Another aspect besides those that others have already mentioned that cuts down on the amount of info being communicated between client and server is the fact that EVE is point and click. Using WASD for movement sends an incredible amount of steaming info, which point and click really cuts down on it.
any knowledgable IT can say what the amount of data difference is between POINT AND CLIC VS WASD
it made me wonder ,in a game of chess WASD wouldnt send lot of data.but WASD in eve!now i begin to wonder ,since
on any week-end there is always more then a 1000 player in jita.
Ok, consider me to not be knowledgable in IT. And explain why WASD would make an incredible difference in the amount of data transfered. In a game of chess you don't move that much or frenetically, so that is not even in the discussion.
In both occations when you move both the server and clients will need to know where the opponent are.
It just doesnt need where you start and end location is. In both occations the other clients will need to know where you in short enough intervalls to be able to target, hit or any other means of interaction at the time of interaction. The client on the other side will need to know if you stopped, gained speed, changed direction just as fast in both types.
(Even in games that uses WASD the server is projecting your course, in games that make it seem like the other player is rubberbanding.)
I do need a resonable explanation on why there is an incredible difference in the amount of data sent.
I guess a good way to explain it would be:
Point and Click = point A to point b. server gets a starting and ending location. done.
WASD = this basically is a constant stream of information going back and forth from client to server. the server is constantly being updated as to the characters current position in order for it to maintain real-time movement the player inputs.
Point and click is just less data, which in turn means less server load.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
EVE is using IBM blade technology which simply means they have many thin computers (without cases) connected together like most mmorpgs do. These thin computers are the nodes of the Cluster. Here is a blade:
Here is a cluster:
Each column has many of these nodes and every column is connected to another and the communication time between nodes is too small. Also they have high bandwidth internet connection. Each player sends a packet to the cluster. If we assume that every packet is about 1 KByte of data and we have 50,000 players then they need to process about 50,000 Kbytes (48.828125 MBytes) every time. Even in our small computers we have cluster technology like 2 graphic cards work together or 4 cpu cores that try to simulate the same thing. But they don't add power together. For example 4 2.4 GHZ cpus doesn't mean that you may have a 4*2.4 CPU power. They just do load balancing and then they output the result to us in a way we think that it was output by a single processor. It's the duty of a programmer to take advantage of such power but unfortunatelly very few programs do so. All of the above are implemented using a special version of Python Language called Stackless Python. The question is why other mmorpgs don't do so. It's a matter of price and skills. EVE is the most massive mmorpg ever created.
one thing you forgot to mention is the ibm specific processor .last i heard they were 100 000 $ a copy just to control what you mentionned and more .yep those ibm toy i mention arent very comon im not even sure if intel make those!
Originally posted by drbaltazar instancing of various kind an name was uased by company for only one reason .because they are greedy not for their costumer benefit ,if game maker did anything for the customer benefit we would be all playing 64 bit game by now
C'mon you are not having whatever gigahertz... in your computer because of Microsoft Word.
Games have been the largest driving force when it comes to home computer capacity.
To simplify it. Now when we see more and more games to dedicated machines, like Xbox, you see this kind of computer surfacing.
And other peoples are connecting their netbooks to large monitors... and those are satisfied with the performance.
Shure the gamemaker would be all over 64bit by now if it would be worth it. But with all piracy and stuff infecting the market amongst other reasons perhaps. 64bit games on pc will be preceded by 64bit games on consoles or similar.
Oh, yeah, as mentioned. Instancing is done for the benefit of us the players.
i dont mind instancing per say !i do mind the extrem low player count per instance tho!
i by instance understand a copy of game world for each group of players like battlegrounds in wow or scenario in warhammer, many newbs think loading bar=instance that is called zone in old mmo's but on most of old mmo when u "zone" your pc load all the zone (usually a dungeon) but in eve you dont have that because you still have to load a grid
mm jita support 1700 player on that map (0 lag),we re not even talking about what they are installing yet they had to shut down
lot of server to work on those so theres a lag issue but its only till their 100 % of server is back online
whatever naysayer say as mmo server technology goes ccp is at the forfront paving the way for the mmo industry
they are the rule stick the industry and gamer will use to mesure other mmo!
Originally posted by drbaltazar one thing you forgot to mention is the ibm specific processor .last i heard they were 100 000 $ a copy just to control what you mentionned and more .yep those ibm toy i mention arent very comon im not even sure if intel make those!
