and not really time things.
If you don't have to worry about position and spamming, then you have time for timing and camera play.
I do believe melee is meant to be *watched* and play out by reading others telegraphing their moves - with out having to look for what icons pop up, including whatever is on your hotbar.
A good system was AoC's melee, but NOT it's reliance on combos that play out like mole-whacking. You spend too much time looking at windows and icons to actually look at whats going on. If the game was pure-melee based on the 5-point directional system, with combos being finished simply based on doing the combination, not preemptively arming it, then you'd have the world's greatest melee setup. Only problem is that it remains a bashfest with no sense of deflection and natural dodging/blocking.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I honestly dont understand the fascination with Mount and Blades combat.. The mounted combat is just " run around in circles shooting a bow or run in circles lining up melee attack " and on foot its no different than morrowind / oblivion / gothic.. Its just shallow. At least those games had content to go along with the shallow combat.. Mount and Blade is barren of it and the mods are all the same.
64v64 combat is nothing today.. DAoC had large keep and relic battles and Novalogic was the first to do 100v100 for a fps ( afiak with Joint Operations ).. Its pretty easy to do that stuff when there is very little graphical detail , little to no lighting effects and small color palettes ( JO looked good for its time though.. novalogic makes the best war games IMO ).
Comments
I can't believe half the thread is still talking about Technology being alimiting factor, when:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
While technology may be a factor, I think there's just not as much appeal as people believe. I like some of the points brought up earlier in this thread.
If more action-oriented combat, even a "FPS", was popular, why aren't DDO, AoC, Darkfall, Mortal Online, etc. the most popular?
I think we want strategy, too. But, if all we wanted was strategy, then wouldn't EVE reign? Of course.
So, there needs to be a mix. What is that mix? Skills and abilities. Especially positional and reactive abilities. For instance, instead of spamming 123, you need to move to attack most effectively (i.e. going behind or to the side of an enemy to use an attack), have abilities that are only available under certain circumstances (i.e. after a parry/block, after you build up a certain amount of "fury", etc). While it's not obviously as action-oriented as an, well, purely action-oriented combat system, it still requires paying attention.
Some people say, "I want my skill with aiming my mouse to make me the best". That's fine. But it'd really only remain fun in a heavily PvP game, and we all know how popular THOSE turn out to be.
Mabinogi Heroes
love the kick at 38sec
Benjamin Franklin wrote the best quote to use for MMOs in development.
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
I love to see MMOs reach the level of fighting game combat, but it's still lightyears away.
Anyway there is a number of MMOs with more hack and slash style combat, I'm suprised some haven't been mentioned (a few have):
Champions Online - Blocking, travel powers which can make things frantic, and the ability to dodge some abilities in real time.
Age of Conan - Blocking system, double tapping in directions granting brief buffs, sprinting, faster paced than most MMO combat, melee attacks deal splash damage, unique combat system for melee.
Darkfall - FPS magic and archery and hack and slash style combat.
Mortal Online - Same as Darkfall
Planetside - MMOFPS!
Tabula Rasa - Hybrid MMOFPS/RPG
Fallen Earth - Third person shooter style shooting
And a few others upcoming that will probably have elements of FPS or Hack and Slash:
All Points Bulletin (MMOFPS)
Mabinogi Heroes (has some interesting things like using the environment to your advantage)
Blade and Soul (trailer shows fighting-game style grappling and such, no clue if this will actually have a unique combat system or not)
The Secret World (rumor has it there is a targetting reticule so should incorporate some FPS style combat, using a modified AoC engine and promises some unique combat experience)
@ghost and champions: More buttons has nothing to do with the complexity of the combat. Shooters require far more skillful hands than it would take to play a MMO well. Someone slow with the mouse and keyboard with poor reflexes could play most MMOs almost as well as someone who is insanely good with one. Fighting games for instance typically only use 3-6 buttons, yet require some of most precise and dexterious movements out of any game.
Thank god all the people that say twitch based combat in a large scale combat are WRONG as surely as saying the Sun never sets. Which is ironic since this is mmorpg.com.
On console side we have MAG which has 256 players with realtime aim and no auto attack. Feels very good and is fun.
On MMO side we have Darkfall and Fallen Earth. Hell even Spellborn is a bit realtime.
Play more games guys.... So many people being so wrong is just bad form yo
check out blade and soul its far from ready and will only be korean version at first but they are going for exactly what you want google search it pretty amazing looking
Yea, I'm guessing it does take pretty heavy hardware for it to work for an MMORPG. Maybe in the next 5 or 10 years we could see something like this. Maybe if they made it REALLY simple... But then again, if they did that, you might as well be pressing 1 repeatedly instead of pressing 123.
