Oh ya, streaming definitely has its drawbacks, and the ones you listed were just the general streaming challenges and not even the ones an MMO would cause.
The only other potential solution imho would be develop the ideal "game" as a Console-MMO that required a keyboard mouse ie FFXI/FFXIV.
The biggest problem with pushing for both is limiting who can play the game. Using a Console as a baseline, the developer can standardize the average performance of the experience, while still having a huge potential playerbase.
Hell, people still use PS2-Players to pull bosses in FFXI because they'll have the least latency to the server.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
yep op i agre with you !game maker are using very advanced graphic feature without dx11,microsoft donnybrook,64 bit the problem is this: the graphic of today are meant to be used with ALL of today techno and all the time the company say :oh its no big deal lets cut corner lets skip dx11,lets skip donnybrook,and lets stay 32 bit and then BOOM!crash !then the dev are like what the fuck if you are using 32 bit techno wich was dev in dx9 then, use nothing higher then dx9 or = technology same for graphic you dont add new graphic techno on those you got to use the graphic techno that was avail in say 2004. annoying yes but its crash free.can you say the same about your game of today i dont add ati 5770 on my 486 ibm computer ,neither should you as game dev if you want smooth game!
Dude like every post ive seen by you your talking about Donnybrook and 64bit. lol I agree 64 bit games need to start happening, it would if more people would just make the jump to 64bit os. Im finally running a 64bit os, I skipped out on Vista but Im happy with 64bit Win7.
But to be on topic. I like both, but I'm willing to sacrifice some graphics for gameplay. But I'm kinda jaded, because I can't even stand to look at Morrowind anymore even though that game kicked ass and Even Oblivion is showing its age in some aspects. Well mostly its character models, the faces look like soup. lol
Oh ya, streaming definitely has its drawbacks, and the ones you listed were just the general streaming challenges and not even the ones an MMO would cause.
The only other potential solution imho would be develop the ideal "game" as a Console-MMO that required a keyboard mouse ie FFXI/FFXIV. The biggest problem with pushing for both is limiting who can play the game. Using a Console as a baseline, the developer can standardize the average performance of the experience, while still having a huge potential playerbase. Hell, people still use PS2-Players to pull bosses in FFXI because they'll have the least latency to the server.
mm igot to say you are right and you dont know it!i ear ms has integrated donnybrook and we should see the result in
halo reach (undisclosed multiplayer feature)if this is true
xbox 360 will be ahead of computer mmo capacity by a long shot ,so dont be surprised if mmo industry go to xbox instead
will probably the best short term solution since ms fully help dev of game for xbox.
i was replying to this guy saying industry needed new innovation in programming and networking !its there lol ! as i sayid in my las post!
Innovation with games tends not to involve graphics. You keep spouting about DX11 that'll save us yay! Thats about all I can make out of your post no offense to your english since you most likely aren't a native english speaker but your not clear in the least. Regardless what I said stands you dont know anything about development or programming. You can't push to the newest technology unless you wish to have the small community possible playing your games so the millions you just spent on development get the flush when you can't pay the bills.
ok lets put dx11 aside then because yes it would be limiting for those that dont have it!but the rest like ms donnybrook and 64 bit
ms dk has been around since 2007 ,64 bit 2003.and aside from the need to be applied by game maker doesnt change anything on the player side.
I thought Donnybrook was just a research project? I read some of the published papers a couple of years ago, where they claimed not to have tested it other than in simulations and simple P2P fps games. Have they put it to use in anything resembling the complexity of an MMO yet?
It is entirely possible to have both. I don't see why making good gameplay should lead developers to choose a different graphics engine. Basically what your saying is that if you have good gameplay you have shitty graphics.
Why don't you think about what you are saying. Everquest II and World of Warcraft both had great gameplay and graphics when they were released. Don't blame new games coming out for bad gameplay based on the graphic engine they used. Blame them because you are so used to your old game that you want them to create a game that is similar, yet at the same time you yell at them to create something new.
I don't yell at FPS developers to create a new FPS where you use rocks instead of guns.
You shouldn't be able to have a list like this
-MUST HAVE DEATH PUNISHMENT
-MUST HAVE PLAYER TRADE ECONOMY
-MUST HAVE HUGE END GAME RAIDS
-MUST HAVE AMAZING PVE
-DONT CARE ABOUT PVP
-MUST HAVE LORE!
and then another persons list is
-MUST BE EASY
-MUST HAVE A BROKER
-MUST HAVE HARDCORE PVP
-NO PUNISHABLE DEATH SYSTEM
We are all different and you asking a game to fit ever persons opinion into one game. It's not gonna happen, just get a game play it and settle for the things you dislike.
i was replying to this guy saying industry needed new innovation in programming and networking !its there lol ! as i sayid in my las post!