If you have no fucking clue what you're talking of, just shut the hell up.
CCP is using blades. They have stated that they were using Wolfdales that they replaced their old Opterons with, and are now migrating to Nehalem Xeons.
They aren't uncommon either. Blades are a very popular choice for large server clusters..
Erm....Most open world games load grids of the overall environment. Most games also stream multiple levels of game detail through objects in the world. That's kinda what LOD is...
Ah, here we go.
"Each of EVE's 5000+ star systems is loaded as a separate process onto any one of hundreds of IBM blade servers, with some high-load systems being given a server all to themselves and many low-load systems being combined and run on servers together. These "SOL Servers" are tied into EVE's main database server where changes to the game take place (where the magic happens).
Since players need to move between solar systems, they are connected to proxy servers which keep track of which SOL server the player is on. It's an ambitious system but has worked well for over five years with constant upgrades going on in the background to keep up with the increasing number of players entering EVE daily."
That on it's own really isn't that innovative. WoW actually does a pretty similar thing, regrouping zones and instances across server stacks as the load increases and decreases.
In addition to this though, Eve uses stackless python, which takes out a major portion of the overhead dealing with system threads by operating without going through the operating system to avoid the switching between user and kernel, decreasing CPU activity and allowing more concurrent processes.
Eve is one of the few systems, and one of the only two games, I know of that uses that.
There's other things Eve has going for it as well. the game play isn't as intensive on the real time processing, allowing for deferred physics and pathing to handle the action aspects over something more active.
Fact is though, even if their game play was more active, their servers would still operate better than almost any other game.
I don't even like Eve, but that has entirely to do with personal preference in game play. Eve is a very well built game, and CCP is a dedicated and intelligent bunch of people that are great at innovating and improving on what they can.
Can't slight their ability to make a great game, even if I think it's boring. XD
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Originally posted by Deivos That on it's own really isn't that innovative. WoW actually does a pretty similar thing, regrouping zones and instances across server stacks as the load increases and decreases.
The only difference is the size of the cluster and obviously the underlying database is a monster. It's a miracle how well that works..recent problems aside, they managed to have a responsive database handling over 50k clients doing countless transactions all at once.
Originally posted by Deivos the game play isn't as intensive on the real time processing, allowing for deferred physics and pathing to handle the action aspects over something more active.
Yes and no. Eve has a lot of aoe effects which are computationally heavy, and fights tend to involve extreme amount of objects all interacting with each other. Just a simple bombing run on a fleet of 100 typically involves 8-16 aoe bombs hitting around 600 objects..in rapid succession. You can feel the lagspike if you pay attention, but in most fights before the lastest expansion the node would manage to simulate everything without major hicups.
one thing you forgot to mention is the ibm specific processor .last i heard they were 100 000 $ a copy just to control what you mentionned and more .yep those ibm toy i mention arent very comon im not even sure if intel make those!
If you have no fucking clue what you're talking of, just shut the hell up.
CCP is using blades. They have stated that they were using Wolfdales that they replaced their old Opterons with, and are now migrating to Nehalem Xeons.
They aren't uncommon either. Blades are a very popular choice for large server clusters..
dude listen to this video ,what i talk about is between the 12 minute
and 13 th minute i mnot too good in english but he does say 100 is thousand ,million ,or billion i dont understand him since he speak englsih about as good as me(grin)but its there if you can understand the exact number he say!
Aoe strikes aren't very different when you're talking about deferred physics, because the location of a player vessel and the attack has all ready been rolled well before rendering, and there shouldn't really be any problems associated with striking multiple targets unless they did something funky.
Guess there's always room for improvement?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
One thing that amazes me is the number of drones and missiles that has to be tracked in these large battles. It's like adding in a few hundred 'NPCs' to the mix.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
All ship movements, all missile paths, every single shot of every single gun (7-8/ship) of each ships, all drone movements and their gun shots, all aoe bombs and smartbombs, each buffs (like shield hardener and sensor boosters) and remote effects (like sensor damps and neuts) must be tracked and distributed to all and each of the parties of a 600 vs 600 battle. Enormous amount of information.
Another aspect besides those that others have already mentioned that cuts down on the amount of info being communicated between client and server is the fact that EVE is point and click. Using WASD for movement sends an incredible amount of steaming info, which point and click really cuts down on it.
any knowledgable IT can say what the amount of data difference is between POINT AND CLIC VS WASD
it made me wonder ,in a game of chess WASD wouldnt send lot of data.but WASD in eve!now i begin to wonder ,since
on any week-end there is always more then a 1000 player in jita.