This statement is false.
In Champion online you can set it up to work as a FPS but it do not work with all powers. tubeyou
Benjamin Franklin wrote the best quote to use for MMOs in development.
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
I agree, tho I do use the technoligy excuse from time to time but with other factors, like people wanting a beautifull world created like Avatar movie/game into a MMORPG. < underlined a fully off-topic sentence with just something I admitted on having done.
Also I could be wrong but when I saw the clip OP posted I thought it was Age of Conan, while AoC has buttons you need to use for block and directional hits, it's how I see it being more hack and slash then OP saying there is none of that aswell the clip maker of OP's youtube clip. Including of course those game you and some also mention. Fallen Earth also has this hybrid combo of FPS style to it.
But I would become very bored if MMORPG would do a 1/2 mouse button only attack, thankfully I have tons of games in other genre's that do this and are enjoyeble to me, but for a MMORPG I love to let it remain in the RPG section may it be somewhat hybrid/leaning towards FPS style combat.
No, that's not really the samething. You just using the cursor to point at the guy instead of tabbing. While the people that are tabbing are pwning you in pvp. I know I used to play that way with a controller.
But if that's good enough for the OP well maybe he should try it out. I thought he wanted realtime dodge and aim like Elder scrolls / Darkfall / Spellborn / Fallen earth / MAG has.
I'm not sure even that is valid though.
Darkfall's engine is technically impressive (despite perhaps an overobsession with elaborate shadows which crush its framerate.) The graphics are pretty solid.
Sure, the art team isn't quite amazing and the textures are muddied down to a rather brownscale color scheme (which I think might be a conscious decision by their art+design team to allow the "realistic stealth" they were trying for.) But overall it's got a pretty excellent world going for it (the level design might not always be optimal for gameplay, but it's visually appealing.)
It's no Aion, but with an Aion-quality art team and less design decisions limiting the color schemes it could certainly be close.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Darkfall has all the features and no button mashing
I made this video last weeken click it played smoother than the video came out due to rendering for youtube (damn aspect ratios!). I got 15-40 fps in a siege involving hundreds and whilst running fraps, without fraps I'd have had no lag on my end. I'm running an AMD phenom II X3 720 BE and an ATI 5770 with 4 GB of RAM.
Seriously there are others out there with collision detection and all you mention but in my experience DFO does it best.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
ugh, don't even get my started on that south Australia git or the bloody Governments broadband 'plan'
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Mount and Blade Warband allows for 64 players to be online fighting with and against one another. Oh and the game can run with low end systems that still use directX 7! Yeah...and as for latency issues. I can play on European servers very well, that is clean across the states and a frikking ocean!
Oh and quit saying Darkfalls combat is good. It is shallow compared to Mount and Blade. This is what irks me though. People saying that FPS melee is not possible for online games. Well Warband is proof that it can work. I would bet that it could support more players than it currently does even. I am amazed at how smooth the game is when there are so many people playing - especially during sieges with so many arrows and other objects flying around, along with horses and players and sometimes 50+ bots!
So to those that keep preaching the tech is not doable - you are clueless!
Agreed. We're seeing this a lot in future MMOs and there's even a couple of them out on the market, but I think Darkfall is the only real non-FPS MMO that's got a proper non-target system at the moment.
If you're a fan of fantasy MMORPGs I think you should keep your eyes out for TERA Online which is somewhat of an unkown game right now but I'm sure it'll gain more interest and hype once it gets close to release this year.
This is what it looks like from a melee character's perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03WIVBC41HM
Here's what it looks like from a ranged character's perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh6bZmC3IVQ
Some pvp and PK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DERBJo57mx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BlMqAUij9Q
Yada yada, you get it
I can't say that I'm opposed to that idea either. Truth be told, the combat system isn't the problem with MMOs. The real problem is the monotony. Sure you've got the inventory management mini-game, the auction house stock market, exploration elements, but there needs to be even more variety than that. I like the idea of puzzles, but game guides on the web make these obsolete. That means that there needs to be some kind physical challenge, combat or otherwise, thrown in to mix things up. I also think that dialog trees with NPCs, or just turning the NPCs in specialized chat bots, would help break up the monotony a great deal and add some of that Bioware feel to these games.
Bottom line, there's quite a bit more that could be done with this genre but MMO developers are totally commited to "whach-A-mole" style gameplay.