Innovation with games tends not to involve graphics. You keep spouting about DX11 that'll save us yay! Thats about all I can make out of your post no offense to your english since you most likely aren't a native english speaker but your not clear in the least. Regardless what I said stands you dont know anything about development or programming. You can't push to the newest technology unless you wish to have the small community possible playing your games so the millions you just spent on development get the flush when you can't pay the bills.
ok lets put dx11 aside then because yes it would be limiting for those that dont have it!but the rest like ms donnybrook and 64 bit
ms dk has been around since 2007 ,64 bit 2003.and aside from the need to be applied by game maker doesnt change anything on the player side.
I thought Donnybrook was just a research project? I read some of the published papers a couple of years ago, where they claimed not to have tested it other than in simulations and simple P2P fps games. Have they put it to use in anything resembling the complexity of an MMO yet?
2006 or 07 year it was in testing in a modded version of quake III
but it is avail for free from ms .probably cost something for their engineer to help apply it to x,y,z game and give school on how to do it .but aside from that its ready!
Originally posted by drbaltazar 2006 or 07 year it was in testing in a modded version of unreal tournament or arena cant recall wich but it is avail for free from ms .probably cost something for their engineer to help apply it to x,y,z game and give school on how to do it .but aside from that its ready!
The newest published paper I could find was: research.microsoft.com/pubs/72879/donnybrook.pdf from 2008. The proposed use of heuristics is interesting, but wouldn't be possible to put to use directly for the server/client model typically used in MMOs. I just wondered if you had something newer you could link me to. I studied heuristics back in college 5 years ago, so would be interesting to read up on it again in an MMO context.
Both. For example, Dwarf Fortress sounds like a very solid game, but I cant play with those ASCII graphics. On the other end, there have been some mmos released lately with quite awesome graphics but terrible or "meh" gameplay. To me, both graphics and gameplay matters and I don't believe that they should have to cut corners on one to make up for the other.
Thank you. That just confirmed what I remember about Donnybrook, though. It reduces network traffic by replacing a lot of updates from other players by client-side AI. That works great for a P2P model, except that it's heaven for cheaters, but I fail to see how it's relevant to getting better graphics in MMOs. Persistant worlds need to have a lot of the information server side. You'll never communicate directly with other player's clients. Donnybrook can be used to reduce the amount of information transferred to each player and the frequency of updates, but similar techniques are used already. You don't get constant information updates about thousands of other players on your server, just the ones that are relevant. It can certainly be optimized more, but client side AI sounds like a poor solution to me at least.
Yes, it is. State of the art graphics requires a lot of objects on screen at any one time. If your computer is up to date, it will have no problem rendering all that. The problem is that in an MMO, what you see has to be synchronized with what everyone else sees, or it impacts gameplay. The server has to keep track of all objects with a state that can change, and keep all players within range updated. If you think about it, that means that while the strain on your computer hardware increases linearly with number of objects on screen, the strain on servers and networks increases exponentially with the number of players in your vicinity. The simpler objects in the game world, and interaction between objects are, the more you can have in an area at the same time.
So, having state of the arts graphics in an MMO means one, or several of: removing collision detection, making environmental effects client side, or reducing the number of players allowed in the same area at the same time (i.e. instancing). All of those have a negative impact on game play, so yes, to a certain extent, it's too much to ask for both.
Thanks Zyonne,
Your way more tech smart than I am
All I could think of in reading your reply is time and money. Some one call Bill Gates, he can aford it !
Gameplay. I don't really care about graphics, I played text-based games for years because I couldn't care less about eye-candy. Give me substance. Give me excellent mechanics. Give me freedom. Screw pixels dancing around on screen, it's entirely irrelevant to me.
IN MY OPINION, this is scary with 40% insisting on both. I'm not a programmer, in fact far from it, HOWEVER I'm a technician in electronics and mechanics, I fix things all my life. Ad to the fact that I'm sensible and just know whats going on in general. Several programmers on this post did give their input to prove as I suspected, that it's very very hard to do both with a lot of backing in what they say. MY OPINION is that making an offline game with all the graphics seems to be much easer than an mmo where you have interactivity with a community ( mmo ).
If developers are giving players what their asking for and taking the advice of the 40% that insist on high end graphics, then were doomed for the next few years, as technology catches up. We may have the technology now, but as it stands its wayyyy to expensive and the time involved will cause all short term future mmos to be half done, instanced, walls, and lack of content.
Sounds as if were doomed for at least half this decade if the deves are to prioritize graphics in MY OPINION for mmo's. I suspect that the 40% that voted for insisting on both graphics and game play at the same time are not technically advanced at all, and are the type must have it all with no sense of reality at least technically.