Ok, consider me to not be knowledgable in IT. And explain why WASD would make an incredible difference in the amount of data transfered. In a game of chess you don't move that much or frenetically, so that is not even in the discussion.
In both occations when you move both the server and clients will need to know where the opponent are.
It just doesnt need where you start and end location is. In both occations the other clients will need to know where you in short enough intervalls to be able to target, hit or any other means of interaction at the time of interaction. The client on the other side will need to know if you stopped, gained speed, changed direction just as fast in both types.
(Even in games that uses WASD the server is projecting your course, in games that make it seem like the other player is rubberbanding.)
I do need a resonable explanation on why there is an incredible difference in the amount of data sent.
I guess a good way to explain it would be:
Point and Click = point A to point b. server gets a starting and ending location. done.
WASD = this basically is a constant stream of information going back and forth from client to server. the server is constantly being updated as to the characters current position in order for it to maintain real-time movement the player inputs.
Point and click is just less data, which in turn means less server load.
I find it hard to believe that a linear ground based path could be any more complex than a non-linear path where you can move in any direction, regardless of the control method.
Comments
any knowledgable IT can say what the amount of data difference is between POINT AND CLIC VS WASD
it made me wonder ,in a game of chess WASD wouldnt send lot of data.but WASD in eve!now i begin to wonder ,since
on any week-end there is always more then a 1000 player in jita.
Ok, consider me to not be knowledgable in IT. And explain why WASD would make an incredible difference in the amount of data transfered. In a game of chess you don't move that much or frenetically, so that is not even in the discussion.
In both occations when you move both the server and clients will need to know where the opponent are.
It just doesnt need where you start and end location is. In both occations the other clients will need to know where you in short enough intervalls to be able to target, hit or any other means of interaction at the time of interaction. The client on the other side will need to know if you stopped, gained speed, changed direction just as fast in both types.
(Even in games that uses WASD the server is projecting your course, in games that make it seem like the other player is rubberbanding.)
I do need a resonable explanation on why there is an incredible difference in the amount of data sent.
I guess a good way to explain it would be:
Point and Click = point A to point b. server gets a starting and ending location. done.
WASD = this basically is a constant stream of information going back and forth from client to server. the server is constantly being updated as to the characters current position in order for it to maintain real-time movement the player inputs.
Point and click is just less data, which in turn means less server load.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
one thing you forgot to mention is the ibm specific processor .last i heard they were 100 000 $ a copy just to control what you mentionned and more .yep those ibm toy i mention arent very comon im not even sure if intel make those!
C'mon you are not having whatever gigahertz... in your computer because of Microsoft Word.
Games have been the largest driving force when it comes to home computer capacity.
To simplify it. Now when we see more and more games to dedicated machines, like Xbox, you see this kind of computer surfacing.
http://event.asus.com/eeepc/microsites/eeebox/en/
And other peoples are connecting their netbooks to large monitors... and those are satisfied with the performance.
Shure the gamemaker would be all over 64bit by now if it would be worth it. But with all piracy and stuff infecting the market amongst other reasons perhaps. 64bit games on pc will be preceded by 64bit games on consoles or similar.
Oh, yeah, as mentioned. Instancing is done for the benefit of us the players.
i dont mind instancing per say !i do mind the extrem low player count per instance tho!
mm jita support 1700 player on that map (0 lag),we re not even talking about what they are installing yet they had to shut down
lot of server to work on those so theres a lag issue but its only till their 100 % of server is back online
whatever naysayer say as mmo server technology goes ccp is at the forfront paving the way for the mmo industry
they are the rule stick the industry and gamer will use to mesure other mmo!
If you have no fucking clue what you're talking of, just shut the hell up.
CCP is using blades. They have stated that they were using Wolfdales that they replaced their old Opterons with, and are now migrating to Nehalem Xeons.
They aren't uncommon either. Blades are a very popular choice for large server clusters..
Erm....Most open world games load grids of the overall environment. Most games also stream multiple levels of game detail through objects in the world. That's kinda what LOD is...
Ah, here we go.
"Each of EVE's 5000+ star systems is loaded as a separate process onto any one of hundreds of IBM blade servers, with some high-load systems being given a server all to themselves and many low-load systems being combined and run on servers together. These "SOL Servers" are tied into EVE's main database server where changes to the game take place (where the magic happens).
Since players need to move between solar systems, they are connected to proxy servers which keep track of which SOL server the player is on. It's an ambitious system but has worked well for over five years with constant upgrades going on in the background to keep up with the increasing number of players entering EVE daily."
That on it's own really isn't that innovative. WoW actually does a pretty similar thing, regrouping zones and instances across server stacks as the load increases and decreases.
In addition to this though, Eve uses stackless python, which takes out a major portion of the overhead dealing with system threads by operating without going through the operating system to avoid the switching between user and kernel, decreasing CPU activity and allowing more concurrent processes.
Eve is one of the few systems, and one of the only two games, I know of that uses that.
There's other things Eve has going for it as well. the game play isn't as intensive on the real time processing, allowing for deferred physics and pathing to handle the action aspects over something more active.
Fact is though, even if their game play was more active, their servers would still operate better than almost any other game.
I don't even like Eve, but that has entirely to do with personal preference in game play. Eve is a very well built game, and CCP is a dedicated and intelligent bunch of people that are great at innovating and improving on what they can.
Can't slight their ability to make a great game, even if I think it's boring. XD
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Yes and no. Eve has a lot of aoe effects which are computationally heavy, and fights tend to involve extreme amount of objects all interacting with each other. Just a simple bombing run on a fleet of 100 typically involves 8-16 aoe bombs hitting around 600 objects..in rapid succession. You can feel the lagspike if you pay attention, but in most fights before the lastest expansion the node would manage to simulate everything without major hicups.
If you have no fucking clue what you're talking of, just shut the hell up.
CCP is using blades. They have stated that they were using Wolfdales that they replaced their old Opterons with, and are now migrating to Nehalem Xeons.
They aren't uncommon either. Blades are a very popular choice for large server clusters..
http://www.youtube.com/user/CCPGAMES#p/c/E7A45268BF4505BC/23/q1yonpBi1y4
dude listen to this video ,what i talk about is between the 12 minute
and 13 th minute i mnot too good in english but he does say 100 is thousand ,million ,or billion i dont understand him since he speak englsih about as good as me(grin)but its there if you can understand the exact number he say!
Aoe strikes aren't very different when you're talking about deferred physics, because the location of a player vessel and the attack has all ready been rolled well before rendering, and there shouldn't really be any problems associated with striking multiple targets unless they did something funky.
Guess there's always room for improvement?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
One thing that amazes me is the number of drones and missiles that has to be tracked in these large battles. It's like adding in a few hundred 'NPCs' to the mix.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
yep !it is truelly impressive!
All ship movements, all missile paths, every single shot of every single gun (7-8/ship) of each ships, all drone movements and their gun shots, all aoe bombs and smartbombs, each buffs (like shield hardener and sensor boosters) and remote effects (like sensor damps and neuts) must be tracked and distributed to all and each of the parties of a 600 vs 600 battle. Enormous amount of information.
any knowledgable IT can say what the amount of data difference is between POINT AND CLIC VS WASD
it made me wonder ,in a game of chess WASD wouldnt send lot of data.but WASD in eve!now i begin to wonder ,since
on any week-end there is always more then a 1000 player in jita.
Ok, consider me to not be knowledgable in IT. And explain why WASD would make an incredible difference in the amount of data transfered. In a game of chess you don't move that much or frenetically, so that is not even in the discussion.
In both occations when you move both the server and clients will need to know where the opponent are.
It just doesnt need where you start and end location is. In both occations the other clients will need to know where you in short enough intervalls to be able to target, hit or any other means of interaction at the time of interaction. The client on the other side will need to know if you stopped, gained speed, changed direction just as fast in both types.
(Even in games that uses WASD the server is projecting your course, in games that make it seem like the other player is rubberbanding.)
I do need a resonable explanation on why there is an incredible difference in the amount of data sent.
I guess a good way to explain it would be:
Point and Click = point A to point b. server gets a starting and ending location. done.
WASD = this basically is a constant stream of information going back and forth from client to server. the server is constantly being updated as to the characters current position in order for it to maintain real-time movement the player inputs.
Point and click is just less data, which in turn means less server load.
I find it hard to believe that a linear ground based path could be any more complex than a non-linear path where you can move in any direction, regardless of the control method.
Edited for: Early morning sleepiness ramblings