The Oblivion combat system is so simple it's pitiful, I fail to understand why people bring it up as something to admire. There's one button for attack and one for block, it can be played on a NES controller, there is no hit directionality whatsoever, you don't 'control' your weapon in any meaningful way. Point at an enemy and click, attacks have like 3 animations. (the sidestep attack is hardly control considering it's just a different animation) Blocks are a yes or no toggle. (counts only if enemy is in front) In essence it's no different from Wolfenstein 3D. We are discussing the combat system here, do try to look past the pretty visuals.
If however you consider having to click on an enemy to hit a grand improvement then I digress. But I have to insist that that is simply a gimmick, an illusion of control. You still get the same static hit, every single time and the enemy is either hit, or not. Now a more complex and engaging system would involve a real exchange of blows, where swords would actually cross, where shields would actually deflect, blows actually hit. This, my friends, is beyond the, not so humble, mmo still.
- Shijeer
Well Flyff is also a hack and slash one, but there's no movement/action that you can defend via shield.... Well, this game play is very cool..
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/Syreange/mysigcopy-1.jpg
Chronicles of Spellborn has this. It's gone from P2P to F2P to a pending release as F2P with cash shop. As a long time MMO player (EQ1 to WoW) I really enjoy having to aim my sword swings.
Reminds me of Gothic, the single player RPG. Best combat *ever*.
PlanetSide has had real-time true FPS combat since day one......
It's why I still play it occasionally....It's the only FPS that lets you fight with and against 500 people on-screen at once....And it has great vehicle and aircraft combat as well, and several support classes...
But no "target an enemy and the click on an attack button"...It's all point and shoot, and you better do it fast...
Totally agree, Planetside for me was only spoiled by the BFR's ... but its still a fun game, now that there is only 1 server (USA) its fairly well populated too.. the few times i've played it (about 1 month ago) it was even busy prime time in the UK! ... any FPS mmo needs to be at least as good as Planetside.. hate to say it but.. i dont think GA is..
Have you played C9 yet? I have, theres no incredible combat system, its the exact same thing as other games out there.
You'll have to es'plain then, because the vids I saw looked like an action game. Is it really automated?
(need visual proof on this one)
~btw, something I am looking for is a game with complex controls like Devil May Cry or something... call me a dreamer.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I am of the opinion that if you are going to do something you might as well do it right.
Oblivion just like Mount and Blade, Jedi Academy, and Darkfall, I think just have bad combat. It is shallow, and the control schemes do not fit melee combat.
The problem are things like
Shooter style controls: that is controls where WSAD are used for forward, back and straffing and the mouse is used to turn and look up and down. Some have directional attacks. But I don't think melee combat should have precise aiming, that isn't what melee combat is about really, aiming isn't something you should have to try to do.
I would rather see the controls be something like,
WSAD - move forward, right, left, back, notice I did not say turn or strafe, because I think if you press and hold D then you should face and move right in one motion, likewise if you do that while pressing attack you attack in that direction. Ti would be easier with an analog stick It think.
Mouse should be for rotating the camera, not character
Also the whole business with clicking and releasing to attack, that is aweful, melee should be as close to instant as the animation will allow, when you belabour attacks like that it does not have the energy of melee combat. So instead of directional attacks and precise aiming I think it should be about timing, rhythm, counters, maneuvering and keeping you field of vision open.
Here is what I consider really good melee combat, you could make it more realistic or totally crazy but it is the control scheme and the flow that needs work.
Example
Example
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I think we all agree Arkham asylum was the shit, but the reason it worked is because it basically had auto-targeting. This falls under a couple rules I think we all understand.
I do believe melee is meant to be *watched* and play out by reading others telegraphing their moves - with out having to look for what icons pop up, including whatever is on your hotbar.
A good system was AoC's melee, but NOT it's reliance on combos that play out like mole-whacking. You spend too much time looking at windows and icons to actually look at whats going on. If the game was pure-melee based on the 5-point directional system, with combos being finished simply based on doing the combination, not preemptively arming it, then you'd have the world's greatest melee setup. Only problem is that it remains a bashfest with no sense of deflection and natural dodging/blocking.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I honestly dont understand the fascination with Mount and Blades combat.. The mounted combat is just " run around in circles shooting a bow or run in circles lining up melee attack " and on foot its no different than morrowind / oblivion / gothic.. Its just shallow. At least those games had content to go along with the shallow combat.. Mount and Blade is barren of it and the mods are all the same.
64v64 combat is nothing today.. DAoC had large keep and relic battles and Novalogic was the first to do 100v100 for a fps ( afiak with Joint Operations ).. Its pretty easy to do that stuff when there is very little graphical detail , little to no lighting effects and small color palettes ( JO looked good for its time though.. novalogic makes the best war games IMO ).