Thanks for helping me out in understanding the video game community, it's much of what I suspected, but now I have it in black and white.
Gameplay hands down. The best graphics in the world won't make a lousy game good, but I'll guarantee you that the number of people playing Bejeweled and Peggle far exceeds that of even WoW.
EQ, even with its dated graphics, still beats most modern MMO's hands down.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Comments
Oh ya, streaming definitely has its drawbacks, and the ones you listed were just the general streaming challenges and not even the ones an MMO would cause.
The only other potential solution imho would be develop the ideal "game" as a Console-MMO that required a keyboard mouse ie FFXI/FFXIV.
The biggest problem with pushing for both is limiting who can play the game. Using a Console as a baseline, the developer can standardize the average performance of the experience, while still having a huge potential playerbase.
Hell, people still use PS2-Players to pull bosses in FFXI because they'll have the least latency to the server.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
Dude like every post ive seen by you your talking about Donnybrook and 64bit. lol I agree 64 bit games need to start happening, it would if more people would just make the jump to 64bit os. Im finally running a 64bit os, I skipped out on Vista but Im happy with 64bit Win7.
But to be on topic. I like both, but I'm willing to sacrifice some graphics for gameplay. But I'm kinda jaded, because I can't even stand to look at Morrowind anymore even though that game kicked ass and Even Oblivion is showing its age in some aspects. Well mostly its character models, the faces look like soup. lol
mm igot to say you are right and you dont know it!i ear ms has integrated donnybrook and we should see the result in
halo reach (undisclosed multiplayer feature)if this is true
xbox 360 will be ahead of computer mmo capacity by a long shot ,so dont be surprised if mmo industry go to xbox instead
will probably the best short term solution since ms fully help dev of game for xbox.
Innovation with games tends not to involve graphics. You keep spouting about DX11 that'll save us yay! Thats about all I can make out of your post no offense to your english since you most likely aren't a native english speaker but your not clear in the least. Regardless what I said stands you dont know anything about development or programming. You can't push to the newest technology unless you wish to have the small community possible playing your games so the millions you just spent on development get the flush when you can't pay the bills.
ok lets put dx11 aside then because yes it would be limiting for those that dont have it!but the rest like ms donnybrook and 64 bit
ms dk has been around since 2007 ,64 bit 2003.and aside from the need to be applied by game maker doesnt change anything on the player side.
I thought Donnybrook was just a research project? I read some of the published papers a couple of years ago, where they claimed not to have tested it other than in simulations and simple P2P fps games. Have they put it to use in anything resembling the complexity of an MMO yet?
It is entirely possible to have both. I don't see why making good gameplay should lead developers to choose a different graphics engine. Basically what your saying is that if you have good gameplay you have shitty graphics.
Why don't you think about what you are saying. Everquest II and World of Warcraft both had great gameplay and graphics when they were released. Don't blame new games coming out for bad gameplay based on the graphic engine they used. Blame them because you are so used to your old game that you want them to create a game that is similar, yet at the same time you yell at them to create something new.
I don't yell at FPS developers to create a new FPS where you use rocks instead of guns.
You shouldn't be able to have a list like this
-MUST HAVE DEATH PUNISHMENT
-MUST HAVE PLAYER TRADE ECONOMY
-MUST HAVE HUGE END GAME RAIDS
-MUST HAVE AMAZING PVE
-DONT CARE ABOUT PVP
-MUST HAVE LORE!
and then another persons list is
-MUST BE EASY
-MUST HAVE A BROKER
-MUST HAVE HARDCORE PVP
-NO PUNISHABLE DEATH SYSTEM
We are all different and you asking a game to fit ever persons opinion into one game. It's not gonna happen, just get a game play it and settle for the things you dislike.
Everquest and Everquest 2 Veteran.
Innovation with games tends not to involve graphics. You keep spouting about DX11 that'll save us yay! Thats about all I can make out of your post no offense to your english since you most likely aren't a native english speaker but your not clear in the least. Regardless what I said stands you dont know anything about development or programming. You can't push to the newest technology unless you wish to have the small community possible playing your games so the millions you just spent on development get the flush when you can't pay the bills.
ok lets put dx11 aside then because yes it would be limiting for those that dont have it!but the rest like ms donnybrook and 64 bit
ms dk has been around since 2007 ,64 bit 2003.and aside from the need to be applied by game maker doesnt change anything on the player side.
I thought Donnybrook was just a research project? I read some of the published papers a couple of years ago, where they claimed not to have tested it other than in simulations and simple P2P fps games. Have they put it to use in anything resembling the complexity of an MMO yet?
2006 or 07 year it was in testing in a modded version of quake III
but it is avail for free from ms .probably cost something for their engineer to help apply it to x,y,z game and give school on how to do it .but aside from that its ready!
The newest published paper I could find was: research.microsoft.com/pubs/72879/donnybrook.pdf from 2008. The proposed use of heuristics is interesting, but wouldn't be possible to put to use directly for the server/client model typically used in MMOs. I just wondered if you had something newer you could link me to. I studied heuristics back in college 5 years ago, so would be interesting to read up on it again in an MMO context.
let me try to find the stream of it and the other info i gathered.ms keep it pretty quiet tho so i guess something is on the way that will use it!
Both. For example, Dwarf Fortress sounds like a very solid game, but I cant play with those ASCII graphics. On the other end, there have been some mmos released lately with quite awesome graphics but terrible or "meh" gameplay. To me, both graphics and gameplay matters and I don't believe that they should have to cut corners on one to make up for the other.
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Rory/Microsoft-Research-TechFest-Using-P2P-to-speed-up-multiplayer-gaming-and-other-things/
here is the video .they are nerd so just focus on the possibility!
Don't tell me what i cant have.
Thank you. That just confirmed what I remember about Donnybrook, though. It reduces network traffic by replacing a lot of updates from other players by client-side AI. That works great for a P2P model, except that it's heaven for cheaters, but I fail to see how it's relevant to getting better graphics in MMOs. Persistant worlds need to have a lot of the information server side. You'll never communicate directly with other player's clients. Donnybrook can be used to reduce the amount of information transferred to each player and the frequency of updates, but similar techniques are used already. You don't get constant information updates about thousands of other players on your server, just the ones that are relevant. It can certainly be optimized more, but client side AI sounds like a poor solution to me at least.
/thread
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
poster 64 :i couldnt mind less if its called donnybrook or other company,take linux there are lot of genious in there
but the fact is solution have to be found because right now we are limited in the 32 bit we are limited in the network
etc and we have to make do.
sorry about the confusion the graphic part of it pertain to the 32 bit limit vs 64 bit (2 gig to 3 gig)
If it's got pretty graphics, yet crappy gameplay. - No
If it's got awesome gameplay, yes crappy graphics. - No
In short, give me both please.
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
Yes, it is. State of the art graphics requires a lot of objects on screen at any one time. If your computer is up to date, it will have no problem rendering all that. The problem is that in an MMO, what you see has to be synchronized with what everyone else sees, or it impacts gameplay. The server has to keep track of all objects with a state that can change, and keep all players within range updated. If you think about it, that means that while the strain on your computer hardware increases linearly with number of objects on screen, the strain on servers and networks increases exponentially with the number of players in your vicinity. The simpler objects in the game world, and interaction between objects are, the more you can have in an area at the same time.
So, having state of the arts graphics in an MMO means one, or several of: removing collision detection, making environmental effects client side, or reducing the number of players allowed in the same area at the same time (i.e. instancing). All of those have a negative impact on game play, so yes, to a certain extent, it's too much to ask for both.
Thanks Zyonne,
Your way more tech smart than I am
All I could think of in reading your reply is time and money. Some one call Bill Gates, he can aford it !
Gameplay. I don't really care about graphics, I played text-based games for years because I couldn't care less about eye-candy. Give me substance. Give me excellent mechanics. Give me freedom. Screw pixels dancing around on screen, it's entirely irrelevant to me.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
52% voted for game play
40% voted for having both game play and Graphics
IN MY OPINION, this is scary with 40% insisting on both. I'm not a programmer, in fact far from it, HOWEVER I'm a technician in electronics and mechanics, I fix things all my life. Ad to the fact that I'm sensible and just know whats going on in general. Several programmers on this post did give their input to prove as I suspected, that it's very very hard to do both with a lot of backing in what they say. MY OPINION is that making an offline game with all the graphics seems to be much easer than an mmo where you have interactivity with a community ( mmo ).
If developers are giving players what their asking for and taking the advice of the 40% that insist on high end graphics, then were doomed for the next few years, as technology catches up. We may have the technology now, but as it stands its wayyyy to expensive and the time involved will cause all short term future mmos to be half done, instanced, walls, and lack of content.
Sounds as if were doomed for at least half this decade if the deves are to prioritize graphics in MY OPINION for mmo's. I suspect that the 40% that voted for insisting on both graphics and game play at the same time are not technically advanced at all, and are the type must have it all with no sense of reality at least technically.
Thanks for helping me out in understanding the video game community, it's much of what I suspected, but now I have it in black and white.
Gameplay hands down. The best graphics in the world won't make a lousy game good, but I'll guarantee you that the number of people playing Bejeweled and Peggle far exceeds that of even WoW.
EQ, even with its dated graphics, still beats most modern MMO's hands down.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin